What do aspiring and current M.Ds think of D.Os now?

[DermViser]

You can't believe that I told goro that with a glut of posts he might not have found the one I was referencing?

That's not goros fault.

I think goro knows who I am and im pretty sure he knows how much respect I have for him.

Even with the 2nd quote of me which you posted, it still proves Goro's point (and mine).

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[DoctorSynthesis]

Do you know how grants get funded? (Because I do)

So with your expertise on grants you have concluded that DOs don't get as much to do lack of competitive proposals? My school has been putting in tons of effort into this and invested a lot of money. Let's see what happens I guess.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

You can't believe that I told goro that with a glut of posts he might not have found the one I was referencing?

That's not goros fault.

I think goro knows who I am and im pretty sure he knows how much respect I have for him.

listen dude, derm is saying this (and i agree) because the substance of much of your posts, regardless of what anyone is saying, is reflexively and irrationally making arguments that are either objectively false, subjectively questionable, and more often than not completely misconstruing the "opposition." just simmer it down

And seriously, everyone - don't fcking bring administrators (e.g. Goro, LizzyM, etc) into petty sh1tfits. They have much more important ish to be doing and their attention to SDN is a precious thing that are not to be used frivolously. THE BAT SIGNAL IS NOT A TOY.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Even with the 2nd quote of me which you posted, it still proves Goro's point (and mine).

I'm sorry but in the post goro pointed I said you questioned DO education quality.

This is the quote:

"I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education in terms of quality of MS-3 clerkships, in terms of the match as far as which candidate is more favored (for good reason, IMHO), etc. "

How can you say this quote doesn't question DO education quality?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

listen dude, derm is saying this (and i agree) because the substance of much of your posts, regardless of what anyone is saying, is reflexively and irrationally making arguments that are either objectively false, subjectively questionable, and more often than not completely misconstruing the "opposition." just simmer it down

I'm trying to simmer down but its getting awfully hard. I ignored tons of posts I disagreed with before I exploded!!!

 

[WillburCobb]

So with your expertise on grants you have concluded that DOs don't get as much to do lack of competitive proposals? My school has been putting in tons of effort into this and invested a lot of money. Let's see what happens I guess.

Sorry but this is all for naught without quality grant writers.

 

[SkipJunior]

I know some residency PDs still have a negative stigma against DOs (though this stigma is slowly reducing as DO school admission standards go up) and I want pre-meds to know about that stigma. However, I don't want pre-meds to think that DOs are inherently inferior to MD and that DO is only for MD rejects. Unfortunately that's what a lot of pre-meds believe when it comes to D.O school.

Apart from the Puerto Rican MD schools and the HBCUS, you also have state MD schools like University of New Mexico and University of West Virginia that accept sub-par applicants with 23-26 MCAT scores because they have to fill up their school with state residents. Even a lot of Texas state MD schools (and almost every other state MD school) accept applicants with MCAT scores and GPA well below the MD average.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

So with your expertise on grants you have concluded that DOs don't get as much to do lack of competitive proposals? My school has been putting in tons of effort into this and invested a lot of money. Let's see what happens I guess.

they'll probably get more grants. which is, like, exactly what the guy was saying

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Sorry but this is all for naught without quality grant writers.

I think my school is going to have good writers. We will see what happens.

they'll probably get more grants. which is, like, exactly what the guy was saying

We will see has yet to happen.

Does that make mean my school can produce good doctors then in @Dral opinion if we do research.

 

[Goro]

OK kids, enough's enough. We've diverged far enough from the OP's post that we're in another time zone. Doc, I appreciate all you do to defend the profession, but sometimes you can almost be like a Scientologist with your take no prisoners attitude. So chill. Also keep at mind that for nearly all DO programs, the DO faculty's job is to teach and see patients, not get into the NIH grants rat race. TCOM DO faculty tend to be the exception to this, for one.

So with your expertise on grants you have concluded that DOs don't get as much to do lack of competitive proposals? My school has been putting in tons of effort into this and invested a lot of money. Let's see what happens I guess.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

So with your expertise on grants you have concluded that DOs don't get as much to do lack of competitive proposals? My school has been putting in tons of effort into this and invested a lot of money. Let's see what happens I guess.

Despite your attempts to be dismissive, I do actually know a little bit about grant applications, scoring, and funding.

Not as much as those more advanced in their academic careers to be sure, but a decent amount given that I'm doing two years of dedicated research under the guidance of mentors with multiple RO1s and a successful history of mentoring faculty K awards as well as serving on study committees.

Everyone has difficulty getting funded in the current environment due to a relative scarcity of funds in recent year.

But if you aren't getting funded, it's not due to DO discrimination.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

We will see has yet to happen.

Does that make mean my school can produce good doctors then in @Dral opinion if we do research.

how the heck should i know, i can't even tell what a good medical student is

 

[WillburCobb]

Apart from the Puerto Rican MD schools and the HBCUS, you also have state MD schools like University of New Mexico and University of West Virginia that accept sub-par applicants with 23-26 MCAT scores because they have to fill up their school with state residents. Even a lot of Texas state MD schools (and almost every other state MD school) accept applicants with MCAT scores and GPA well below the MD average.

They don't have to fill those spots with state residents with lower stats, the ones with lower stats bring something else to the table. A number of my classmates at my lowly state school had excellent stats and ECs but were waitlisted previous cycles over applicants who had considerably lower stats.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

OK kids, enough's enough. We've diverged far enough from the OP's post that we're in another time zone. Doc, I appreciate all you do to defend the profession, but sometimes you can almost be like a Scientologist with your take no prisoners attitude. So chill. Also keep at mind that for nearly all DO programs, the DO faculty's job is to teach and see patients, not get into the NIH grants rat race. TCOM DO faculty tend to be the exception to this, for one.

Interesting points about NIH

And agreed I can be abrasive at times.

I completely understand you not getting in the middle of this.

Thanks goro!!!

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I'm trying to simmer down but its getting awfully hard. I ignored tons of posts I disagreed with before I exploded!!!

with respect, please, try harder.
not to be that guy but you gotta learn to listen/analyze information better to be a competent physician regardless of degree

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Despite your attempts to be dismissive, I do actually know a little bit about grant applications, scoring, and funding.

Not as much as those more advanced in their academic careers to be sure, but a decent amount given that I'm doing two years of dedicated research under the guidance of mentors with multiple RO1s and a successful history of mentoring faculty K awards as well as serving on study committees.

Everyone has difficulty getting funded in the current environment due to a relative scarcity of funds in recent year.

But if you aren't getting funded, it's not due to DO discrimination.

Goro already cleared this up for me but thanks!!

how the heck should i know, i can't even tell what a good medical student is

Never said that.

 

[Dral]

I think my school is going to have good writers. We will see what happens.



We will see has yet to happen.

Does that make mean my school can produce good doctors then in @Dral opinion if we do research.

Sure. It would be an improvement imo. Good isn't the right word. I never implied a doctor had to do research to be good. Better is a better word, imo.

Edit: with the caveat that clinical work should've suffer in exchange.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Never said that.

um... no, i did...

 

[DermViser]

I'm sorry but in the post goro pointed I said you questioned DO education quality.

This is the quote:

"I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education in terms of quality of MS-3 clerkships, in terms of the match as far as which candidate is more favored (for good reason, IMHO), etc. "

How can you say this quote doesn't question DO education quality?

The full sentence was "I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education in terms of quality of MS-3 clerkships, in terms of the match as far as which candidate is more favored (for good reason, IMHO), etc. which other people have taken the time to carefully and slowly explain to you."

With my sentence before that saying that you defend it to the hilt, no matter what observations, evidence, and conclusions to the contrary.

I know I didn't spell it out but this was with reference to residency PDs and the match, and thus they have a hard time believing MSPEs (which is already bad enough as it is) when a person gets Honors on a clerkship.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

I'm trying to simmer down but its getting awfully hard. I ignored tons of posts I disagreed with before I exploded!!!

Look, you're enthusiastic and passionate about the path you've chosen.

No one faults you that.

But at the same time, you haven't even started your medical education. There is so much that you don't know...and don't even know you don't know!

Not that this makes those with more experience than you infallible by any means...

But at the start of your journey, a healthy dose of humility would go a long way.

 

[DermViser]

Look, you're enthusiastic and passionate about the path you've chosen.

No kidding. Good grief.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Sure. It would be an improvement imo. Good isn't the right word. I never implied a doctor had to do research to be good. Better is a better word, imo.

OK cool!!!

The full sentence was "I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education in terms of quality of MS-3 clerkships, in terms of the match as far as which candidate is more favored (for good reason, IMHO), etc. which other people have taken the time to carefully and slowly explain to you."

With my sentence before that saying that you defend it to the hilt, no matter what observations, evidence, and conclusions to the contrary.

I know I didn't spell it out but this was with reference to residency PDs and the match, and thus they have a hard time believing MSPEs (which is already bad enough as it is) when a person gets Honors on a clerkship.

You made three points.

-quality of education
-quality of ms3 clerkships
-and quality of match (which you thought was a good thing.

You also made the point I defend DO no matter what (not completely true but OK)

I think this is super clear.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Look, you're enthusiastic and passionate about the path you've chosen.

No one faults you that.

But at the same time, you haven't even started your medical education. There is so much that you don't know...and don't even know you don't know!

Not that this makes those with more experience than you infallible by any means...

But at the start of your journey, a healthy dose of humility would go a long way.

You're right there is a lot I don't know. I fully admit that.

No kidding. Good grief.

This reminded me of charlie brown and put a smile on my face. Thanks for that!

 

[DermViser]

You made three points.

-quality of education
-quality of ms3 clerkships
-and quality of match (which you thought was a good thing.

You also made the point I defend DO no matter what (not completely true but OK)

I think this is super clear.

Sigh. When I said "for good reason" -- meaning that residency PDs have the full right to be critical about grades on clinical clerkships on MSPEs bc they already know that there is already a LOT of grade inflation as it is. They've been burned before in the past by residents whose MSPEs were stellar. Medical schools make it near IMPOSSIBLE for residents/faculty to fail students on a clerkship - no matter how little medical knowledge the student has - at worst a student is given a "Pass".

This is compounded even further when students are on off-site private community hospital clerkships which aren't teaching institutions (in terms of educating residents thru residency programs).

 

[Dral]

I do know one thing...this thread was much more interesting than that chapter on scleroderma I was supposed to read tonight.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I do know one thing...this thread was much more interesting than that chapter on scleroderma I was supposed to read tonight.

and, ironically, the R01 i'm revising for the 90th time...

also, i'm pretty sure i learned about scleroderma no less than 4 times, in depth, during med school and i still have no idea what it is.

 

[Dral]

Sigh. When I said "for good reason" -- meaning that residency PDs have the full right to be critical about grades on clinical clerkships on MSPEs bc they already know that there is already a LOT of grade inflation as it is. They've been burned before in the past by residents whose MSPEs were stellar. Medical schools make it near IMPOSSIBLE for residents/faculty to fail students on a clerkship - no matter how little medical knowledge the student has - at worst a student is given a "Pass".

This is compounded even further when students are on off-site private community hospital clerkships which aren't teaching institutions (in terms of educating residents thru residency programs).

Grade inflation is pretty crazy. At my school, it's like you had to work to get something less than a B on clerkships. They started grading harder on purpose, but that's a slippery slope because the school knows it puts their students at a disadvantage in the match...and they obviously don't want that either.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

and, ironically, the R01 i'm revising for the 90th time...

also, i'm pretty sure i learned about scleroderma no less than 4 times, in depth, during med school and i still have no idea what it is.

All I know about scleroderma is that when I get a consult on someone with it, it's generally badness.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I do know one thing...this thread was much more interesting than that chapter on scleroderma I was supposed to read tonight.

Sorry I didn't get my work done either

 

[Dral]

In true Derm form, we have to learn every in and out of it. It's not just scleroderma. It's systemic sclerosis vs CREST vs localized scleroderma (morphea). I'm not sure how many pts with morphea get systemic form..if they do at all...I really need to get my butt in gear and read this chapter.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

All I know about scleroderma is that when I get a consult on someone with it, it's generally badness.

Just omt that thing ... DO ftw.


Kidding kidding don't kill me please

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

Just omt that thing ... DO ftw.


Kidding kidding don't kill me please

Yes feel free to try OMT on end stage scleroderma when surgery gets consulted for either a bowel obstruction or the pointless feeding tube placement

 

[wholeheartedly]

Glad to see this discussion is headed in a more civil direction, let's keep it that way folks.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Yes feel free to try OMT on end stage scleroderma when surgery gets consulted for either a bowel obstruction or the pointless feeding tube placement

You realize I said kidding right? Joke. Haha?

 

[DermViser]

Grade inflation is pretty crazy. At my school, it's like you had to work to get something less than a B on clerkships. They started grading harder on purpose, but that's a slippery slope because the school knows it puts their students at a disadvantage in the match...and they obviously don't want that either.

Yup, you essentially don't fail a clerkship unless it's bc of a professionalism issue. Other than that, you're pretty much get "High Pass" if you do your work. "Honors" is if you got "High Pass" on evals and then knocked out the shelf.

 

[DermViser]

In true Derm form, we have to learn every in and out of it. It's not just scleroderma. It's systemic sclerosis vs CREST vs localized scleroderma (morphea). I'm not sure how many pts with morphea get systemic form..if they do at all...I really need to get my butt in gear and read this chapter.

morphea = en coup de sabre (that's the extent of my associations so far)

If you had read medium Bolognia you'd be done @Dral: https://www.inkling.com/store/book/...t/?chapterId=21114337d0a247f6a738716c7cd91ef6

 

[The_Sunny_Doc]

There are very real concerns about the quality of clinical rotations at some DO schools, especially some of the newer (and for-profit) schools.

And the last time I checked, you've done the exact same number of DO rotations as Dermviser has.

The vast majority of your DO colleagues, excepting the most extreme DO-acolytes, have no trouble admitting these concerns.

It is troubling that you cannot.

Do you know anything about the rotations for ACOM and CUSOM? How can one accurately gauge the quality of the rotations at the brand new DO schools?

 

[AlteredScale]

Do you know anything about the rotations for ACOM and CUSOM? How can one accurately gauge the quality of the rotations at the brand new DO schools?

1) probably best to ask that on the osteopathic medical student thread!
2) It's really hard to gauge that. One rotation can be great the other can be terrible. And it is possible to have a terrible experience at a teaching hospital with residents while getting good responsibilities and learning new things in a preceptor based rotation. For the new schools just see where they let you do your clerkships and research the hospital a little to see their reputation. I might start a thread that compiles all the DO sites for review later in.