What do I need to know about coronavirus?

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Months ago, there was something about depressed EF for a while (a month?) after acute illness. I posted something very similar about 90% etc, but I haven't looked back for it.
I don't doubt depressed EF can happen. But depressed ejection fractions in 90%, even the people that had no symptoms, or only self-limited cold/flu symptoms? I don't know. This does not compute with me. But what do I know, I'm just a silly blue/white airplane on the internet.

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I don't doubt depressed EF can happen. But depressed ejection fractions in 90%, even the people that had no symptoms, or only self-limited cold/flu symptoms? I don't know. This does not compute with me. But what do I know, I'm just a silly blue/white airplane on the internet.
Oh, I agree with you.
 
This is what I posted on May 1, 2020, but, it was in the Practicing Physicians forum, so, if you're not a member, you'll get an error message if you click:

I'm wondering about a year or so from now. 90% of heart transplant needing patients are so due to viral-induced cardiomyopathy (mostly Coxsackie). There are these reports of severely diminished EF, but, then, they bounce back. However, I'll wager (not real money) that not everyone will, and the need for heart tx will go through the roof.
 
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This is what I posted on May 1, 2020, but, it was in the Practicing Physicians forum, so, if you're not a member, you'll get an error message if you click:
I'm just a lowly regular-forum guy.
 
According to his/her posts I believe fart daddy smooth is a nurse.

Guilty as charged. Just here to read & learn from yall.

The vast majority of people with known COVID-19 recover uneventfully. There's also a huge portion (up to 6x's diagnosed cases) estimated to have infection so mild they never even get diagnosed or have any symptoms at all. But now you're saying "up to 50% of those people," after having no outward effects other than self limited URI/flu symptoms, suddenly have clinically significant heart damage so severe it's stripping the DNA out of their heart cells in a way that it's going to silently lurk in them for years and kill them without warning someday like a "old copper wiring" in a ticking time bomb?

I could be wrong. COVID-19 has surprised me more than once. But it sounds like bull***t to me.

Ok the "copper wiring" line was a bit hyperbolic :D. Still, more than one study has shown radiographic evidence of heart a/o lung damage in asymptomatic patients, suggesting the possibility of subclinical damage in people with mild/asymptomatic cases. Will this prove to be clinically significant in the long term, who knows, but I'd rather keep my cardpulm system intact and unharmed all the same.

I'm not making any claims or predictions, I just find the new information coming out to be concerning. I used to think "ah the 'roni is just the flu w higher mortality rate esp for the elderly & infirm, if I get it no biggie". Now I treat it with considerably more respect.
 
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I suspect the hospitals will make us

The prospect of being mandated to get an unproven, understudied vaccine is a little disturbing. I would hope that it's not legal to mandate someone get a vaccine marketed under an EUA.

From a macro perspective, I'm more concerned that the initially marketed vaccines will be ineffective, leading to false reassurance and a worsening of the outbreak rather than any actual side-effects. That and the fact that it'll embolden the anti-vaxxers.
 
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The prospect of being mandated to get an unproven, understudied vaccine is a little disturbing. I would hope that it's not legal to mandate someone get a vaccine marketed under an EUA.

From a macro perspective, I'm more concerned that the initially marketed vaccines will be ineffective, leading to false reassurance and a worsening of the outbreak rather than any actual side-effects. That and the fact that it'll embolden the anti-vaxxers.

It will be interesting to see how work places handle it.
Even though we're "forced" to get the flu shot, really you can put in an exemption and then wear a mask if you don't get the shot. Obviously everyone is wearing masks these days in health care settings (well at least I hope they are, I have heard of instances of that not happening, crazy), so it seems like there won't be any other "penalty" for not getting a vaccine.
 
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It will be interesting to see how work places handle it.
Even though we're "forced" to get the flu shot, really you can put in an exemption and then wear a mask if you don't get the shot. Obviously everyone is wearing masks these days in health care settings (well at least I hope they are, I have heard of instances of that not happening, crazy), so it seems like there won't be any other "penalty" for not getting a vaccine.
Not at UPMC. You have to prove that you had a real complication (like Guillan-Barré), otherwise, you just don't work for the entire flu season. About 5 years ago, one could opt out, after signing a page that made a person sound like an anti-vaxxer.
 
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It will be interesting to see how work places handle it.
Even though we're "forced" to get the flu shot, really you can put in an exemption and then wear a mask if you don't get the shot. Obviously everyone is wearing masks these days in health care settings (well at least I hope they are, I have heard of instances of that not happening, crazy), so it seems like there won't be any other "penalty" for not getting a vaccine.
I think if you mandate people to get it there will be a huge push back. If you only allow medical and highest need personnel to get it and deny it from others people will knock down the door to get it.

or:
Patient: I will never get that vaccine! It's the devil!
Dr: Well that's good because you could not get even if you wanted; you don't qualify.
Patient: Wait, What? There is limited supply and I can't get it?
Dr: Sorry
Patient: You will give me that vaccine, it isn't fair! AAHHH GIVE IT NOW!

people being people
 
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All the talk about mortality neglects to account for long term damage, IMO. We don't know what kind of a toll this virus takes on the body's organs.
90% of people needing heart transplant need it due to viral myocarditis, usually Coxsackie. I would not be surprised, at all, if something similar happened.
I've known 10 friends/co-workers with COVID who have recovered. So far no long-term morbidity. I think the scare over morbidity is a last-ditch effort to induce terror in people, since the mortality isn't living up to what was originally foretold.

This is just a verbal report from a doctor, so it's not peer-reviewed, but it bears consideration:
High rates of myocarditis reported in college athletes who contracted COVID19.
 
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How do you take a minimally or asymptotic person get them a cardiac MRI and say they then have myocarditis? These folks are sick, with persistent tachycardia, arrhythmias, and reduced EF. Not saying COVID doesn’t cause myocarditis, but I find this hard to believe.
Whatcha got there doc?

"I got a whole team of healthy 19-year-olds with no symptoms of COVID and no symptoms of myocarditis or anything!"

Uh...okay. So? Who cares?

"But, but, we made them all go in the MRI scanner. And we found stuff!"

Uh..okay. So?

"But..but we found myocarditis and, and.....some kidney cysts....and, and.....some little lymph nodes...and..."

But are they sick?

"Uh well....no. They're not sick."

Not sick at all?

"No."

Then why did you MRI all of them?

"To prove they're sick!"
 
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Apparently someone in the Big Ten world really really does not want to play football right now. If you read the above article, they admit have have no clue what to do with their "incidentaloma" findings, but I guarantee you they know damn well it's going to be used to keep those kids off the field. I can only imagine how pissed off these players are going to be when they realized they were duped into taking these scans from doctors looking for "subclinical asymptomatic myocarditis" (which is not even a thing) knowing full well they would have no idea what to do with the information if they found it. My guess is that someone with a vested interest in the Big Ten not playing football this fall, sent them to search for reasons to justify not putting these kids on the field. I honestly feel bad for them. It must be soul crushing watching all the other players from other conferences playing, doing just fine, advancing their careers, running up and down the field with their "subclinical myocarditis,' which isn't even a thing.
 
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I just got picked for the vaccine trial. Going next week!
 
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Not at UPMC. You have to prove that you had a real complication (like Guillan-Barré), otherwise, you just don't work for the entire flu season. About 5 years ago, one could opt out, after signing a page that made a person sound like an anti-vaxxer.

Well that’s good! I’ve never worked anywhere that strict.
 
Speaking of flu shots, I got offered one at Costco, and gladly took it. But seeing as it's September, do you guys think I got it too early? how long does it take for the antibodies to mature, and how long does the vaccine generated immunity last?
 
How do you take a minimally or asymptotic person get them a cardiac MRI and say they then have myocarditis? These folks are sick, with persistent tachycardia, arrhythmias, and reduced EF. Not saying COVID doesn’t cause myocarditis, but I find this hard to believe.
I really don't know. The article I linked doesn't have nearly enough detail to draw strong conclusions from. And I would agree that asymptomatic myocarditis is of dubitable clinical significance. The doc quoted even said "the data on cardiomyopathy is preliminary and incomplete" but I think it's interesting enough to be on our radar.
 
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Speaking of flu shots, I got offered one at Costco, and gladly took it. But seeing as it's September, do you guys think I got it too early? how long does it take for the antibodies to mature, and how long does the vaccine generated immunity last?
2 weeks to kick in, substantial reduction in efficacy at 4 months.

I recommend early October or when the news starts reporting on flu cases whichever comes first.
 
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Speaking of flu shots, I got offered one at Costco, and gladly took it. But seeing as it's September, do you guys think I got it too early? how long does it take for the antibodies to mature, and how long does the vaccine generated immunity last?

CDC is still saying Sept and Oct are good time to get flu vaccine. August is considered too early.
It should last 6 months, so getting in Sept means it's likely not giving you that much immunity at the tail end of flu season, but I think it's fine if you're not immunocompromised.
I'm waiting until our supply at work comes in in a few weeks.
 
I know I may be biased but no big 10 football in the fall for people of the midwest will have huge social impact.
I am not from the midwest but have covered football there and this was a common scenario:

Player during a high school game gets hurt we get him to the sideline and I examine him.
before I can give the coach a heads up players parent is at the fence. I walk up ready to explain the injury and before I can say anything the parent screams at me: "Tell my son if he doesn't get back on the field he is grounded and looses his allowance"
 
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I know I may be biased but no big 10 football in the fall for people of the midwest will have huge social impact.
I am not from the midwest but have covered football there and this was a common scenario:

Player during a high school game gets hurt we get him to the sideline and I examine him.
before I can give the coach a heads up players parent is at the fence. I walk up ready to explain the injury and before I can say anything the parent screams at me: "Tell my son if he doesn't get back on the field he is grounded and looses his allowance"
I'm looking on the bright side: if Clemson wins this year we can all say it doesn't count because there are so many good teams who won't be playing.
 
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It will be interesting to see how work places handle it.
Even though we're "forced" to get the flu shot, really you can put in an exemption and then wear a mask if you don't get the shot. Obviously everyone is wearing masks these days in health care settings (well at least I hope they are, I have heard of instances of that not happening, crazy), so it seems like there won't be any other "penalty" for not getting a vaccine.

I don't see much point in getting a vaccine if one cannot alter their behavior (like not wear a mask, goggles, etc.). That's the whole point of a vaccine.

Especially for this virus where it's seemingly getting more benign as each month pass. Now before everybody writes "pe-shawwww" at that last comment...we have done a markedly better job in Sept 2020 vs Feb 2020 handling this virus that is 10x more deadly than the flu.

If I'm not allowed to adjust my behavior and I still have to wear a mask and goggles and all that for every patient I see, then I will let others get the vaccine and I'll wait a year. I'm around it every single day and I've been fine.

(I did go to LabCorp and get my SARS Ab test done, and it was negative. *#$%!)
 
My guess is that someone with a vested interest in the Big Ten not playing football this fall, sent them to search for reasons to justify not putting these kids on the field.

Who financially stands to benefit from the Big Ten not playing football?
 
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I don't see much point in getting a vaccine if one cannot alter their behavior (like not wear a mask, goggles, etc.). That's the whole point of a vaccine.

Especially for this virus where it's seemingly getting more benign as each month pass. Now before everybody writes "pe-shawwww" at that last comment...we have done a markedly better job in Sept 2020 vs Feb 2020 handling this virus that is 10x more deadly than the flu.

If I'm not allowed to adjust my behavior and I still have to wear a mask and goggles and all that for every patient I see, then I will let others get the vaccine and I'll wait a year. I'm around it every single day and I've been fine.

(I did go to LabCorp and get my SARS Ab test done, and it was negative. *#$%!)

I think this year/this first round will be truly too early to tell how effective the vaccine is at preventing morbidity and mortality. Plus obviously not everyone is going to get the vaccine and our immune system still needs time to adjust. So I’m fine with getting a vaccine and still have to wear a mask in healthcare settings and indoor settings.
 
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I think this year/this first round will be truly too early to tell how effective the vaccine is at preventing morbidity and mortality. Plus obviously not everyone is going to get the vaccine and our immune system still needs time to adjust. So I’m fine with getting a vaccine and still have to wear a mask in healthcare settings and indoor settings.
That's what the 30k+ trials are for. After getting the (likely) 2 doses I don't plan to mask up outside of healthcare settings and if the patient is vaccinated I'd be OK with letting them not mask up as encouragement to get vaccinated.
 
That's what the 30k+ trials are for. After getting the (likely) 2 doses I don't plan to mask up outside of healthcare settings and if the patient is vaccinated I'd be OK with letting them not mask up as encouragement to get vaccinated.

Well that’s your choice! But I hope healthcare settings don’t get rid of mask mandates this year if indeed a vaccine does come to market in Nov or Dec.

The phase 3 trials are just starting now and will be able to track our immune response (we get periodic blood work), but there’s no way in 1 month we’ll truly know if morbidity and mortality have gone down significantly.

It’ll be interesting to see if the mRNA vaccine or the inactivated virus vaccine comes out on top.

I’m going to certainly keep my mask on this winter on the subway, in the grocery store and at work regardless of vaccine status as those are all times I’m in close proximity of people for periods of time. I’ll also have no clue what the vaccine status is of most people every time I leave my house. I certainly am not panicked or fear-mongering, I just don’t think everything can magically go back to "normal" in December, so I’m going to keep wearing a mask and taking general precautions. But I guess only time will tell how the next couple months go!
 
Well that’s your choice! But I hope healthcare settings don’t get rid of mask mandates this year if indeed a vaccine does come to market in Nov or Dec.

The phase 3 trials are just starting now and will be able to track our immune response (we get periodic blood work), but there’s no way in 1 month we’ll truly know if morbidity and mortality have gone down significantly.

It’ll be interesting to see if the mRNA vaccine or the inactivated virus vaccine comes out on top.

I’m going to certainly keep my mask on this winter on the subway, in the grocery store and at work regardless of vaccine status as those are all times I’m in close proximity of people for periods of time. I’ll also have no clue what the vaccine status is of most people every time I leave my house. I certainly am not panicked or fear-mongering, I just don’t think everything can magically go back to "normal" in December, so I’m going to keep wearing a mask and taking general precautions. But I guess only time will tell how the next couple months go!
I was working under the idea that a vaccine would be ready at best by early 2021. The idea of a November 1 vaccine is ridiculous.

Several phase 3 trials started in August. January would give us a 3-4 month run to see at least short term morbidity/mortality data.
 
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I was working under the idea that a vaccine would be ready at best by early 2021. The idea of a November 1 vaccine is ridiculous.

Several phase 3 trials started in August. January would give us a 3-4 month run to see at least short term morbidity/mortality data.

Well the cdc said be prepared by Nov 1, which I’m glad they’re putting it on peoples radar so we hopefully don’t run in to a huge logistics problem once it is ready. And Dr Fauci said could be likely by the end of the year so we’ll see.

I think they’re enrolling a lot of people in my city which is good since we were hit so hard, but at the same time our numbers are so low right now I wonder how they’re going to tell how effective it is other than by looking at the immune response in our blood work. And if there is an immune response how long will it last? Won’t know that either, hence why they’re following us for 2 years.

Obviously things can get bad again, but I still don’t see how by Nov or Dec we’ll have a total picture of effectiveness since people won’t even be getting their 2nd dose until the end of Sept at the earliest. I won’t get mine until mid October.

So continued masking and reasonable measures it is for me! I hope mask mandates in healthcare facilities don’t go away as soon as the vaccine comes out.
 
I hope a vaccine is released even if not effective. Hell, they can even release a vaccine under the brand Normalsaline and it would be great. At this point the politicians just need some sort of "science" that the public can understand in order to open things up again. We need to get all businesses open again at full capacity, we need kids back in schools, and we need to get rid of some of the arbitrary masking rules (like walking to your restaurant table in a mask then immediately taking it off at the table). Also the plexiglass barriers need to go.....
 
Well the cdc said be prepared by Nov 1, which I’m glad they’re putting it on peoples radar so we hopefully don’t run in to a huge logistics problem once it is ready. And Dr Fauci said could be likely by the end of the year so we’ll see.

I think they’re enrolling a lot of people in my city which is good since we were hit so hard, but at the same time our numbers are so low right now I wonder how they’re going to tell how effective it is other than by looking at the immune response in our blood work. And if there is an immune response how long will it last? Won’t know that either, hence why they’re following us for 2 years.

Obviously things can get bad again, but I still don’t see how by Nov or Dec we’ll have a total picture of effectiveness since people won’t even be getting their 2nd dose until the end of Sept at the earliest. I won’t get mine until mid October.

So continued masking and reasonable measures it is for me! I hope mask mandates in healthcare facilities don’t go away as soon as the vaccine comes out.
Yeah that November 1 date is clearly politically motivated (like the recommendation not to test asymptomatic people who were exposed) which is why I'm ignoring it.

We know that historically coronavirus antibody levels do wane with time although they remain detectable for usually a few years. Someone here posted previously a study on antibody timelines for various other strains of coronavirus that looked at this. Can't remember who posted it though.
 
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I still don’t understand the perspective that it is possible to never be exposed to or contract SARS-CoV-2 if adhering to some or all efforts including masks, social distancing and a potential vaccine. Do people think this virus is going to be completely eliminated at some point in the near future without becoming forever endemic? Do people think a vaccine will offer permanent immunity, or plan to receive an annual vaccine every year going toward if vaccines only offer temporary immunity like we’d expect based upon our experience with influenza immunizations? At some point you will be exposed to this virus whether or not you have some natural or vaccine induced immunity of varying magnitude, and then either recover or not.

I think the majority of the world will be exposed and/or infected before a vaccine is widely available. I don’t get the sense that very many others believe this and it is an idea that definitely isn’t discussed much. I don’t trust the data regarding positive cases. I think it is the tip of the iceberg with the shape of the tip varying based upon many variables. The iceberg underneath the surface is exponentially larger though and dwarfs the shape of the small tip above the surface of cases we have diagnosed.

I tell young or middle aged relatively healthy people frequently that I think they possibly/probably have an infection with COVID-19 when they present with URI symptoms during the summer in the middle of a pandemic regardless of positive, negative or no testing. I’m frequently met with push back that they couldn’t possibly have it. People are in denial about it as they are worried about their own mortality, or they don’t want to be ostracized and forced to quarantine at home, or they have misconceptions about the virus from the media thinking that it couldn’t possibly just give you mild symptoms. I’ve seen plenty of physicians and nurses with mild coughing and sneezing this summer who state, “it’s just allergies” - even when they lose their voices with laryngitis. No one wants to get tested and miss work. Just like every year when no one wants to keep their kids out of school when sick. This virus is everywhere because we were never that serious about stopping its spread if too personally inconvenient. We’re altruistic as humans to an extent, but also inherently have a ‘me first,’ survival of the fittest mentality. Many mask up to help others, but go to work or school even if mildly sick based upon our own interests. That’s not an effective compromise.

There's multiple EM docs at my academic shop who've been on TV and continue to advocate for complete lockdowns for any surge in cases regardless of the potential consequences. I think its basically a form of denial where they refuse to accept that its spread beyond containment which means that we can still eliminate it with a complete lockdown that stops all virus transmission. This is obviously not possible given the current situation but that seems to be their reasoning when asked to defend their position. Regardless we're dealing with a highly contagious respiratory virus that rapidly spreads among people with mild flu symptoms. As a result I don't personally think its very realistic to expect that people will self isolate at home for a couple weeks if they develop a little cough or runny nose which might be from the virus.
 
There's multiple EM docs at my academic shop who've been on TV and continue to advocate for complete lockdowns for any surge in cases regardless of the potential consequences.
Of course they want lockdowns. Their jobs will be exempt from the lockdown, they'll keep making 10 times the average American salary while the rest of their city or state will go bankrupt, while they can preen around about their virtuousness. Phony altruism at its best.
 
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I tell young or middle aged relatively healthy people frequently that I think they possibly/probably have an infection with COVID-19 when they present with URI symptoms during the summer in the middle of a pandemic regardless of positive, negative or no testing. I’m frequently met with push back that they couldn’t possibly have it. People are in denial about it as they are worried about their own mortality, or they don’t want to be ostracized and forced to quarantine at home, ..
Denial may be a part of it. Or they may believe what they're read in the news including from doctors that are addicted to COVID hysteria. They may not be aware that COVID-19 is statistically of negligible risk to healthy people under age 50; that for those people it feels no different than a cold or flu the overwhelming majority of the time. They may believe that if they don't feel like they're dying from a world ending plague, that it can't be COVID-19. Because that's what they've been told. They've been told COVID-19 is worse than heart disease, cancer, car accidents, stroke and kidney failure. They've been told if you're under 50 and healthy, you get it and the norm is to collapse and die suffocating a hellish death and soon your whole neighborhood is collapsing in the hallways of the local hospital that has run out of ventilators, beds, doctors and nurses, because they're all dying, too. They may literally not know that for the under 50 and healthy crowd you're talking about, the overwhelming majority of the time the opposite is true.

Can you blame them for doubting you when you tell them their "flu" is COVID, after they've read 4 million times "COVID IS NOT JUST THE FLU BRO!" and witnessed countless people shamed and called idiots for saying what you just told them?
 
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World: "COVID'S NOT THE FLU, BRO!"

Patient: "I feel like I have the flu, doc"

Doctor: "You have COVID."

Patient: "That's not possible. COVID's not the flu, bro."
 
World: "COVID'S NOT THE FLU, BRO!"

Patient: "I feel like I have the flu, doc"

Doctor: "You have COVID."

Patient: "That's not possible. COVID's not the flu, bro."

I regularly tell patients that they only have a 99.8% chance of surviving. Many of them are shocked to hear it's not a death sentence. I've had young people come in crying and hysterical because they think they have this virus. Thanks media.
 
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There's multiple EM docs at my academic shop who've been on TV and continue to advocate for complete lockdowns for any surge in cases regardless of the potential consequences. I think its basically a form of denial where they refuse to accept that its spread beyond containment which means that we can still eliminate it with a complete lockdown that stops all virus transmission. This is obviously not possible given the current situation but that seems to be their reasoning when asked to defend their position. Regardless we're dealing with a highly contagious respiratory virus that rapidly spreads among people with mild flu symptoms. As a result I don't personally think its very realistic to expect that people will self isolate at home for a couple weeks if they develop a little cough or runny nose which might be from the virus.
So much yes here. People being people.
 
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