M
mmerzouk
I know this is a pre-DO site, but I hope the person who started this post made a slight typing error. I am sure he/she meant what are the average salaries for General Surg, or ENT, or OB/GYN, or Fam Med, or IM, or GI, or Pulm, or Cardiothoracic Surg, or . . .is my point coming through?? To ask the question of DO's only is kind of "stupid". Your $$ has NOTHING, NOTHING, NOTHING (wanted to make sure you understand) to do with the letters DO or for that matter MD.
Now that I have changed the post to a reasonable one. . . you can go to many sites and look up average salaries for fields of medicine. This info is everywhere!!
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ob/gyn wannabe
Now that I have changed the post to a reasonable one. . . you can go to many sites and look up average salaries for fields of medicine. This info is everywhere!!
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ob/gyn wannabe
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So is insulting someone for merely asking a question.
When I saw this topic posted I was interested in seeing what kind of responses it would get. The response is as expected. Everyone says they are the same, but no one posts any numbers. Outside of antidotal information, does anyone have any proof, links to DO specific numbers? I've looked. I can't find any. You are obviously infinitely more knowledgable on this issue than I, mmerzouk, so please educate me by posting the data.
mj
PS Have you ever noticed how all the salary surveys are very careful to note they are MD numbers?
[This message has been edited by mj (edited 09-17-2000).]
R
RDJ
You can find your answer here: http://stats.bls.gov/oco/ocos074.htm
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"Physicians have among the highest earnings of any occupation. According to the American Medical Association, median income, after expenses, for allopathic physicians was about $164,000 in 1997. The middle 50 percent earned between $120,000 and $250,000 a year. "
This is the salary information listed with the above link. Note the key word ALLOPATHIC. There is also a table listing salaries by specialties for MDs. This site talks MD and DO as one all the way through the site right up until salary info. Then it becomes "MD salaries", "allopathic physcians"...
A good illustration of my PS. Thanks anyway RDJ.
mj
This is the salary information listed with the above link. Note the key word ALLOPATHIC. There is also a table listing salaries by specialties for MDs. This site talks MD and DO as one all the way through the site right up until salary info. Then it becomes "MD salaries", "allopathic physcians"...
A good illustration of my PS. Thanks anyway RDJ.
mj
M
mmerzouk
gee, here we go!!
the wonderful info you put in your post is of course MD stats; uhmm, put out by the AMA.
makes since to me.
kind of like hearing a lecture during ground rounds and all the studies include drug X. you think, wow drug X must be some drug. then, much to your suprise the pharm rep is sitting way in the back not saying a word. of course the info is true, but limited to the one who "foots the bill"
so, the fact still remains the average $$ depends on your field of med not two letters.
the wonderful info you put in your post is of course MD stats; uhmm, put out by the AMA.
makes since to me.
kind of like hearing a lecture during ground rounds and all the studies include drug X. you think, wow drug X must be some drug. then, much to your suprise the pharm rep is sitting way in the back not saying a word. of course the info is true, but limited to the one who "foots the bill"
so, the fact still remains the average $$ depends on your field of med not two letters.
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Staying with your analogy, however, I wouldn't expect the drug rep. in the back of the room to speak to the effectiveness of the same drug that is produced by another company. I suppose you could take that analogy one step further and say that the generic of drug X (I.E. the DO physician) probably cost less.
The fact does not remain that "the average $$ depends on your field of med not two letters", because you haven't proved it as a fact yet. It's merely conjecture on your part.
The argument that all physicians are paid the same regardless of any other factors but specialty is illogical. Even within specialties salaries vary according to prejudicial factors such as gender. I read an article a few months ago about salary inequality for female internist. The average female makes $12 an hour less (that's about $40,000 a year) than the average male even when you control for things like subspecialty, part time working and length of time employed. Link:
http://www.annals.org/issues/v133n2/toc.html
Why don't you believe that similar disparities could exist with DOs? I don't necessarily do, but I don't have any proof that they don't either.
Again, if you have AOA data (or any other numbers for that matter) showing DO salary's, POST it. Otherwise you are just speculating, so stop calling other people's questions "stupid"
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okay, are you saying that a D.O. would accept less money for doing the exact same job? I know many many D.O.'s who work in physician groups side by side with M.D.'s. Does anyone think that the D.O. who comes to work and does the EXACT same thing is going to make LESS? Have you ever thought the reason for a lack of D.O. specific salaries is that there is no need to do a survey. You've already got a million of them. THey're the same as the M.D salaries. Talk with D.O.'s they will tell you that they make the same.
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Women physcians, who do the exact same thing side by side males, accept less money all the time. So yes, it is not that big of a leap to think this could happen with DOs also.
If there is no need to do a survey that includes DOs, why so blatently reference that it is an MD only survey? I would also think that it would be in the AOA's "we're all the same" best interest to have conducted their own survey.
Don't get me wrong. I'm not a die hard believer that they are different. But I'm certainly not going to call anyone who questions if they are stupid, and I really would like to see the numbers.
mj
V
Vegeta
"I would also think that it would be in the AOA's "we're all the same" best interest to have conducted their own survey."--previously posted by mj.
mj:
Here's are several bright ideas: make a telephone call to the AOA, write to the AOA, or E-mail the Public Relations division of the AOA in order to acquire a satisfactory response concerning the information that you're interested in--the average salaries for American D.O.s.
I've seen you waste a lot of energy on this messageboard because you've grown accustomed to posting without first describing a reasonable premise; your contribution to this topic is a fair example of that.
You're actually under the impression that the AOA would meticulously conduct a survey of the salaries of an expansive number of U.S. practicing D.O.s, and then post that data to the internet with the intent of demonstrating that D.O.s are similarly qualified as M.D.s because they fall within the same income bracket?
The best doctors don't necessarily make the most money, do they (or conversely: the worst doctors don't necessarily make the least money)? Don't M.D.s and D.O.s provide the same patient care?
If you elected to write the AOA (or the AMA, for that matter) instead of sharing your thoughtless plea for an internet source of D.O. salaries on this messageboard, you'd get a response similar to the following: Physicians are paid on the basis of the services they provide. Since many more M.D.s can be found in Specialty areas of Medicine, and Specialty services are more costly than Primary Care visits (Specialty physicians would understandably receive a larger fraction of such costs of treatment), the total M.D. salaries would be higher than the total D.O. salaries (based on the fact that more D.O.s practice in Primary Care fields). However, both M.D.s and D.O.s provide the same services within particular specialties; an Allopathic Radiologist and an Osteopathic Radiologist would stand to acquire very similar annual incomes.
mj:
Here's are several bright ideas: make a telephone call to the AOA, write to the AOA, or E-mail the Public Relations division of the AOA in order to acquire a satisfactory response concerning the information that you're interested in--the average salaries for American D.O.s.
I've seen you waste a lot of energy on this messageboard because you've grown accustomed to posting without first describing a reasonable premise; your contribution to this topic is a fair example of that.
You're actually under the impression that the AOA would meticulously conduct a survey of the salaries of an expansive number of U.S. practicing D.O.s, and then post that data to the internet with the intent of demonstrating that D.O.s are similarly qualified as M.D.s because they fall within the same income bracket?
If you elected to write the AOA (or the AMA, for that matter) instead of sharing your thoughtless plea for an internet source of D.O. salaries on this messageboard, you'd get a response similar to the following: Physicians are paid on the basis of the services they provide. Since many more M.D.s can be found in Specialty areas of Medicine, and Specialty services are more costly than Primary Care visits (Specialty physicians would understandably receive a larger fraction of such costs of treatment), the total M.D. salaries would be higher than the total D.O. salaries (based on the fact that more D.O.s practice in Primary Care fields). However, both M.D.s and D.O.s provide the same services within particular specialties; an Allopathic Radiologist and an Osteopathic Radiologist would stand to acquire very similar annual incomes.
jeez, what is all this fighting about? why do we just agree that both MD's and DO's make enough money to buy a german sports car, a sailboat, and take yearly vacations to aspen, that is good enough for me!
M
mmerzouk
Originally posted by mj:
Staying with your analogy, however, I wouldn't expect the drug rep. in the back of the room to speak to the effectiveness of the same drug that is produced by another company
this is too funny!!!
man, have you ever been to the kind of lectures i am speaking of?? see, let me explain. . .
for example, i just went to one on isolated systolic hptn. the point of the studies is not to compare generic vs brand names(come on what a waist of time)! but to compare diuretics (which is commonly used for IShypertension) to B-blockers to Ca channel blockers. actually i do not think i have ever been to a lecture which someone got up there and said "the generic form of the drug is no good" do you even know what generic form of drugs are?
oh. . .this is pointless. sorry for waisting everyone's time trying to explain my point.
merzouk MSIV
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Holy moly! You'd think I said DO students are all touchy MD wannabes or something
As to your claim, Vegeta that I "first describe a reasonable premise", how about this one: There is no supporting evidence that I have seen (besides anecdotal) that shows DOs and MDs make the same salary across specialties. The argument that "well of course they make the same thing because they do the same work" is heavily negated by the fact that several recent studies show that male and female MD's who do the same work are NOT paid equally. A LOGICAL deduction would be that DOs, who like women are minority physicians, are also NOT paid equally.
Or how about:
Pompous MSIVs without proof to support their view shouldn't call other peoples' questions stupid.
I like that one best.
As to your claim, Vegeta that I "first describe a reasonable premise", how about this one: There is no supporting evidence that I have seen (besides anecdotal) that shows DOs and MDs make the same salary across specialties. The argument that "well of course they make the same thing because they do the same work" is heavily negated by the fact that several recent studies show that male and female MD's who do the same work are NOT paid equally. A LOGICAL deduction would be that DOs, who like women are minority physicians, are also NOT paid equally.
Or how about:
Pompous MSIVs without proof to support their view shouldn't call other peoples' questions stupid.
I like that one best.
M
mmerzouk
since i am the one who started this time waisting thing with this mj person i will try my best, for the sake of the network, to end it. i put the word stupid in "" because i was using the term lightly. i oculd have said goofy, that would have explained myself better, maybe. therefore, i conclude that i used the word inpropperly, and for that am sorry.
is the coast clear now??
to answer the original post with proof, as our wonderful friend mj would like, i have never tried to find $$ for DO's only. this month is a pretty easy one for me, so to please mj, if i have the time, i will look.
is the coast clear now??
to answer the original post with proof, as our wonderful friend mj would like, i have never tried to find $$ for DO's only. this month is a pretty easy one for me, so to please mj, if i have the time, i will look.
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How much to D.O.s make?
According to This University website affiliated with LECOM
http://www.gannon.edu/PROGRAMS/UNDER/lecom.html
about $60,000 for a starting physician
"The annual starting salary for an osteopathic physician is $60,000 with the average doctor's salary being $125,000 a year."
You premeds kill me, arguing over salaries! There is information and there is misinformation. I'll let you decide that after reading the posted info of the above website.
Just the data!
[This message has been edited by cholecalciferol (edited 09-19-2000).]
According to This University website affiliated with LECOM
http://www.gannon.edu/PROGRAMS/UNDER/lecom.html
about $60,000 for a starting physician
"The annual starting salary for an osteopathic physician is $60,000 with the average doctor's salary being $125,000 a year."
You premeds kill me, arguing over salaries! There is information and there is misinformation. I'll let you decide that after reading the posted info of the above website.
Just the data!
[This message has been edited by cholecalciferol (edited 09-19-2000).]
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I just visited the above site and it does say that starting Osteopathic Physicians do earn 60000 vs Doctors who earn 125000.
However, I just came back from shadowing with a DO who works in a practice with MDs and earns the same rate the MD counterparts do, in fact the MD's come to the DO and vice versa for consultations as equal professional peers often do. I also asked the Doc about residency and pay and was told that most of the starting physicians that were in the program, both DO and MD were represented, earned between 30000-40000 a year. This seems like a situation of odd or poor wording on the part the Webmaster. Of the physicians that I have talked with over the past two year they have consistently informed me that there is no difference between the two paths, including pay, except what the individual brings to the profession.
If you have questions about the Website the number to the school is 1800GANNONU.
However, I just came back from shadowing with a DO who works in a practice with MDs and earns the same rate the MD counterparts do, in fact the MD's come to the DO and vice versa for consultations as equal professional peers often do. I also asked the Doc about residency and pay and was told that most of the starting physicians that were in the program, both DO and MD were represented, earned between 30000-40000 a year. This seems like a situation of odd or poor wording on the part the Webmaster. Of the physicians that I have talked with over the past two year they have consistently informed me that there is no difference between the two paths, including pay, except what the individual brings to the profession.
If you have questions about the Website the number to the school is 1800GANNONU.
M
mmerzouk
just one more thought. . .
i have no idea where the site came from; though i do not have "proof" the figures are wrong, i believe/know they are!
if you know anything about med, you will have to agree. for example, a general surg in private practice gets paid via billing insurance companies. there is a usually a set rate for office visits, procedures. . . so forth. this is where the $$ comes from. yeah, rates may differ from one insurance to the other, but there is no differance from DO/MD/female/male DR's. now, if you are hired by the hospital (which now even ER dr's bill their own), where they have a set $$, i can not tell you if there are differances.
basically, i have not found the energy to find such "proof" that we DO's are paid differant from MD's when i can just talk to the attendings and ask for myself.
oh, looking into salaries for residency DO/MD, they are pretty much the same. . .mid 30's.
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ob/gyn wannabe
i have no idea where the site came from; though i do not have "proof" the figures are wrong, i believe/know they are!
if you know anything about med, you will have to agree. for example, a general surg in private practice gets paid via billing insurance companies. there is a usually a set rate for office visits, procedures. . . so forth. this is where the $$ comes from. yeah, rates may differ from one insurance to the other, but there is no differance from DO/MD/female/male DR's. now, if you are hired by the hospital (which now even ER dr's bill their own), where they have a set $$, i can not tell you if there are differances.
basically, i have not found the energy to find such "proof" that we DO's are paid differant from MD's when i can just talk to the attendings and ask for myself.
oh, looking into salaries for residency DO/MD, they are pretty much the same. . .mid 30's.
------------------
ob/gyn wannabe
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It doesn't really matter anyway. Once youngjock is elected president everyone will be working for free
But at least I'll still have mmerzouk as my friend...lol...Thank you mmerzouk for your generous offer.
mj
But at least I'll still have mmerzouk as my friend...lol...Thank you mmerzouk for your generous offer.
mj
Hey all,
I'm a D.O., but I'm more into computers and education at the moment.
Actually the $60K figure may make sense from one angle: many D.O.'s practice as GPs, and GPs earn substantially less than even FPs. I know that the world is full of anecdotes, but, I'll add another; one?s specialty and geographical location are the most significant factors regarding one?s salary (surgery/cardiology plus the southeast = big $$).
The magazine, ?Medical Economics? is probably the most authoritative source on this issue.
My advice: please, please, please read Thomas Stanley's "The Millionaire Next Door" and "The Millionaire Mind." I just read these books, and I wish I had earlier. (Both best sellers, should be at Amazon/local bookstore.) Both of these books point to differences in income vs. wealth: the two are not necessarily the same. You might also be surprised to find out that wealth building in America is more a function of one?s frugality than salary. I wish these books were required reading at UC San Diego for a Biochemistry degree?
In any event, good luck getting in to either allopathic or osteopathic schools. Both are noble professions, and truly a privilege.
I wish you the best.
Done being sappy.
Out.
.
I'm a D.O., but I'm more into computers and education at the moment.
Actually the $60K figure may make sense from one angle: many D.O.'s practice as GPs, and GPs earn substantially less than even FPs. I know that the world is full of anecdotes, but, I'll add another; one?s specialty and geographical location are the most significant factors regarding one?s salary (surgery/cardiology plus the southeast = big $$).
The magazine, ?Medical Economics? is probably the most authoritative source on this issue.
My advice: please, please, please read Thomas Stanley's "The Millionaire Next Door" and "The Millionaire Mind." I just read these books, and I wish I had earlier. (Both best sellers, should be at Amazon/local bookstore.) Both of these books point to differences in income vs. wealth: the two are not necessarily the same. You might also be surprised to find out that wealth building in America is more a function of one?s frugality than salary. I wish these books were required reading at UC San Diego for a Biochemistry degree?
In any event, good luck getting in to either allopathic or osteopathic schools. Both are noble professions, and truly a privilege.
I wish you the best.
Done being sappy.
Out.
.
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I hate to bring up spilt milk long past the bridge, but I stumbled on some figures that could put an end to this age-old argument.
Go to this interesting article. It sums up what all doctors will be facing in the future.
site:http://me.pdr.net/me/public.htm?path=content/journals/m/data/2000/0918/0c_earn.html
Sorry, I don't know how to insert a hyperlink.
Go to this interesting article. It sums up what all doctors will be facing in the future.
site:http://me.pdr.net/me/public.htm?path=content/journals/m/data/2000/0918/0c_earn.html
Sorry, I don't know how to insert a hyperlink.
