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What about the med schools in Serbia? How do we rate in Europe and US?
What about Serbia?
- Thread starter drduda
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if you don't mind me asking, why are you considering serbia? it wouldn't be very good unless you have relatives, or roots, or some sort of relation with the country....
if you're considering europe, then it's best that you consider UK, Ireland, Scotland and also the central european countries (Poland, Czech Republic, and Hungary). If you're fluent in any european language, you could consider studying in that country too.....
but i personally wouldn't advice bulgaria, ukraine, serbia, and the other eastern european countries coz i've heard that they don't have standard medical facilities (and the language barrier is even worse). Croatia might be an exception.
if you're considering europe, then it's best that you consider UK, Ireland, Scotland and also the central european countries (Poland, Czech Republic, and Hungary). If you're fluent in any european language, you could consider studying in that country too.....
but i personally wouldn't advice bulgaria, ukraine, serbia, and the other eastern european countries coz i've heard that they don't have standard medical facilities (and the language barrier is even worse). Croatia might be an exception.
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My question goes in opposite direction. I come from Serbia, physicians degree, work knowledge of 2 years in emergency department. If I would consider working in some other European country or US, what would I need to do to make that happen. I understand that it could be a great problem for US but I am interested anyhow. Any information is of great importance for me.
well if you do your medical program in the serbian language, then it shouldn't be much of a problem to go to the US. Because most of the european medical program (which are offered in their own native languages) are CA approved and so entitle these students to work in any of the 50 US states. But you still have to prepare for the USMLEs are do really well if you wanna be in a good specialty. The problem arises if you wanna do an english medical program (like me) as very few of them are CA approved (fortunately my univ. has a CA approval for both the english and the czech programs).
but there are quite a few doctors who've studied in the europe in the native language (either because they are natives of the country or because they've learned the language) and they've successfully settled in the US. If I were you, I would go to the CA approval site and check which serbian medical univs. are listed.
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You see I work in Emergency department in Serbia. Often I hear that medicine in so called Eastern European countries is not on the highest level. I strongly disagree. Joust because we are not in the European union (and we will be), dos not mean that we are some third world country. Serbia is one of those countries that have physicians in ambulances. Ambulances have emergency medicine specialist- physician, nurse and driver (who is educated in BLS and all needed skills). This kind of organization is more appropriate than EMT if you think of the patient and not the money. I've mentioned the money because that is the only reason (it costs too much to have physician in the field) why other countries have only EMT-s. Pre-hospital administration of thrombolytics in ACS is not the only but I should say reason enough if you think of the time saved and benefit for the patients outcome. That is just one thing and there are other. I do not have to call ED and ask if I may give medications….. It goes on and on. And we are working under AHA and ERC guidelines from 2005, as well as we are continuously monitoring development in all areas of our interest.
To be frank not everything is so great, but in this post I chose to present just one small part of the good things there are. I just want to learn more.
If you have any comment I would be glad to read it.
To be frank not everything is so great, but in this post I chose to present just one small part of the good things there are. I just want to learn more.
If you have any comment I would be glad to read it.
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Honestly, no one in the US knows or cares about med school in Serbia. 99% of physicians here know nothing about Serbia, other than that there was a war there over a decade ago. Most will assume it's a third world country, regardless of whether it's true or not. Even if you went to the best med school in Serbia, it will look no different than if you went to the worst Serbian med school to a program director here. There are very few universities that US physicians are familiar with that are outside of the US. A couple in Germany (Heidelberg comes to mind) and the UK/Ireland probably have decent reputations, but I don't think many physicians could even find Serbia on a map.
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i don't get it...what's the point of posting this link? first of all this is an ivy-league school and second of all, how is this relevant for doing medical school in serbia. there are many unvs. in the US which offer serbo-croatian and many other eastern european language courses but that has nothing to do with the medical program...they'll still treat the country as a third-world country (as there aren't many serbian or other eastern european grads. with an exception of croatia--as croatia is soon going to be CA approved and has a few partnership agreements with some of the american medical univs.
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With all do respect, it seams that you do not understand what I wanted to say. To tell you the truth I do not care if you can not find my country on the map, you missed the point. It is not the country that meters it is the people, my colleagues and how they practice medicine.
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I`ll tell you there`s a lot of prejudice on East European countries around the world but it`s all well within reason - they just don`t know too much about us. The USA has always been xenophobic towards foreigners working in high-risk environments such as medical care and that`s understandable too.
If you`re not adamant on going to work in the United States there are a lot of programs funded by the EU that offer practice to students from around the world. One such program is ERASMUS which is unfortunately only limited to students within the boundaries of the Union.
If you contact this email - [email protected] you can learn more about programs that may apply to your situation. Luciano Saso is coordinator of the ERASMUS program held in the University of Roma.
Prejudice in other countries is something that every foreigner has to deal with. It applies to Americans working abroad just as well. The same applies to the image Serbian or Bulgarian (in my case) universities have around the world.
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And you missed my point. Mine was not to insult you, but to be honest with you. The majority don't know about your country, and don't know anything about how well medicine is taught over there. This is the truth, and not one I'm proud of. I respect all doctors from Serbia and know they receive excellent training. Do doctors in the US all know this? No.
If people can't find your country on the map, do you expect them to know anything about how medical education is delivered over there? Not to mention there is lots of whispering among potential American medical students looking to go to Europe for their education that Serbian med schools hav ea lot of corruption, i.e. you pay your professor for him to pass you. I'm sure this is false information, but these rumors do spread regardless.
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I guess that I did not like to hear the truth, but as you live there and I do not, I have to believe you. I am sorry that we have that kind of reputation and I am not insulted, it is ok. However, we are not the ones to be blamed. I have studied hard to get my doctors diploma. That is 6 years in University of Medicine. Sometimes 20 hours a day. Every exam (40) has two or three parts and professors are not forgiving. After you pass all the exams, you have one more year of clinical practice. One great problem comes after all that. You have to wait for about 2-3 years to get a job, and if you are lucky, you get to be a volunteer in a clinic in that period so that your knowledge does not evaporate.
As for the corrupted professors there are some and that is slowly but surely going to history. Now you can report any misconduct and it is ok for you to do that.
Someone said ignorance is bliss. I mean that if you do not know something, you cannot have opinion on the matter as you have studied or even worked here and vice versa that goes for me too. You see, as much as I would like to learn more about your education, I would like to share my experience with you.
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I appreciate your interest in our system and I am interested in yours as well. I think it's quite amazing your ambulances have physicians in them. I'm sorry to disappoint you that Serbia is not highly regarded in the states, but I guess that's just the nature of the beast, so to speak. I believe when you are as rich a country as the US, and are basically the #1 powerhouse in the world for medical research, you step on a lot of people on the way there. Being at the top often makes one arrogant, and I don't believe the US is immune to that.
There are many Serbian doctors here, I'm sure, and all are very capable at their profession, since they would have to take the USMLE licensing exam and complete their training here. I'm sure many doctors here respect Serbian doctors, although they will really give no second though to their training. A school in the Congo is the same as a school in Serbia is the same as a school in Indonesia to most people here. We are for the most part unfamiliar with the system, and many around the world are unfamiliar with ours.
As far as our system, if you aren't familiar with it, goes like so:
Students graduate high school at around age 18. They then enter an undergraduate university, where they study for 4 years in any subject they like. During those 4 years, regardless of the faculty they study in, they must take 1 year of general chemistry, 1 year of organic chemistry, 1 year of biology, 1 year of physics, and for some schools, 1 year of English and 1 year of calculus or some sort of math. More schools now are requiring biochemistry. Students usually take the MCAT (Medical College Admissions Test) in the spring of their 3rd year in university. This test is composed of mostly scientific and literature passages that involve physics, organic & general chemistry, biology, and literature. The average score of all test-takers is a 24 (I believe), and the average of the students who get accepted to medical school is much higher, around a 30 to 31.
After they graduate in 4 years with a bachelors degree, they enter medical school. The average grade point average (GPA) of students to get in is a 3.6-3.7 out of a 4.0. As I said, the average MCAT score is a 30-31. In addition, 99% of students have many hours of volunteer and leadership experience both on and off campus. Although students may have studied in any faculty during undergraduate education, the majority have a bachelors degree in biology, biochemistry, or chemistry these days.
Medical education is 4 years in the US. The first two years comprise of didactic courses, which include: physiology, biochemistry, anatomy, pharmacology, genetics, microbiology, etc. The final two years of medical school consists of learning in the hospital. Students rotate through hospitals for certain amounts of time in different fields. For example, students will spend 12 weeks in internal medicine, 12 weeks in surgery, 6 weeks in OB/GYN, 6 weeks in psychiatry, 6 weeks in family medicine, etc. There are usually a few months where students may do elective rotations in any field they are most interested in (plastic surgery, ophthalmology, cardiology, dermatology, orthopedic surgery, etc.).
After a student graduates from medical school, they are a doctor. However, they cannot get a license or work yet! So the degree is essentially worthless until the student completes a residency. Residencies range from 3 years minimum (internal medicine, family medicine), 5 years (orthopedic surgery, otolaryngology, radiology, radiation oncology, etc.), to 7 years (some general surgery programs have 5 years of surgery and 2 years of research attached, neurosurgery). After a residency, some students wish to further specialize. After 3 years of internal medicine, students can apply for a further 3 years of training in subspecialties like: cardiology, gastroenterology, pulmonology, allergy & immunology, etc. During residency, the law states a resident can not work more than 80 hours average per week. This is a law on paper only, though, because many residents still work well over 100 hours per week, many times working for a couple of days straight through with no rest. Whether this system is in need of an overhaul if a topic of much debate. Most European countries have much lower working hours, closer to 50-60 hours per week.
So, the length of education is:
4 years undergraduate university
4 years medical school
3-7 years residency
1-3 years fellowship
So a student entering university at age 18 who wants to become a neurosurgeon with a fellowship in spine surgery could be 34 years old before s/he finally gets out of school! Or to be a cardiologist, they would be about 32 years old before they leave school and residency training.
There are many Serbian doctors here, I'm sure, and all are very capable at their profession, since they would have to take the USMLE licensing exam and complete their training here. I'm sure many doctors here respect Serbian doctors, although they will really give no second though to their training. A school in the Congo is the same as a school in Serbia is the same as a school in Indonesia to most people here. We are for the most part unfamiliar with the system, and many around the world are unfamiliar with ours.
As far as our system, if you aren't familiar with it, goes like so:
Students graduate high school at around age 18. They then enter an undergraduate university, where they study for 4 years in any subject they like. During those 4 years, regardless of the faculty they study in, they must take 1 year of general chemistry, 1 year of organic chemistry, 1 year of biology, 1 year of physics, and for some schools, 1 year of English and 1 year of calculus or some sort of math. More schools now are requiring biochemistry. Students usually take the MCAT (Medical College Admissions Test) in the spring of their 3rd year in university. This test is composed of mostly scientific and literature passages that involve physics, organic & general chemistry, biology, and literature. The average score of all test-takers is a 24 (I believe), and the average of the students who get accepted to medical school is much higher, around a 30 to 31.
After they graduate in 4 years with a bachelors degree, they enter medical school. The average grade point average (GPA) of students to get in is a 3.6-3.7 out of a 4.0. As I said, the average MCAT score is a 30-31. In addition, 99% of students have many hours of volunteer and leadership experience both on and off campus. Although students may have studied in any faculty during undergraduate education, the majority have a bachelors degree in biology, biochemistry, or chemistry these days.
Medical education is 4 years in the US. The first two years comprise of didactic courses, which include: physiology, biochemistry, anatomy, pharmacology, genetics, microbiology, etc. The final two years of medical school consists of learning in the hospital. Students rotate through hospitals for certain amounts of time in different fields. For example, students will spend 12 weeks in internal medicine, 12 weeks in surgery, 6 weeks in OB/GYN, 6 weeks in psychiatry, 6 weeks in family medicine, etc. There are usually a few months where students may do elective rotations in any field they are most interested in (plastic surgery, ophthalmology, cardiology, dermatology, orthopedic surgery, etc.).
After a student graduates from medical school, they are a doctor. However, they cannot get a license or work yet! So the degree is essentially worthless until the student completes a residency. Residencies range from 3 years minimum (internal medicine, family medicine), 5 years (orthopedic surgery, otolaryngology, radiology, radiation oncology, etc.), to 7 years (some general surgery programs have 5 years of surgery and 2 years of research attached, neurosurgery). After a residency, some students wish to further specialize. After 3 years of internal medicine, students can apply for a further 3 years of training in subspecialties like: cardiology, gastroenterology, pulmonology, allergy & immunology, etc. During residency, the law states a resident can not work more than 80 hours average per week. This is a law on paper only, though, because many residents still work well over 100 hours per week, many times working for a couple of days straight through with no rest. Whether this system is in need of an overhaul if a topic of much debate. Most European countries have much lower working hours, closer to 50-60 hours per week.
So, the length of education is:
4 years undergraduate university
4 years medical school
3-7 years residency
1-3 years fellowship
So a student entering university at age 18 who wants to become a neurosurgeon with a fellowship in spine surgery could be 34 years old before s/he finally gets out of school! Or to be a cardiologist, they would be about 32 years old before they leave school and residency training.
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I have a question for your, Dr. Duda, if you don't mind. How does one become a specialist in your country (neurosurgeon, for example)? Do medical students take an exam at the end of their studies, and those that score highest choose the specialty they want? Or is there another way to determine who becomes a general practicioner and who becomes a surgeon? Also, which specialties are most competitive to get into?
If you're wondering, the way we determine who gets specialties here is a complicated process. After the second year of medical school, students take the USMLE exam. It tests all the basic sciences learned in the first two years of medical school. Scores range from the 180s (I believe this is barely passing) to a 280 or so (maybe 1 or 2 people in the entire country get this score; it is 99.99999999th percentile). The average is around 220-230 I believe.
The most competitive specialties here, from most competitive down to least competitive, are roughly as follows:
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology
Urology
Otolaryngology
Radiation Oncology
Neurosurgery
Ophthalmology
Radiology
Orthopedic Surgery
Emergency Medicine
Anesthesiology
General Surgery
Neurology
Obstetrics & Gynecology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Internal Medicine
Psychiatry
Family Medicine
Also, I think it is a shame that doctors aren't well paid in Serbia. I suppose the one reason that might be more acceptable, though, is you don't have to pay much to attend medical school? Is education free, like in Scandinavia? Many American doctors have about USD $250,000 (RSD $13,374,000 according to www.xe.com) in debt by the time they graduate from university and medical school! This is why it's essential for physicians to make enough money to pay back their loans and still be able to raise a family and afford a home.
If you're wondering, the way we determine who gets specialties here is a complicated process. After the second year of medical school, students take the USMLE exam. It tests all the basic sciences learned in the first two years of medical school. Scores range from the 180s (I believe this is barely passing) to a 280 or so (maybe 1 or 2 people in the entire country get this score; it is 99.99999999th percentile). The average is around 220-230 I believe.
The most competitive specialties here, from most competitive down to least competitive, are roughly as follows:
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology
Urology
Otolaryngology
Radiation Oncology
Neurosurgery
Ophthalmology
Radiology
Orthopedic Surgery
Emergency Medicine
Anesthesiology
General Surgery
Neurology
Obstetrics & Gynecology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
Internal Medicine
Psychiatry
Family Medicine
Also, I think it is a shame that doctors aren't well paid in Serbia. I suppose the one reason that might be more acceptable, though, is you don't have to pay much to attend medical school? Is education free, like in Scandinavia? Many American doctors have about USD $250,000 (RSD $13,374,000 according to www.xe.com) in debt by the time they graduate from university and medical school! This is why it's essential for physicians to make enough money to pay back their loans and still be able to raise a family and afford a home.
hey drduda, i'm really sorry. i did not mean to insult you in any way. I'm sure Serbia has got some really excellent medical schools and i'm sure serbian medical grads. must be successfully practising in any other european countries. I just don't think there are many of them in the US; but again I might be wrong. I do understand that med school is med school everywhere; students have to work hard no matter what and that i guess is what matters the most. I was just saying that if one wants to go back to the US, then it would be hard to get back (as with studying in Ukraine, Russia, or Latvia etc.). I'm really sorry once again. I didn't mean to insult your medical education system in any way whatsoever.
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Let us see
..
It s not so hard to get to University medical school if you have best scores in previous years of education and do great on exams.
You see, here you start school at age 6 or 7. You have 8 years of elementary school and than you choose high school you want to go. You can apply to more than one high school and your scores from elementary school combined with scores from exams you have to take before acceptance (in serbian language and mathematics), will determine your ranking on definite list.
It would be wise to try to get to (there is no right translation for this but I will try to explain as good as I can) gimnazija and that is 4 year school where you can get best professors and great education in biology, physics, mathematics, serbian language, chemistry, history, geography, foreign language (english, german, franch, russian), music, sports, .. You do not get to chose what subjects you will take, you have to pass them all (and with a best grades) because it will mater when you apply for med school. There is down side in taking this school. When you finish you must go to university because there is no job you can do with this kind of broad education. Sounds irrational, but many take this high school because it gives them opportunity to do well in their further university education in any area they want (electronics, economy, social sciences, .).
You can go to high school for nurses and med technicians (4 years, same subjects plus anatomy, patient care ). When you finish you can try to get a job (and you will probably be able to do that), or apply for university med school.
All can apply for med school no matter which 4 year school they took. Max score you take from previous education is 40pt. You take exam in biology (max 30pt) and chemistry (max 30pt), in one day lasts two hours. It would be best if you get over 85pt, cause that would probably put you in the group of student that do not have to pay for school. One number of those that are below the line as we say, are accepted too but they have to pay about 2000$ per academic year. There are several cities here that have med school and the number of accepted students depends on that how big is the university. Belgrade is of course the biggest.
And that is when it all begins .
Need coffee, Ill be back in a minute
It s not so hard to get to University medical school if you have best scores in previous years of education and do great on exams.
You see, here you start school at age 6 or 7. You have 8 years of elementary school and than you choose high school you want to go. You can apply to more than one high school and your scores from elementary school combined with scores from exams you have to take before acceptance (in serbian language and mathematics), will determine your ranking on definite list.
It would be wise to try to get to (there is no right translation for this but I will try to explain as good as I can) gimnazija and that is 4 year school where you can get best professors and great education in biology, physics, mathematics, serbian language, chemistry, history, geography, foreign language (english, german, franch, russian), music, sports, .. You do not get to chose what subjects you will take, you have to pass them all (and with a best grades) because it will mater when you apply for med school. There is down side in taking this school. When you finish you must go to university because there is no job you can do with this kind of broad education. Sounds irrational, but many take this high school because it gives them opportunity to do well in their further university education in any area they want (electronics, economy, social sciences, .).
You can go to high school for nurses and med technicians (4 years, same subjects plus anatomy, patient care ). When you finish you can try to get a job (and you will probably be able to do that), or apply for university med school.
All can apply for med school no matter which 4 year school they took. Max score you take from previous education is 40pt. You take exam in biology (max 30pt) and chemistry (max 30pt), in one day lasts two hours. It would be best if you get over 85pt, cause that would probably put you in the group of student that do not have to pay for school. One number of those that are below the line as we say, are accepted too but they have to pay about 2000$ per academic year. There are several cities here that have med school and the number of accepted students depends on that how big is the university. Belgrade is of course the biggest.
And that is when it all begins .
Need coffee, Ill be back in a minute
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It is 6 years, 43 exams:
1. Molecular & Human Genetics
2. Medical Ethics & medical sociology
3. Medical informatics
4. Anatomy
5. Histology & Embryology
6. Physical education (optional)
7. Intro to clinical practice
8. Foreign language (optional)
9. Basics of immunology
10. Social medicine & medical statistics
11. Elective
12. Physiology
13. Biochemistry
14. Basics of clinical practice
15. Microbiology
16. Pathology
17. Pathophysiology
18. Pharmacology
19. Internal medicine
20. Elective
21. Infectious Diseases
22. Epidemiology
23. Radiology
24. Clinical Biochemistry
25. Elective
26. Psychiatry with medical psychology
27. Dermatovenerology
28. Nuclear medicine
29. Neurology
30. Hygiene
31. Pediatrics
32. Gynecology & Obstetrics
33. Surgery
34. Occupational Medicine
35. Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
36. Elective
37. Ophthalmology
38. Otorhinolaryngology
39. Maxillofacial Surgery
40. Oncology
41. Emergency Medicine
42. Family Medicine
43. Forensic Medicine
Electives
First Aid
Intro to investigational work
Medical Genetics
Clinical Microbiology
Neurosciences
Clinical Immunology
Clinical Pharmacology
Clinical Anatomy
Transfusiology
Geriatrics
Prenatal & Neonatal medicine
Dietetics
Clinical Pathology
Anesthesiology with reanimation
Optional
Physical education
1. Molecular & Human Genetics
2. Medical Ethics & medical sociology
3. Medical informatics
4. Anatomy
5. Histology & Embryology
6. Physical education (optional)
7. Intro to clinical practice
8. Foreign language (optional)
9. Basics of immunology
10. Social medicine & medical statistics
11. Elective
12. Physiology
13. Biochemistry
14. Basics of clinical practice
15. Microbiology
16. Pathology
17. Pathophysiology
18. Pharmacology
19. Internal medicine
20. Elective
21. Infectious Diseases
22. Epidemiology
23. Radiology
24. Clinical Biochemistry
25. Elective
26. Psychiatry with medical psychology
27. Dermatovenerology
28. Nuclear medicine
29. Neurology
30. Hygiene
31. Pediatrics
32. Gynecology & Obstetrics
33. Surgery
34. Occupational Medicine
35. Physical Medicine & Rehabilitation
36. Elective
37. Ophthalmology
38. Otorhinolaryngology
39. Maxillofacial Surgery
40. Oncology
41. Emergency Medicine
42. Family Medicine
43. Forensic Medicine
Electives
First Aid
Intro to investigational work
Medical Genetics
Clinical Microbiology
Neurosciences
Clinical Immunology
Clinical Pharmacology
Clinical Anatomy
Transfusiology
Geriatrics
Prenatal & Neonatal medicine
Dietetics
Clinical Pathology
Anesthesiology with reanimation
Optional
Physical education
I will answer about specialization. But this shoul be enough for now.
A, yes, tuition for Students of Serbian Citizenship who want to take classes in english: 3,000 ( about US $2,000) per academic year. Tuition for International Students is US $10,000 per academic year.
A, yes, tuition for Students of Serbian Citizenship who want to take classes in english: 3,000 ( about US $2,000) per academic year. Tuition for International Students is US $10,000 per academic year.
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I am a Bulgarian who lives in the United States. The so call "gimnazija" is the high school in the States. In that part of the world the high school education is/was excellent. We don't have colleges because all college subjects are covered in high school. Then we have to take entry exams to get to a Medical, Dental, Law schools and so on.
Dr. Duda, I completely understand what you want to tell people with your posts.
And I know very well how difficult is to become a neurosurgeon there. Most of my friends in Bulgaria were doctors and dentists.
Dr. Duda, I completely understand what you want to tell people with your posts.
And I know very well how difficult is to become a neurosurgeon there. Most of my friends in Bulgaria were doctors and dentists.
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@_@ prices in Serbia are way too high - here in BG my first semester in pharmacy cost me around 300 USD. Also exams here are probably way harder since we have 5 astronomical hours per exam and they`re in separate days.
The biology exam consists of around 60 topics from the high-school level of biology education. Three of them are drawn in the morning of the exam and in writing that makes for at least 9-10 sheets of paper on both sides. In the 4-5 hours you have you have to write them all. Any mistake is severely sanctioned.
The chemistry exam consists of 25 topics of which just one is drawn but you also have to do 3 chemical written tasks out of a previously available list of 300. These tasks given they are more structural (equations more than text) take up 2-3 sheets of paper each. Again you have 5 hours for that - 8 in the morning until 1 pm.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w123/inurl/DSC05051.jpg?t=1195830233
These are some writings of mine on a single topic of chemistry - Structure of the atom core - hence you can see the isotopes of hydrogen listed in the upper left part and an orbital cell in the lower left Actually the two sheets on the right are on biology and the red ink is sensei`s writings telling me whatever details I`ve missed if any.
The biology exam consists of around 60 topics from the high-school level of biology education. Three of them are drawn in the morning of the exam and in writing that makes for at least 9-10 sheets of paper on both sides. In the 4-5 hours you have you have to write them all. Any mistake is severely sanctioned.
The chemistry exam consists of 25 topics of which just one is drawn but you also have to do 3 chemical written tasks out of a previously available list of 300. These tasks given they are more structural (equations more than text) take up 2-3 sheets of paper each. Again you have 5 hours for that - 8 in the morning until 1 pm.
http://i175.photobucket.com/albums/w123/inurl/DSC05051.jpg?t=1195830233
These are some writings of mine on a single topic of chemistry - Structure of the atom core - hence you can see the isotopes of hydrogen listed in the upper left part and an orbital cell in the lower left
Actually the two sheets on the right are on biology and the red ink is sensei`s writings telling me whatever details I`ve missed if any.do you guys have medical latin/greek terminology in the 1st yr. at Belgrade medical univ.? and how long is the serbian course? what about the language barrier? how bad is it in reality? how are the medical facilites in the hospitals and in the univ.? I'm jst randomly inquiring as i have a cousin who wants to come to europe for her medical school.
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I am a medical student in Nis, Serbia. I know that the Belgrade University is a lot better institution than the Nis University but i will try to present you the state of my univ.
We basically have the same subjects as the Belgrade but the attitude and corruption are a lot worse.
Children of Professors and Doctors working in the University Clinical Center are considered Doctors as soon as they enroll in medical schools. Those "special" students are viewed as untouchable b/c even a single wrong word around them can cost you your medical education. I have never heard that one of those untouchables did bad on an exam or failed an exam. The other group is semi-untouchables which consist of: students whose parents work in a different clinic or hospital but still have good connections with the professors and students distally related to some of the faculty staff. The third group are the students paying for passing their exams. Exams run from 300-1000 euro(E), for example anatomy is 600E, physiology is 500E and pathology 500E etc.
About 30% of the students are untouchables, another 20% are semi-untouchables and 20% are "paying customers" So that leaves only about 30% of people who are really studying(struggling).
Preclinical subjects are pretty good since they offer you a lot of knowledge about basic medical sciences, but sadly most of that is unusable in real clinical practice.
Clinical subjects are summed up in a couple of statements: completely unorganized, lacking patient-student interaction, no clinical skills learnt.
Clinical subjects all have the same "organization": lectures + "clinical work".
Lectures are: boring and 90% of the time unattended by the professors and the students.
Example: Surgery has more than 50 instructors(assistants, assistant professors, professors, etc.). But only about 10 of them bother to hold lectures and only about 5 of them supervise/provide/teach "clinical work" to the students. The others are only there to receive their teaching paychecks even though they don`t do any teaching.
"Clinical work" is theoretically about 10-20 hours a week but as stated previously students are lucky if they have 2 hours of "clinical work" every week.
"Clinical work" consists only of the following part(s): taking H & P.
That's right, no tests can be ordered or suggested by the students, no procedures can be done by the students(not even drawing blood), no diagnosis can made by the students, etc. And the Physical means only: inspection, palpation, auscultation, percussion.
So now let's summarize all of this:
A medical student that is about to graduate,providing that he is a studying/struggling medical student, only knows how to do an H&P, make a guess-diagnosis from the massive amount of theory he poured into himself(Internal Medicine Books) and make a guess-treatment(Pharmacology Books). Only about 1% or less of those students can suture a wound and let's say drain a small skin abscess. And about 30% of those students can start an IV or draw blood thanks to their previous medical high school education. All of these facts count only in the case of a studying/struggling medical student. But if we are talking about the other three majority groups(untouchable, semi-untouchable and paying customer) chances are they have never seen the insides of a medical ward except maybe as patients.
And if you are a S/S medical student and trying to learn some clinical skill by shadowing professors and other doctors outside of your "clinical work" you might end up with a lot of swears directed at you. Of about 1200 students at my Medical School I only know 3 students(counting me) who are shadowing professors. And i have been mistreated so many times that i had to stop counting. Some of those examples are: being sworn at, being yelled at, being physically thrown out of the emergency department, being asked to leave the ER, being escorted out of the clinical center.
And thats not all folks. I forgot to mention that there are 100s of doctors waiting for a residency or a job for over 10 years some of whom have graduated with a 10 out of 10 average. Oh yes and if you really want to get a residency and a job you will need to pay about 15'000E. The untouchables get a job at the same moment they finish medical school. There have been some instances where the untouchables got their residencies and employment even before they graduated. Most notably the Dean's son.
Here are some of the examples of the untouchable medical students with a 10/10 average:
What is infRaction(she meant myocardial infarction)?
What is ischemia(4th year medical student)?
My microscope is broken, everything is blurred(third year medical student in pathology class, she is also a histology demonstrator and one of the most powerfull untouchables(mom, dad, grandfather, aunt, etc. are professors at the medical school), after that she realized that she need to use the focus on the microscope).
And then he pushed the needle in the bone and pulled out some gooey looking thing(Third year untouchable referring to the bone marrow biopsy she just saw).
What is an aneurysm(6th year medical student)?
We basically have the same subjects as the Belgrade but the attitude and corruption are a lot worse.
Children of Professors and Doctors working in the University Clinical Center are considered Doctors as soon as they enroll in medical schools. Those "special" students are viewed as untouchable b/c even a single wrong word around them can cost you your medical education. I have never heard that one of those untouchables did bad on an exam or failed an exam. The other group is semi-untouchables which consist of: students whose parents work in a different clinic or hospital but still have good connections with the professors and students distally related to some of the faculty staff. The third group are the students paying for passing their exams. Exams run from 300-1000 euro(E), for example anatomy is 600E, physiology is 500E and pathology 500E etc.
About 30% of the students are untouchables, another 20% are semi-untouchables and 20% are "paying customers" So that leaves only about 30% of people who are really studying(struggling).
Preclinical subjects are pretty good since they offer you a lot of knowledge about basic medical sciences, but sadly most of that is unusable in real clinical practice.
Clinical subjects are summed up in a couple of statements: completely unorganized, lacking patient-student interaction, no clinical skills learnt.
Clinical subjects all have the same "organization": lectures + "clinical work".
Lectures are: boring and 90% of the time unattended by the professors and the students.
Example: Surgery has more than 50 instructors(assistants, assistant professors, professors, etc.). But only about 10 of them bother to hold lectures and only about 5 of them supervise/provide/teach "clinical work" to the students. The others are only there to receive their teaching paychecks even though they don`t do any teaching.
"Clinical work" is theoretically about 10-20 hours a week but as stated previously students are lucky if they have 2 hours of "clinical work" every week.
"Clinical work" consists only of the following part(s): taking H & P.
That's right, no tests can be ordered or suggested by the students, no procedures can be done by the students(not even drawing blood), no diagnosis can made by the students, etc. And the Physical means only: inspection, palpation, auscultation, percussion.
So now let's summarize all of this:
A medical student that is about to graduate,providing that he is a studying/struggling medical student, only knows how to do an H&P, make a guess-diagnosis from the massive amount of theory he poured into himself(Internal Medicine Books) and make a guess-treatment(Pharmacology Books). Only about 1% or less of those students can suture a wound and let's say drain a small skin abscess. And about 30% of those students can start an IV or draw blood thanks to their previous medical high school education. All of these facts count only in the case of a studying/struggling medical student. But if we are talking about the other three majority groups(untouchable, semi-untouchable and paying customer) chances are they have never seen the insides of a medical ward except maybe as patients.
And if you are a S/S medical student and trying to learn some clinical skill by shadowing professors and other doctors outside of your "clinical work" you might end up with a lot of swears directed at you. Of about 1200 students at my Medical School I only know 3 students(counting me) who are shadowing professors. And i have been mistreated so many times that i had to stop counting. Some of those examples are: being sworn at, being yelled at, being physically thrown out of the emergency department, being asked to leave the ER, being escorted out of the clinical center.
And thats not all folks. I forgot to mention that there are 100s of doctors waiting for a residency or a job for over 10 years some of whom have graduated with a 10 out of 10 average. Oh yes and if you really want to get a residency and a job you will need to pay about 15'000E. The untouchables get a job at the same moment they finish medical school. There have been some instances where the untouchables got their residencies and employment even before they graduated. Most notably the Dean's son.
Here are some of the examples of the untouchable medical students with a 10/10 average:
What is infRaction(she meant myocardial infarction)?
What is ischemia(4th year medical student)?
My microscope is broken, everything is blurred(third year medical student in pathology class, she is also a histology demonstrator and one of the most powerfull untouchables(mom, dad, grandfather, aunt, etc. are professors at the medical school), after that she realized that she need to use the focus on the microscope).
And then he pushed the needle in the bone and pulled out some gooey looking thing(Third year untouchable referring to the bone marrow biopsy she just saw).
What is an aneurysm(6th year medical student)?
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The question is are your patients satisfied.... u prevodu da li su tvoji pacijenti zadovoljni? Ako malo bolje razmislis postajes lekar zbog pacijenata a ne zbog kolega. Kolege ne moras da volis ali sa njima moras da saradjujes.
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@drduda
I understand your opinion but I haven't got the slightest chance of getting a residency or a job after I graduate. No one in my family is an MD so there is absolutely no possible way of me getting a job here. And even though I am still a student I have treated and diagnosed quite a few patients, under direct supervision of my clinical mentor(not professor), and I believe that those patients were satisfied, luckily no mortalities or iatrogenic morbidities. And yes this might seem a little weird to you but i "begged" for a permission from my dean(mislim na prodekana) to volunteer after my clinical classes and i got the permission and got a mentor who has, after examining my clinical knowledge and skills, allowed me to treat and diagnose patients who are under his care but only after he reviews and signs on everything. Znam da je cudno ali koliko sam saznao od prodekana ja sam jedini slucaj na celom Fakultetu ali zato imam preko 100h u sali i preko 1000h klinickog rada.
I understand your opinion but I haven't got the slightest chance of getting a residency or a job after I graduate. No one in my family is an MD so there is absolutely no possible way of me getting a job here. And even though I am still a student I have treated and diagnosed quite a few patients, under direct supervision of my clinical mentor(not professor), and I believe that those patients were satisfied, luckily no mortalities or iatrogenic morbidities. And yes this might seem a little weird to you but i "begged" for a permission from my dean(mislim na prodekana) to volunteer after my clinical classes and i got the permission and got a mentor who has, after examining my clinical knowledge and skills, allowed me to treat and diagnose patients who are under his care but only after he reviews and signs on everything. Znam da je cudno ali koliko sam saznao od prodekana ja sam jedini slucaj na celom Fakultetu ali zato imam preko 100h u sali i preko 1000h klinickog rada.
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Hi,everyone,I am young doctor,specialist from Macedonia.I finished my pediatric spec. 3 years ago and I am working at NICU(neonatal intensiv care unit).Yes,I read everything and I am very sorry abot that.First of all-my medical school in Skopje and my spec. are very difficalt.Also the medical school in Belgrade,Zagreb, Ljubljana(Ex-YU countries).Someone said Zagreb-Croatia are better...Come one...They are equal like all other Ex_Yu med.school.Nothing more,nothing less.Ljubljana perhaps better,but only becouse standard for living there is biger and equipment is most expensive.We are practicing very good,we use the Australian protocols as one of the best,but also we use US and European protocols.If you ask me how I get the job-very difficult.Clinical Centar is the most wonted destination for many young doctors-I worked 6 years without salary.I was good student-9 from 10 is my average mark.Now I am working for 500 euro per mounth,but it is not bad,becouse my best friend is waiting for med.job 8 years
.And as a conclusion we are not country from a 3-rd world
and I am working at NICU(neonatal intensiv care unit).Yes,I read everything and I am very sorry abot that.First of all-my medical school in Skopje and my spec. are very difficalt.Also the medical school in Belgrade,Zagreb, Ljubljana(Ex-YU countries).Someone said Zagreb-Croatia are better...Come one...They are equal like all other Ex_Yu med.school.Nothing more,nothing less.Ljubljana perhaps better,but only becouse standard for living there is biger and equipment is most expensive.We are practicing very good,we use the Australian protocols as one of the best,but also we use US and European protocols.If you ask me how I get the job-very difficult.Clinical Centar is the most wonted destination for many young doctors-I worked 6 years without salary.I was good student-9 from 10 is my average mark.Now I am working for 500 euro per mounth,but it is not bad,becouse my best friend is waiting for med.job 8 years.And as a conclusion we are not country from a 3-rd world- Joined
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Hi,everyone,I am young doctor,specialist from Macedonia.I finished my pediatric spec. 3 years ago and I am working at NICU(neonatal intensiv care unit).Yes,I read everything and I am very sorry abot that.First of all-my medical school in Skopje and my spec. are very difficalt.Also the medical school in Belgrade,Zagreb, Ljubljana(Ex-YU countries).Someone said Zagreb-Croatia are better...Come one...They are equal like all other Ex_Yu med.school.Nothing more,nothing less.Ljubljana perhaps better,but only becouse standard for living there is biger and equipment is most expensive.We are practicing very good,we use the Australian protocols as one of the best,but also we use US and European protocols.If you ask me how I get the job-very difficult.Clinical Centar is the most wonted destination for many young doctors-I worked 6 years without salary.I was good student-9 from 10 is my average mark.Now I am working for 500 euro per mounth,but it is not bad,becouse my best friend is waiting for med.job 8 years.And as a conclusion we are not country from a 3-rd world
and I am working at NICU(neonatal intensiv care unit).Yes,I read everything and I am very sorry abot that.First of all-my medical school in Skopje and my spec. are very difficalt.Also the medical school in Belgrade,Zagreb, Ljubljana(Ex-YU countries).Someone said Zagreb-Croatia are better...Come one...They are equal like all other Ex_Yu med.school.Nothing more,nothing less.Ljubljana perhaps better,but only becouse standard for living there is biger and equipment is most expensive.We are practicing very good,we use the Australian protocols as one of the best,but also we use US and European protocols.If you ask me how I get the job-very difficult.Clinical Centar is the most wonted destination for many young doctors-I worked 6 years without salary.I was good student-9 from 10 is my average mark.Now I am working for 500 euro per mounth,but it is not bad,becouse my best friend is waiting for med.job 8 years.And as a conclusion we are not country from a 3-rd world- Joined
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I have to writte this in my native language, sorry.
Dragi kolega, najvaznije je da ti nastavis sa svojom edukacijom, naravno najbolje moguce u odnosu na okolnosti koje su pred tobom. Ako ti je malo lakse ni ja nisam dete doktora ni profesora. Fakultet sam zavrsila "na misice", ali sam imala blisku rodjaku koja je tvoju bolest prelezala pre mene pa mi je prenela imunitet (gledala je kolege sa pedigreom koji protrcavaju pored nje polazuci ispite dok ona predano uci), tako da ja nisam morala da gubim zivce. Naucis da ti to nije vazno. Njima ce sa druge strane postati mnogo vazno onda kada njihovi pacijenti pocnu da upiru prstom u njih. Zaista, pacijent je jedino vazan. Tvoje znanje koje ces da iskoristis i satisfakciju koju ces da osetis nakon dobro obavljenog posla niko ne moze da ti oduzme, niko. Glavu gore.
Dragi kolega, najvaznije je da ti nastavis sa svojom edukacijom, naravno najbolje moguce u odnosu na okolnosti koje su pred tobom. Ako ti je malo lakse ni ja nisam dete doktora ni profesora. Fakultet sam zavrsila "na misice", ali sam imala blisku rodjaku koja je tvoju bolest prelezala pre mene pa mi je prenela imunitet (gledala je kolege sa pedigreom koji protrcavaju pored nje polazuci ispite dok ona predano uci), tako da ja nisam morala da gubim zivce. Naucis da ti to nije vazno. Njima ce sa druge strane postati mnogo vazno onda kada njihovi pacijenti pocnu da upiru prstom u njih. Zaista, pacijent je jedino vazan. Tvoje znanje koje ces da iskoristis i satisfakciju koju ces da osetis nakon dobro obavljenog posla niko ne moze da ti oduzme, niko. Glavu gore.
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Hi. I am an undergrad in the US thinking about leaving and going to Belgrade for medical school. Though I am doing well in my classes (3.9/4.0 GPA), I feel hopeless when I look at all the other requirements of admission committees. I am in my second year now (finishing pre-requirements this semester) and so far have had only one semester of volunteering, no research, and no physician shadowing (other than my family members). I do believe I can achieve an MCAT score in the 33-36 range by the end of the summer. Even so, I lose hope when seeing how much research, publishing, and volunteering others have accomplished in addition to an academic record like mine.
What this all gets down to is the question about going to Serbia. I do know the language (though there is an English program) and am familiar with the country. My concern is about coming back to the US - would other physicians and colleagues look down on me as an American who had to seek medical education elsewhere. (1) Going to Serbia (as an American) to study medicine and (2) a Serbian (non-American) going to the US to practice are two quite different cases. And naturally, there should be no reason to doubt the competency and intellect of the person in the second case. But the first case, I feel, would create doubt in that person's intellectual ability in the eyes of others. I do not know how to overcome that fear of what other people would think of me when I return to the US...
What this all gets down to is the question about going to Serbia. I do know the language (though there is an English program) and am familiar with the country. My concern is about coming back to the US - would other physicians and colleagues look down on me as an American who had to seek medical education elsewhere. (1) Going to Serbia (as an American) to study medicine and (2) a Serbian (non-American) going to the US to practice are two quite different cases. And naturally, there should be no reason to doubt the competency and intellect of the person in the second case. But the first case, I feel, would create doubt in that person's intellectual ability in the eyes of others. I do not know how to overcome that fear of what other people would think of me when I return to the US...
Hey Pantelich, I would strongly advise you to keep american/canadian medical schools as your top priority. If not then try for UK/Australia/New Zealand (although their medical programs are as expensive as the american ones).
I would recommend going to Serbia or even thinking of a European medical school this point because you're doing quite well and you seem quite confident and motivated about the MCATs. If you do go to Serbia (or any other European medical university), you will definitely not be treated the same as opposed to having an american medical degree. The boards will definitely see why you quit undergrad and went randomly when you're grades were actually good.
And secondly you don't get as many residency options as you would if you're a European medical grad who wants to go back to the US.
I would recommend going to Serbia or even thinking of a European medical school this point because you're doing quite well and you seem quite confident and motivated about the MCATs. If you do go to Serbia (or any other European medical university), you will definitely not be treated the same as opposed to having an american medical degree. The boards will definitely see why you quit undergrad and went randomly when you're grades were actually good.
And secondly you don't get as many residency options as you would if you're a European medical grad who wants to go back to the US.