What are you going to do about it?

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

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@nasrud, Yeah good luck with that passive aggresive thing you got going on.

Man, this isn't pre-allo. Let's tone down the rhetoric and keep it respectful and civil here, please. You're talking to people with life experience, real responsibilities and families. Thanks for your understanding.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

I believe Louis L'Amour would classify you both as "tenderfoot."

The lit. drop. Nice.

 

[Nasrudin]

Doesn't matter what you think is amoral. In this country the president of the US (Reagan) previously saw fit to deny air traffic controllers the right to strike and the administrations argument would be much much much stronger in denying physicians the same right. The precedent has been set. Nobody in the profession really thinks they would be allowed to strike en masse. And without that threat a union is meaningless -- just a pit into which you dump dues.

And that ignores the fact that despite being treated as employees we have all taken an oath to put patients first. so even if the administration dragged their feet on the issue, we really couldn't just walk out of the ICU, tell the nurses "good luck" and join the picket line. So a union isn't part of the equation in this field. The way to influence is to put up lots of money and use lobby groups. Lawyers have figured his out. Other fields too. But doctors have shown resistance to this form of influence and it's easier to get blood out of a stone.

It matters to me what I think is amoral. Whether that is consequential is a different question. And of course it is not. I'm no more a cat herder than a physician union organizer. There's nothing we disagree about. I'm just interested in the comparative ethics of these scenarios.

For instance, in your example above, it is the ICU nurse who can say to the doctor good luck with these new travelers. And their case, it signifies a glorious revolution for patient rights.

 

[Nasrudin]

Man, this isn't pre-allo. Let's tone down the rhetoric and keep it respectful and civil here, please. You're talking to people with life experience, real responsibilities and families. Thanks for your understanding.

I thank you for your chivalry, but, I intentionally draw out this ire at times, because my secret joy is schadenfruede-ing the hypocrisy of the self-righteous.

It's a great thread topic. And it's more interesting here than in the Allo forum because it pits the formed or forming identities of physicians against the lies told to those seeking to enter the profession. I've always hated that the difficulty in obtaining a career in medicine produces such a frantic scramble to prove who is the purest of all the pilgrims.

 

[Pons Asinorum]

@Nasrudin


where else would you refer to people as "attention starved health trainwrecks" so casually? Oh let me guess, among other jaded folks just like yourself?

You are exactly what is wrong with healthcare. You have no business becoming a healthcare provider. There are many careers where you will NOT be around "attention starved health trainwrecks. " Hopefully you go into something like Rad or whatever else has zero patient contact. For your sake and for the sake of people who might look at you and mistake you for someone who gives a damn.

The amount of unknown-unknown involved in that quote is breathtaking to me. I guess maybe I'm the naive one to assume most in this particular sub forum would be able to see, or at least respect the likelihood of, the complexity of healthcare and the act of practicing medicine in the current environment. Worf, thank you for enlightening me to my own cognitive deficiencies.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Worf fails to realize that those "attention starved health trainwrecks" also have day jobs, where people in "many careers" get to be around them. Less Worf, more Data.

 

[Nasrudin]

Worf fails to realize that those "attention starved health trainwrecks" also have day jobs, where people in "many careers" get to be around them. Less Worf, more Data.

That phrase was not malicious. I simply meant that society discards grandma and that visit with her doctor might be the one social encounter of the day. But the inhuman demands on the physician doesn't account for this. She may be in the process of being kept barely alive with a complex interaction of pharmaceuticals that requires every bit of that 15 minutes to even passably manage.

The situation is not humane for any of us.

It's just far too easy for those not having faced the obstacles to have opinions. It's one of the great problems of the mental landscape the internet has created--that everyone's opinion is worth the same.

 

[QofQuimica]

That phrase was not malicious. I simply meant that society discards grandma and that visit with her doctor might be the one social encounter of the day. But the inhuman demands on the physician doesn't account for this. She may be in the process of being kept barely alive with a complex interaction of pharmaceuticals that requires every bit of that 15 minutes to even passably manage.

The situation is not humane for any of us.

It's just far too easy for those not having faced the obstacles to have opinions. It one of the great problems of the mental landscape the internet has created--that everyone's opinion is worth the same.

People having opinions doesn't bother me. We're all laymen about something, and we're all entitled to our opinions. But that those opinions will be expressed respectfully should be taken for granted.

And in spite of people trying to downplay the difference between physicians and other professionals, the fact remains that there *is* a difference. Maybe not in number of hours worked, or fiduciary responsibility, or years of training needed, or debt taken on, or level of stress, or intellectual challenge. But for sure in terms of the emotional charge of the job.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

That phrase was not malicious. I simply meant that society discards grandma and that visit with her doctor might be the one social encounter of the day. But the inhuman demands on the physician doesn't account for this. She may be in the process of being kept barely alive with a complex interaction of pharmaceuticals that requires every bit of that 15 minutes to even passably manage.

The situation is not humane for any of us.

It's just far too easy for those not having faced the obstacles to have opinions. It's one of the great problems of the mental landscape the internet has created--that everyone's opinion is worth the same.

Sorry, I was reading it with the context of, "obese, diabetic, hypertensive, hyperlipidemic, slobbish hoard of them" still in my mind. In which case, I don't know in which careers one could avoid those types.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

We have something stirring over here guys, recruiting all worthy and willing soldiers to the fight.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/physicians-for-patient-safety-join-the-conversation.1069942/

start here for quick context, see post by NickNaylor. The pages before and after for the momentum build.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/nyt-today-nurses-are-not-doctors.1068469/page-14

 

[QofQuimica]

Did he ever finish his analysis of NP vs MD/DO outcomes? Not that evidence really sways people anyway; patients tend to choose their providers based on convenience, price, and how nice the providers (or their office staff) are.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Did he ever finish his analysis of NP vs MD/DO outcomes? Not that evidence really sways people anyway; patients tend to choose their providers based on convenience, price, and how nice the providers (or their office staff) are.

He posted that early this morning so I'm assuming he's still working on it.

We can debate the efficacy of evidence on lay people all day long, but Big Nursing must be pretty convinced it works because they use their "studies" on politicians, physicians, and the general public ad nauseum.

 

[QofQuimica]

He posted that early this morning so I'm assuming he's still working on it.

We can debate the efficacy of evidence on lay people all day long, but Big Nursing must be pretty convinced it works because they use their "studies" on politicians, physicians, and the general public ad nauseum.

Unfortunately for us, nurses are a lot better at PR than we are. They also are more available for appointments, and they're better at customer service because they're trained to be more touchy-feely. Which is why all this push for evidence is unlikely to sway anyone's mind. We can say what we want, but we vote with our feet (and our wallets). If I'm going to my doc for a limited complaint and they tell me that I can see the NP this afternoon or my PCP a week from Tuesday, I'll see the NP every time. And unlike my PCP, who was patronizing and arrogant the one time I saw her, at least the NP is nice.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Unfortunately for us, nurses are a lot better at PR than we are. They also are more available for appointments, and they're better at customer service because they're trained to be more touchy-feely. Which is why all this push for evidence is unlikely to sway anyone's mind. We can say what we want, but we vote with our feet (and our wallets). If I'm going to my doc for a limited complaint and they tell me that I can see the NP this afternoon or my PCP a week from Tuesday, I'll see the NP every time. And unlike my PCP, who was patronizing and arrogant the one time I saw her, at least the NP is nice.

We'd love to have your input and participation in the group when it's up and running.

 

[QofQuimica]

We'd love to have your input and participation in the group when it's up and running.

If you're going to do something constructive and not just spout off on the internet, I'm open to it.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

If you're going to do something constructive and not just spout off on the internet, I'm open to it.

Great, we'll be developing the agenda and strategies through the facebook group to protect our conversations and keep them private until we are ready to release a public statement or article. This is going to one of the few times that social media/the internet will be used for the mass outreach and collaboration tool that it can be.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

If you're going to do something constructive and not just spout off on the internet, I'm open to it.

The FB group is up and running, ideas are being formed. If you'd like to join us, just message NickNaylor and he'll send you the FB invite.