What do you all think of DO's?

[USArmyDoc]

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Sorry to disappoint you, but doc's don't "just pass". Students in allopathic sch's are ranked all their years in med sch (rare exception is UMich)

I really don't think you are disappointing anyone. I understood what that poster was saying.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

If it's "who is a better doctor" we're trying to figure out, I think the best option is to standardize what makes a good doctor. Hey, it works for the SAT and MCAT 😀 !

So, every doctor's id badge now has to include:

Patient happiness index
Lawsuit rate
Number of mistakes on record
Numbers of times performing procedure X, Y, Z...
Counter of number of hours awake and hours worked per week
etc.
Overall grade in big red letters.

Hehe 🙂

I know this post was meant to be funny, but... seriously the idea behind this is so simple and would be so beneficial to patients. I think it's a great idea! Think about it... people are putting their lives in a professionals hands... paying them a LOT of money, and they have no idea if this person has a good track record, or if they are a screw-up from the bottom of their class. It scares me to think some quack like Dr. Jayant Patel could be taking care of me (This guy worked in my hometown for a while) and I would have no idea that he's a terrible doctor.

Maybe you and I can come up with some sort of a standardized system to make this a reality.. 🙂

 

[trudub]

Here is a serious question for all the DO students reading/posting to this thread. Do you really think we need DO programs? Do you think there are enough students that pursue DO programs for the DO philosophy that they should be maintained? Or, should the number of MD positions available be expanded to equal the number of DO positions that would be lost by absolving the DO programs? Maybe even the DO programs could be converted into MD programs. I am just curious.

 

[USArmyDoc]

Here is a serious question for all the DO students reading/posting to this thread. Do you really think we need DO programs? Do you think there are enough students that pursue DO programs for the DO philosophy that they should be maintained? Or, should the number of MD positions available be expanded to equal the number of DO positions that would be lost by absolving the DO programs? Maybe even the DO programs could be converted into MD programs. I am just curious.

I think this is a good question, but I also feel the system is fine as it is. I like the way the Osteopathic schools teach medicine. From what I have heard (I am an entering 1st year), they drill the Osteopathic philosophy and way of practice into you. Granted, this does not guarrantee a DO student will eventually practice this way, but I personally like it.

 

[AngryBaby]

I think this is a good question, but I also feel the system is fine as it is. I like the way the Osteopathic schools teach medicine. From what I have heard (I am an entering 1st year), they drill the Osteopathic philosophy and way of practice into you. Granted, this does not guarrantee a DO student will eventually practice this way, but I personally like it.

I've seen a few FP DO's in clinic and I have yet to see any noticable difference between how they handle their patients vs. their allopathic counterparts. The only difference I've seen so far was a suggestion to try the affiliated OMM clinic for her chronic back pain...and that only happened once. Haven't seen any OMM in practice by these FP's. I'm still waiting to observe this huge branch in philosophies.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

You seem to be basing your statement on the assumption that patients /have/ a choice in their physician. When non-MDs are given the same rights as MDs, underfunded clinics (ex. student health clinics) stock their physicians with non-MDs, taking the choice away from the patient.

Disclaimer: That said. I respect ODs as full fledged physicians and recognize that there is some debate over which came first osteopathic doctors or allopathic and some debate over which is better.

You obviously don't respect them too much because you never bothered to learn their correct title. They're DOs, not ODs -- ODs are opticians. I also don't think DOs are more likely to work in presumably lower quality environments like student health clinics than MDs. From my experience, student health clinics are full of PAs and NPs. The few doctors I saw at student health clinics were all MDs.

 

[MikeyLu2010]

Sorry. I have to put my 2 cents in here... mainly because I hate it when people spout off a bunch of crap with no facts to back it up (as you like to call it "conjecture"). Especially when they're totally wrong, and the statistics to show that were posted before on this board.

First of all, DO's MCAT scores have been on the decline since 1999.
Also, MD's don't reject people and keep their class size low to hold prestige of low admissions... that's ridiculous. When a school with 100 spots has 5000 applicants, they want to take the people who will succeed in medical school and make more than competent doctors. They've got their pick essentially. So, obviously someone with a 24MCAT has almost no chance at getting into their program if 500 people with 30+ scores and better GPA's also applied. This is just really funny to me... MD programs purposely reject people to seem prestigious... where do you get crap like that? MD programs are expanding their class sizes, just slowly. It takes time to expand class size while keeping the QUALITY of education the same... you can't do 30% in one year, that's ludicrous.

I'd rather see facts than conjecture on a topic like this... You seem rather biased towards DO while being completely uninformed... Are you a DO student?

Just a reminder. I believe DO's can be great docs too. I don't think MD docs or the MD philosophy are better than DO's in an any type of innate sense. Not at all. I just think the applicants selected to become MD's are far superior academically. That is all I'm saying.

Conject on...

The reason why MCAT scores are on the decline..is because of all the new DO schools opening..and thus have low admission standards...to lure students to attend their school...a lot of the state funded DO schools have comparable GPA/MCAT scores as their allo counterpart....and i find it hilarious that you correlate a good gpa/mcat in undergrad to being a good physician....btw thats not to knock on your preference for MD over DO..i could care less about that..My own preference would be a US trained doc vs foreign trained

 

[JohnnyOU]

What do you all think of DO's ?

Personally, I prefer the DONT's

🙂

 

[USArmyDoc]

Sorry. I have to put my 2 cents in here... mainly because I hate it when people spout off a bunch of crap with no facts to back it up (as you like to call it "conjecture"). Especially when they're totally wrong, and the statistics to show that were posted before on this board.

First of all, DO's MCAT scores have been on the decline since 1999.
Also, MD's don't reject people and keep their class size low to hold prestige of low admissions... that's ridiculous. When a school with 100 spots has 5000 applicants, they want to take the people who will succeed in medical school and make more than competent doctors. They've got their pick essentially. So, obviously someone with a 24MCAT has almost no chance at getting into their program if 500 people with 30+ scores and better GPA's also applied. This is just really funny to me... MD programs purposely reject people to seem prestigious... where do you get crap like that? MD programs are expanding their class sizes, just slowly. It takes time to expand class size while keeping the QUALITY of education the same... you can't do 30% in one year, that's ludicrous.

I'd rather see facts than conjecture on a topic like this... You seem rather biased towards DO while being completely uninformed... Are you a DO student?

Just a reminder. I believe DO's can be great docs too. I don't think MD docs or the MD philosophy are better than DO's in an any type of innate sense. Not at all. I just think the applicants selected to become MD's are far superior academically. That is all I'm saying.

Conject on...

I am an incoming DO student and I agree with Dr. Weebs. The fact is that the majority of MD students have shown to be superior academically thus far.

However, that doesn't mean much to me and a good amount of DO students because we were in the running for both MD and DO spots. So the bottom line is if we are smart enough to interview and be accepted at both MD and DO schools I don't care whether people perceive me to be academically superior based on pure assumptions. Granted, there are people in DO schools who did not stand a chance at MD schools but generalization is never good. I hate this turn this into a flame war, but maybe its the MD's who are the ones who always have to explain how they are superior?? 😕 Just a thought......

 

[Doctor Bagel]

The reason why MCAT scores are on the decline..is because of all the new DO schools opening..and thus have low admission standards...to lure students to attend their school...a lot of the state funded DO schools have comparable GPA/MCAT scores as their allo counterpart....and i find it hilarious that you correlate a good gpa/mcat in undergrad to being a good physician....btw thats not to knock on your preference for MD over DO..i could care less about that..My own preference would be a US trained doc vs foreign trained

That's a good point. From my understanding, gpa/mcats are not on the decline at already existing, established osteopathic schools. If anything, those schools are probably getting more competitive. I hate to say it, but there are some osteopathic schools that seem to accept almost everyone, but there are also lots of osteopathic schools that are selective.

Also, I think it makes much more sense to judge your doctor's competency by her post-graduate training rather than merely by the name of her medical school.

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

You obviously don't respect them too much because you never bothered to learn their correct title. They're DOs, not ODs -- ODs are opticians. I also don't think DOs are more likely to work in presumably lower quality environments like student health clinics than MDs. From my experience, student health clinics are full of PAs and NPs. The few doctors I saw at student health clinics were all MDs.

I'm being nit-picky here but an OD is an Optometrist, NOT an optician (person who grinds lenses).

I find these DO/MD discussions rather amusing. I've been on SDN for a VERY long time. Silent reader since 1998 and active poster since 2000. Every year, a new wave of people join SDN who think their question has never been asked before on this site. They create a new thread, ask a question similar to the one in this thread, and a ridiculous flame war soon ensues. Moral of the story: PLEASE DO A SEARCH BEFORE POSTING!

To the person who said he/she will refuse care from a DO (unless absolutely necessary) b/c "overall" their undergrad GPA's and/or MCAT's are lower than the average MD. Congratulations my friend, your comment goes in my book of "Most idiotic comments in the history of SDN." As a future physician, I really hope you get rid of this type of elitist thinking. It makes you sound ignorant and stupid. Yes, even if you have high BCPM and a 30 on the MCAT.

Alright, I'm out...

 

[Onetime1234]

how do you search these boards?

 

[DrMom]

click on search near the top of the page. There also is an advanced search option.

Do be aware, though, that right now we're having some intermittent problems so just be patient if the search isn't working.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I'm being nit-picky here but an OD is an Optometrist, NOT an optician (person who grinds lenses).

I find these DO/MD discussions rather amusing. I've been on SDN for a VERY long time. Silent reader since 1998 and active poster since 2000. Every year, a new wave of people join SDN who think their question has never been asked before on this site. They create a new thread, ask a question similar to the one in this thread, and a ridiculous flame war soon ensues. Moral of the story: PLEASE DO A SEARCH BEFORE POSTING!

To the person who said he/she will refuse care from a DO (unless absolutely necessary) b/c "overall" their undergrad GPA's and/or MCAT's are lower than the average MD. Congratulations my friend, your comment goes in my book of "Most idiotic comments in the history of SDN." As a future physician, I really hope you get rid of this type of elitist thinking. It makes you sound ignorant and stupid. Yes, even if you have high BCPM and a 30 on the MCAT.

Alright, I'm out...

I never said I would "refuse" care from a DO.I just simply said if I had a choice between an MD and a DO, I'd pick the MD.

MCAT and GPA aren't the focus here. It's why the person got those numbers. Judging by the data, my chance of getting someone really sharp is stacked in favor for the MD's. THATS WHAT THE MCAT TESTS! The people at AMCAS didn't design an 8hr nightmare for pre-meds just so they could there and snicker while we stress out. It's designed to test someone's ABILITY to recall information, take in new information, mentally organize a lot of information at once, and then USE IT ALL. So, it is VERY safe to assume that a 5 POINT DIFFERENTIAL (that's almost TWO FULL standard deviations) MEANS something. Pretty much anyone in all of my undergrad science classes could get a 23 on the MCAT. So... I will go on being an idiot and have a preference for MD care. If my only choice was a DO I wouldn't refuse care. Even if I did have the option for MD care, but I knew the DO's reputation and it was a good one, I would choose the DO. However, in a coin flip where I know nothing but their degrees, I'll take my chances with the MD. The odds are just stacked in my favor that way, plain and simple.


I believe you're the one who's being ignorant either in your quest to be politically correct, or to defend DO's because you're a DO student. You cannot ignore what grades and standardized test scores measure. I'm sorry that DO applicants score 5 points less... it's not my fault, but it's reality. Get over it.

 

[saradoor]

Here is a serious question for all the DO students reading/posting to this thread. Do you really think we need DO programs? Do you think there are enough students that pursue DO programs for the DO philosophy that they should be maintained? Or, should the number of MD positions available be expanded to equal the number of DO positions that would be lost by absolving the DO programs? Maybe even the DO programs could be converted into MD programs. I am just curious.

Funny that you asked, AMA did convert all California ODs ( yes OD == DO see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OD ) in the 1960s. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy

Here is excrpt from the site:
"In the 1960s in California, the American Medical Association (AMA) spent nearly $8 million to end the practice of osteopathy in the state. After passing Proposition 22 which was backed by the AMA, D.O.s were granted the M.D. degree in exchange for paying $65 and attending a short seminar. The College of Osteopathic Physicians and Surgeons became the University of California, Irvine, College of Medicine. However, the decision proved quite controversial. In 1974, primarily due to the efforts of Viola M. Frymann, D.O., FAAO, the California Supreme Court ruled that licensing of D.O.s in that state must be resumed."

 

[DrMom]

Funny that you asked, AMA did convert all California ODs ( yes OD == DO see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OD )

Well, the wikipedia article is wrong on that one because nobody uses OD for DO, and I've never even seen any historical reference to anything other than DO. OD is optometry, no osteopathic medicine.

 

[saradoor]

In most other countries, an OD cannot practice like a MD unless the person is a US licensed physician.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy :
"In other parts of the world, especially the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand, D.O.'s have a narrower scope of practice limited to manual therapy."

Even in the US, the merit of manipulative medicine is controversial. Another excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy :
"The scientific merit of manipulative medicine continues to be controversial. Within the osteopathic medical curriculum in the USA, manipulative treatment is taught as an adjunctive measure to other biomedical interventions for a number of disorders and diseases. The American Osteopathic Association has made an effort in recent years to both support and promote scientific inquiry into the effectiveness of osteopathic manipulation as well as encourage D.O.s to consistently offer manipulative treatments to their patients. However, the number of D.O.s who report consistently prescribing and performing manipulative treatment has been falling steadily. The reasons for this are poorly understood, but are believed to be related to changes in the general financing and delivery of health care, fewer D.O.s training in exclusively osteopathic post-graduate residency (medicine) training programs, and a lack of perceived relevance to a number of specialties and sub-specialties that D.O.'s pursue."

 

[DrMom]

In most other countries, an OD cannot practice like a MD unless the person is a US licensed physician.

That is simply because osteopathic training in other countries only includes manipulation so they aren't physicians. So, DOs trained in the US are physicians and DOs trained in other countries only do manipulation.

 

[saradoor]

Well, the wikipedia article is wrong on that one because nobody uses OD for DO, and I've never even seen any historical reference to anything other than DO. OD is optometry, no osteopathic medicine.

Yes, you are correct. Many other reputable sites are wrong on this as well. For example,

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...d-overdose-of-a-drug&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc11a

"* Doctor of Osteopathy (O.D., but also D.O.)"

 

[DrMom]

Yes, you are correct. Many other reputable sites are wrong on this as well. For example,

http://www.answers.com/main/ntquery...d-overdose-of-a-drug&curtab=2222_1&sbid=lc11a

"* Doctor of Osteopathy (O.D., but also D.O.)"

Well, that answers.com page is clearly quoting the same wikipedia entry you cited earlier so I hardly consider that as a separate reputable source.

 

[erasable]

The reason why MCAT scores are on the decline..is because of all the new DO schools opening..and thus have low admission standards...to lure students to attend their school...a lot of the state funded DO schools have comparable GPA/MCAT scores as their allo counterpart....and i find it hilarious that you correlate a good gpa/mcat in undergrad to being a good physician....btw thats not to knock on your preference for MD over DO..i could care less about that..My own preference would be a US trained doc vs foreign trained

I'm sure the foreign trained docs have their own preferences of docs, both foreign and US trained, over say DNPs. And DNPs when they graduate may prefer their own lot over NPs, who in turn prefer their own over RNs. Arg...why do we make health care so complicated? I don't think other countries have the same problems we do.

 

[tkim]

In most other countries, an OD cannot practice like a MD unless the person is a US licensed physician.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy :
"In other parts of the world, especially the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand, D.O.'s have a narrower scope of practice limited to manual therapy."

Even in the US, the merit of manipulative medicine is controversial. Another excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy :
"The scientific merit of manipulative medicine continues to be controversial. Within the osteopathic medical curriculum in the USA, manipulative treatment is taught as an adjunctive measure to other biomedical interventions for a number of disorders and diseases. The American Osteopathic Association has made an effort in recent years to both support and promote scientific inquiry into the effectiveness of osteopathic manipulation as well as encourage D.O.s to consistently offer manipulative treatments to their patients. However, the number of D.O.s who report consistently prescribing and performing manipulative treatment has been falling steadily. The reasons for this are poorly understood, but are believed to be related to changes in the general financing and delivery of health care, fewer D.O.s training in exclusively osteopathic post-graduate residency (medicine) training programs, and a lack of perceived relevance to a number of specialties and sub-specialties that D.O.'s pursue."

I am unclear as to why you think that Wikipedia is evidence of proof of any kind:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:General_disclaimer

WIKIPEDIA MAKES NO GUARANTEE OF VALIDITY

Wikipedia is an online open-content collaborative encyclopedia, that is, a voluntary association of individuals and groups who are developing a common resource of human knowledge. The structure of the project allows anyone with an Internet connection and World Wide Web browser to alter its content. Please be advised that nothing found here has necessarily been reviewed by professionals with the expertise required to provide you with complete, accurate or reliable information.

That is not to say that you will not find valuable and accurate information in Wikipedia; much of the time you will. However, Wikipedia cannot guarantee the validity of the information found here. The content of any given article may recently have been changed, vandalized or altered by someone whose opinion does not correspond with the state of knowledge in the relevant fields.

No formal peer review

We are working on ways to select and highlight reliable versions of articles. Our active community of editors uses tools such as the Special:Recentchanges and Special:Newpages feeds to monitor new and changing content. However, Wikipedia is not uniformly peer reviewed; while readers may correct errors or engage in casual peer review, they have no legal duty to do so and thus all information read here is without any implied warranty of fitness for any purpose or use whatsoever. Even articles that have been vetted by informal peer review or featured article processes may later have been edited inappropriately, just before you view them.

None of the authors, contributors, sponsors, administrators, sysops, or anyone else connected with Wikipedia in any way whatsoever can be responsible for the appearance of any inaccurate or libelous information or for your use of the information contained in or linked from these web pages.

 

[Junkster]

I heard DO's are morans.

MDs are the smartest people on earth.

kekekeke. I think there's always going to be a division between the two schools of training. But, at the end of the day, we have to work together, whether we like it or not.

I just hope that I not looked down upon by MDs because of my DO track. But, knowing some of the old school MDs in certain places, I'm sure I'll still run into it.

 

[Jack Daniel]

In most other countries, an OD cannot practice like a MD unless the person is a US licensed physician.

Excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy :
"In other parts of the world, especially the United Kingdom, Australia, and New Zealand, D.O.'s have a narrower scope of practice limited to manual therapy."

Even in the US, the merit of manipulative medicine is controversial. Another excerpt from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Osteopathy :
"The scientific merit of manipulative medicine continues to be controversial. Within the osteopathic medical curriculum in the USA, manipulative treatment is taught as an adjunctive measure to other biomedical interventions for a number of disorders and diseases. The American Osteopathic Association has made an effort in recent years to both support and promote scientific inquiry into the effectiveness of osteopathic manipulation as well as encourage D.O.s to consistently offer manipulative treatments to their patients. However, the number of D.O.s who report consistently prescribing and performing manipulative treatment has been falling steadily. The reasons for this are poorly understood, but are believed to be related to changes in the general financing and delivery of health care, fewer D.O.s training in exclusively osteopathic post-graduate residency (medicine) training programs, and a lack of perceived relevance to a number of specialties and sub-specialties that D.O.'s pursue."

While Wikipedia has some value, why are you using it as your main source for what Osteopathy is?

For osteopathic medicine, check out:
http://www.aoa-net.org/index.cfm
http://www.jaoa.org/
http://www.acofp.org/

Or even one of the college websites:
http://www.aacom.org/

By the way, you'll find that none of the websites use the term "O.D." when referring to an osteopathic physician. I don't understand why you continue to do so.

 

[DrMom]

I heard DO's are morans.

morans, eh? 😉

 

[Junkster]

morans, eh? 😉

😀

See my point? I can't even spell ***** and they let me into a DO school.

Man, if I was a patient, I wouldn't see me for help.

 

[saradoor]

...

By the way, you'll find that none of the websites use the term "O.D." when referring to an osteopathic physician. I don't understand why you continue to do so.

DO, OD, MD, DM, I don't really care but folks do use the two abbreviations interchangably (DO and OD) and those of you who care should go after them. Don't shoot the messenger 🙂

See another one here: http://www.breathing.com/faq-all2.htm

"Hello,
Rather a general question i know, but is it possible to develop poor breathing patterns due to lack of sleep. For the past three years i have suffered severe sleeping problems ie: difficulty getting to sleep, difficulty staying asleep which has left me drained and physically fatigued to the point where i now suffer laboured breathing, tight neck and shoulder muscles and a tight diaphragm which has to be manipulated by a Osteopath regularly. Although my sleeping patterns are gradually getting better i am still left with the physical pains of poor sleep. Does this all sound familiar, and what can i do to help break this cycle of bad sleep leading to bad breathing and visa versa? i will be forever in your debt if you can help.
Many Thanks,
Maria

From Mike:

I strongly suspect that for the most part, bad breathing causes bad sleep. The reverse can be so due to lack of sleep and the inability for energy recovery but the odds are probably by (my arbitrary estimate) 1000 to 1 that bad breathing causes bad sleep. Keep going to the osteopath, get the manual and take it to that doctor. It will serve BOTH of you quite well. The OD would be a good choice as a medical doctor but probably can not do all of what you need for your breathing. You might want to rule out sleep apnea but I believe that apnea is caused by faulty breathing and can also be helped by herbs and liver cleanses.. Consult with a Naturopathic Doctor about this as well.
"

And page 21 of this Group Medical, Rx and Vision Plan for the LA. Firemen's Relief Association: http://www.lafra.org/images/PDFonline.pdf

"Physician Services - ... (a) Doctor of Medicine - MD, (b) Doctor of Osteopathy - OD, ..."

 

[DrMom]

DO, OD, MD, DM, I don't really care but folks do use the two abbreviations interchangably (DO and OD) and those of you who care should go after them. Don't shoot the messenger 🙂
"

People being mistaken or making typos is very, very different from saying that the two abbreviations are interchangeable, which was your earlier statement.

 

[saradoor]

People being mistaken or making typos is very, very different from saying that the two abbreviations are interchangeable, which was your earlier statement.

Sorry but I did not make that claim by myself. I am a commoner and have not gone thru medical school training but I don't see how I had made a claim when all I did was citing what I believe to be reputable sources. If you all think those sites cheapen your degrees, please go after them and don't shoot the messenger 🙂

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I am an incoming DO student and I agree with Dr. Weebs. The fact is that the majority of MD students have shown to be superior academically thus far.

However, that doesn't mean much to me and a good amount of DO students because we were in the running for both MD and DO spots. So the bottom line is if we are smart enough to interview and be accepted at both MD and DO schools I don't care whether people perceive me to be academically superior based on pure assumptions. Granted, there are people in DO schools who did not stand a chance at MD schools but generalization is never good. I hate this turn this into a flame war, but maybe its the MD's who are the ones who always have to explain how they are superior?? 😕 Just a thought......

It's not a generalization. It's reality. It's hard statistical data. Data has no opinion. Data doesn't think, it doesn't have emotion, it just shows the facts. The average MCAT score for DO students is around 24. Show me any MD program where that's even remotely competitive. It's not the exception that DO students wouldn't stand a chance at getting into MD programs, it's the majority. If you were accepted to an MD program and chose DO for the philosophy or the location, then you are an exception. PC.. PC.. PC... anecdotal evidence... conjecture... bla bla bla.

Again, I will re-iterate. I'm know DO students make competent docs, some of them great docs. I do not look down upon them. If I met a DO student, I would be happy to meet another MEDICAL student because that's what we both are at the core. If I had to be taken care of by a DO that would be fine. However, if I had my choice, knowing nothing but the degrees, I would choose an MD. If that makes me an ignorant generalizer... fine. But, it is never anything personal, and there is very sound reasoning behind my choice. It is nothing inherently against DO's!!! If DO's were the ones who were gettin' 33 MCATs, acing undergrad, getting above average USMLE scores, and the MD's were getting in with average scores and grades, then I'd want the DO's to be taking care of my life when I'm in peril. When it comes to my life, my health, my well-being... give me the smartest guy I can get who isn't rude. It's pretty basic.

Lastly, I do not really understand this thread or its reactions.

A DO student asked "What do MD's think of DO's?", and then people can't stand hearing an honest, statistically backed, scientifically sound (the correlation between MCAT and Board scores) answer.

This is not a flame war. This is not about MD's trying to prove their superiority. A DO student brought this up, and they got what they asked for.

Why would a DO ask that question in the first place? Perhaps, because it is widely known that there is a large dyscrepency in academic performance prior to medical school between MD's and DO's. And I don't want to hear the line about.. "Well it's just the MCAT and GPA". The reason the MCAT is such an important grader of applicants because it has a very good correlation with board scores. So, it's safe to say that when you take a large sample of people who got 24's on their MCAT, and a large sample of people who got 30's, had them take the exact same boards (I make the point of same board because DO's can take a different board exam too)... the group who got 30's would score about the same amount above on the boards. At what point do people have to be held ACCOUNTABLE for their intellectual capabilities as a professional? Not to mention a professional being paid a LOT of money to take care of people's LIVES. Apparently never, because according to some people grades and test scores mean nothing. Why even have standardized tests at all? Everyone can be a winner!!! Why do you think competitive residency's take people with higher board scores? Maybe because they have proven themselves to be really sharp and competent... What a concept? We need some way to standardize how capable professionals are... Unfortunately, the current method is using the MCAT and USMLE. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[DrMom]

Sorry but I did not make that claim by myself.

but you did

yes OD == DO

I am a commoner and have not gone thru medical school training but I don't see how I had made a claim when all I did was citing what I believe to be reputable sources. If you all think those sites cheapen your degrees, please go after them and don't shoot the messenger 🙂

I was just trying to give you correct information and you continued on with your assertion anyways. You need to be aware of what your sources are so that you know which sites are reliable vs somewhat reliable vs not reliable. Nobody said or suggesting anything about this cheapening our degrees, so I'm not sure where you're getting that idea from.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

The reason why MCAT scores are on the decline..is because of all the new DO schools opening..and thus have low admission standards...to lure students to attend their school...a lot of the state funded DO schools have comparable GPA/MCAT scores as their allo counterpart....and i find it hilarious that you correlate a good gpa/mcat in undergrad to being a good physician....btw thats not to knock on your preference for MD over DO..i could care less about that..My own preference would be a US trained doc vs foreign trained

It's pretty simple. If they were much less competent right before they entered medical school, why shouldn't I assume they're less competent after medical school? MCAT scores correlate with board scores very well. Board scores measure clinical competency. Otherwise the boards wouldn't exist. It's very very simple. It does not mean I think DO's are bad doctors. I would just feel safer choosing an MD if I had the option. Although, if a DO had a particularly good reputation, I might choose them over a generic MD. It's not blatant discrimination. It's just logic. It's nothing personal.

 

[saradoor]

but you did
...

Please be fair with this commoner, will you 🙂
Here is an excerpt of what I said:
"... ( yes OD == DO see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OD ) ..."
not
yes OD == DO
and not
OD == DO
and certainly not
D == D

Please, you don't have to shoot the messenger 🙂

 

[DrMom]

Board scores measure clinical competency. Otherwise the boards wouldn't exist.

Board scores measure how well you retain and use information, but do not assess your clinical competency. Even the new step 2 clinical exams are of questionable value in determining clinical competency.

If board scores are so good at assessing clinical competency, then why do residency directors look at LORs and MS3 grades?

 

[DrMom]

Please be fair with this commoner, will you 🙂
Here is an excerpt of what I said:
"... ( yes OD == DO see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OD ) ..."
not
yes OD == DO
and not
OD == DO
and certainly not
D == D

Please, you don't have to shoot the messenger 🙂

Okay, you made a statement and gave a link to back up your statement, but you still made the statement.

I'm not attacking you, I was just trying to give you correct information so you wouldn't look silly continuing to use OD instead of DO. I think we can let this go now.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Sorry but I did not make that claim by myself. I am a commoner and have not gone thru medical school training but I don't see how I had made a claim when all I did was citing what I believe to be reputable sources. If you all think those sites cheapen your degrees, please go after them and don't shoot the messenger 🙂

You may think you have reputable sources--but I have given you links to the very associations and institutions that govern/grant the profession/degree. How can you get more reputable than that? Why are you choosing Wikipedia and other private websites over the A.O.A.?

 

[saradoor]

You may think you have reputable sources--but I have given you links to the very associations and institutions that govern/grant the profession/degree. How can you get more reputable than that? Why are you choosing Wikipedia and other private websites over the A.O.A.?

Objectivity ( for a commoner like me 🙂 )

 

[Dr. Weebs]

Board scores measure how well you retain and use information, but do not assess your clinical competency. Even the new step 2 clinical exams are of questionable value in determining clinical competency.

If board scores are so good at assessing clinical competency, then why do residency directors look at LORs and MS3 grades?

Good point. However, it is fairly safe to assume that if you sample ALL DO and MD students, their MS3 grades are going to end up being a wash (unless one group has grade inflation). Their LOR's are going to end up being a wash. The difference maker is going to be board scores. Your point is noted, though.

 

[JohnnyOU]

It's pretty simple. If they were much less competent right before they entered medical school, why shouldn't I assume they're less competent after medical school? MCAT scores correlate with board scores very well. Board scores measure clinical competency. Otherwise the boards wouldn't exist. It's very very simple. It does not mean I think DO's are bad doctors. I would just feel safer choosing an MD if I had the option. Although, if a DO had a particularly good reputation, I might choose them over a generic MD. It's not blatant discrimination. It's just logic. It's nothing personal.

No way dude. You are not allowed to have preferences!!!!!!! If you prefer MD's over DO's then you're a doctoral bigot!

You also can't prefer asian women over hispanic ones....or muscular men over fat ones. And don't get me started on the ford vs chevy bigotry!

😉

 

[Jack Daniel]

It's pretty simple. If they were much less competent right before they entered medical school, why shouldn't I assume they're less competent after medical school? MCAT scores correlate with board scores very well. Board scores measure clinical competency. Otherwise the boards wouldn't exist. It's very very simple. It does not mean I think DO's are bad doctors. I would just feel safer choosing an MD if I had the option. Although, if a DO had a particularly good reputation, I might choose them over a generic MD. It's not blatant discrimination. It's just logic. It's nothing personal.

You could also use the "institutional" approach. Good institutions attract good people. So MDs or DOs at a good hospital should be functionally equal--as both would have had to jump through the same hoops (competition, publishing) to get a position.

This would be in comparison to choosing a private practitioner: since any physician could set up a private office, a larger difference may exist in training between a given DO or MD.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

You could also use the "institutional" approach. Good institutions attract good people. So MDs or DOs at a good hospital should be functionally equal--as both would have had to jump through the same hoops (competition, publishing) to get a position.

This would be in comparison to choosing a private practitioner: since any physician could set up a private office, a larger difference may exist in training between a given DO or MD.

That's a really good point, actually. You're right on. If I was at the hospital I work at, which I would trust with my life... and they assigned me a DO, heck yea I would trust them. Very good point, Boston 🙂

 

[gerido]

You obviously don't respect them too much because you never bothered to learn their correct title. They're DOs, not ODs -- ODs are opticians. I also don't think DOs are more likely to work in presumably lower quality environments like student health clinics than MDs. From my experience, student health clinics are full of PAs and NPs. The few doctors I saw at student health clinics were all MDs.

Way to bash on someone's ignorance with your own ignorance. ODs are Doctor of Optometry - dumb b*tch.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Way to bash on someone's ignorance with your own ignorance. ODs are Doctor of Optometry - dumb b*tch.

Whatever. 🙄 I am sorry to anybody who I legitimately offended by screwing up optician and optometrist.

 

[Jack Daniel]

That's a really good point, actually. You're right on. If I was at the hospital I work at, which I would trust with my life... and they assigned me a DO, heck yea I would trust them. Very good point, Boston 🙂

Why, thank you, Dr. Weebs.

 

[gerido]

The reason why MCAT scores are on the decline..is because of all the new DO schools opening..and thus have low admission standards...to lure students to attend their school...a lot of the state funded DO schools have comparable GPA/MCAT scores as their allo counterpart....and i find it hilarious that you correlate a good gpa/mcat in undergrad to being a good physician....btw thats not to knock on your preference for MD over DO..i could care less about that..My own preference would be a US trained doc vs foreign trained

what's the difference between an MD vs. DO vs. Foreign trained MD? why would you prefer DO over foreign trained? is it quality of education? is it standard of admission? is it that foreign trained MDs are some sort of reject? 🙄

It's too bad that a DO school would admit someone who outright illegally scam other poor student with prep materials that they themselve did not produce - that other students post to help each other out.

 

[tkim]

Good point. However, it is fairly safe to assume that if you sample ALL DO and MD students, their MS3 grades are going to end up being a wash (unless one group has grade inflation). Their LOR's are going to end up being a wash. The difference maker is going to be board scores. Your point is noted, though.

I notice from your postings that you are entering UVa this year. Congrats!

I understand that logically one could choose their physician by board scores. Intuitively it makes sense.

After your MS3 year, which will be three years from now, I'm likely betting that you will discard the notion of board scores in favor of where the person trained in residency - and even this with a grain of salt.

Where you graduated from med school becomes meaningless after you enter residency. Your post-graduate training determines how good a doc you will be in many instances simply because of clinical exposure to pathology, didactic training and number of procedures performed.

It's post-graduate training - not board scores, that determines your skill as a physician. Mostly.

Even the most skilled doc from the House of God could be a total ass. Who wants that?

Come back in three years and I'll bet you'll agree.

 

[JohnnyOU]

Whatever. 🙄 I am sorry to anybody who I legitimately offended by screwing up optician and optometrist.

Sheeesh....always startin trouble aren't ya exlawgrrl

🙄

 

[Doctor Bagel]

Sheeesh....always startin trouble aren't ya exlawgrrl

🙄

I know it. I think a bunch of optometrists are going to torch my house now. 🙂

 

[DOCTORSAIB]

I notice from your postings that you are entering UVa this year. Congrats!

I understand that logically one could choose their physician by board scores. Intuitively it makes sense.

After your MS3 year, which will be three years from now, I'm likely betting that you will discard the notion of board scores in favor of where the person trained in residency - and even this with a grain of salt.

Where you graduated from med school becomes meaningless after you enter residency. Your post-graduate training determines how good a doc you will be in many instances simply because of clinical exposure to pathology, didactic training and number of procedures performed.

It's post-graduate training - not board scores, that determines your skill as a physician. Mostly.

Even the most skilled doc from the House of God could be a total ass. Who wants that?

Come back in three years and I'll bet you'll agree.

Thank you for saying that. I was just about to post something along the same lines.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I notice from your postings that you are entering UVa this year. Congrats!

I understand that logically one could choose their physician by board scores. Intuitively it makes sense.

After your MS3 year, which will be three years from now, I'm likely betting that you will discard the notion of board scores in favor of where the person trained in residency - and even this with a grain of salt.

Where you graduated from med school becomes meaningless after you enter residency. Your post-graduate training determines how good a doc you will be in many instances simply because of clinical exposure to pathology, didactic training and number of procedures performed.

It's post-graduate training - not board scores, that determines your skill as a physician. Mostly.

Even the most skilled doc from the House of God could be a total ass. Who wants that?

Come back in three years and I'll bet you'll agree.

This is another good point. Except... don't DO's have their own slots for a lot of primary care DO residencies? If that is true (which I am only assuming it is... please correct me if I am wrong here), then how can you differentiate between the residencies of an MD and a DO? They're inherently different. The DO residency pool is drawing only from DO's... so... we're back to square one again. Do you see my point? I don't know if I'm stating this very well.

For example: I know it's easy to compare, say, Brigham and Women's Internal Medicine Residency with, some tiny community hospital in the middle of nowhere that fails to fill every single year. You could also compare the DO residency at a prestigious institution with one that is widely known as below average. But, how do you compare the average DO residency with the average MD residency? You have to be able to have some sort of standardized measure. Thus enter board scores.

That's my opinion... I'm open to discussion though, as I am, as you pointed out, inexperienced and merely entering medical school. I appreciate your input.