Western/COMP Discussion Thread 2009-2010
Started by danimjo
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The lecture is simulcast to one of the classrooms.
Well then what is the issue?
As for the lecture simulcast, I still don't see the problem--if they're already being shown in two lecture halls what has changed?
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The problem with enforcing the current dress code? I don't see one that's intellectually honest.
Is there an official announcement about this new curriculum? I can't find anything on westernu.edu. I called today to ask, but my call was not returned. Does anybody know for sure???
Do you know if it's full on PBL? At my interview day they said they were still "tweaking the curriculum" for this year or some such thing but no mention of PBL. If so that's very uncool...
I don't think anybody has said it's full PBL except for Cyclopentane.
Hey there, Cyclo... any more details?
For second year, the schedule for PBL is already set. I am not sure if first year will get the a PBL curriculum, but my guess is that you'll get PBL too in your first year. If not in your first year, i'm positive you'll get PBL for your second year. I'm not sure the amount of PBL we'll get, but my guess it'll be PBL with small groups and large group lecture (~9 hrs/wk) compared to the (~20-25 hrs/wk) from the old curriculum.
First off, this is a medical school, not college. Most medical school have at the very most ~200 students. Medical school should not be like college because you are consider a professional and are held at a high standard. Furthermore, you are putting out ~45-50k (not sure the exact amt) every year + room and board which comes out to be 75K (at least what westernU projects it at), and you are treated as 1 out of ~500 student to learn about medicine. I don't know you, but in general other medical school do not have this ratio and pay way less than what we pay for (w/ some exceptions like USC). My other friends from other medical school could freely ask questions because their ratio was ~80:1 and it becomes more of a learning environment instead of a large lecture hall where students are afraid to ask "stupid" questions because they feel that it might impede other students. If I'm paying 75K a year, I expect more.
Although the class room fits like 356 students, they cannot fit 500 something students in one class so they have another room where they project the lecture on the screen. I find that funny because you just drop 75K to come to a school, drive 15 mins or so to campus just so you can watch a person on a screen give you a lecture. Oh wait a minute, I have a question to ask, oops! the professor can't see you cause he/she is in another room! They give you this online application so you can send in questions via computer to them, but they always forget to see it and if they do, it's usually 5-10 mins after. I definitely feel my 75K a year is put into real good use.
The dress code will be enforced. I feel that if they enforced the current dress code, with time, they'll change the dress code and make it mandatory to dress professional at all times at campus. WesternU dental students have to dress professional at all times so they'll be more incline to have us do it too.
The problem is that when you are on campus to study, do you need to dress professional or can you come in comfortable clothing to study for 4-10 hours long? I don't know if I like the idea of being stressed w/ school work and studying with a tie/dress all day. It's suffocating and extremely uncomfortable.
I predict that at first, we'll enforce the current dress code, then the dean will have some sort of crazy idea to elevate it to the next level. The hit will probably happen to the incoming DO2014 class. This is all speculation of course.
The problem is that when you are on campus to study, do you need to dress professional or can you come in comfortable clothing to study for 4-10 hours long? I don't know if I like the idea of being stressed w/ school work and studying with a tie/dress all day. It's suffocating and extremely uncomfortable.
I predict that at first, we'll enforce the current dress code, then the dean will have some sort of crazy idea to elevate it to the next level. The hit will probably happen to the incoming DO2014 class. This is all speculation of course.
Each medical class at Western is about 200 students. They just happen to share the campus and classes with other health professional students. I suppose the difference is that other schools waste resources by giving the same lecture by different lecturers to different groups of students. It makes sense to consolidate. At least it would if I were an administrator.
Ummm, then why were you complaining about the dress code?
Seriously, what is the functional difference between being 1 in 200 something or 1 in 500 something. Functionally it is the same thing. Again, I maintain once a class size passes a certain threshold (say 100 people), your functional experience is the same.
Well I suppose that will have to wait until the fall.
Well it is too bad you didn't get in to those other schools.
First of all, you said above the ratio is typically 200:1. How did we shrink it to 80:1? Again, functionally, it doesn't matter. If you're afraid to ask a question in front of 200 people, removing 120 of those people probably isn't going to make a big difference. Especially since if you only had 80 people, you'd be in a smaller classroom and the number of people per square meter probably stays the same.
Amazingly, we have a free market medical school system. You are free to take that 75k and give it to another school. Assuming you can get in. It would be a huge pain in the rear to transfer, no doubt. But it already sounds like you're having a pain in the rear.
But sure, for 75k I want a professor to hold my hand through all the exams. Sadly, that isn't going to happen.
Admittedly, this is kind of dumb. Then again, this is why they have Apreso, no?
In any event, lets say they shrunk it down to 200 students. Ok,so you drive 15 minutes to campus and listen to a prof lecture. Same difference to me. The lecture halls are pretty gigantic, so if you're in the back you might as well be watching someone on the screen.
Yes, if your questions are not being answered, this is problematic. But it seems like you could bring this up with the professor after lecture. Not a terribly difficult thing to address.
I mean, yeah, the lecture thing sort of sucks. But I have pretty much always hated going to lecture anyway. But you know what? In graduate school I'd have seminar courses with like 5 people. That still sucked. I'd much rather read stuff on my own than sit confined in a room for hours. It doesn't matter if it is 5 or 500 people, I'm not keen on being there. Big deal. Much of our future careers as physicians will involve doing stuff we're not keen on. Come on, we all know that large parts of physician days are spent doing craptastically boring paperwork, dictation, and/or dealing with other soul numbing drudgery. A few hours a day for 2 years under slightly less than ideal conditions isn't really the end of the world. Slightly annoying? Possibly.
I share your sentiment on this part. It really doesn't seem fair to have to pay such ridiculous tuition rates when Western doesn't even seem to have the adequate space/facilities to handle all their students. I havn't started at Western yet so I have no idea what impact this overcrowding will have on my education.... I have the feeling I'll probably just watch most of the lectures from home anyways... but still, I find the issue of overcrowding (if this still exists when I start this summer) pretty annoying.
Btw, I thought they just opened a brand new building, complete with new lecture halls.... why is there still an issue of overcrowding?
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As you pointed out, this is professional school.
What is not comfortable about a button up shirt and slacks?
Really? Wearing a tie makes you stressed? You are going to be a physician. Therefore you will have to dress professionally almost everyday, all day for most of the rest of your life. If your tie is suffocating, loosen it. Don't button the top button of the shirt. Get clothes that fit so that they are comfortable.
I know it is totally crazy to expect professional school students to dress professionally.
Now it'd be nice if maybe they adjust up the COA to give us a little more money to buy some nice clothes. You could complain about that. That is what I'd complain about--not that I have to wear nice clothes, just that I need some extra money to buy a few more shirts, slacks, ties and shoes. But otherwise, this doesn't really sound like a huge deal.
Personally I think I'd rather channel my angst into the gym or something and worry more about studying than stuff that is pretty trivial like this. But that's me. And trust me, I LOVE to complain about stuff. But fights with the administration, you're never going to win that game.
This is true, but you are belittling some very valid criticisms.
We are not catholic school-children, we should not have to play dress-up every day to go to school. We are not naive, we know that when we go to a clinical setting we will have to and WANT to wear professional attire, but it is silly and a waste of time, money, and stress to wear and launder nice clothes to sit around with other students in Pomona. WU is not on a public hospital campus where we might mingle with patients. Maybe this is more of an issue for men than for women. The dress code provides very few options for men, while women can choose among various styles of dresses, slacks, etc.
As for the class size, most major med schools have MS1 classes <200 and some but not all commingle with other professions. I have have sat in a lecture at a major med school and it was a comfortable mid-size hall less than half full, rather than two halls with video screens. I do not expect personal instruction but for $50k/year, 500:1 is pushing it. Again, RG73, you are belittling what I agree are very valid complaints.
Thank you, Cyclopentane, for bringing these issues to our attention before we have registered for OMS1 classes and signed promissory notes. I, for one, am very grateful.
Assuming the class sizes don't increase too dramatically (I honestly wouldn't hold my breath. It's only natural that new schools/programs start small and grow, but I don't know how much Admin is planing on growing the OD, DPM, and DMD classes), it's only a problem when all 4 programs are sharing the same lecture. Not all of the programs take the same courses. For example, the Behavioral Med and Psych was just the DOs and DPMs. It's essentially only a problem with the anatomy courses since those are most of the classes with daily quizzes (I'm trying to remember which program doesn't take head and neck anatomy...). So it's more of being much much less of a problem then 100% no problem.
I think my criticisms of the criticisms are pretty valid.
Putting on a pair of khakis and a button up shirt is hardly dressing up. But, as per the dress code quoted above by Siggy, they're basically just asking that you don't go around dressed like a hobo with torn up jeans. You can wear shorts. Even if they change that, so what? What is the difference? You want to wear a t-shirt and jeans. They want you to wear some sort of slacks and a collared shirt (maybe not even button up, maybe a polo shirt). So instead of putting two legs into jeans you put two legs into some Dockers or something. And instead of pulling on a t-shirt you pull on a collared polo shirt. The end. What is the actual difference here? Except that maybe you look a little dorky.
Again, you are going to have to launder clothes. If you sit next to me wearing smelly clothes, I'm going to let you know. Assuming we don't have to wear a suit everyday, you can put a lot of shirts and pants in the regular wash, just like you would you other clothes. So again, no real change in your routine.
Again, I'm not sure why it is stressful to wear a collared shirt and some pants that aren't jeans. That sentiment baffles me really.
I fail to see the time issue. The difference between putting on a collared shirt and slacks vs jeans and a t-shirt (or shorts) is negligible. And you can wear slip on shoes. Those take about the same amount of time to put on as sandals. Where is the time loss?
So basically we have the money issue. I agree this is a valid concern. If people need to make an investment in some new wardrobe items for school, I would argue the COA needs to be adjusted up slightly. No biggie.
Well there is the clinic on the east side of the campus and there are patients there. Probably best not to have a bunch of scruffy looking kids walking around.
I don't see it as any issue at all for men. Guys almost universally wear pants and shirts. I mean I knew a guy who wore a sarong once, but he had a few screws loose. So basically I see it as a choice between denim and cotton. Maybe length (e.g. shorts vs pants). And buttons vs no buttons.
I have yet to hear an argument explaining to me the functional difference between 200 and 500 people in a classroom. What I'm hearing are emotional arguments--e.g., "I don't like it just because!" The threshold for any sort of real personal interaction in a classroom is something like 2 dozen. Any more than that and you're a face in a crowd being lectured at. What difference does it make if the lecture hall if half full or totally full? I'm completely neurotic anyway--even if no one is sitting on either side of me, I'm probably going to obsess over some sound someone is making on the other side of the lecture hall regardless. If someone is right next to you, I suppose that just makes your distracted concerns more immediate in proximity. Your attention will wax and wane as it is wont to regardless.
Beyond that, sure, it'd be swell to have smaller classes (except, well, it doesn't make a difference to me). The milk is spilt and spoiled by now though. And we're crying over it why? You could fill the sea with tears and there is still going to be 2 full classrooms next year if only because of the lag time in building more (assuming they'd build more buildings in response to tears). It sucks. Fine. We also can't change it, right?
In such situations, sucking it up is generally the optimal strategy.
Well I already signed a promissory note, and, you know, forked over $2000 in a deposit, and declined offers at other schools....therefore, even if our hydrocarbon friend is correct (and there isn't a lot of corroborating evidence thus far), well, I personally am stuck. Hence, the above sucking it up strategy.
I don't know about the rest of you, but I'm kind of excited about starting class in August. I'm less keen on griping about stuff before we even know what is true or not, before we have set foot in the classroom, and, moreover, griping about stuff that we can't change anyway. That isn't really fun.
Now, mind you, when I'm whining about all this come October or something, you are all more than welcome to point me in the general direction of this thread then.
I deleted the other part of this because it did not belong here.
The truth is that I'm really angry about this. I think PBL is a big load of BS and I would never in a million years have applied to a school that uses it.
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Do you have actual data to support that PBL is a big load of BS or is this another emotion parading as a fact?
The facts, according to everyone but 5 carbon, are that the curriculum IS NOT being switched to 100% PBL. Nor does it sound like even close to 100% PBL. There will be SOME PBL.
I happen to like PBL. As do a lot of other people. So no biggie for me. But I can totally respect that you don't like it and that it might not be an ideal curriculum (even part time) for you. That, of course, doesn't make it "BS," it just means you don't like it.
Now, given that you don't like PBL (and regardless of whether you have a factual basis for calling it a load of BS), I can also understand that you might feel a bit pissed off if the school portrayed itself as one thing and then switched to something else. To this I have two points: one, in my experience, Western never portrayed itself as NOT PBL. They made a big deal during my interview day of talking up the IPE class, and that basically sounded like PBL between students in the different professional schools. In fact, in the book they handed out, it says you have to do that once or twice a week. So I'm pretty sure I got the same materials interview day as everyone else, so you probably also heard and read about the IPE class, and since it says very clearly that it is a problem based learning class, well, it was hard to miss that Western would have some PBL.
My second point is that you are basing all of this off of an anonymous poster on the internet, and nothing this individual has stated has been backed up by any other anonymous internet posters. Therefore, you're getting pissed about something that may or may not be true. The logical thing here, and I presume you're a logical person, would be to call the school and ask them. In fact, people have done this, and at least some administrators are unaware of this supposed massive change in the curriculum. So call the school and ask. I'm pretty sure they can't do such a massive curriculum overhaul without telling new students specifically b/c it would have changed which people do and don't apply to the school. They'd probably be open to some sort of stupid lawsuit for pulling a bait-and-switch. Moreover, no school is crazy enough to swap out a curriculum wholesale for a professional school in one year. You just don't do that. So again, what is probably the case is that they're making small changes each year. Then seeing how those changes work, and adjusting.
Or, you know, we can believe someone who consists of only 5 carbons.
Actual data? What do you want, a double blind study about PBL? It's my opinion which is valid. I'm not trying to convince you; this is a discussion about what many feel are problems with the school. Now I wish I hadn't deleted what I deleted because you need it. Thank you for agreeing about the bait-and-switch aspect of this. It is extremely unprofessional and, I dare say, ripe for a lawsuit to present a product and then on the eve of delivery when the customers have no choice, switch it to something completely different.
IPE is an extra unit, not a required part of a medical education, and it was advertised as one day a week to allow us to integrate with the other allied health professions. That didn't bother me. Presenting our core science/medical curriculum via PBL, however, is unacceptable to me, especially with no official notice two weeks before ISAC.
Re. authenticity... If you look at the COMP 2014 facebook page there is a non-anonymous COMP 2013 student confirming what sounds like a thorough PBL curriculum. I have called/emailed two different people at the school yesterday and today with no response.
I'm angry and I have every right to be. They should have advertised this a year in advance and then phased it in over two years so that every student would have know about it at the time of application.
You should probably read the page again. I'm pretty sure that you're just hearing what you want to hear.
I've read it multiple times. They're cutting lectures down from five days/week to two, instituting small and large group meetings and quizzes. The result is a shift from lecture-based learning to independent learning. That is what PBL is and it's not what I signed up for.
... and the whole scheme would give you more individual time with professors to offset the purported 500:1 ratio that you're freaking out about. There always were quizzes. There's only mandatory attendance 2 days / wk, and as you said yourself, there are still lectures that you can probably watch at home in your pajamas. Most people seemed to want as little lecture time as possible anyway.
Plus, they already had some case-based stuff before. At least, that's what the videos we were shown during the interview visit seemed to suggest.
Realize that this isn't a decision the school would've made lightly - going into small group format is much less efficient since you've now changed the teaching setting from 98032:1 to 10:1.
If you're still so angry about it, well, sorry. It's not bad to feel negatively about it - no one school is perfect for everybody. Perhaps you can ask to get back on the waitlist at some of your other schools.
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Here's something to think about. The people on here "from Western" who are going all paranoid and handwaving freakoutery about the changes (and completely exagerating what we have been told) are hiding behind accounts with very low post counts. Why is that?
Eh, I thought about the possibility of trolling, but, I think they're valid. Pentane has some older posts about wanting to go to Virginia (I think?) and Quasar got in COMP around October. I also considered whether Quasar was actually Pentane, but it doesn't matter. The feeling of being victim of a bait 'n switch is understandable, but it looks like most people aren't too concerned. To be fair though, I like ties and I think PBL is fun. It does mean that I probably won't be able to bike to school, but I don't think I was going to anyway. It's 80F in Michigan and I can't make the 1 mile commute without soaking my shirt. Also, given the lack of changing facilities I doubt that the school will be able to implement any sort of tough dress code when things like Anatomy and OMM have to be considered.
I'm also inclined to believe that Pentane and Quasar are real because I personally could complain for days about my undergrad institution. Sometimes a place just rubs you the wrong way and you miss the big picture.
My problem with the posts is the amout of hyperbole and misrepresentation (boardering on flat out lying) that those posts contain. I'll be honest, I'm against the idea of a strict dress code. I'll go on record saying that. However, I don't need to lie about the current dress code in order to make my arguments. Similarly, comparing what occured in the IPE class to anything else is just asanine. It's completely apples and oranges for no other fact than the goal of that class (and, therefore, the cases and just about everything else outside of a vague concept of PBL) and the goal of a systems class are completely different. What troubles me about the posts in here isn't that they're anti-Western (God knows I can go on for a while about specific issues that I'm peeved about, but it would be a missing the forest for the trees for an internet forum), but that half the time they're being intellectually dishonest with the arguments being made.
I hope you will point out what borders on lying here, and I disagree that it's intellectually dishonest or anti-Western, per se. Med school is $200,000 tuition plus expenses plus lost wages while in school plus a commitment of minimum seven years of our lives. Changing the entire educational system after it's too late for us to choose a different school is a big deal. It's unprofessional, unconscionable, really, akin to wheeling a patient into an OR and the surgeon telling them that they've decided to handle their disease differently, but "don't worry, we know what we're doing."
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Lying or being intellectually dishonest would include quotes in this thread like:
(emphasis added)
Saying that were going to a pure PBL system, a la the vet school.
Comparing IPE to the "Small group/large group" sessions (yes, I put that in quotes because from what I've heard, it sounds an awe full lot like PBL).
I will argue that inflating this to "ZOMG We're going full PBL" (there's no indication of this) or saying that the current (unenforced) dress code are collared shirts and slacks is so far from what we've been told or what is true to be ipso facto anti-Western.
From what we've been told, this isn't the first time they've done this style of instruction. They're just dramatically expanding it. One way I look at it is that they could have always not told us and we probably would have just assumed that that was how the course was run. After all, for example, we weren't told of the group projects in ECM until class had already started. Now, yes, we should have been told sooner. I definitely agree on that point, however I don't feel like it's the end of the world.
Also, it's a minimum of 4 years, unless you were looking at COMP or no med school at all. Residency isn't unique to COMP.
Now if you want my full support at complaining about something, we can unite against the IT department who can't seem to keep Apreso working!
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To add to this, being apart of the ISAC program is a great opportunity. It will definitely kill your summer plans, but the amount of material you'll learn and the teacher to student ratio is amazing. In the anatomy lab, you'll have almost 1 professor to every cadaver to answers your burning questions. You'll notice a BIG difference between the ISAC program and regular school year. Furthermore, you'll get to know the faculty and during the school year, you'll get to teach fellow students and study (or play) during the school year while non-ISACers study for anatomy. So really consider the ISAC program.
The point I was making about IPE is that it is a new course that was a complete disaster. The fact that PBL will be a new course among DO's has many students worried about the success of the course. Although other schools might be successful in PBL course, the fact is, this will be the first time WesternU DO goes into a full year of just PBL and the fact that this is a first time gets students worried (although one can argue that they tested the course in GI for the current 2nd year). The fact remains to be seen in terms of how effective PBL course is in WesternU DO. It may be successful at other schools, maybe because they have had the PBL course for so many years, but the results may vary with WesternU DO course because it is the first time they are doing it for us. With that being said, students are worried about whether this will affect their board scores cause obviously there is no WesternU data that supports PBL will be a success. The data WesternU has is the "success" rate at other school who has done PBL. I'll go on record to say that I support the PBL on numerous level. I initially threw this out to make students in this forum aware of what they are getting themselves into and what are the current pros and cons. I frankly will be quite mad when I was told one thing during the interview and given another. Cause if i was in their shoes, I rather know all the pros and cons before making a sound decision because obviously once a decision is made, you are stuck with it. Of course you can transfer and blah blah blah, but c'mon, what is the likelihood of that being successful? It's more pain and troublesome to do that when I could of done it before schools even began. These arguments are not "dishonest". Ask the class and see how they feel. These are opinions of how fellow classmates feel regardless if they are wrong or not. It is an opinion and there is no right or wrong in people's opinion. This shows the discontent with a lot of issues at WesternU. Many students feel shafted because they made a commitment to WesternU without knowledge of all these issues happening. They were told one thing and given another.
Dress Code:
...
At our town hall meeting (where students meet with the dean to talk about policies), the dean did not give us student a choice of whether we like the idea of a dress code, but gave us an ultimatum that we either enforce the current dress code (with slacks, collar shirt, etc.) or dress like professionals (tie, slacks, etc.).
The fact is we have to two choices. There is no need to get technical about it. The status quo is inappropriate. The status quo that students have been going on for years that was never really enforced somehow magically got challenged when the Dean saw how nice the dental students look compared to the DO's. Obviously this is never said, but it doesn't take a scientist to figure this out. Now the prediction is, the dress code will be strictly enforced. The question is to what extent? And knowing how Dean Adams works, a military guy, you can place your bet that he'll want something that is organized and an orderly fashion.
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Except Dr. Thrush and Dr. Pumerantz made it clear that it's not "just PBL." Hopefully Dr. Thrush will let me post the link to the Apreso recording from the lunch session where they discussed the changes.
Yea, and is there anything that the bolded claim cant be used for? We just finished psych after all, and it was the first time teaching psych 'to us.' Blood and Lymph was the first time teaching a system "for us." The only other interpretation is that it's the first time they used the small/big session for "us" (as in a DO class) is kinda of contradicted with your earlier mention of the GI program from last year.
Now let's talk about an alternative. When are curriculum changes supposed to occur? Are we supposed to be consulted on every single change in the curriculum or style? Now, sure, I'll agree that the infusion of PBL is a big change and should have been mentioned earlier, but the fact is that they were going to introduce it and someone had to be first. Personally, I just don't share the apocalyptic doom and gloom, "everyone's going to fail everything because of this" view.
To address the first part, if you're looking for institution specific data, then it's not going to happen until it gets implemented, regardless of any changes that occur. You can't generate institution specific data without implementing something and then go back retroactively and introduce something because you like the numbers. Using your basis of change (get good results at each institution, then introduce process at that institution) would mean that there would never be any drastic changes in the curriculum. This includes the system based curriculum because some school, at some point, had to say, "Why don't we teach it this way because..." even though there wasn't any evidence at that specific institution regarding systems based curriculum.
As far as the second part, I'll reiterate what I posted earlier.
1. Current dress code mandating collared shirt and slacks is a complete lie.
2. "Full PBL" (i.e. vet school style) is not supported by anything we've been told so far. So unless you have some sort of inside information beyond what has been discussed with the students by the faculty, it is, at best, a distortion of the truth.
I agree, to an extent, with the core of your argument. However, when you go ahead and try to make what has been announced into something that it isn't, then I'm going to call foul for the exact reasons I've discussed and listed in both this post and earlier posts. An opinion is wrong when based on wrong information, and as long as you're claiming that we're going to "full PBL" without a shred of evidence (and actually we were explicitly told that we weren't going to a full PBL curriculum) to contradict what we were told, then your opinion is built on faulty information.
Siggy...
Were you at the same meeting that C5H10 was? If so, then please give us your account of the dress code and curriculum issues. If not, then you should stop calling him a lier.
From what I have read here and on FB, the changes sound everything like a fairly thorough PBL program. PBL does not mean that 100% of your education is in small groups. It is, generally, a combination of minimal lecture time, independent study and group work. That is exactly what has been described online. Unfortunately, repeated attempts to get clarification from the horse's mouth have been ignored.
When I said seven years, I meant that the day we enroll in medical school we are beginning a chapter of our lives that will be at minimum seven years of classroom, clinical, and residency. I have been told that the most important and difficult SINLGE event on the road to becoming a physician is STEP 1. Our success on STEP 1 is very much dependent on our first two years of med school. Clear now?
The main issue here, in my mind, is that regardless of what any one person or school or study thinks of PBL it is completely unacceptable for western to make this change unannounced on the eve of enrollment.
Were you at the same meeting that C5H10 was? If so, then please give us your account of the dress code and curriculum issues. If not, then you should stop calling him a lier.
From what I have read here and on FB, the changes sound everything like a fairly thorough PBL program. PBL does not mean that 100% of your education is in small groups. It is, generally, a combination of minimal lecture time, independent study and group work. That is exactly what has been described online. Unfortunately, repeated attempts to get clarification from the horse's mouth have been ignored.
When I said seven years, I meant that the day we enroll in medical school we are beginning a chapter of our lives that will be at minimum seven years of classroom, clinical, and residency. I have been told that the most important and difficult SINLGE event on the road to becoming a physician is STEP 1. Our success on STEP 1 is very much dependent on our first two years of med school. Clear now?
The main issue here, in my mind, is that regardless of what any one person or school or study thinks of PBL it is completely unacceptable for western to make this change unannounced on the eve of enrollment.
RE: dress code and mandatory attendance
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showpost.php?p=9666691&postcount=1186
Re: Curriculum change:
From what was described (and actually, we start the musculoskeletal case today), what was going to happen was that we get several cases, break out into assigned small groups, answer questions, come back into large group (i.e. the entire class), discuss, get lectured on the cases, take a quiz. This is in replacement of some lectures, but with other lectures. Now how this is different than a PBL case (as I said before), I'm not sure. Additionally, this is still occuring within the overall framework of a systems based curriculum. Hence from what we've been told (which I posted earlier), it sounds like systems based curriculum with PBL features. Now, one thing to keep in mind is that when we hear PBL, we think of the vet school which is on a full PBL/no lecture curriculum. This is what we were told explicitly that we were not going to. Similarly, comparing this change to IPE is really a non-starter.
I get that, the problem, though, is that year 1-4 isn't connected to year 5-7+ except in the sense that you have to complete 1-4 someplace. The problem with the 7 year number is that the first 1-4 years can be completed at any medical school. It's like complaining about changes in curriculum in undergrad programs because it's the start of an 11+ year education plan, even though years 1-4, 5-8, 9-11+ aren't connected past needing to complete one set before the next set.
ok I just got off the phone with one of COMP's Counselors. She was very helpful.
About the curriculum....
There will be no changes to the current curriculum but rather an addition to it. The original system-based curriculum still stands where we go into lecture and do all the fun stuff but then there will be a class where a physician comes in and gives us a case for us to go over. She said it's more of a "Case Based Learning" instead of "Problem-based Learning"...whatever that means.
So again...she told me the new curriculum will not change to PBL and I wouldn't even say PART PBL, but rather an addition of PBL to the current system-based style of learning.
I am just relaying what my counselor told me. hope this helps.
About the curriculum....
There will be no changes to the current curriculum but rather an addition to it. The original system-based curriculum still stands where we go into lecture and do all the fun stuff but then there will be a class where a physician comes in and gives us a case for us to go over. She said it's more of a "Case Based Learning" instead of "Problem-based Learning"...whatever that means.
So again...she told me the new curriculum will not change to PBL and I wouldn't even say PART PBL, but rather an addition of PBL to the current system-based style of learning.
I am just relaying what my counselor told me. hope this helps.
Haha wow... a lot of **** has been going down...
As a first year at western rounding down the year trying to find something to help me procrastinate, I'll give you the quick and dirty.
Dress Code: Nothing has been set in stone. No one is sure what the dean will do. No matter what the students say, it wont make a real difference. Think about it, you can cry, bitch, or whatever, because you know you wont drop out of Western and there is no chance in transfering. If it happens it happens.
Curriculum: Its not truely PBL. They are making it more clinical in a sense because you will truely retain more information that way. You also don't have to go to your groups if you don't want to, you can do everything independently. It also more guided and directed. You will not be left out in the cold like a true PBL. Also you will still have lectures on top of your group/case studying.
As for the curriculum, its been tried and true at other schools supposedly, but we'll see how it works out here. I personally like the idea since some of the lecturers suck and they overwhelm you with information that isn't board relevant or even going to help you in your clinicals.
As a first year at western rounding down the year trying to find something to help me procrastinate, I'll give you the quick and dirty.
Dress Code: Nothing has been set in stone. No one is sure what the dean will do. No matter what the students say, it wont make a real difference. Think about it, you can cry, bitch, or whatever, because you know you wont drop out of Western and there is no chance in transfering. If it happens it happens.
Curriculum: Its not truely PBL. They are making it more clinical in a sense because you will truely retain more information that way. You also don't have to go to your groups if you don't want to, you can do everything independently. It also more guided and directed. You will not be left out in the cold like a true PBL. Also you will still have lectures on top of your group/case studying.
As for the curriculum, its been tried and true at other schools supposedly, but we'll see how it works out here. I personally like the idea since some of the lecturers suck and they overwhelm you with information that isn't board relevant or even going to help you in your clinicals.
Helpful yes, thanks. It sounds like a lot of semantic spinning, though. If they are reducing the number of lectures and then adding PBL cases for group and independent work, then that is a form of problem-based learning by definition. It sounds disingenuous to me to say that they are making those changes--clearly getting away from a traditional lecture curriculum--but then say that it is not even part PBL.
By the way, isn't a case the same thing as a problem in medical terms? I mean, a case is a problem right? Again, just sounds like semantics to me because PBL is a dirty word for many people. I know people who turned down USC dental a couple years ago because of PBL. (please let's not get into the USC dental is not worth the tuition debate!)
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All I have to say is that I feel sorry for the incoming first years and us, the returning second year students. A lot of this stuff was dropped on us like a bomb. Although, I am for the curriculum change, it did me no good to sit in lecture for more than 4+ hours a day.
If you still have options, you can drop out and change to a different school, otherwise, sucks to be us. The school does not care about the opinions of the students when it comes to certain things.
At least the class of 2015 will definitely know whats up and will be able to get full input from 1st and 2nd years. (However we still wont see the full affects of the curriculum change until the 2016 or 2017 class can see board scores.)
If you still have options, you can drop out and change to a different school, otherwise, sucks to be us. The school does not care about the opinions of the students when it comes to certain things.
At least the class of 2015 will definitely know whats up and will be able to get full input from 1st and 2nd years. (However we still wont see the full affects of the curriculum change until the 2016 or 2017 class can see board scores.)
Eh.
I personally chose WCOMP in part because the faculty seemed to be constantly looking for ways to improve the curriculum / educational methods.
Frankly, this move to incorporate case-based elements within a systems-based frame is not surprising to me. During the video that the 2014'ers watched at the interview visit, it seemed like they were already doing this. I definitely remember some of the students in the video discussing having to research a case and present it to a professor.
I also think that, dress code aside, this curriculum change reasonably fairly takes into account student and administrative wishes. Students, as well as prospective students, at COMP seem to commonly express a positive attitude towards lessened lecture hours. However, due to (from what I've heard) declining student attendance, a few lecture sessions have been designated as mandatory. Given the potential for having large lecture sessions, using small group sessions as a form of office hours seems great to me. Although I would appreciate official communication from the school, I don't perceive this curriculum change as being offensively radical.
Also, viciouz, your post count is 666. Just thought I'd point that out.
I see that books and supplies are listed at $3,727 for the entering class. Do most students actually spend this much or are some of the things optional?
How many angry students do we think there will be at orientation week? Students who don't read this and show up thinking that their med school will be what they were told at info sessions, interview day, by Western OMS2 students, westernu.edu, etc... I realize some students will like the change, some won't care, but some will be pretty angry after giving up other options.
We were supposed to buy books? From my experience, the only books you really need are Netters Atlas and, maybe, Color Atlas of Anatomy (Rohan, AKA the "Dead Body Book"). What may help also is Neuroscience because one of the professors will pull lecture questions straight from the text... 🙁
So... what is the $3,700+ supposed to cover?
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I chose COMP for the location, non-PBL curriculum, lack of dress code and lack of mandatory attendance - not counting OMM and labs. I turned down schools that were cheaper (LECOM) or nicer facilities (NSU) because of those factors.
So you need to ask during interview whether any of those factors will change during your time in school. Because it doesn't matter what you feel, if they want to change it, they will. And as the above poster said - what are you gonna do if you don't like it - transfer? A couple of my classmates did, but pretty rare to pull it off.
When I was at COMP we went through three Deans before stopping at the admiral. He wasn't my favorite. My favorite was the first one, who was ousted. Don't ask the admin, ask the students, about the school.
So you need to ask during interview whether any of those factors will change during your time in school. Because it doesn't matter what you feel, if they want to change it, they will. And as the above poster said - what are you gonna do if you don't like it - transfer? A couple of my classmates did, but pretty rare to pull it off.
When I was at COMP we went through three Deans before stopping at the admiral. He wasn't my favorite. My favorite was the first one, who was ousted. Don't ask the admin, ask the students, about the school.
Books which are "required" but not tested from nor do most students buy them.
I got off the waitlist! 😀 😀
Good luck Everyone!!!!
Aaaah my heart literally just skipped a beat! Congratulations!! You were on the regular waitlist, and not a deferred waitlist or something?
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