What do aspiring and current M.Ds think of D.Os now?

[Dral]

Keep in mind that even after the residency merger, the osteopathic ortho, derm, surgery, radiology etc. residencies will have a OMM requirement, making it very difficult for MD grads to access those residencies.

What's the radiologist going to do, OMM on his computer screen's going to help him diagnose that pneumonia? OMM would really help me just melt those warts away. "Ok, so you have mild/moderate acne. Here is some tazarac and sit tight, here comes the OMM. Oh wait, I'm 10 minute double booked and I don't even get reimbursed for OMM...just the tazarac then I guess."

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[DoctorSynthesis]

Just saying... my DO school (enrollment ~300) has 46 affiliated programs and 2200+ AOA slots. This includes every specialty imaginable... and we match plenty of students in ACGME positions as well. DO is not a death sentence.

Sounds about right

 

[DermViser]

But that's the thing, no one has been trying to throw DOs under the bus, you just keep thinking we are.

The issue here has not been DOs as colleagues. The issue, at least for the purposes of SDN, is re: statistics re: realities of the match for a DO vs. MD graduate. Everyone like to use the D.O. exception who makes it to Hopkins, but most people should not ride their trajectory based on exception - MD or DO.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

What's the radiologist going to do, OMM on his computer screen's going to help him diagnose that pneumonia? OMM would really help me just melt those warts away. "Ok, so you have mild/moderate acne. Here is some tazarac and sit tight, here comes the OMM. Oh wait, I'm 10 minute double booked and I don't even get reimbursed for OMM...just the tazarac then I guess."

+1 that's funny. You made me laugh. OMM isnt for all specialties of course

 

[DermViser]

Saying we have a sucky education isnt throwing us under the bus? I would never say us MDs had a sub par education.

I said DO education is sucky? Where?

Of course you would never say it - bc you'd be laughed out of the room for saying such a thing.

 

[SkipJunior]

How will an American patient see the MD behind your name, if you're not practicing?

I may not be practicing but tens of thousands of practicing MD physicians in the US received their MD degrees in the Caribbean. I would say your MD brother but you're obviously not a physician but just a PA/NP. Where's my tea? I can't wait much longer LOL.

 

[SkipJunior]

What's the radiologist going to do, OMM on his computer screen's going to help him diagnose that pneumonia? OMM would really help me just melt those warts away. "Ok, so you have mild/moderate acne. Here is some tazarac and sit tight, here comes the OMM. Oh wait, I'm 10 minute double booked and I don't even get reimbursed for OMM...just the tazarac then I guess."

Medicare does reimburse for OMM.

 

[SpartanWolverine]

No one said it was. But there are not enough D.O. residency slots for all D.O. students. And many of the ACGME slots that D.O. students do obtain are in non-competitive specialties. Many of the ACGME slots in competitive specialties are effectively closed off to D.O. students and those premeds who are deciding between the MD vs. DO route should know that reality, whether it's right or wrong.

Fair. I guess I chose a good DO school to attend, then

I have noticed some ACGME schools explicitly exclude DO applicants from their residencies, but I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I guess it's "stay within my school network and do whatever kind of residency I'm realistically competitive for" or "take my chances with ACGME programs that penalize me for having a GPA that was a bit low during undergrad and still hold that against me regardless of my medical competency". All I want in the end is a decent residency in a specialty that I'm interested in... I really don't care if it's a spot in a Partners hospital or not.

 

[DermViser]

There is not enough spots because they know a good portion will go acgme.

So you're saying that the AOA purposefully doesn't have enough spots bc they're aware that their students will purposefully try to get ACGME spots? That doesn't ring any warning bells to you?

 

[SkipJunior]

I said DO education is sucky? Where?

Of course you would never say it - bc you'd be laughed out of the room for saying such a thing.

oh of course because the Puerto rican and HBCU MD schools (not to mention the Caribbean MD schools) are the creme de la creme. What are you smoking?

 

[RogueUnicorn]

Saying we have a sucky education isnt throwing us under the bus? I would never say us MDs had a sub par education.

SOME DO schools do have really suspect clinical rotations. That's just true man

 

[DermViser]

Fair. I guess I chose a good DO school to attend, then

I have noticed some ACGME schools explicitly exclude DO applicants from their residencies, but I suppose I'll cross that bridge when I get to it. I guess it's "stay within my school network and do whatever kind of residency I'm realistically competitive for" or "take my chances with ACGME programs that penalize me for having a GPA that was a bit low during undergrad". All I want in the end is a decent residency in a specialty that I'm interested in... I really don't care if it's a spot in a Partners hospital or not.

It isn't your low undergrad GPA that is being penalized. It's a lot more complex than that as I have listed as to why ACGME residency PDs prefer MD applicants from LCME accredited schools. Yes, there are some places that are quite explicit (NYU) who say that they do not take DOs.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

You are so knowledgeable about DO rotations. WOW. How many DO rotations have you gone on? Zero? Hmmm thats weird.

I know why don't we ask someone like GORO or a DO student or DO resident or DO doctor as I have done?

No? You don't want to do that? Hmm that's weird. It seems like only one of us is actually curious about learning the truth.

There are very real concerns about the quality of clinical rotations at some DO schools, especially some of the newer (and for-profit) schools.

And the last time I checked, you've done the exact same number of DO rotations as Dermviser has.

The vast majority of your DO colleagues, excepting the most extreme DO-acolytes, have no trouble admitting these concerns.

It is troubling that you cannot.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

I said DO education is sucky? Where?

Of course you would never say it - bc you'd be laughed out of the room for saying such a thing.

You know I can see and quote your old posts right?

How inconvient.

Here is a quote from dermviser

"I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education"

Right there you said DO doesn't receive a good education. Time for you to backpedal.

 

[SkipJunior]

There are very real concerns about the quality of clinical rotations at some DO schools, especially some of the newer (and for-profit) schools.

The vast majority of your DO colleagues, excepting the most extreme DO-acolytes, have no trouble admitting these concerns.

It is troubling that you cannot.

could you please comment on the clinical rotations of the Caribbean MD schools and the Puerto rican and HBCU MD schools please? After all, they are your MD brothers.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

SOME DO schools do have really suspect clinical rotations. That's just true man

I actually agree with that. You must be careful in picking your school. Lucom / rvu have serious problems.

 

[SouthernSurgeon]

could you please comment on the clinical rotations of the Caribbean MD schools and the Puerto rican and HBCU MD schools please? After all, they are your MD brothers.

They aren't my MD brothers, unless they gained LCME approval at some point that I missed out on.

There are lots of concerns about the quality of offshore schools' rotations, especially pertaining to the COI inherent in purchasing rotation slots

 

[DermViser]

You know I can see and quote your old posts right?

How inconvient.

Here is a quote from dermviser

"I was more talking about defending the DO degree in terms of quality of education"

Right there you said DO doesn't receive a good education. Time for you to backpedal.

You are free to quote my prior posts. I never said directly or used the words that it was "sucky". You interpreted that sentence as me saying it was "sucky". Nice try though.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

There are very real concerns about the quality of clinical rotations at some DO schools, especially some of the newer (and for-profit) schools.

And the last time I checked, you've done the exact same number of DO rotations as Dermviser has.

The vast majority of your DO colleagues, excepting the most extreme DO-acolytes, have no trouble admitting these concerns.

It is troubling that you cannot.

No I agree about that some DO schools have problems. Lucom for example. Others (kcom for example) have good rotations. @Awesome Sauceome actually did a good job at detailing that.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I actually agree with that. You must be careful in picking your school. Lucom / rvu have serious problems.

because of these few programs, it brings the average down

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

You are free to quote my prior posts. I never said directly or used the words that it was "sucky". You interpreted that sentence as me saying it was "sucky". Nice try though.

You didn't say sucky fine. What you said was equivalent . you're just using semantics now.

 

[DermViser]

They aren't my MD brothers, unless they gained LCME approval at some point that I missed out on.

There are lots of concerns about the quality of offshore schools' rotations, especially pertaining to the COI inherent in purchasing rotation slots

The person you're responding to should know all about that, as he went to an offshore Caribbean medical school (and went to a non Big 3, due to cost) himself and at the end ended up without a residency, and now is possibly considering going the D.O. route.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

I may not be practicing but tens of thousands of practicing MD physicians in the US received their MD degrees in the Caribbean. I would say your MD brother but you're obviously not a physician but just a PA/NP. Where's my tea? I can't wait much longer LOL.

so now we're not talking about you? Get your own tea, faux-physician.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

because of these few programs, it brings the average down

If you are attending a DO school do your research and pick a good one. I hate lucom for watering down the DO profession just as much as the next guy but you can easily avoid them.

 

[DermViser]

You didn't say sucky fine. What you said was equivalent . you're just using semantics now.

Glad you backtracked. The rest is your opinion. Thank you.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

If you are attending a DO school do your research and pick a good one. I hate lucom for watering down the DO profession just as much as the next guy but you can easily avoid them.

And now we are all in agreement and this is the type of sentiment being expressed by everyone else you're fighting. I promise. You really need to put down the pitchfork once in a while

 

[SkipJunior]

The person you're responding to should know all about that, as he went to an offshore Caribbean medical school (and went to a non Big 3, due to cost) himself and at the end ended up without a residency, and now is possibly considering going the D.O. route.

but I reiterate, when American patients see a physician with a MD in the physician's coat, they are not going to ask if the MD was from a Carib school or a LCME school. Therefore the poor rotations of Carib MD schools make all MD rotations look back. Do you now see the flaw in your logic?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

So you're saying that the AOA purposefully doesn't have enough spots bc they're aware that their students will purposefully try to get ACGME spots? That doesn't ring any warning bells to you?

They are being realistic that's good.

 

[DermViser]

If you are attending a DO school do your research and pick a good one. I hate lucom for watering down the DO profession just as much as the next guy but you can easily avoid them.

So now the onus of choosing a good D.O. school is completely on the applicant before shelling out a six figure student loan? The information asymmetry and getting answers is already bad enough as it is for applicants. Maybe if COCA acted more like the LCME was previously, it wouldn't be an issue.

 

[DermViser]

but I reiterate, when American patients see a physician with a MD in the physician's coat, they are not going to ask if the MD was from a Carib school or a LCME school. Therefore the poor rotations of Carib MD schools make all MD rotations look back. Do you now see the flaw in your logic?

You don't think patients Google their physicians, considering everyone has a smart phone, before they even set foot in your office? Have you heard of Healthgrades, Vitals.com, Doximity, etc.?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

And now we are all in agreement and this is the type of sentiment being expressed by everyone else you're fighting. I promise. You really need to put down the pitchfork once in a while

Im not defendeding lucom or rvu or every DO school. I'm defending the good ones which there are plenty. Msu/kcumb/dmu/western/ccom/touros/NSU/umdnj/PCOM/oklahamastate/azcom/nyit/tcom/kcom etc

 

[SkipJunior]

So now the onus of choosing a good D.O. school is completely on the applicant before shelling out a six figure student loan? The information asymmetry and getting answers is already bad enough as it is for applicants. Maybe if COCA acted more like the LCME was previously, it wouldn't be an issue.

just like the onus of choosing an MD school is on the applicant. Otherwise the applicant will shell out six figures on a MD school like Ross or Saba in the Caribbean. My physician brain is too smart for your PA brain, DermViser.

 

[DermViser]

Im not defendeding lucom or rvu or every DO school. I'm defending the good ones which there are plenty. Msu/kcumb/dmu/western/ccom/touros/NSU/umdnj/PCOM/oklahamastate/azcom/nyit/tcom/kcom etc

According to a post on SDN (which I don't know if it's true - I'll admit) they say that the grades on clerkships are fully derived from the end-of-rotation shelf exam. You don't think PDs will raise an eyebrow to that, when it comes to evaluating applicants?

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

So now the onus of choosing a good D.O. school is completely on the applicant before shelling out a six figure student loan? The information asymmetry and getting answers is already bad enough as it is for applicants. Maybe if COCA acted more like the LCME was previously, it wouldn't be an issue.

Yes it is. I hope before spending 300 k you do your research. I did.

 

[SkipJunior]

Im not defendeding lucom or rvu or every DO school. I'm defending the good ones which there are plenty. Msu/kcumb/dmu/western/ccom/touros/NSU/umdnj/PCOM/oklahamastate/azcom/nyit/tcom/kcom etc

what @DoctorSynthesis and I are angry about is that you guys are tarnishing all DO schools under the same brush...that's wrong!

 

[ASD2019]

but I reiterate, when American patients see a physician with a MD in the physician's coat, they are not going to ask if the MD was from a Carib school or a LCME school. Therefore the poor rotations of Carib MD schools make all MD rotations look back. Do you now see the flaw in your logic?

So maybe you should spend your very "limited" free time honestly informing premeds (who might fall for same the trap) about your past mistakes instead of just trolling

 

[Dral]

Ok look. I personally work with some DO Derm residents. Pretty closely actually. They are smart nice people. I really like them and am glad to call them my colleagues. I would have no problem referring a family member or friend to them for care. That is the important question I ask myself when I look at other physicians.

I know this is the internets and flexing epeens is the rule, not the exception, but damn...I think we've explored every facet of this argument and can probably wind it down soon.

 

[SkipJunior]

So maybe you should spend your very "limited" free time honestly informing premeds (who might fall for same the trap) about your past mistakes instead of just trolling

That's what I have been doing. I don't need your advice.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

According to a post on SDN (which I don't know if it's true - I'll admit) they say that the grades on clerkships are fully derived from the end-of-rotation shelf exam. You don't think PDs will raise an eyebrow to that, when it comes to evaluating applicants?

I was talking to an MD med student from a mid tier school. She told me thats how MD rotations worked. End of rotation exam. Maybe a DO school student can enlighten us.

 

[DermViser]

just like the onus of choosing an MD school is on the applicant. Otherwise the applicant will shell out six figures on a MD school like Ross or Saba in the Caribbean. My physician brain is too smart for your PA brain, DermViser.

A United States MD school is LCME accredited. All student applicants are assured that all allopathic schools in the United States that are LCME accredited meet minimum standards in which to enter residency training. That doesn't mean that all LCME accredited med schools are equal in every way as the LCME has even stated that they are not a ranking system. That's not their job.

Ross and SABA are not LCME accredited - so students have absolutely no assurance on its quality and so with the Carribbean it is very much buyer beware.

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

Ok look. I personally work with some DO Derm residents. Pretty closely actually. They are smart nice people. I really like them and am glad to call them my colleagues. I would have no problem referring a family member or friend to them for care. That is the important question I ask myself when I look at other physicians.

I know this is the internets and flexing epeens is the rule, not the exception, but damn...I think we've explored every facet of this argument and can probably wind it down soon.

I'm starting to like you.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

but I reiterate, when American patients see a physician with a MD in the physician's coat, they are not going to ask if the MD was from a Carib school or a LCME school. Therefore the poor rotations of Carib MD schools make all MD rotations look back. Do you now see the flaw in your logic?

Nobody of course has been talking about patient perspective at all until you brought it up, but keep trucking on man. Patients see NPs and think they are MDs, hell you put scrubs on a mophead they'll think it's a physician, so wtf are you talking about

They are being realistic that's good.

It's also realistic to say that there are AOA residencies (few? lots? that I don't know) that are not going to make the grade. It's also realistic to say that there are doors that will be closed to DOs.

Im not defendeding lucom or rvu or every DO school. I'm defending the good ones which there are plenty. Msu/kcumb/dmu/western/ccom/touros/NSU/umdnj/PCOM/oklahamastate/azcom/nyit/tcom/kcom etc

But you never qualified any of your posts in such a manner. When looking at the whole, we need to consider the rvu's right there with the pcom's, just like meharry is considered right along with harvard.

According to a post on SDN (which I don't know if it's true - I'll admit) they say that the grades on clerkships are fully derived from the end-of-rotation shelf exam. You don't think PDs will raise an eyebrow to that, when it comes to evaluating applicants?

To be fair there are MD programs like that too

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

just like the onus of choosing an MD school is on the applicant. Otherwise the applicant will shell out six figures on a MD school like Ross or Saba in the Caribbean. My physician brain is too smart for your PA brain, DermViser.

Skip please don't personally attack anyone.

 

[DermViser]

I was talking to an MD med student for a mid tier school. She told me thats how MD rotations worked. End of rotation exam. Maybe a DO school can enlighten us.

Yes, I know MD rotations have an end-of-rotation exam, I'm well aware of that. It's the NBME subject exam (shelf). What I am saying is that the person said tha tapparently at KCUMB the grade is 100% derived from the exam score. MD rotations have the shelf exam but it doesn't 100% decide the clerkship grade.

 

[SkipJunior]

Skip please don't personally attack anyone.

You are right, I was losing control over my anger. Thanks for the reminder.

 

[RogueUnicorn]

just like the onus of choosing an MD school is on the applicant. Otherwise the applicant will shell out six figures on a MD school like Ross or Saba in the Caribbean. My non-physician blood bank manager brain is too smart for your PA brain, DermViser.

fixed that for you

 

[DoctorSynthesis]

fixed that for you

Again please no personal attacks.

 

[WillburCobb]

 

[SkipJunior]

fixed that for you

Actually it should be MD brain since I have a MD diploma. I guess us MDs are always superior, eh?

 

[Dral]

Medicare does reimburse for OMM.

Luckily Not many of my Medicare aged patients come in complaining of acne.

Sorry, had to.