What are the "competitive" residencies?

[Rogue42]

I am wondering what the "competitive" residencies are that are considered "out of reach" for DO grads?
For example; I want to be a general surgeon. Is general surgery considered too competitive for a DO grad? Im not asking specifically for that, but for all of them. Thanks in advance!!

(I am aware that if you score well, with great LORS, and publications then everything is within reach)

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[DNC127]

surgical subspecialties, derm, and rad onc pretty much

 

[Rogue42]

surgical subspecialties, derm, and rad onc pretty much

So what is considered a surgical subspecialty?

 

[ERDOC555]

So what is considered a surgical subspecialty?

Plastic Surgery
ENT
Vascular
Optho
Interventional Radiology (sort of)
Ortho
CT
Neurosurgery
Urology

Pretty much everything, except for General Surgery, although fellowships may be attainable for DOs after General Surgery to get into some of these fields specifically.

 

[DNC127]

So what is considered a surgical subspecialty?

what dermpire said. Basically, if you want any of the above mentioned specialties dont go to a DO school

 

[deleted600623]

What about any of the IM subspecialties?

 

[DNC127]

What about any of the IM subspecialties?

you see DOs matching all of them. Hardest is GI, so if you want GI or cards make sure you get into a decent academic IM spot

 

[Goro]

I am wondering what the "competitive" residencies are that are considered "out of reach" for DO grads?
For example; I want to be a general surgeon. Is general surgery considered too competitive for a DO grad? Im not asking specifically for that, but for all of them. Thanks in advance!!

(I am aware that if you score well, with great LORS, and publications then everything is within reach)

Based upon the Program Director's survey, these are the program that > 90% either never or seldom willing to rank/interview DOs:

Vascular Surgery
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology
Neurological Surgery
Otolaryngology
Orthopaedic Surgery

 

[deleted600623]

you see DOs matching all of them. Hardest is GI, so if you want GI or cards make sure you get into a decent academic IM spot

And I assume to do that, you need solid board scores and some research?

 

[DNC127]

And I assume to do that, you need solid board scores and some research?

Decent boards +/- research depending on the prestige of the residency
.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

In addition to the above I would also add that in basically any field if you are trying for a top program then you will be hard pressed to get there as a DO with some essentially impossible. The higher the prestige ladder you try to climb the more resistance you will meet.

You will need to be above average for general surgery but it is still a decently reasonable goal for a DO student.

 

[ClinPathDO]

Based upon the Program Director's survey, these are the program that > 90% either never or seldom willing to rank/interview DOs:

Vascular Surgery
Plastic Surgery
Dermatology
Neurological Surgery
Otolaryngology
Orthopaedic Surgery

Although there are quite a few AOA or former AOA orthopedic surgery residencies.

 

[DrMcCoyDO]

I’d say no specialties are out of reach; however, as many have already noted, there are many which are near impossible to match as a DO student. You would have to be top of your class and better than prospective MD candidates, and even then, there are no guarantees. However, if you do end up getting accepted to a DO school, don’t give up hope that you can match into something competitive; just know that you will have to work significantly harder than your classmates and have a back-up plan in place just in case.

 

[Goro]

I’d say no specialties are out of reach; however, as many have already noted, there are many which are near impossible to match as a DO student. You would have to be top of your class and better than prospective MD candidates, and even then, there are no guarantees. However, if you do end up getting accepted to a DO school, don’t give up hope that you can match into something competitive; just know that you will have to work significantly harder than your classmates and have a back-up plan in place just in case.

These are the fields which I consider DO friendly (where PDs will often rank/interview DOs):

Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

Some 25% of Thoracic and Gen Surg PDs will often rank/interview DOs.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

These are the fields which I consider DO friendly (where PDs will often rank/interview DOs):

Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

Some 25% of Thoracic and Gen Surg PDs will often rank/interview DOs.

Good list Goro, every incoming DO student should look at that list and know that there is a very very high probability they end up in one of those fields.

 

[Goro]

Good list Goro, every incoming DO student should look at that list and know that there is a very very high probability they end up in one of those fields.

People considering DO should NOT be surprised that the mission of the AOA/COCA is to train Primary Care docs.

 

[deleted600623]

Good list Goro, every incoming DO student should look at that list and know that there is a very very high probability they end up in one of those fields.

If that’s a list that DO students have a great shot at matching in, then sign me up.

 

[cliquesh]

If that’s a list that DO students have a great shot at matching in, then sign me up.

As a D.O., I agree with Goro's list.

 

[Fat_Albert]

Good list Goro, every incoming DO student should look at that list and know that there is a very very high probability they end up in one of those fields.

And MDs, right? Given they score average on boards

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And MDs, right? Given they score average on boards

For MDs gen surg is on that list. The big difference is that an MD with a 230 will have a much greater variety in the types of programs they can go to than a DO with a 230

 

[Fat_Albert]

For MDs gen surg is on that list. The big difference is that an MD with a 230 will have a much greater variety in the types of programs they can go to than a DO with a 230

Dang, that's not such a bad trade off then considering how most people hate gen surgery (from what I've read on here and reddit) and you match the same as 80-85% of MDs. Dunno why ppl on here complain so much about it

 

[mwsapphire]

Plastic Surgery
ENT
Vascular
Optho
Interventional Radiology (sort of)
Ortho
CT
Neurosurgery
Urology

Pretty much everything, except for General Surgery, although fellowships may be attainable for DOs after General Surgery to get into some of these fields specifically.

So doesn't that make it more possible for DO's to specialize in a surgical specialty? If fellowships are on the table ( and from what I understand, it's easier getting a good fellowship as a DO as it seems as though the DO bias is less once you come out of residency than once you come out of med school). I'm really just curious.

Also , shouldn't anyone going to med school be content with the idea of being a PCP if it came to that? It's not like there isn't a huge chance of that happening just because someone goes to an MD school. That's something that bugs me- ppl act like all DO's should love primary care but don't seem to realize plenty of MD end up as PCPs too, or am I missing something?

 

[Fat_Albert]

So doesn't that make it more possible for DO's to specialize in a surgical specialty? If fellowships are on the table ( and from what I understand, it's easier getting a good fellowship as a DO as it seems as though the DO bias is less once you come out of residency than once you come out of med school). I'm really just curious.

Also , shouldn't anyone going to med school be content with the idea of being a PCP if it came to that? It's not like there isn't a huge chance of that happening just because someone goes to an MD school. That's something that bugs me- ppl act like all DO's should love primary care but don't seem to realize plenty of MD end up as PCPs too, or am I missing something?

I think most people on here think they're going to kill it in med school and don't want to limit their chances (nothing wrong with that), but personally I know my limits. Even tho I killed it in college gpa wise my competition wasn't really cutthroat (state college); in medical school I predict it's going to be the the opposite. Also, I'm average at standardized exams, and research isn't my cup of tea...two things you need to match into a competitive specialty. waaaah

 

[mwsapphire]

I think most people on here think they're going to kill it in med school and don't want to limit their chances (nothing wrong with that), but personally I know my limits. Even tho I killed it in college gpa wise my competition wasn't really cutthroat (state college); in medical school I predict it's going to be the the opposite. Also, I'm average at standardized exams, and research isn't my cup of tea...two things you need to match into a competitive specialty. waaaah

I don't understand...are you an MD or DO student?
Are you saying this is why MD students don't understand they can end up as PCP's or if this is why people think they don't wanna go DO?

 

[Fat_Albert]

I don't understand...are you an MD or DO student?
Are you saying this is why MD students don't understand they can end up as PCP's or if this is why people think they don't wanna go DO?

nahhh I'm a random guy about to apply this cycle. And both lol. But that's just my opinion from what I've researched

 

[Giovanotto]

I don't understand...are you an MD or DO student?
Are you saying this is why MD students don't understand they can end up as PCP's or if this is why people think they don't wanna go DO?

😍😍

 

[mwsapphire]

😍😍

I wish she were mine.

 

[ciestar]

So doesn't that make it more possible for DO's to specialize in a surgical specialty? If fellowships are on the table ( and from what I understand, it's easier getting a good fellowship as a DO as it seems as though the DO bias is less once you come out of residency than once you come out of med school). I'm really just curious.

Also , shouldn't anyone going to med school be content with the idea of being a PCP if it came to that? It's not like there isn't a huge chance of that happening just because someone goes to an MD school. That's something that bugs me- ppl act like all DO's should love primary care but don't seem to realize plenty of MD end up as PCPs too, or am I missing something?

I greatly agree with this. Every med student should enter med school being okay with ending up in primary care, most do, MD or DO.

Most people think they’re the exception and won’t end up in primary care.

 

[Lawpy]

So doesn't that make it more possible for DO's to specialize in a surgical specialty? If fellowships are on the table ( and from what I understand, it's easier getting a good fellowship as a DO as it seems as though the DO bias is less once you come out of residency than once you come out of med school). I'm really just curious.

Also , shouldn't anyone going to med school be content with the idea of being a PCP if it came to that? It's not like there isn't a huge chance of that happening just because someone goes to an MD school. That's something that bugs me- ppl act like all DO's should love primary care but don't seem to realize plenty of MD end up as PCPs too, or am I missing something?

I greatly agree with this. Every med student should enter med school being okay with ending up in primary care, most do, MD or DO.

Most people think they’re the exception and won’t end up in primary care.

Agreed. Unfortunately, people can be elitist and view primary care as the "seventh circle of hell" as @Goro likes to put it.

 

[Goro]

I greatly agree with this. Every med student should enter med school being okay with ending up in primary care, most do, MD or DO.

Most people think they’re the exception and won’t end up in primary care.

The wishful thinking of some pre-meds and even med students is astounding. They all think that they're going to score 518 on MCAT, and a 250 on Step I. All the while ignoring that the medians for the two are 500 and ~220.

These people probably think they can come off the bench and sink game winning 3 pointers for the Warriors and Cavs as well

 

[Giovanotto]

The wishful thinking of some pre-meds and even med students is astounding. They all think that they're going to score 518 on MCAT, and a 250 on Step I. All the while ignoring that the medians for the two are 500 and ~220.

These people probably think they can come off the bench and sink game winning 3 pointers for the Warriors and Cavs as well

What about good looks? I thought that was supposed to count for something Goro.

 

[Goro]

What about good looks? I thought that was supposed to count for something Goro.

For you, everything!

 

[GTown]

These are the fields which I consider DO friendly (where PDs will often rank/interview DOs):

Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

Some 25% of Thoracic and Gen Surg PDs will often rank/interview DOs.

@Goro what are your thoughts on DO's being able to do hem-onc fellowships? A pipe dream? That's where my passion lies, I've been doing full time work in oncologic R&D (mabs, gene therapies and cell therapies) the past 6 years and I'm sort of leaning that way. I plan on staying active in research through med school, but now I'm wondering what the bias is towards DO's for those fellowships? Is a stellar IM residency an absolute must?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

@Goro what are your thoughts on DO's being able to do hem-onc fellowships? A pipe dream? That's where my passion lies, I've been doing full time work in oncologic R&D (mabs, gene therapies and cell therapies) the past 6 years and I'm sort of leaning that way. I plan on staying active in research through med school, but now I'm wondering what the bias is towards DO's for those fellowships? Is a stellar IM residency an absolute must?

No a stellar IM program is not a must, but it never hurts.

http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2018/02/Results-and-Data-SMS-2018.pdf

34 DOs matched heme/onc fellowships this year

 

[Dwan]

Dang, that's not such a bad trade off then considering how most people hate gen surgery (from what I've read on here and reddit) and you match the same as 80-85% of MDs. Dunno why ppl on here complain so much about it

I'd add on "competitive" fields like ENT and radiation oncology, which had >90% match rates this year. Similar to rads, despite the high average applicant, an MD definitely have good odds of getting these fields even with an average step. Many argue that these average step matches are gods with amazing research etc, but that's not the case from what I've seen and I don't go to a top school, rather, they just match into lower-tier programs. With an average step and amazing research, you can still make top places in these fields as an MD because research is so highly coveted. This case is more unusual, but we also had a match into a top 5 ENT program by someone with an average step/ little research but an amazing performance on away.

 

[Goro]

@Goro what are your thoughts on DO's being able to do hem-onc fellowships? A pipe dream? That's where my passion lies, I've been doing full time work in oncologic R&D (mabs, gene therapies and cell therapies) the past 6 years and I'm sort of leaning that way. I plan on staying active in research through med school, but now I'm wondering what the bias is towards DO's for those fellowships? Is a stellar IM residency an absolute must?

We've sent grads to ACGME heme/onc.

Networking is key.

One can always ask this lady:
Patricia LoRusso, DO > Yale Cancer Center | Yale School of Medicine

 

[Goro]

I'd add on "competitive" fields like ENT and radiation oncology, which had >90% match rates this year. Similar to rads, despite the high average applicant, you definitely have good odds of getting these fields even with an average step. Many argue that these average step matches are gods with amazing research etc, but that's not the case from what I've seen and I don't go to a top school, rather, they just match into lower-tier programs. With an average step and amazing research, you can still make top places in these fields as an MD because research is so highly coveted. This case is more unusual, but we also had a match into a top 5 ENT program by someone with an average step/ little research but an amazing performance on away.

Are you talking about DOs? > 90 of ACGME ENT PDs surveyed will either never or seldom interview/rank DOs.

 

[Dwan]

Are you talking about DOs? > 90 of ACGME ENT PDs surveyed will either never or seldom interview/rank DOs.

Nah, I was replying to the poster commenting on programs accessible to MDs with average board scores. I agree with your list for DOs.

 

[mwsapphire]

Are you talking about DOs? > 90 of ACGME ENT PDs surveyed will either never or seldom interview/rank DOs.

So if surgical specialties are possible with fellowships, then ENT ,Optho, and IR are the only things that are way off the list for DO's?

 

[Dwan]

@Goro what are your thoughts on DO's being able to do hem-onc fellowships? A pipe dream? That's where my passion lies, I've been doing full time work in oncologic R&D (mabs, gene therapies and cell therapies) the past 6 years and I'm sort of leaning that way. I plan on staying active in research through med school, but now I'm wondering what the bias is towards DO's for those fellowships? Is a stellar IM residency an absolute must?

You don't need the most elite IM programs; a solid academic program will do. After that, research will be the major factor. Plenty of DOs match into low-mid tier heme onc fellowships. However, the elite heme-onc fellowships take nearly exclusively from top IM programs which are extremely challenging to get in for DOs (e.g. MSK Department of Medicine: Our Fellows | Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center). Med school pedigree is far less important than residency pedigree at that stage.

 

[Goro]

So if surgical specialties are possible with fellowships, then ENT ,Optho, and IR are the only things that are way off the list for DO's?

See my post #8 above.

 

[GTown]

We've sent grads to ACGME heme/onc.

Networking is key.

One can always ask this lady:
Patricia LoRusso, DO > Yale Cancer Center | Yale School of Medicine

Thank you!

 

[GTown]

We've sent grads to ACGME heme/onc.

Networking is key.

One can always ask this lady:
Patricia LoRusso, DO > Yale Cancer Center | Yale School of Medicine

Also how soon is too soon to network? I'm currently not worried about research as I'm a pharma scientist in cell therapies, but I did defer my admission for this year and so I have a year now I guess to start setting up research opportunities. Too soon?

 

[Medical Seed]

Is Radiology-Diagnostic really D.O friendly? I thought they rarely accept D.O students. I can be wrong. I am just asking!

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Is Radiology-Diagnostic really D.O friendly? I thought they rarely accept D.O students. I can be wrong. I am just asking!

Yes. Outside of the top programs.

 

[gensurghopeful]

Good read this thread. Glad to hear gen surg isn't entirely hard to obtain as an osteopathic student.
Does a board score of level 1 230 + overall solid app have a chance of getting gen surg or is 240 more neccesary?

 

[Tozanzibarbymotorcar]

These are the fields which I consider DO friendly (where PDs will often rank/interview DOs):

Radiology-Diagnostic
Obstetrics and Gynecology
Emergency Medicine
Child Neurology
Internal Medicine
Neurology
Internal Medicine/Pediatrics
Psychiatry
Anesthesiology
Pathology
Pediatrics
Family Medicine
Physical Medicine and Rehabilitation

Some 25% of Thoracic and Gen Surg PDs will often rank/interview DOs.

As someone said, top programs or even programs in very desirable areas of the country in any of these specialties could be challenging. There are family med and IM programs that won’t even look at a DO app.

 

[Blanky]

EM is my dream. I have a slight little interest in Anesthesia. I could live with IM but FM/Peds would be a huge life let down for me...

 

[Saleemrodman1]

surgical subspecialties, derm, and rad onc pretty much

What about Hematology? I know that it's a subspecialty of Oncology, but how does Hematology rank when it comes to competitiveness?

 

[rg2o3]

What about Hematology? I know that it's a subspecialty of Oncology, but how does Hematology rank when it comes to competitiveness?

Can do heme/one fellowship after IM residency. Not sure about fellowship competitiveness.