What are the average MedSchool Dropout rates?

[guptaso2]

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I've heard that at MSU, 1 student has dropped out in the last 5 years and something similar about WashU St. Louis. Is this true? Is this common among most medical schools?

 

[shnjb]

I remember reading that 5% drop out or something like that.

 

[EndSong]

Most med schools have a very low drop out rate, hovering somewhere around 1-3%. Reasons:

1) Students are already in debt by the time they drop out after a year, in the tens of thousands.

2) Investing in a student is a large investment and schools don't like to see their investments go to waste, they are very supportive.

3) There's already been a lot of screening to get in, most of the fat has been cut.

 

[guptaso2]

You guys know of any place that posts the official numbers?

 

[Law2Doc]

The national allo rate is something like 4.5% dropping out and 1.5% failing out. So it's not unusual for a school to have negligible attrition.

 

[braluk]

Each school with have their own statistics on dropping out but typically, drop-out rates are extremely low, 2-4% is a good estimate for a school (which ends up being like 1-2 students for most normally sized classes). It's not that hard to finish medical school once you get in (which is hte hard part). Most grades are typically pass/high pass/honors, all you really have to do is pass (or get an equivalent C- on everything). Granted you might not garner your top residencies, but the demand for doctors is great enough that you will find a residency to work in irregardless.

 

[SoCuteMD]

Each school with have their own statistics on dropping out but typically, drop-out rates are extremely low, 2-4% is a good estimate for a school (which ends up being like 1-2 students for most normally sized classes). It's not that hard to finish medical school once you get in (which is hte hard part). Most grades are typically pass/high pass/honors, all you really have to do is pass (or get an equivalent C- on everything). Granted you might not garner your top residencies, but the demand for doctors is great enough that you will find a residency to work in irregardless.

I would just like to say that "Getting in is the hard part" is a blatant lie told to make pre-meds feel better. Med school is exhausting and demanding - far more so than the application process. However, schools tend to work with struggling students so that they can pass - however, these struggling students will also be busting tail to keep up.

As someone who earned two C's at a very demanding college - one in Calc II and one in pchem, I can tell you that earning a C in medical school is a very different ballgame than earning a C in undergrad.

 

[QuantumMechanic]

Each school with have their own statistics on dropping out but typically, drop-out rates are extremely low, 2-4% is a good estimate for a school (which ends up being like 1-2 students for most normally sized classes). It's not that hard to finish medical school once you get in (which is hte hard part). Most grades are typically pass/high pass/honors, all you really have to do is pass (or get an equivalent C- on everything). Granted you might not garner your top residencies, but the demand for doctors is great enough that you will find a residency to work in irregardless.

there you go using irregardless again 😉

 

[braluk]

there you go using irregardless again 😉

sorry sorry, i mean unregardinglessness 😉

 

[calcox]

sorry sorry, i mean unregardinglessness 😉

That's so funny. On my MCAT writing sample, towards the end of one of the essays, I first wrote regardless and then in a fit of stress changed it to irregardless! I had never used the word irregardless in my life and probably never will again. Of course I agonized about it all the way up until I got my score...

 

[braluk]

Yeah i used it in my MCAT too lmao, but i ended up with an S, so I guess its one of those words thats loosely exchanged. If Im not mistaken, I think regardless is the correct usage of the word?

 

[Hassler]

I would just like to say that "Getting in is the hard part" is a blatant lie told to make pre-meds feel better. Med school is exhausting and demanding - far more so than the application process. However, schools tend to work with struggling students so that they can pass - however, these struggling students will also be busting tail to keep up.

As someone who earned two C's at a very demanding college - one in Calc II and one in pchem, I can tell you that earning a C in medical school is a very different ballgame than earning a C in undergrad.

I don't agree with that. It seems to me that getting in is more difficult than staying in. Med school (at least the 1st 2 yrs) is just memorization. If you put in the effort to memorize stuff, it's really hard for you to fail.

On the other hand, there are so many things that are beyond your control in med school admissions. Even if you have good stats, there are no guarantees to getting in. That's why I think it's harder to get in than to stay in.

 

[honker]

I don't agree with that. It seems to me that getting in is more difficult than staying in. Med school (at least the 1st 2 yrs) is just memorization. If you put in the effort to memorize stuff, it's really hard for you to fail.

On the other hand, there are so many things that are beyond your control in med school admissions. Even if you have good stats, there are no guarantees to getting in. That's why I think it's harder to get in than to stay in.

In general, I would agree, but the sheer volume of information to be mastered is overwhelming to some, especially those who have not developed good study habits. As I have suggested in other posts, learning biochem, genetics, and maybe human physiology can really help ease the burden.

 

[GreyBlueEyes]

Yeah i used it in my MCAT too lmao, but i ended up with an S, so I guess its one of those words thats loosely exchanged. If Im not mistaken, I think regardless is the correct usage of the word?

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/irregardless

technically, irregardless isn't a word at all and is most often used by people who don't know any better or who are trying to be funny 😉 it's definitely not considered correct grammar.

 

[braluk]

Nah, Ive been lectured on it before by some other poster way back. I just like using the word, it makes me sound fake intelligent to those who dont know that irregardless is not a word 😉

 

[SoCuteMD]

I don't agree with that. It seems to me that getting in is more difficult than staying in. Med school (at least the 1st 2 yrs) is just memorization. If you put in the effort to memorize stuff, it's really hard for you to fail.

On the other hand, there are so many things that are beyond your control in med school admissions. Even if you have good stats, there are no guarantees to getting in. That's why I think it's harder to get in than to stay in.

You are a first year...just you wait

 

[Jalopycat]

Getting in is the EASY part. I used to think it was the hard part until I actually started med school and I quickly learned how misled I was. MS1 for me was the most difficult time in my life.

Residency is also extremely difficult, but in a much different way.

Don't kid yourself in thinking that life gets easier once you get in.

 

[Law2Doc]

If you put in the effort to memorize stuff, it's really hard for you to fail.

Depends on your med school. It's hard to fail OUT, but not so hard to fail at many places. A non-negligible percentage have to retake courses or exams over their summers or even repeat whole years at a number of med schools. Other schools have deceleration options for people on the verge of failing. That it's perhaps hard to fail at your school is great, but you are extrapolating that to other schools inaccurately.

That being said, 90+% of matriculants do manage to finish med school successfully in 4 years. Some handilly, some, not so much.

As soon as med school starts, most people realize that the application phase was really the easy part. You still had time for a social life, still had time to mull choices. You have bigger tests than the MCAT and bigger interviews than med school ones looming in the distance for residency, so those kinds of pressures don't really end. And the choice of residency will have a greater impact on your life than your choice of med school, as it decides what you will be doing for the next 40 years, not 4.

 

[PugMD]

Harder to get in versus harder to stay in medical school: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=354193

 

[Wizard of Oz]

Nah, Ive been lectured on it before by some other poster way back. I just like using the word, it makes me sound fake intelligent to those who dont know that irregardless is not a word 😉

braluk, where is the coke bottle X-ray avatar that we've all come to know know and love?

 

[psipsina]

Getting in is the EASY part. I used to think it was the hard part until I actually started med school and I quickly learned how misled I was. MS1 for me was the most difficult time in my life.

Residency is also extremely difficult, but in a much different way.

Don't kid yourself in thinking that life gets easier once you get in.

I feel like its hard to fail out if you can manage to stay motivated. The faculty is really supportive and is trying to make you succeed instead of weeding you out like in undergrad. The issue is maintaining your motivation when faced with overwhelming amounts of material that you study endlessly to barely pass, or not even pass when you take an exam. You have to be really stubborn and just dig in sometimes when it feels pointless and you are lonely and tierd and feel like you are obviously ******ed because the information just wont stick. For some kids they just give up when faced with this. For others feeling like this makes them horribly depressed which is a whole other issue for them to deal with. Making it through medschool can be an emotional battle with yourself, and there are some casualties.

 

[Law2Doc]

I feel like its hard to fail out if you can manage to stay motivated. The faculty is really supportive and is trying to make you succeed instead of weeding you out like in undergrad. The issue is maintaining your motivation when faced with overwhelming amounts of material that you study endlessly to barely pass, or not even pass when you take an exam. You have to be really stubborn and just dig in sometimes when it feels pointless and you are lonely and tierd and feel like you are obviously ******ed because the information just wont stick. For some kids they just give up when faced with this. For others feeling like this makes them horribly depressed which is a whole other issue for them to deal with. Making it through medschool can be an emotional battle with yourself, and there are some casualties.

It's nearly impossible to "fail out" - there are many second chances. But, depending on the med school, perhaps not too hard to fail a test or even a course. I've known quite a few who fall into these latter categories.

 

[braluk]

braluk, where is the coke bottle X-ray avatar that we've all come to know know and love?

lmao i can put that back up after the new year, ive had a few people wonder about that. I just put up my pic for my avatar becuase old HS and college friends started contacting me after seeing me on these boards.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

It's nearly impossible to "fail out" - there are many second chances. But, depending on the med school, perhaps not too hard to fail a test or even a course. I've known quite a few who fall into these latter categories.

I think it depends on the school - I've heard of some pass/fail schools who have fairly liberal policies about letting students re-take a failed exam after re-studying the material. Not so at my school with a traditional grading system. At my place, one grade below a "C" and you're facing a summer of remediation - two grades below a "C" and you're done for the year - you have to repeat. I learned at my own school that drop-out rates do not include those who've had to repeat a year.

Nevertheless, I think about 95% of admitted students make it through one way or another. Of the students I've known of who didn't make it through, at least 2/3 were for personal reasons (depression, unable to manage the stress, family death or crisis, or physical illness) and only 1/3 or less were straight-up academic failure.

I'll get shot at for saying this, but I think failure rates may creep up. AAMC has raised their class expansion goals from 15% to 30%, and the only way to do that is to dip lower into the applicant pool than has been done in the past. I wouldn't argue that MCAT and GPA are no predictor at all of whether or not a student will make a good physician, but MCAT and GPA are a statistically-proven indicator of whether or not you're likely to survive the basic science years.

 

[Law2Doc]

I think it depends on the school - I've heard of some pass/fail schools who have fairly liberal policies about letting students re-take a failed exam after re-studying the material. Not so at my school with a traditional grading system. At my place, one grade below a "C" and you're facing a summer of remediation - two grades below a "C" and you're done for the year - you have to repeat. I learned at my own school that drop-out rates do not include those who've had to repeat a year.

Nevertheless, I think about 95% of admitted students make it through one way or another. Of the students I've known of who didn't make it through, at least 2/3 were for personal reasons (depression, unable to manage the stress, family death or crisis, or physical illness) and only 1/3 or less were straight-up academic failure.

I'll get shot at for saying this, but I think failure rates may creep up. AAMC has raised their class expansion goals from 15% to 30%, and the only way to do that is to dip lower into the applicant pool than has been done in the past. I wouldn't argue that MCAT and GPA are no predictor at all of whether or not a student will make a good physician, but MCAT and GPA are a statistically-proven indicator of whether or not you're likely to survive the basic science years.

I agree with much of your post, and note that folks who retake courses over the summer after getting below a C did not "fail out", they failed a course -- they get a second chance over that summer (perhaps followed by a third chance if they have to retake the year if the summer doesn't go well). That was my point.

It will be interesting to see if you are right about more people failing out in the future, but I kind of doubt it. The increases in classes are based on an anticipated increased need of residents, so schools will do what they can to help those folks muddle through. You may see more people struggling through in 5 years plus remedial summers rather than in the traditional 4 though. The bottom line truism is that people who get into med school are capable of coming out at the other end... eventually.

 

[Hassler]

You are a first year...just you wait

>_<

Errr.... I was referring to your statement ""Getting in is the hard part" is a blatant lie". I wasn't saying that you can't fail out of med school. Of course you can, if you don't study.

 

[Non-TradTulsa]

You may see more people struggling through in 5 years plus remedial summers rather than in the traditional 4 though.

Gosh, if we have a lot of people on the 5-years-plus-summers plan, maybe they'll get serious about spiraling tuition and the obscene rises in debt at graduation - that would be OK with me. As an old guy, I like to read the literature about medical education - there are a lot of serious proposals on the table right now about cutting medical school to 3 years, since - for some people - 4th year is electives and a fair amount of vacation time but a full year's worth of debt. Frankly, especially if class sizes are going to be greatly increased, I'd rather see them expand the basic sciences a little. Medical education is trying to get away from the "we'll beat the h*ll out of you to see if you can survive" model of education - and I've developed some strong opinions that it is not necessary to push us to our physical and emotional limits to get through the basic sciences in two years. Of course, there is also a general recognition that the amount of rote memorization in medical school should be decreased, but they've been talking about that for years and nobody's figured out how to do it yet. 🙂

 

[MedicineNutt]

Not too many fail or drop out...Adcoms do a good job in selecting people who are committed i guess.

 

[45408]

I don't agree with that. It seems to me that getting in is more difficult than staying in. Med school (at least the 1st 2 yrs) is just memorization. If you put in the effort to memorize stuff, it's really hard for you to fail.

It's also easy to bench press 500 pounds if you work out 5 times a week for 10 years. 🙄 The hard part is putting in the effort! I agree with the previous poster - "the hard part is getting in" is a not-so-little white lie told to pre-meds. The hard part is learning 1000 anatomical structures and being able to identify all of them from several different angles on any of 20 different cadavers.

 

[Law2Doc]

Gosh, if we have a lot of people on the 5-years-plus-summers plan, maybe they'll get serious about spiraling tuition and the obscene rises in debt at graduation - that would be OK with me. As an old guy, I like to read the literature about medical education - there are a lot of serious proposals on the table right now about cutting medical school to 3 years, since - for some people - 4th year is electives and a fair amount of vacation time but a full year's worth of debt. Frankly, especially if class sizes are going to be greatly increased, I'd rather see them expand the basic sciences a little. Medical education is trying to get away from the "we'll beat the h*ll out of you to see if you can survive" model of education - and I've developed some strong opinions that it is not necessary to push us to our physical and emotional limits to get through the basic sciences in two years. Of course, there is also a general recognition that the amount of rote memorization in medical school should be decreased, but they've been talking about that for years and nobody's figured out how to do it yet. 🙂

There are proposals about 3 years but I wouldn't call them "serious", at least not in allo. There is simply too much material that schools are already having to leave out to fit into 4 years. We simply know much more since the day when the 4 year model was started. I wouldn't be surprised if we didn't start to see earlier start dates and shortened summers instead.