Top 5, mid 250s, anesthesia
What are the top-ranked people in your respective schools going into?
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AnatomyGrey12
Yeah but I think you’re overblowing it honestly. I know for or a fact that there are multiple 250s most years at my school because people have seen the actual score reports. This isn’t to even mention the number of people that hit 240+.
Right, but it should be below what someone would expect from the national averages and SDs. I simply cannot believe DO schools are producing 250s at a rate consistent or greater than what you would statistically expect by looking at the averages/SDs. I think skepticism is highly warranted in these cases. And as I said earlier, 240 is way different than 250.
One of the reasons why I am skeptical? DO MCAT averages are low. Really low. Like, laughably low. My class average is a 25, I think. As some studies have shown, there is a statistically significant correlation (a moderate one) between MCAT performance and Step 1 performance (with caveats, of course). So I really cannot buy the claims of people saying that people from DO schools are slam-dunking the Step 1 in a way that reflects the distribution of scores on average. Statistics should make us wary of these claims. Again, this is NOT to say that "there are no 250s". It's just going to be at a rate below (likely significantly below, all things considered) what you would expect just by looking at the national averages.
Do MCAT scores predict USMLE scores? An analysis on 5 years of medical student data
Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of... : Academic Medicine
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68PGunner
I know someone of a MCAT under 25 who's doing very WELL in school. MCAT doesn't mean jack.
I said I think (and it wasn't really necessary to verify because it wasn't really pertinent to my argument). 28 is still not a great number, but this actually proves my point further. If KCUMB isn't producing the numbers you guys are spouting earlier, and is higher than the DO MCAT average, we have an even bigger reason to cast doubt.
Another reason why I think these are inflated scores is because of how hyper-emotional some of you guys are about this entire thing. I have a hunch that due to the feeling of inadequacy, people are going to be inflating scores.
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AnatomyGrey12
For a population yes but these stats have no predictive power how someone will do individually, and you neglect the fact that the class average means jack as in your class I know for a fact there are people with 90%+ MCATs. You are free to be skeptical, but you are also wrong. There are usually a few 250s in every class. You need to work on your statistics if you think statistics show this isn’t possible.
I have a background in mathematics. I did say there are going to be a few 250s in every class, so nothing against you there. We are talking about a distribution. But you can believe whatever you want - I won't believe the numbers which are likely inflated.
You do realize I'm discussing completely different ranges of numbers than you, right? @AnatomyGrey12 and I are not talking about 240s. If you cannot understand the difference between a 240 and a 250+, I don't know what to say. A completely different tier in %ile, which affects how many people you would expect to see with those scores.
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AnatomyGrey12
I am confused what your point is then.... in our 3rd year class of 115 students we had more than 1 person break 250 and that is a fact. Other posters have said that they also had multiple people break 250 at their schools, but now that you admit that this happens in every class I am confused as to what you are trying to argue.
No I did not say that there is none! I owe you an apology if I mislead you regarding my point. I think we may be more on the same page on this than we thought.
Basically I am saying that: There will be 250s in every class, that's just expected statistically. But it should NOT be as many 250s as one would expect judging from a simple calculation from the distribution of scores on average, as DO schools typically have students below the mean for test taking abilities (as can be shown by the moderate correlation between MCAT and Step 1). I attribute what I perceive to be some schools having a high number of students who break 250 to simple inflation from the students themselves.
I think the simple solution is to figure out the average step 1 score per class/school and compare to national average.
If class average is = national average, then the number of people with 250-255s should be 10%(90th percentile) of the number of test takers.
If class average < or > national average, then 250-255s < or > 10% respectively.
People need to stop throwing anecdotal experiences around and just go with the numbers.
Thank you, finally. This is exactly what I have been saying. But I want to take a step further and say that due to some other variables, we should be somewhat below the national average. This is much harder to quantify, though.
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AnatomyGrey12
The issue is that your point would be completely valid if everyone took the USMLE, but currently the people who take USMLE are a self selecting group and tend to be the stronger students in their respective DO classes. This is going to offset the effect you are trying to verbalize.
Ultimately I think it simply fluctuates from year to year, with some classes having more 250s than expected and some having less.
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They're those Lotto winners you see in the upper class ACGME residencies (like the KCU grads who went to Derm at Mayo..the Mayo, not a satellite clinic) , or the uber-specialty AOA residencies.
Why the condescension towards CUSOM?
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He wasn't being condescending, he was stating my quote as an example of how even new schools like CUSOM are pulling out 260s. So it not that uncommon amongst many DO schools to have people scoring in 250 and 260s.
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If you’re a first year, our class average is a 505 which is around a 28-29....
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AnatomyGrey12
I see no part of my comment that even hints at condescension to CUSOM. They are a good school and are a new school that had a few people score extremely highly in their first round of board takers, which is impressive for a brand new school.
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Man you guys sure do get riled up over nothing. I only know based on averages and find it hard to believe what you're saying and will likely continue to do so.
People inflate their scores all the time, and others are naive enough to believe them without paying attention to statistics. If people think DO schools can consistently be on par or outperform the average MD school on the Step 1, I don't know what to say.
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Again, you seem to ignore the simple fact that DO’s have the luxury of backing out of the USMLE if they don’t feel prepared; or they can not even take it at all. The DO students who do take the exam are a self selected group, the people (generally) who have done well in the first two years; and feel confident about taking the test.
MD’s don’t have that option, they all have to take it. Even the screwups. So I’m not surprised if DO’s have a higher percentage of above average to elite scores.
Ok. Well I take solace in knowing I’m correct and I have very little to gain from fabricating this data. I wish I was the top scorer at my school. I simply wasn’t. And in general the site wide (and nation wide) epidemic of inexperienced people talking of their asses has grown my patience quite thin.
Edit: Oh Christ. You’re the Ms-2 that claimed ONE 240+ scorer per school?! Just fade me. Can’t reason with unadulterated ignorance.
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The mean will be inflated due to that, of course (and they are still probably below the average of all exam takers, likely with a smaller standard deviation). I just can't believe this on a consistent basis, that's all. Perhaps sometimes there are some good years that people point to, but to be honest I'd be really surprised if the averages are on par, even considering just the exam takers.
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I don't go here, or anywhere, but I was looking at Ohio University's match list the other day because one of my friends got accepted there and I was pretty impressed. 1 matched neurosurg and a few ortho.
https://ohio.app.box.com/s/yx4ipvm1zrdzi63cynoeyjtdsj6pzg4b
https://ohio.app.box.com/s/yx4ipvm1zrdzi63cynoeyjtdsj6pzg4b
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i love lamp
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6 out of 250+ students... not to mention that people lie about their step1 score...
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KCUMB has AT LEAST two students (and there are probably more) that scored 265+ on USMLE Step 1 this year.
Again, people can claim whatever they want. Saying that 2 people scored 265+ is meaningless, because that doesn't change the fact that the statistics should reflect a statistically significant poorer performance by even the self-selected pool. Obviously, since this is a distribution, you will see people at all ranges. The real bit of information we are actually talking about is the fact that the overall performance is going to be WORSE than the average MD performance.
Also keep in mind that there is not a TRUE normal distribution, as the normal distribution prediction above a 250ish tends to overshoot the ACTUAL number of people getting scores that high. Not to mention, as has been stated by numerous people earlier, that people tend to lie about their scores.
Also keep in mind that there is not a TRUE normal distribution, as the normal distribution prediction above a 250ish tends to overshoot the ACTUAL number of people getting scores that high. Not to mention, as has been stated by numerous people earlier, that people tend to lie about their scores.
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Nice to see that this thread turned into what it did. Never change SDN.
I’m not one for censorship but this feels like a flat earther thread. Bunch of random pre clinical know it alls with zero experiencing with the step acting like they have it figured out. Just lock the bitch.
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At my school I am aware of a decent amount of people who were above 240.
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Welcome to SDN. You have OMS-I students in other threads giving advice to OMS-IIIs on where to apply and where not to apply and judging what is and isn't a good score. This is why this site is absolute garbage after you actually get into medical school. I'm just here for the daily comedic relief.
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You've never actually used statistics or done hypothesis driven research before have you?
You are incorrect, but that's not relevant to the points made earlier (which you probably generally agree with).
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There is good advice buried, problem is people are not willing to dig hard enough to find it. Med school advisors who aren't attached to residency programs are just as useless as pre-med advisors. SDN is still a godsend and will continue to be one for me.
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I disagree with the notion of making reality fit a perception of how reality should be. Especially when you're beginning to come in with a developed paradigm of why the performance is supposedly lower.
reality is that it's lower because the aspirations of a lot of ppl are a lot lower. I broke my ass on step 1 because I wanted something specific and competitive. for someone who wanted FM around KC or hell almost any residency around KC. There was utterly not anywhere near as much incentive to do half as much as I did.
I'll be honest in saying that the mcat is a poor predictor of anything other than motivation and English competency. and I'll argue that the latter is probably sufficiently proven with a score above a 27 almost every time.
Doing well on the usmle simply put entirely depends on how well you want to do on it and how willing you are to put the time in.
this not to also mention that there is an abundance of ppl at our school of ppl with MD stats if you're that hard pressed for an explanation that fits your narrative.
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Some studies have shown MCAT scores have moderate correlation with Step 1. People have inherent test taking abilities. I don't know anyone who said "I am at DO school because I didn't try very hard on the MCAT and got a 27." It is quite the contrary. And someone who struggles hard and gets a 27 is not a good test taker.
I also find it difficult to make the same assumption you did regarding aspirations being lower. I would actually think the people taking Step 1 have generally higher aspirations than the portion of the class taking just COMLEX. Keep in mind that people doing poorly might not be willing to say "I did all that i could." If we are trying to be objective, we can't rely on what people say.
It also means nothing to say that there are some people with MD averages, because overall DO schools are not at the MD average.
Also, you said that English competency is a big factor in scores above 27... well, I have a 36 mcat and my breakdown is: 14P, 12B, 10V. I was born in this country and speak fluently, studied harder for verbal more than anything else (didn't really even touch bio), and still got destroyed with a 10. Yet plenty of foreigners I know got around the same verbal score. Honestly, verbal was a pretty ****ty section. I don't think it really tested your English abilities.
I also find it difficult to make the same assumption you did regarding aspirations being lower. I would actually think the people taking Step 1 have generally higher aspirations than the portion of the class taking just COMLEX. Keep in mind that people doing poorly might not be willing to say "I did all that i could." If we are trying to be objective, we can't rely on what people say.
It also means nothing to say that there are some people with MD averages, because overall DO schools are not at the MD average.
Also, you said that English competency is a big factor in scores above 27... well, I have a 36 mcat and my breakdown is: 14P, 12B, 10V. I was born in this country and speak fluently, studied harder for verbal more than anything else (didn't really even touch bio), and still got destroyed with a 10. Yet plenty of foreigners I know got around the same verbal score. Honestly, verbal was a pretty ****ty section. I don't think it really tested your English abilities.
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Moderate and likely more of pass v.s fail type thing. I'll say that someone with under a 27 probably has a higher chance of failing. But that 27 = 35 = 45 in terms of pass rate.
The mcat is a proxy not for test taking ability because the exam doesn't really even remotely compare to the level of test takjng skill you need in medical school or usmle, but instead for ability to be diligent and invest time.
Yes, there's differences in test taking skills. That contributes a lot. And it probably contributes to some of the differences in scores. But that's only one dimension to the result as many different people are investing different amounts of time.
I think plenty of people at my school including myself took it entirely aiming for just around average. I kicked myself into higher gear as I want a coast resident. Others wanted a vacation and a residency in the Midwest. It affects score enormously.
Personally I got a 26 on my mcat and ~240 on my step 1. The difference is that I cared to actually do the due diligence and put in the time. Usmle is honestly almost entirely organized around how much willingness you put into studying for it and trying to be a good doctor.
Either way. I think you're too concerned with step 1. You'll take it when you get there and if you want a good score you'll put in the time for it. No need to need to relate your mcat score to making you feel like you'll do well on it.
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Isn’t the correlation like a r^2 of .4? AKA ****. I actually think it’s hilarous that you suck at reading comprehension based off this thread lol.
This conversation has deviated so much from its original point, which is to speculate about the whatever the top dogs in your class pursue.
There is so much anecdotal evidence in this thread and because of such, it’s impossible to make anything out of it, except that they are stories to heard. I got 29 in my MCAT, ended up with 215. Oops. This dude i gotta know pretty well through a rotation, also got a 29 in his MCAT but happened to crush his steps (260s in both). Also, our class rank are 2 spots apart. Go figure. Actually, don’t bother. Let’s get back to gossip. It’s more fun that way than get into endless arguments with internet strangers
Anyhow, heard the top 3 people in my class is going to IM. Can’t wait to find out 2 months from now where they end up.
There is so much anecdotal evidence in this thread and because of such, it’s impossible to make anything out of it, except that they are stories to heard. I got 29 in my MCAT, ended up with 215. Oops. This dude i gotta know pretty well through a rotation, also got a 29 in his MCAT but happened to crush his steps (260s in both). Also, our class rank are 2 spots apart. Go figure. Actually, don’t bother. Let’s get back to gossip. It’s more fun that way than get into endless arguments with internet strangers
Anyhow, heard the top 3 people in my class is going to IM. Can’t wait to find out 2 months from now where they end up.
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The mean/median DO school matriculant has an MCAT score of 502 (~26-27). That's an enormous amount of students to be classified as poor test takers.
I think you are being a little harsh. Replace 27 with 23 and you may have an argument.
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The verbal section is not meant to test "English abilities"its meant to test an abstract ability to interpret and synthesize information. The whole point is that you have this topic that you know relatively little about, and its your job to interpret what the writer is trying to say, what the key points of their arguments are, etc. It is a hard section, and honestly one that most people find it difficult to study for.
As for the correlation, I really wouldn't focus too much on it. Test taking ability only takes you so far. The USMLE is a very different beast, and really is all about how much you put into it in the months and weeks leading up to the exam. To give you an idea, my score was not far from yours, I did most of my studying during the month leading up to and including dedicated study, and I did OK on the USMLE. My friend who had a 24 MCAT really started focusing on studying a couple months before me, and he scored higher than me. It really is how much you put into it, so my recommendation to you is to put as much as you can into it.
As for aspiration, DOs take Step 1 for lots of reasons, but above all its to keep options open. By the end of second year more than half of those people taking Step 1 don't even have an idea of what they want, but they know they don't want to be forced into a field or a region because they only have a COMLEX. I know plenty of people that took Step 1 only to end up in the classically less competitive fields (e.g. FM, psych, community IM, peds, etc.).
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deleted831695
Kind of a random question (this thread already got derailed), but what Step 1 do you need nowadays to match into Neuro?
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200+ for US MD... You might need 215+ if you are a DO. Neuro is not competitive.
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Generally Neuro falls into the category of being both a highly self selected specialty, meaning very few ppl go into it without extremely high amounts of determination for it. And also having adequate amounts of residencies for the interest level. So it really has a very high match rate for almost everyone.
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Sorry to hjack, but does DO class rank really matter? I'm at a school where 1/2 of the class is previous masters students of the same school who are taking the EXACT SAME courses over again in first year.
Just curious. Thanks.
Just curious. Thanks.
Generally, pre-clinical class rank and grades are not that important. If you can have a high class rank, then go for it. Otherwise, board scores >>>> pre-clinical grades for residency.
However, people that do well in class generally do better on board scores. So I would still try your best.
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Check with your school, but at my school it's the same story so they rank them separately. So you might think you're middle of the road based on exam averages, when homeboy next to you is taking the class FOR THE THIRD TIME IN SOME CASES. Pretty much every program I know of ranks their SMP students apart from the normal matriculates, so do your best and don't fret. And yes, if you want to go into something competitive like surgery rank makes a difference.
