What can technically stop someone from being a doctor?

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mrmandrake

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Hello,

I was just wondering what can technically (as in by law and not due to a hindrance of skill ) stop someone from being a doctor?

1) Any handicaps such as an amputated limb?
2) Any diseases? Cancer? Viruses (from herpes to HIV)?
3) Anything else that you can think of? (blindness, deafness, etc ... )

Thanks alot!

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I know a deaf doctor, so you can scratch that off your list, as well as the disease processes. I think you'd have to have a highly communicable diseases- TB jumps out at me. I think the bigger issue would be legal trouble (felony convictions, etc) or substance abuse.
 
According to the adcoms posting in the pre-med forums about this, Academic Dishonesty can keep you out.

There's a girl in a wheelchair at my school and she's doing quite well. Our . . . um. . . "well-preserved" anatomy professor got a custom built anatomy table made especially for her last year and now she's doing rotations just like everyone else!

Apparently there're not many physical disabilities that appear to be too much of an issue.

Also, in the state of NC there apparenty *are* HIV+ docs because there's a law that states that any patient can refuse care from an HIV+ doc (but a doc can't refuse care to an HIV+ patient)
 
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Probably the quickest way for a physician to lose his/her license is to get involved with illegal substances or being unwilling to deal with their abuse of a legal one (alcohol). Most places will bend over backward to help docs with substance abuse problems but there will come a point when enough is enough.

Also, the state medical board could certainly consider felonies-- would you really want a physician who is a convicted child molester?
 
My state has a program for docs with substance abuse problems. They basically try to keep them eligible to practice. Also where I live, you are more likely to be kept out of nursing or allied health for a felony conviction than medicine. Hospitals don't want convict employees, but docs don't work for hospitals.

We had a quadriplegic (sorry if that is not the PC term, please tell me if there is a better way to say this) graduate a few years ago. Most of the application requirements say that you have to have some physical abilities, but I'm sure that there are ways to get around them. For instance, a deaf person certainly can't auscultate, but he/she could still be an excellent physician. It looks very good (PR) for a school to appear ADA-friendly.

Now for infectious diseases, there is absolutely nothing wrong with a doctor being HIV positive, and it's not uncommon at all for providers to skin test positive for TB. Obviously if you have an active case you can't see patients, but a TB history shouldn't rule you out. Standard precautions work both ways for blood pathogens. I'd think that you'd be more likely to get HSV from a doc who inadvertantly rubs his lip with a gloved hand before a pelvic than you would pick up a blood-borne bug, but I'm certain that HSV does not have any consequence. You should see how promiscuous some of my classmates are. These days a quarter of all adults are seropositive anyway.

In general, anything medical is not public anyway. Your hiring group is probably not going to pull your medical records since they are electronic nowadays and leave fingerprints. They would be setting themselves up for a lawsuit if they didn't hire you after you demonstrated that they accessed your medical records without permission.

Of course it helps if you have money during college so that you don't have to work and can afford MCAT prep courses, but I think I'd be hard pressed to find someone who would agree that being poor will keep you from becoming a doctor. Odd fact quoted by one of my profs--you are 61 times more likely to become a physician if you have a parent who is one.
 
There was a thread a while ago about a school graduating a blind doc...knock that off the list too.

dc
 
There is a blind resident at my school (psych resident)
 
Thanks for the informative reply guys. It's good to know that not much can stand in someone's way if they really want to be a doctor. Thanks again.
 
I know a deaf doctor, so you can scratch that off your list, as well as the disease processes. I think you'd have to have a highly communicable diseases- TB jumps out at me. I think the bigger issue would be legal trouble (felony convictions, etc) or substance abuse.

On TB, you're probably right if you have untreated active disease, but there are a fair number of MDs out there with positive PPDs, including some who have had active disease at some point in their life. Essentially ditto for substance abuse--lots of MDs have had substance abuse problems at some point, but it only keeps you from becoming a doctor if you do not resolve it.
 
I believe serious psychiatric problems can make it difficult to get a license (not necessarily minor depression/anxiety issues, but larger ones like bipolar, panic refractory to treatment, and/or any ongoing psych dx with psychotic features). But I'm not entirely about the specifics.
 
I know a deaf doctor, so you can scratch that off your list, as well as the disease processes. I think you'd have to have a highly communicable diseases- TB jumps out at me. I think the bigger issue would be legal trouble (felony convictions, etc) or substance abuse.

TB won't keep you out. TONS of med students/docs acquire TB on the job, and as long as you take your meds, there's a very small chance you'll progress to the stage where you're coughing up sputum and are contagious.
 
The state board. The federal government. Death. Taxes. There are more.
Certain untreated medical conditions can, but not all. That usually stems from the board saying if the physician isn't going to treat himself with the standard of care, then likely he isn't taking care of his patients, etc. You can also lose it from substance abuse.
 
I am curious how the the quadriplegic physician does an exam. How does the deaf doctor listen to lung sounds? How does the blind doctor take an anatomy test? I am all for reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities, however I think you need to use SOME common sense and recognize that some disabilities will prevent you from being able to function as a physician. Most schools have technical standards that you have to be able to perform as a condition of acceptance - I just don't see how the people with the challenges listed above would meet these standards.
 
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Hello,

I was just wondering what can technically (as in by law and not due to a hindrance of skill ) stop someone from being a doctor?

Not getting accepted to any medical school can stop you from being a doctor. 🙄
 
I am curious how the the quadriplegic physician does an exam. How does the deaf doctor listen to lung sounds? How does the blind doctor take an anatomy test? I am all for reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities, however I think you need to use SOME common sense and recognize that some disabilities will prevent you from being able to function as a physician. Most schools have technical standards that you have to be able to perform as a condition of acceptance - I just don't see how the people with the challenges listed above would meet these standards.

I was thinking the exact same thing. How do you perform a rectal exam if you are quadriplegic? How do you do anything if you are blind? How do you listen to a patient's heart and lungs if you are deaf? I remember having ot sign the technical standards which said that I am able to move and perform basic tasks without assistance (or something to that affect). Is this not a common form to sign for most med schools? I can understand not shutting out disabled students from medicine, but aren't there certain disabilities which would prevent the physician from providing standard of care?
 
Here's the url for the story about the blind medical student:
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/7318398

I read this but it still begs the question of how he would practice medicine? I mean, all those special gizmos and extra things he had to use to do his rotations can't possibly be accommdated at most hospitals/clinics...? I just figure in this kid's case, he is planning on doing research and the MD was more for his future clinical research experience rather than actually practicing medicine.
 
The blind kid had to get special treatment. How does he do an anatomy practical without touching the cadaver? We were forbidden to touch it, and if you did it was an honor code violation.
Laparoscopic surgery? Vaginal Hysterectomy? I'm not saying the kid isn't qualified, and didn't do enough for the school to let him pass, but he couldn't have done some of the things that normal people do. On the flip side, he can do lots of things normal people can't, so maybe they just let them cancel each other out.
 
There was someone from SDN that went to school with a blind student, he (or she) said there was some pretty significant assistance to get the student through, if memory serves me correctly (which it may not).

I am somewhat miffed that a person can get an MD without having to take all the steps that I have to, but I do think that if the guy can do the job as an MD, more power to him. When it shakes out, I end up being okay with it as long as he's good at what he does.

dc
 
When it shakes out, I end up being okay with it as long as he's good at what he does.

dc

But this is my point - it is not cruel, rude, politically incorrect, or morally wrong to state the obvious - there are some professions that a blind person simply can not go into. We wouldn't let this person fly a jumbo jet, be a professional race car driver, police officer etc. Why do we think it is OK to let this person work in a profession where there disability may KILL somebody? There certainly is not a shortage of well qualified people applying to medical school.
 
But this is my point - it is not cruel, rude, politically incorrect, or morally wrong to state the obvious - there are some professions that a blind person simply can not go into. We wouldn't let this person fly a jumbo jet, be a professional race car driver, police officer etc. Why do we think it is OK to let this person work in a profession where there disability may KILL somebody? There certainly is not a shortage of well qualified people applying to medical school.

Your points are all very valid, and most of your questions can be answered with one very simple concept: They all must have tons of help during their career. Many physicians require skills every day that depend on the basic functions and senses of our bodies, and people who don't have them simply need help.

This is just how society works today. It is unlawful to discriminate in terms of education based on disabilities. The law is the law, and that's the bottom line. Whether or not it is practical is up to debate, but it comes down to the simple concept of equal opportunity
 
Your points are all very valid, and most of your questions can be answered with one very simple concept: They all must have tons of help during their career. Many physicians require skills every day that depend on the basic functions and senses of our bodies, and people who don't have them simply need help.

This is just how society works today. It is unlawful to discriminate in terms of education based on disabilities. The law is the law, and that's the bottom line. Whether or not it is practical is up to debate, but it comes down to the simple concept of equal opportunity

Actually the law says that people can't be discriminated against in education or work if they can perform the "essential duties" or meet the "essential eligibility" of that job or educational program with or without reasonable accommodation. What constitutes a resonable accommodation isn't always clear cut, but if a person can't meet the essential requirements with or without reasonable accommodation then they can be legally turned down.

Here's something from the AAMC website since they can explain it better than I can. http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/june04/word.htm
"Both public and private entities are required to provide accommodations to persons with disabilities so that they may enjoy the same benefits, services and opportunities as those without disabilities. In particular, during their admission processes, medical schools and other institutions of higher education are required to judge students on the basis of their capacity to complete the educational program, rather than on their status as disabled persons.
According to the ADA, students seeking admission to medical school must be able to perform the "essential functions" or meet the "essential eligibility requirements" of the program after being provided with the needed accommodations. Each school is responsible for determining the "essential functions" or "essential eligibility" requirements (i.e., "technical standards") of its educational program, and for establishing its admissions criteria with such definitions in mind. For example, a requested accommodation that would cause a school to fundamentally alter its curriculum is not a reasonable accommodation. Additionally, of course, when deciding whe- ther or not to admit a student with a disability, the reasonable accommodations required by the ADA cannot create an undue hardship for the institution. Schools obviously vary in their ability, financially and otherwise, to implement reasonable accommodations even if their technical requirements would permit the admission of a given student.
Determining the fundamental req-uirements of a medical school program entails more than a simple legal or curricular design exercise. When contem- plating such requirements, one is challenged to answer several questions, including: what does it means to be a doctor in today's society; what constitutes good doctoring; and what are the truly non-negotiable elements composing a basic medical education.
Take the hypothetical example of a straight "A" student with high MCAT scores who possesses all the intellectual and personal characteristics expected of doctors but who happens to be quadriplegic. The admissions officers review- ing such an application would need to determine whether their institution's essential eligibility requirements dictate that all students be able to perform certain activities that only the physically "unimpaired" are able to perform unaided, such as a complete physical examination and resuscitation procedures. In framing their requirements, institutions need to consider not only societal expectations of doctors but also how doctors are actually practicing in today's workplace."

Here's something else from a different website. http://www.daisweb.com/node/53
"An accommodation is not reasonable if it poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. In order to establish a direct threat, the institution must be able to document a substantial risk of significant harm. Concern about direct threat arises most frequently in relation to allied health and professional programs in which the student's ability to provide safe and appropriate quality care is questioned. It should be noted that the mere existence of a disability does not provide evidence of direct threat. Nor does the possibility of a difficulty arising constitute a substantial risk of significant harm. While an institution may be able to make a case for "direct threat" in the instance of a deaf nurse or early childhood education major with limited vision, it would be a hard argument to make for these same students in an English or Philosophy class.
It is important to note that under the ADA the direct threat must be to someone else. The individual with a disability has a right to choose to assume the risk to self in the same way that anyone else who participates chooses to assume that risk. A blind individual could not be denied participation in a hiking class that covers rough terrain because of a fear that he/she might trip and fall, but it might be appropriate to deny participation to this individual in a scuba diving class in which participants are paired up and responsible for monitoring each other's safety through the visual inspection of valves and gauges."
 
Hello,

I was just wondering what can technically (as in by law and not due to a hindrance of skill ) stop someone from being a doctor?

1) Any handicaps such as an amputated limb?
2) Any diseases? Cancer? Viruses (from herpes to HIV)?
3) Anything else that you can think of? (blindness, deafness, etc ... )

Thanks alot!

My doctor lost his license for sleeping with his patients, no **** I am serious. So i guess keep your pee pee in your pants otherwise that can technically prevent you from being or staying as a doctor.
 
Doctors with various mental illnesses (i.e., bipolar) can practice medicine. All conditions in the DSM-IV must be disclosed to the licensing board and the board can monitor any doctors who they anticipate as having difficulties. They can establish guidelines that the doc must fulfill to keep (or receive) their license.

So yes, for those of you who are curious, this includes ADD, ADHD, learning disabilities, bipolar, regular depression, anxiety disorders, personality disorders, addiction etc.
 
I am curious how the the quadriplegic physician does an exam. How does the deaf doctor listen to lung sounds? How does the blind doctor take an anatomy test? I am all for reasonable accommodations for persons with disabilities, however I think you need to use SOME common sense and recognize that some disabilities will prevent you from being able to function as a physician. Most schools have technical standards that you have to be able to perform as a condition of acceptance - I just don't see how the people with the challenges listed above would meet these standards.

http://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/dome/0502/top_story.cfm

It's hard, but it can be done. This guy interned at Harvard and is now chief resident at Hopkins.
 
Doctors with various mental illnesses (i.e., bipolar) can practice medicine. All conditions in the DSM-IV must be disclosed to the licensing board and the board can monitor any doctors who they anticipate as having difficulties. They can establish guidelines that the doc must fulfill to keep (or receive) their license.

So yes, for those of you who are curious, this includes ADD, ADHD, learning disabilities, bipolar, regular depression, anxiety disorders, personality disorders, addiction etc.

I don't want to derail the thread, but that sounds really freaky and invasive to me...what if the person is recovered? Or has their disorder under control? Would (s)he have to prove themselves? Disclose all sorts of personal information? For instance, what if a woman dealt with and recovered from PTSD in undergrad (or even during medical school) after being raped? I know I certainly wouldn't want that scrutinized by an entire board. But perhaps if everyone involved is a doctor there's more empathy to go around for such things.
 
Actually the law says that people can't be discriminated against in education or work if they can perform the "essential duties" or meet the "essential eligibility" of that job or educational program with or without reasonable accommodation. What constitutes a resonable accommodation isn't always clear cut, but if a person can't meet the essential requirements with or without reasonable accommodation then they can be legally turned down.

Here's something from the AAMC website since they can explain it better than I can. http://www.aamc.org/newsroom/reporter/june04/word.htm
"Both public and private entities are required to provide accommodations to persons with disabilities so that they may enjoy the same benefits, services and opportunities as those without disabilities. In particular, during their admission processes, medical schools and other institutions of higher education are required to judge students on the basis of their capacity to complete the educational program, rather than on their status as disabled persons.
According to the ADA, students seeking admission to medical school must be able to perform the "essential functions" or meet the "essential eligibility requirements" of the program after being provided with the needed accommodations. Each school is responsible for determining the "essential functions" or "essential eligibility" requirements (i.e., "technical standards") of its educational program, and for establishing its admissions criteria with such definitions in mind. For example, a requested accommodation that would cause a school to fundamentally alter its curriculum is not a reasonable accommodation. Additionally, of course, when deciding whe- ther or not to admit a student with a disability, the reasonable accommodations required by the ADA cannot create an undue hardship for the institution. Schools obviously vary in their ability, financially and otherwise, to implement reasonable accommodations even if their technical requirements would permit the admission of a given student.
Determining the fundamental req-uirements of a medical school program entails more than a simple legal or curricular design exercise. When contem- plating such requirements, one is challenged to answer several questions, including: what does it means to be a doctor in today's society; what constitutes good doctoring; and what are the truly non-negotiable elements composing a basic medical education.
Take the hypothetical example of a straight "A" student with high MCAT scores who possesses all the intellectual and personal characteristics expected of doctors but who happens to be quadriplegic. The admissions officers review- ing such an application would need to determine whether their institution's essential eligibility requirements dictate that all students be able to perform certain activities that only the physically "unimpaired" are able to perform unaided, such as a complete physical examination and resuscitation procedures. In framing their requirements, institutions need to consider not only societal expectations of doctors but also how doctors are actually practicing in today's workplace."

Here's something else from a different website. http://www.daisweb.com/node/53
"An accommodation is not reasonable if it poses a direct threat to the health or safety of others. In order to establish a direct threat, the institution must be able to document a substantial risk of significant harm. Concern about direct threat arises most frequently in relation to allied health and professional programs in which the student’s ability to provide safe and appropriate quality care is questioned. It should be noted that the mere existence of a disability does not provide evidence of direct threat. Nor does the possibility of a difficulty arising constitute a substantial risk of significant harm. While an institution may be able to make a case for “direct threat” in the instance of a deaf nurse or early childhood education major with limited vision, it would be a hard argument to make for these same students in an English or Philosophy class.
It is important to note that under the ADA the direct threat must be to someone else. The individual with a disability has a right to choose to assume the risk to self in the same way that anyone else who participates chooses to assume that risk. A blind individual could not be denied participation in a hiking class that covers rough terrain because of a fear that he/she might trip and fall, but it might be appropriate to deny participation to this individual in a scuba diving class in which participants are paired up and responsible for monitoring each other’s safety through the visual inspection of valves and gauges."

Yeah sorry I didn't make that clear, but that's essentially what I meant. They need help.
 
The blind kid had to get special treatment. How does he do an anatomy practical without touching the cadaver? We were forbidden to touch it, and if you did it was an honor code violation.
Laparoscopic surgery? Vaginal Hysterectomy? I'm not saying the kid isn't qualified, and didn't do enough for the school to let him pass, but he couldn't have done some of the things that normal people do. On the flip side, he can do lots of things normal people can't, so maybe they just let them cancel each other out.

A very small percentage of physicians will ever perform laproscopic surgery or a vaginal hysterectomy. I think people are forgetting that the enormous variety of tasks performed by practicing physicians can also allow for an enormous variety of skills (or lack of particular abilities). Being blind isn't a problem in and of itself for a psychiatrist. If a quadraplegic radiologist has an aide to manipulate films and work a computer, then there wont be a problem for the patients whose films are being interpreted by the radiologist. Deaf? Not a big problem for the pathologist, or for an individual that primarily treats deaf patients. The lack of auscultating ability can be deferred to a cardiac nurse.
I'm not saying that physical limitations shouldnt limit one's scope of practice as a physician. I do believe, however, if someone can overcome these challenges and still complete those things that so many of us "normal" people b!tch about on a day to day basis, then damn it, I think he or she is capable of being a pretty darn good physician in the right setting.
 
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