We NEED to respond ASAP - 60 days

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FYI Despite my already signing the petition and sending in comments in support of you guys, the ACR just put out a press release. Apparently this rule change would also allow NPs to interpret imaging.

Feel free to include the fact that we do 10 years of training post college (rads is 1 + 4 + 1) to interpret imaging if you really want to make physicians look better.

http://www.acr.org/About-Us/Media-C...-on-VA-Advanced-Practice-Nurses-Proposed-Rule

http://www.auntminnie.com/index.aspx?sec=sup&sub=imc&pag=dis&ItemID=114347
 
FYI Despite my already signing the petition and sending in comments in support of you guys, the ACR just put out a press release. Apparently this rule change would also allow NPs to interpret imaging.

Feel free to include the fact that we do 10 years of training post college (rads is 1 + 4 + 1) to interpret imaging if you really want to make physicians look better.

http://www.acr.org/About-Us/Media-C...-on-VA-Advanced-Practice-Nurses-Proposed-Rule

http://www.auntminnie.com/index.aspx?sec=sup&sub=imc&pag=dis&ItemID=114347

Please tell me this is a joke. Half the time they don't even know which view to order or which type of study for that matter. AND, how is this going to work? An NP will interpret and make a clinical decision and then a radiologist will eventually get to interpreting the image (what by night hawk?) and who will be responsible for making sure the patient's care changes based on the interpretation? Will that now fall to radiologists?! Since they are MDs and the NPs aren't, will the liability fall on the MD? WTF.
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Please tell me this is a joke. Half the time they don't even know which view to order or which type of study for that matter. AND, how is this going to work? An NP will interpret and make a clinical decision and then a radiologist will eventually get to interpreting the image (what by night hawk?) and who will be responsible for making sure the patient's care changes based on the interpretation? Will that now fall to radiologists?! Since they are MDs and the NPs aren't, will the liability fall on the MD? WTF.

...I've met NPs who didn't know which side was right or left on imaging
 
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They can Google it.

Yes but the fact that they don't speaks to a lack of intellectual curiosity that someone practicing medicine should have. Everything is googleable. But not everyone is facile with information and able to apply it to practical patient care.
 
Yes but the fact that they don't speaks to a lack of intellectual curiosity that someone practicing medicine should have. Everything is googleable. But not everyone is facile with information and able to apply it to practical patient care.
I was being sarcastic.
 
i commented 4 times this weekend.. every one reading this should as well
 
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Just so that people don't forget. The open comment period is still running. Please comment.

#Safevacare

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Please tell me this is a joke. Half the time they don't even know which view to order or which type of study for that matter. AND, how is this going to work? An NP will interpret and make a clinical decision and then a radiologist will eventually get to interpreting the image (what by night hawk?) and who will be responsible for making sure the patient's care changes based on the interpretation? Will that now fall to radiologists?! Since they are MDs and the NPs aren't, will the liability fall on the MD? WTF.

There is no liability at a VA. This VA thing will provide a nice experiment that hospital CEOs will watch very closely.
 
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There is no liability at a VA. This VA thing will provide a nice experiment that hospital CEOs will watch very closely.

There is liability at the VA but not much in terms of dollars. If the family or patient brings a lawsuit they end up in Federal Court suing the US government. Awards are low and cases drag on for years.
 
There is liability at the VA but not much in terms of dollars. If the family or patient brings a lawsuit they end up in Federal Court suing the US government. Awards are low and cases drag on for years.

Obviously there is some liability, but there are not many malpractice attorneys willing to take on the US government. It would have to be something BIG...like a system wide negligence. The risk in the VA system is much much less for anyone providing healthcare. This is why it provides a good experiment of letting midlevels run wild. If in 5 or 10 years, there are no big differences in morbidity and mortality then CEOs at other hospitals may be willing to take the risk of letting midlevels off their leash.
 
Obviously there is some liability, but there are not many malpractice attorneys willing to take on the US government. It would have to be something BIG...like a system wide negligence. The risk in the VA system is much much less for anyone providing healthcare. This is why it provides a good experiment of letting midlevels run wild. If in 5 or 10 years, there are no big differences in morbidity and mortality then CEOs at other hospitals may be willing to take the risk of letting midlevels off their leash.

Even if there were a difference in morbidity/mortality, do you really trust the government (or any organization for that matter) to A) look for that information, B) publicize that information once they have it?
 
Members don't see this ad :)
Someone please explain how there are only 15,000 signatures on this docket and yet there are over 900,000 physicians in the US? and millions of people in America... We can get over 2 million signatures on change.org supporting trayvon martin and only 15,000 regarding this. Pathetic.

PS have you heard of dental practitioners?

http://khn.org/news/kansas-dental-practitioners/
 
Even if there were a difference in morbidity/mortality, do you really trust the government (or any organization for that matter) to A) look for that information, B) publicize that information once they have it?

The problem is even if this information was readily available, I don't think you would find huge differences in morbidity/mortality. They would only be looking for large events, which would still be rare even if a midlevel was practicing alone. Just using our speciality as an example, anesthesia has been made pretty damn dummy proof. It is hard to kill a patient. You would really have to look more closely to find differences between midlevels and physicians. Those differences may not be enough to offset the cost savings to a hospital that would come from a much larger supply of "practitioners" on the market for the same job. The hospital can now justify paying everyone at an even lower rate and scoop more off the top.

The even scarier outcome would be that independent midlevels would appear to perform better than physicians. Midlevels are groomed from day 1 to love protocols. Doctors inherently hate protocols. These protocols will produce benchmarks and metrics that will be used to compare midlevel care vs physician-directed care. The midlevels may have an easier time hitting those benchmarks and thus proving what the suits wanted all along.

Don't fool yourself for one minute in thinking that these hospitals care at all about real patients and real outcomes. A patient is just a number or commodity to these corporations. A "practitioner" is just a means to an end. You are a cog in a (broken) system. By allowing any old "practitioner" to practice medicine, you flood the market with a huge supply and drive that cost down. This is a very calculated step in doing that. It may take 5-10 years, but it is coming. Even if this VA thing doesn't pass this time around, it is only a matter of time until it does pass.
 
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Someone please explain how there are only 15,000 signatures on this docket and yet there are over 900,000 physicians in the US? and millions of people in America... We can get over 2 million signatures on change.org supporting trayvon martin and only 15,000 regarding this. Pathetic.

PS have you heard of dental practitioners?

http://khn.org/news/kansas-dental-practitioners/

What is it with people and trying to cheap out on healthcare? When physician salaries aren't even keeping up with inflation and yet healthcare costs keep going up, maybe there's a reason for that.

The problem is even if this information was readily available, I don't think you would find huge differences in morbidity/mortality. They would only be looking for large events, which would still be rare even if a midlevel was practicing alone. Just using our speciality as an example, anesthesia has been made pretty damn dummy proof. It is hard to kill a patient. You would really have to look more closely to find differences between midlevels and physicians. Those differences may not be enough to offset the cost savings to a hospital that would come from a much larger supply of "practitioners" on the market for the same job. The hospital can now justify paying everyone at an even lower rate and scoop more off the top.

The even scarier outcome would be that independent midlevels would appear to perform better than physicians. Midlevels are groomed from day 1 to love protocols. Doctors inherently hate protocols. These protocols will produce benchmarks and metrics that will be used to compare midlevel care vs physician-directed care. The midlevels may have an easier time hitting those benchmarks and thus proving what the suits wanted all along.

Don't fool yourself for one minute in thinking that these hospitals care at all about real patients and real outcomes. A patient is just a number or commodity to these corporations. A "practitioner" is just a means to an end. You are a cog in a (broken) system. By allowing any old "practitioner" to practice medicine, you flood the market with a huge supply and drive that cost down. This is a very calculated step in doing that. It may take 5-10 years, but it is coming. Even if this VA thing doesn't pass this time around, it is only a matter of time until it does pass.

I just want to earn enough money for financial independence before the end game is implemented
 
post it on your facebook page and urge people to comment on the darn thing.. do it every day.. get on the phone

I signed this today, though I'm in a different specialty (derm). Although derm is at a much earlier stage than anesthesiology in terms of midlevel encroachment it bears many of the early similar trajectories (as with all specialties) - many greedy dermatologists training midlevels to make money, some of which try to go out and practice on their own with no supervision.

AAD seems to have some inkling though and is trying to fight it early:

https://www.aad.org/members/member-benefits/dermcare-team/what-is-the-dermcare-team



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I came across this forum while doing a project for my advanced practice nursing degree about the pros and cons of independent practice for advanced practice nurses. While some of you appear to be offering what could be viewed as valid concerns, others are absolutely clueless about what nurses do and blatantly rude in your assumptions.

One commenter, Gravlrider, mentioned that nurses are just butt-wipers that sit around and gossip with other butt-wipers. Wow, it's amazing that with all that education, you can't even look far enough down your own nose to distinguish the difference between a nursing assistant who receives TWO WEEKS of education and a registered nurse with 3-5 years of education! If a registered nurse is wiping a butt, it is because she is a team player who is not too good to help the "lowly" nursing assistant.

It's these kinds of attitudes that have put physicians and nurses at odds with each other. Maybe if physicians hadn't been so arrogant for so long, the concept of a team approach would be business as usual and all you physicians and physicians in training wouldn't have to be lamenting the potential loss of your ridiculously high salaries and positions of power.

Speaking of which, there are many on here who have commented about their time at the VA when the anesthesiologist basically sat in an office all day long while the CRNA did all the work with the patients. So, essentially, if this is true, all the VA is doing is making the current status quo official?!? Furthermore, if this is true, how can you assert that the quality of care will decrease when CRNAs have been providing the care for quite some time already? If this is the case, then the quality of care will remain the same! Also, if this is the case, then all your complaints basically amount to a reaction to a potential loss of POWER AND POSITION and not to any real concerns about veterans!

BTW, I am a veteran and an advance practice nursing student and I am unimpressed by your appeals on behalf of veterans. I absolutely see through them!

Finally, I would challenge any one of you on this forum to come up with some actual EVIDENCE that APRNs are inferior care providers to physicians. You know, scholarly studies. So far, all I have heard are opinions. In my research, I have come across a number of studies indicating the opposite to be true. The Institute of Medicine conducted its own study and concluded that APRNs provide safe and effective care and recommended that APRNs be allowed to practice to the full extent of their scope of practice in all states! Once I am further along in my project, I would be happy to return to this forum and post links to the studies I have perused if any of you are interested in actually knowing the truth.
 
Who needs 3-5 years to study "nursing", except doctor wannabes? RNs are overqualified for their jobs, and APRNs are under-.
 
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I came across this forum while doing a project for my advanced practice nursing degree about the pros and cons of independent practice for advanced practice nurses. While some of you appear to be offering what could be viewed as valid concerns, others are absolutely clueless about what nurses do and blatantly rude in your assumptions.

One commenter, Gravlrider, mentioned that nurses are just butt-wipers that sit around and gossip with other butt-wipers. Wow, it's amazing that with all that education, you can't even look far enough down your own nose to distinguish the difference between a nursing assistant who receives TWO WEEKS of education and a registered nurse with 3-5 years of education! If a registered nurse is wiping a butt, it is because she is a team player who is not too good to help the "lowly" nursing assistant.

It's these kinds of attitudes that have put physicians and nurses at odds with each other. Maybe if physicians hadn't been so arrogant for so long, the concept of a team approach would be business as usual and all you physicians and physicians in training wouldn't have to be lamenting the potential loss of your ridiculously high salaries and positions of power.

Speaking of which, there are many on here who have commented about their time at the VA when the anesthesiologist basically sat in an office all day long while the CRNA did all the work with the patients. So, essentially, if this is true, all the VA is doing is making the current status quo official?!? Furthermore, if this is true, how can you assert that the quality of care will decrease when CRNAs have been providing the care for quite some time already? If this is the case, then the quality of care will remain the same! Also, if this is the case, then all your complaints basically amount to a reaction to a potential loss of POWER AND POSITION and not to any real concerns about veterans!

BTW, I am a veteran and an advance practice nursing student and I am unimpressed by your appeals on behalf of veterans. I absolutely see through them!

Finally, I would challenge any one of you on this forum to come up with some actual EVIDENCE that APRNs are inferior care providers to physicians. You know, scholarly studies. So far, all I have heard are opinions. In my research, I have come across a number of studies indicating the opposite to be true. The Institute of Medicine conducted its own study and concluded that APRNs provide safe and effective care and recommended that APRNs be allowed to practice to the full extent of their scope of practice in all states! Once I am further along in my project, I would be happy to return to this forum and post links to the studies I have perused if any of you are interested in actually knowing the truth.

Huh, the projects I'm doing involve actual science to further our understanding of medicine but I guess all this advanced practice nurses vs doctors nonsense that nurses are fixated on is real useful too. Sounds like it takes actual effort to be that bad at research.

It's really sad that nurses are taught to see good patient care as below them and that it should be the role of the nursing assistant. Maybe if they didn't sit in the nurses station all day then patients wouldn't need nursing assistants to take care of them. Butt wiping properly is actually pretty darn important. Does it really take 3-5 years to inculcate all this anti-nursing propaganda into new nurses?
 
I came across this forum while doing a project for my advanced practice nursing degree about the pros and cons of independent practice for advanced practice nurses. While some of you appear to be offering what could be viewed as valid concerns, others are absolutely clueless about what nurses do and blatantly rude in your assumptions.

One commenter, Gravlrider, mentioned that nurses are just butt-wipers that sit around and gossip with other butt-wipers. Wow, it's amazing that with all that education, you can't even look far enough down your own nose to distinguish the difference between a nursing assistant who receives TWO WEEKS of education and a registered nurse with 3-5 years of education! If a registered nurse is wiping a butt, it is because she is a team player who is not too good to help the "lowly" nursing assistant.

It's these kinds of attitudes that have put physicians and nurses at odds with each other. Maybe if physicians hadn't been so arrogant for so long, the concept of a team approach would be business as usual and all you physicians and physicians in training wouldn't have to be lamenting the potential loss of your ridiculously high salaries and positions of power.

Speaking of which, there are many on here who have commented about their time at the VA when the anesthesiologist basically sat in an office all day long while the CRNA did all the work with the patients. So, essentially, if this is true, all the VA is doing is making the current status quo official?!? Furthermore, if this is true, how can you assert that the quality of care will decrease when CRNAs have been providing the care for quite some time already? If this is the case, then the quality of care will remain the same! Also, if this is the case, then all your complaints basically amount to a reaction to a potential loss of POWER AND POSITION and not to any real concerns about veterans!

BTW, I am a veteran and an advance practice nursing student and I am unimpressed by your appeals on behalf of veterans. I absolutely see through them!

Finally, I would challenge any one of you on this forum to come up with some actual EVIDENCE that APRNs are inferior care providers to physicians. You know, scholarly studies. So far, all I have heard are opinions. In my research, I have come across a number of studies indicating the opposite to be true. The Institute of Medicine conducted its own study and concluded that APRNs provide safe and effective care and recommended that APRNs be allowed to practice to the full extent of their scope of practice in all states! Once I am further along in my project, I would be happy to return to this forum and post links to the studies I have perused if any of you are interested in actually knowing the truth.

I don't come and piss in your sandbox, so why'd you do it in mine?


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I came across this forum while doing a project for my advanced practice nursing degree about the pros and cons of independent practice for advanced practice nurses. While some of you appear to be offering what could be viewed as valid concerns, others are absolutely clueless about what nurses do and blatantly rude in your assumptions.

One commenter, Gravlrider, mentioned that nurses are just butt-wipers that sit around and gossip with other butt-wipers. Wow, it's amazing that with all that education, you can't even look far enough down your own nose to distinguish the difference between a nursing assistant who receives TWO WEEKS of education and a registered nurse with 3-5 years of education! If a registered nurse is wiping a butt, it is because she is a team player who is not too good to help the "lowly" nursing assistant.

It's these kinds of attitudes that have put physicians and nurses at odds with each other. Maybe if physicians hadn't been so arrogant for so long, the concept of a team approach would be business as usual and all you physicians and physicians in training wouldn't have to be lamenting the potential loss of your ridiculously high salaries and positions of power.

Speaking of which, there are many on here who have commented about their time at the VA when the anesthesiologist basically sat in an office all day long while the CRNA did all the work with the patients. So, essentially, if this is true, all the VA is doing is making the current status quo official?!? Furthermore, if this is true, how can you assert that the quality of care will decrease when CRNAs have been providing the care for quite some time already? If this is the case, then the quality of care will remain the same! Also, if this is the case, then all your complaints basically amount to a reaction to a potential loss of POWER AND POSITION and not to any real concerns about veterans!

BTW, I am a veteran and an advance practice nursing student and I am unimpressed by your appeals on behalf of veterans. I absolutely see through them!

Finally, I would challenge any one of you on this forum to come up with some actual EVIDENCE that APRNs are inferior care providers to physicians. You know, scholarly studies. So far, all I have heard are opinions. In my research, I have come across a number of studies indicating the opposite to be true. The Institute of Medicine conducted its own study and concluded that APRNs provide safe and effective care and recommended that APRNs be allowed to practice to the full extent of their scope of practice in all states! Once I am further along in my project, I would be happy to return to this forum and post links to the studies I have perused if any of you are interested in actually knowing the truth.

So by your logic, we should just let the stewardess fly the plane because we all know they're doing all the work, handing out drinks, tending to each passenger's every need, showing us how to use the barf bags and masks. Nobody can really prove that they can't fly the plane safely...it's on autopilot most of the flight anyway, should be totally fine.
Actually, the PA opened, closed, and harvested the vein for my case today. Hell we should just let him go ahead and do the whole surgery next time. Nobody can prove how unsafe that would be with scholarly studies so again, totally fine.
Is this really the level of intellectual prowess required to be an advanced practice nurse these days?
 
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Mid level madness is so out of control. I am scared about my veteran father some day being in a position to place his life in the hands of one of these over-confident and arrogant nurses who would rather pretend to know what they are doing at the expense of the patient rather than accept the needed guidance of a physician. When I need tips on whether to wipe the right cheek or left cheek off first, I will humbly defer to my nursing colleagues whose expertise is far greater in this area.

What I will never do is show respect for someone who wants to provide anesthesia without accepting the responsibility of seeking out the best and most comprehensive training available before having the audacity to induce an iatrogenic coma on patients who are ignorant of the true risks and hazards of our profession. CRNA's lack clinical judgement. Their training is too short and they leave ill equipped to diagnose and manage acute disease that manifests in the OR. Medical school and residency teach a mindset and a way of thinking that I have never seen replicated in nurses, regardless of where and how they trained. The ones with the most letters stacked up behind their name walk around with such a big chip on their shoulder, like the poster here. That mindset is really dangerous and impacts patient safety in a pervasive and real way. Nursing and nurse practitioner notes are largely void of useful information and there is never any consideration of a thorough differential diagnosis or assessment of the patient, it is all a copy and paste piece of garbage. While anyone can develop rudimentary muscle memory and perform basic procedures by sheer repetition, only a physician among all healthcare providers is trained to think critically about medical science and apply an evidence based approach to the unique situation of each individual patient.

My mother and aunt are nurses, my grandmother was a nurse, and I have great respect for the vast majority of nurses who focus on excellent care of their patients. Anyone who sets out to advance a selfish personal agenda that jeopardizes patient care by trying to restrict access to physician-level assessment and treatment is a disgrace to our medical system.
 
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I agree that the mid-level madness is getting out of control, and I think this whole CRNA thing is the most absurd one. I can't tell you how many times I asked CRNA questions about the care/physiology/pharmacology of the patients and they don't seem to know how to explain it or what they did. I've noticed that a lot of the CRNAs just "DO THINGS" like a technician but can't really tell you WHY certain adjustments are being done. I'm sure there are some less well trained anesthesiologists who are like that out there and that is really dangerous. We aren't being trained as a "technician" or to just blindly follow the protocols!

3 more days left until the Public Comment period to the VA is over: http://www.safevacare.org/
 
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Mid level madness is so out of control. I am scared about my veteran father some day being in a position to place his life in the hands of one of these over-confident and arrogant nurses who would rather pretend to know what they are doing at the expense of the patient rather than accept the needed guidance of a physician. When I need tips on whether to wipe the right cheek or left cheek off first, I will humbly defer to my nursing colleagues whose expertise is far greater in this area.

What I will never do is show respect for someone who wants to provide anesthesia without accepting the responsibility of seeking out the best and most comprehensive training available before having the audacity to induce an iatrogenic coma on patients who are ignorant of the true risks and hazards of our profession. CRNA's lack clinical judgement. Their training is too short and they leave ill equipped to diagnose and manage acute disease that manifests in the OR. Medical school and residency teach a mindset and a way of thinking that I have never seen replicated in nurses, regardless of where and how they trained. The ones with the most letters stacked up behind their name walk around with such a big chip on their shoulder, like the poster here. That mindset is really dangerous and impacts patient safety in a pervasive and real way. Nursing and nurse practitioner notes are largely void of useful information and there is never any consideration of a thorough differential diagnosis or assessment of the patient, it is all a copy and paste piece of garbage. While anyone can develop rudimentary muscle memory and perform basic procedures by sheer repetition, only a physician among all healthcare providers is trained to think critically about medical science and apply an evidence based approach to the unique situation of each individual patient.

My mother and aunt are nurses, my grandmother was a nurse, and I have great respect for the vast majority of nurses who focus on excellent care of their patients. Anyone who sets out to advance a selfish personal agenda that jeopardizes patient care by trying to restrict access to physician-level assessment and treatment is a disgrace to our medical system.

AMEN.
They have started posting their filth in the ASA's Facebook page in the reviews section.
 
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Why don't we allow patients to choose? People choose their other physicians, let them choose their anesthesia provider. If you outline the risks of anesthesia, I'd imagine few, if any, people would choose CRNA.


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Why don't we allow patients to choose? People choose their other physicians, let them choose their anesthesia provider. If you outline the risks of anesthesia, I'd imagine few, if any, people would choose CRNA.
This might cut in more ways than you would want, including most people deferring to surgeons in choosing their provider. Which will make our specialty a servant (sic!) specialty once and forever.
 
Why don't we allow patients to choose? People choose their other physicians, let them choose their anesthesia provider. If you outline the risks of anesthesia, I'd imagine few, if any, people would choose CRNA.


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I wouldn't imagine that. Never underestimate the stupidity of the general population.
 
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People are just happy to see almost anyone anything. Remember it's the VA. It's about "access". It's a great selling point for Advanced practicing nurses to argue for advancement of their "inherent skills".

As long as it isn't costing them "money" and presents them more "access". It's a point the public will buy into hook line and sinker.
 
If you outline the risks of anesthesia, I'd imagine few, if any, people would choose CRNA.


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Interesting point. I'm sure most here are like me and use the spiel about "going off to sleep" with the main risk being a sore throat instead of using verbiage more along the lines of coma and non-zero risk of fatal allergic reaction/bronchospasm/cardiac arrest/death. Unfortunately, it's just not in my interest or my patient's best interest to scare the bejeezus out of them 10 minutes before rolling into the OR.
 
Unfortunately, it's just not in my interest or my patient's best interest to scare the bejeezus out of them 10 minutes before rolling into the OR.
then you are not obtaining informing consent. YOu are doing nobody any service.. They must know they could die.
 
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then you are not obtaining informing consent. YOu are doing nobody any service.. They must know they could die.

I'd love to hear the verbatim discussion you'd have with a mom 15 minutes before you roll her kid back for his first ear tube
 
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I don't get it - crnas are trained by physicians with the understanding that in all likelihood the crna will end up in a careteam model practicing under supervision. if this va handbook thing passes and eventually affects the pp market, what incentive would any physician have to train a crna? nurse anesthetist education would cease I should think. do they not realize that?
 
Interesting point. I'm sure most here are like me and use the spiel about "going off to sleep" with the main risk being a sore throat instead of using verbiage more along the lines of coma and non-zero risk of fatal allergic reaction/bronchospasm/cardiac arrest/death. Unfortunately, it's just not in my interest or my patient's best interest to scare the bejeezus out of them 10 minutes before rolling into the OR.
It's not in her interest but, if I don't mention the latter, it's not informed consent.
 
I don't get it - crnas are trained by physicians with the understanding that in all likelihood the crna will end up in a careteam model practicing under supervision. if this va handbook thing passes and eventually affects the pp market, what incentive would any physician have to train a crna? nurse anesthetist education would cease I should think. do they not realize that?

It should cease right now. I have no idea why we continue to educate them if they want our jobs. Quit playing nice and start to think about the future. If access to surgery is so abysmal that we have to turn to CRNAs to practice on their own, then open up more physician residencies. Even if it waters down the job market, at least I can sleep at night knowing doctors are taking care of patients in the OR and someone with 1/4 our training is not being treated as our equal.


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It's not in her interest but, if I don't mention the latter, it's not informed consent.

Do you also explicitly tell awake patients in the ICU that they could lose their hand secondary to complications from a radial a-line, or that they could possibly die from a tension pneumo after CVL placement? Do you explicitly tell hysterical laborers that they could be paralyzed from an epidural?


"
http://www.kevinmd.com/blog/2014/10/informed-consent-can-patients-ever-truly-informed.html

Informed consent: Can patients ever truly be informed?
VAMSI ARIBINDI, MD | PHYSICIAN | OCTOBER 5, 2014

This post by Paul Levy got me thinking about informed consent, and a case I saw recently got me to take a little time and write about an issue frequently ignored in medical school.

A bit of background for non-medical readers. Informed consent is a term in medicine for when doctors get the agreement of the patient to do something to said patient. For example, before a patient is cut open for surgery, the patient has to say, “Yes I want to be cut open and have x happen.”

Less extreme examples abound: the patient has to consent to anything from a blood draw for a lab test to a CT scan. Part of informed consent is that the patient has to be informed. It is acceptable for a patient to say, “Tell me nothing, just do it,” but the patient has to be offered information regarding their disease as well as the risks and benefits of the procedure they are consenting to. For example, “This x-ray will tell us whether or not you have pneumonia or something else, but may slightly increase your risk of cancer in the long run. I recommend you get it. Do you agree?”

But here’s the thing: I increasingly think informed consent is a chimera, a concept more than a concrete thing. I believe it is whatever the provider wants it to be.

As an example, consider this case that I recently saw on the wards.

One day on call, my team had a patient in labor with pre-eclampsia superimposed upon hypertension. Pre-eclampsia is a condition in which the placenta that supplies blood to the fetus is malfunctioning in some way. In response, the mom’s body bumps up the blood pressure to force through more blood to the fetus. This can result in damage to vulnerable organs like the kidneys, the liver, the lungs, the eyes, and most importantly the brain. This patient was in labor, and her blood pressures fluctuated between 140 and 160. However, taking into account her baseline hypertension my team found this not as worrisome. She had other no severe features of pre-eclampsia: kidney failure, liver problems, threatened strokes, vision changes, etc.

The team was informed by the nurse that the patient desired a C-section, and my senior resident went in to talk to the patient. There, we found that the patient had been watching her own blood pressure’s rise and fall on the monitor — she was worried that her fluctuations in blood pressure would result in a stroke or heart attack.

My senior resident talked to the patient for 10 minutes, explaining clearly her options: If she truly wanted it, she could have a C-section now. But, we didn’t recommend it at this point. We had medications to bring her blood pressure down if her pressure went above 160, and that there were risks to both a C-section and to continuing to labor. The fluctuations were not concerning to us. It was a very balanced counseling: We explained that the risks to her health were small and controllable but present, and that we would push her more strongly towards a C-section if we felt she needed one. We left, and gave the woman and her partner time to think. I thought my senior had done an excellent job of presenting all the options, addressing concerns, and giving the patient time to think.
After we left, we ran our management of the patient by the attending. Upon hearing of her blood pressures without any signs of severe problems, and then learning that she was considering a C-section after a balanced counseling, the attending promptly ordered senior resident to, “Get back in there and convince her to deliver this baby vaginally.” My senior resident did indeed go back, and talk to the patient (I was unable to be present for the conversation), and she did indeed end up having a vaginal delivery many hours later.

My senior resident was concerned with patient autonomy: He legitimately wanted to present the options to the patient. My attending was more concerned with beneficence: He felt that the women would be harmed by a C-section and that she needed to be pushed towards a vaginal delivery. In effect, he felt that the balanced counseling that was given was too pro-C-section.

Both perspectives were not incorrect: After all how one presents the options can make a huge difference. Imagine the senior resident saying either of these two things to the patient the first time around:

1. “A C-section is dangerous, especially if you want more kids. It’s major surgery, and a lot can go wrong. Even worse, your ability to have future children is threatened. There may be so much bleeding that we have to take out your uterus. Your blood pressure isn’t concerning to us — we’ll do something if it becomes a problem — and your risks are quite low at this point. How about we keep trying to push this baby out naturally?”

2. “You have pre-eclampsia, a dangerous condition. It puts you at increased risk of all kinds of problems, and the only cure for pre-eclampsia is delivery. We are controlling those risks, but we can’t make them go away entirely. Why don’t we get your kid into this world now and further reduce the chance of liver and kidney damage?”
Both statements are entirely true statements, but imagine if you’re a relatively uninformed pregnant women; hearing those spiels, which option would you choose?

There is such a massive knowledge imbalance between doctors and patients. How can any patient who is not a doctor ever be truly informed? They would logically need to understand the amount of knowledge contained in 7-10 years of medical training in 5 minutes.

Ultimately, all patients end up trusting their doctors to some degree. What that degree is varies from provider to provider, but depends on the provider. Throw in the fact that most people don’t read what they sign (or they’ll be stuck reading a novel in most hospitals) and you get the present reality. Just because a doctor spends 5 minutes discussing risks and benefits does not make consent informed, and consent may never be truly and fully informed; and that’s not necessarily a bad thing.

After all, informed consent has always been recognized by the legal profession as no obstacle: The physician is still held liable for everything that is offered or done, unless the patient refuses everything the doctor offers. What that means is that regardless of if the patient above chose as a vaginal delivery or C-section, if anything went wrong the physician would be held liable. Only if the physician tells the patient that they absolutely need a C-section and the patient refuses it against medical advice is the physician somewhat insulated. (This creates an obvious incentive for physicians, which manifests itself in a nearly 50 percent C-section rate in high malpractice lawsuit areas like New York City.)

The real problem though is when physicians don’t realize the power that they have. Our knowledge of medicine lets us convince most patients to do anything, and it is easy to blindly use that power without realizing the biases that might influence our advice. If we fool ourselves, saying “I’m merely providing information and options,” we risk doing a serious disservice to our patients.
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The point is, if you have a 1 in 250,000 catastrophic anesthetic complication, you're getting sued regardless of whether the patient signed an anesthesia consent that outlined all the risks in detail, and regardless of what you said to them in pre-op about said risks. Explicitly telling the average person that he has a < 1 in 100,000 risk of mortality from anesthesia adds absolutely nothing to his understanding, and only adds a bunch of unnecessary anxiety.

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Do you also explicitly tell awake patients in the ICU that they could lose their hand secondary to complications from a radial a-line, or that they could possibly die from a tension pneumo after CVL placement? Do you explicitly tell hysterical laborers that they could be paralyzed from an epidural?
I explicitly tell both the frequent and the severe complications. For the latter, I try to give an incidence rate.

So I don't tell them that they could lose their hand, which is extremely rare, but I tell them there is a tiny chance they might need surgery for a clot or a vascular lesion. The same way, I do tell them that they might need a chest tube inserted after a central line placement (tension pneumo is really rare). I hate consenting for epidurals during active labor but, yes, I do tell them about risk of long-term nerve injury. I do the same for peripheral blocks. Besides the legal aspect, I want them to understand the risks, and to realize that anesthesia is not something free of risks anybody could do.

I don't tell them explicitly about the risk of death, unless there is a palpable chance for it (high MACE). I don't make promises, and I don't lie to my patients, not even to make them feel better. I usually introduce my detailed consent as me being required by law to explain certain things to them, and while I might use euphemisms, I make sure that the patient understands the risks, not just agrees blindly. A few get scared, there is Versed and reassurance for that. I am there to keep them and make them feel safe, but I won't shoot myself in the foot by not getting an informed consent. This is all oral, by the way, and I give them the chance to stop me at any time, if they don't want to hear more.

Guess what? Surgeons do the same thing. Actually, my entire preop spiel tends to last the same as a surgeon's consent. ;)

Indeed, what matters most for a lawsuit is not the consent, but the outcome and whether the patient likes you. Explaining what I do is one way to convince the patient that I am not a hack. Also patients tend to accept more easily suboptimal outcomes they had heard about. Obviously, it won't change much for the really bad outcomes, but at least they cannot argue they would have never agreed had they known...
 
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I had an attending in medical school who would tell all his patients that they were not, in fact, "going to sleep," but instead into a medically induced coma.
 
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I had an attending in medical school who would tell all his patients that they were not, in fact, "going to sleep," but instead into a medically induced coma.
I used to say exactly that during my residency. Now I say that they will be unconscious. I very much try not to use the term sleep, and if they use it I tell them it's not sleep.

The idea is not to scare the patient. On the other hand, if the risks are significant, I won't lie.
 
Policy Management
AUGUST 3, 2016
Comments Slam VA Proposal

There were more than 167,000 comments posted to the Federal Register on the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) proposal to remove physician anesthesiologists from the OR. And, as was reported in a press release from the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA), dated July 26, 2016, the public was not impressed with the idea.

Indeed, fully 90% of veterans rejected the proposed rule, and an estimated two-thirds of all comments opposed it.

The proposed policy would replace anesthesiologists with nurse anesthetists, a move that would necessarily lower the level of expertise in the OR, despite the fact that there is no shortage of physician anesthesiologists within the VA.
 
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I had an attending in medical school who would tell all his patients that they were not, in fact, "going to sleep," but instead into a medically induced coma.


I avoid using sleep too, although I have many attendings who use this as well as saying, "pick out a dream," which makes me cringe. I make it clear with people that do have complex medical conditions of their increased risks.
 
Policy Management
AUGUST 3, 2016
Comments Slam VA Proposal

There were more than 167,000 comments posted to the Federal Register on the U.S. Department of Veterans Affairs (VA) proposal to remove physician anesthesiologists from the OR. And, as was reported in a press release from the American Society of Anesthesiologists (ASA), dated July 26, 2016, the public was not impressed with the idea.

Indeed, fully 90% of veterans rejected the proposed rule, and an estimated two-thirds of all comments opposed it.

The proposed policy would replace anesthesiologists with nurse anesthetists, a move that would necessarily lower the level of expertise in the OR, despite the fact that there is no shortage of physician anesthesiologists within the VA.

Doesn't really matter what the public thinks. The beaurocrats will do what they want. Whoever buys them off.

Like the CRNA opt out legislation that requires the governors to consults both the the board of medicine and board of nursing. All those governors who opted out heard from the board of medicine in one ear and let the comments fly out the other ear and went with the board of nursing proposal to opt out.
 
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I came across this forum while doing a project for my advanced practice nursing degree about the pros and cons of independent practice for advanced practice nurses. While some of you appear to be offering what could be viewed as valid concerns, others are absolutely clueless about what nurses do and blatantly rude in your assumptions.

One commenter, Gravlrider, mentioned that nurses are just butt-wipers that sit around and gossip with other butt-wipers. Wow, it's amazing that with all that education, you can't even look far enough down your own nose to distinguish the difference between a nursing assistant who receives TWO WEEKS of education and a registered nurse with 3-5 years of education! If a registered nurse is wiping a butt, it is because she is a team player who is not too good to help the "lowly" nursing assistant.

It's these kinds of attitudes that have put physicians and nurses at odds with each other. Maybe if physicians hadn't been so arrogant for so long, the concept of a team approach would be business as usual and all you physicians and physicians in training wouldn't have to be lamenting the potential loss of your ridiculously high salaries and positions of power.

Speaking of which, there are many on here who have commented about their time at the VA when the anesthesiologist basically sat in an office all day long while the CRNA did all the work with the patients. So, essentially, if this is true, all the VA is doing is making the current status quo official?!? Furthermore, if this is true, how can you assert that the quality of care will decrease when CRNAs have been providing the care for quite some time already? If this is the case, then the quality of care will remain the same! Also, if this is the case, then all your complaints basically amount to a reaction to a potential loss of POWER AND POSITION and not to any real concerns about veterans!

BTW, I am a veteran and an advance practice nursing student and I am unimpressed by your appeals on behalf of veterans. I absolutely see through them!

Finally, I would challenge any one of you on this forum to come up with some actual EVIDENCE that APRNs are inferior care providers to physicians. You know, scholarly studies. So far, all I have heard are opinions. In my research, I have come across a number of studies indicating the opposite to be true. The Institute of Medicine conducted its own study and concluded that APRNs provide safe and effective care and recommended that APRNs be allowed to practice to the full extent of their scope of practice in all states! Once I am further along in my project, I would be happy to return to this forum and post links to the studies I have perused if any of you are interested in actually knowing the truth.
Share one study showing "APRNs" provide equivalent care to physicians.

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