What do you all think of DO's?

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I will pick the doc who got better grades and test scores throughout his life. Based on statistical averages, that heavily favors the MD, thus I'd pick the MD.

I don't think that I would pick based on grades or test scores because I'm more concerned with clinical performance. For instance, if I ever need a lawyer, I'm not going to pick the one who has the best bar exam grade. I'm going to pick the one who usually keeps his/her clients out of jail. I could care less what s/he did in school. I'm looking for "real world" statistics instead of test grades. Unfortunately, there is no real way to quantify that.

 

[jason3278]

I'm jealous of you. You're going to have some great material when you write your essay/go to an interview...What with your profound experience of having that giant stick surgically removed from your ass.

Yep. Thanks for the advanced warning.

That's all you could come up with to post in this thread? Scratch yourself off the list too.

/Ignore.

 

[chanx314]

Listen to yourselves, "Those people?" You think that DO's are so different from me and you? They came to this country just like everybody else, in search of a dream. You're a rabid anti-osteopathite! Oh, it starts with a few jokes and some slurs, "Hey, osty!" Next thing you know you're saying they should have their own schools.

For those pop-culture challenged, I just referenced a Seinfeld joke about dentists, and anti-dentites to bring some humor to forum.

Why would a DO ask that question in the first place? Perhaps, because it is widely known that there is a large dyscrepency in academic performance prior to medical school between MD's and DO's. And I don't want to hear the line about.. "Well it's just the MCAT and GPA". The reason the MCAT is such an important grader of applicants because it has a very good correlation with board scores. So, it's safe to say that when you take a large sample of people who got 24's on their MCAT, and a large sample of people who got 30's, had them take the exact same boards (I make the point of same board because DO's can take a different board exam too)... the group who got 30's would score about the same amount above on the boards. At what point do people have to be held ACCOUNTABLE for their intellectual capabilities as a professional? Not to mention a professional being paid a LOT of money to take care of people's LIVES. Apparently never, because according to some people grades and test scores mean nothing. Why even have standardized tests at all? Everyone can be a winner!!! Why do you think competitive residency's take people with higher board scores? Maybe because they have proven themselves to be really sharp and competent... What a concept? We need some way to standardize how capable professionals are... Unfortunately, the current method is using the MCAT and USMLE. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I don't think that I would pick based on grades or test scores because I'm more concerned with clinical performance. For instance, if I ever need a lawyer, I'm not going to pick the one who has the best bar exam grade. I'm going to pick the one who usually keeps his/her clients out of jail. I could care less what s/he did in school. I'm looking for "real world" statistics instead of test grades. Unfortunately, there is no real way to quantify that.

Exactly my point. Obviously some people aren't actually reading everything I say. They hear what they want to hear from it. Like I said.. if I had NO OTHER INFORMATION except the doctor's degree, I'd pick an MD. Otherwise, REAL WORLD stuff, like word of mouf reputation, institutional backing, number of times doing procedure, etc. etc. etc.

The OP should be ashamed of starting this thread. I'm glad they're pissed. What did they expect to get out of this anyways? Personally I think this thread should be closed. It's not intelligent conversation anymore.

 

[exmike]

Exactly my point. Obviously some people aren't actually reading everything I say. They hear what they want to hear from it. Like I said.. if I had NO OTHER INFORMATION except the doctor's degree, I'd pick an MD. Otherwise, REAL WORLD stuff, like word of mouf reputation, institutional backing, number of times doing procedure, etc. etc. etc.

The OP should be ashamed of starting this thread. I'm glad they're pissed. What did they expect to get out of this anyways? Personally I think this thread should be closed. It's not intelligent conversation anymore.

heh. he said 'mouf'

 

[ADDchild]

Just keep in mind that DO students don't have to take the USMLE to be licensed physicians (primary care or specialists). They take the COMLEX--and DO students certainly have a high pass rate on that. Now, how comparable is the COMLEX to the USMLE? Well, that's another discussion. But it is possible for DO students to get into some MD residency programs with only COMLEX scores.

I agree no way to compare COMPLEX/USMLE scores/pass rates. My only point was that the DO's that do take the USMLE1, did not have an equivalent pass rate something like 70+% or so(which is not so bad and can be considered high so I miss spoke origionally)--- good job to the DO class taking 2005 for bringing it up from the sixties, as compared to MD's that take it at the same time with a 90+% pass rate. Although passing is different from scoring so I don't know what the average score is for DO's compared to MD's. And that if the person is applying just because they have numbers that are not competative at allopathic schools(although there are allopathic schools with lower numbers than some osteopath schools and not to say that all osteopath schools have lower acceptance requirements) then that person should look deep in their soul and decide why they didn't get the numbers in the first place.

As a group the DO's do not do as well(meaing only pass rate -reported below-,maybe all that do pass have scores of 260+) on USMLE a test that is supposed to test the core medical concepts--(not how competent/compationate/good a practitioner will be). COMPLEX should probably be harder since there is also the osteopath stuff. I don't feel that us allopaths would have a very successfull time with COMPLEX?

Straight from the www.nbme.org site http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm
year 2004-2005*
Examinees from US/Canadian Schools that Grant
Degree # Tested % Passing # Tested % Passing

MD Degree 18,355 91% 18,290 92%
1st Takers 16,703 93% 16,799 94%
Repeaters** 1,652 64% 1,491 65%

DO Degree 1,192 69% 1,331 72%
1st Takers 1,131 70% 1,265 73%
Repeaters** 61 53% 66 53%

So inresponse to Dr.Mom refute that her class had a 100% pass rate and exlawgrrl's stats about TCOM and OSU with their higher than allopathic pass rate---congradulation your class and those schools are doing a great job and are making medicine better for everyone. ---(although I saw someone post somewhere else that they got a perfect 45 on this years MCAT when the AAMC list only a high of 42-no perfect 45's)

However, DO's at other schools are not performing as well on these/this exam, and while I consented that COMPLEX might be harder for allopathics like my self, who would be lost on the osteopathic stuff(is that stuff tested on COMPLEX), I can't believe that the core medical principles would be tested easier on COMPLEX(allowing for a higher pass rate) yet either this is what is happening or there is something else I'm not thinking of(not that unusual)because this is being indicated by the poorer performance by osteopaths on USMLE I, which again I do not think is a measure of how competent or good a Practitioner is, but ony how well that person knows the core medical concepts .

Unless only the poorer(gradewise and I know "DrMom" said that was not the case in her class but thats not proof for the rest of the takers and I'm not refuting your claim so don't take offense) osteopath students are taking it for some imagined gain-Lord knows I wouldn't want to take it again.

Again not poo flinging, I'd only have to clean it of my screen myself anyways, or being arrogant, hell I can't even spell, just responding to this post with some documented facts and even more questions.

I actually considered DO school for the whole person reason I think thats important(well maybe not the chiropracter stuff). The whole person concept was what made me choose the allopathic school I'm in. I feel the've done a great job with this as their mission.Check my post to paraphrasing the "why did you decide to go to where" OP by mouseprinter.

Well ranted off long enough- is there a size limit for responses?

 

[ADDchild]

I have a friend who's at an MD school. He got in with a 24. He was rejected by a DO school. Do you want me to scratch him from the list of physicians you would allow to practice on you?

I have a classmate that had a 20 on his first MCAT bugged the school all year long to let him take it again-finally got a 24and they let him in even though our school has an ave MCAT of 30. Now he is in the top 1/3rd of our allopathic class-3rd year. If I needed a doc I'd be happy to have him- except if I was getting my prostate checked 😀 no thank you, I think i'd rather have that cute brunette for that -I don't even care if she was at the bottom of the class(Grade-wise I meant).

Again proof that a test is not the sole determinant of how good a doctor you will be.

 

[bigfrank]

I agree no way to compare COMPLEX/USMLE scores/pass rates. My only point was that the DO's that do take the USMLE1, did not have an equivalent pass rate something like 70+% or so(which is not so bad and can be considered high so I miss spoke origionally)--- good job to the DO class taking 2005 for bringing it up from the sixties, as compared to MD's that take it at the same time with a 90+% pass rate. Although passing is different from scoring so I don't know what the average score is for DO's compared to MD's. And that if the person is applying just because they have numbers that are not competative at allopathic schools(although there are allopathic schools with lower numbers than some osteopath schools and not to say that all osteopath schools have lower acceptance requirements) then that person should look deep in their soul and decide why they didn't get the numbers in the first place.

As a group the DO's do not do as well(meaing only pass rate -reported below-,maybe all that do pass have scores of 260+) on USMLE a test that is supposed to test the core medical concepts--(not how competent/compationate/good a practitioner will be). COMPLEX should probably be harder since there is also the osteopath stuff. I don't feel that us allopaths would have a very successfull time with COMPLEX?

Straight from the www.nbme.org site http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm
year 2004-2005*
Examinees from US/Canadian Schools that Grant
Degree # Tested % Passing # Tested % Passing

MD Degree 18,355 91% 18,290 92%
1st Takers 16,703 93% 16,799 94%
Repeaters** 1,652 64% 1,491 65%

DO Degree 1,192 69% 1,331 72%
1st Takers 1,131 70% 1,265 73%
Repeaters** 61 53% 66 53%

So inresponse to Dr.Mom refute that her class had a 100% pass rate and exlawgrrl's stats about TCOM and OSU with their higher than allopathic pass rate---congradulation your class and those schools are doing a great job and are making medicine better for everyone. ---(although I saw someone post somewhere else that they got a perfect 45 on this years MCAT when the AAMC list only a high of 42-no perfect 45's)

However, DO's at other schools are not performing as well on these/this exam, and while I consented that COMPLEX might be harder for allopathics like my self, who would be lost on the osteopathic stuff(is that stuff tested on COMPLEX), I can't believe that the core medical principles would be tested easier on COMPLEX(allowing for a higher pass rate) yet either this is what is happening or there is something else I'm not thinking of(not that unusual)because this is being indicated by the poorer performance by osteopaths on USMLE I, which again I do not think is a measure of how competent or good a Practitioner is, but ony how well that person knows the core medical concepts .

Unless only the poorer(gradewise and I know "DrMom" said that was not the case in her class but thats not proof for the rest of the takers and I'm not refuting your claim so don't take offense) osteopath students are taking it for some imagined gain-Lord knows I wouldn't want to take it again.

Again not poo flinging, I'd only have to clean it of my screen myself anyways, or being arrogant, hell I can't even spell, just responding to this post with some documented facts and even more questions.

I actually considered DO school for the whole person reason I think thats important(well maybe not the chiropracter stuff). The whole person concept was what made me choose the allopathic school I'm in. I feel the've done a great job with this as their mission.Check my post to paraphrasing the "why did you decide to go to where" OP by mouseprinter.

Well ranted off long enough- is there a size limit for responses?

Good points.

It has been my experience that, when the thread is leaning towards the allopathic argument, threads get deleted and I've even had my individual posts cunningly deleted by "Dr.Mom"

But, if she feels that the osteopaths are 'winning,' she allows the thread to survive--especially if her osteopathic friends are taking cheap shots.

I haven't (and won't) read this thread, but I thought I might want to share that with you.

🙂

 

[Brickhouse]

Good points.

It has been my experience that, when the thread is leaning towards the allopathic argument, threads get deleted and I've even had my individual posts cunningly deleted by "Dr.Mom"

But, if she feels that the osteopaths are 'winning,' she allows the thread to survive--especially if her osteopathic friends are taking cheap shots.

I haven't (and won't) read this thread, but I thought I might want to share that with you.

🙂

Very brave assertions....

 

[ADDchild]

Good points.

It has been my experience that, when the thread is leaning towards the allopathic argument, threads get deleted and I've even had my individual posts cunningly deleted by "Dr.Mom"

But, if she feels that the osteopaths are 'winning,' she allows the thread to survive--especially if her osteopathic friends are taking cheap shots.

I haven't (and won't) read this thread, but I thought I might want to share that with you.

🙂

And to think all this time i thought this was an allopathic forum That is what it says up at the top
Student Doctor Network Forums > Medical Student Forums > Allopathic > What do you all think of DO's?


Thanks bigfrank

 

[Law2Doc]

I don't think that I would pick based on grades or test scores because I'm more concerned with clinical performance. For instance, if I ever need a lawyer, I'm not going to pick the one who has the best bar exam grade. I'm going to pick the one who usually keeps his/her clients out of jail. I could care less what s/he did in school. I'm looking for "real world" statistics instead of test grades. Unfortunately, there is no real way to quantify that.

Well, law is a pretty bad analogy for this actually. Criminal law is a bad example, because few in that specialty will have had the best bar exams or school grades. And bar exams themselves are a bad example because the goal is to pass, and to do any more is really wasted effort -- no one but the taker ever sees this score -- it is unlike the boards because scores are irrelevant and has no bearing on anything thereafter, the P/F line is all that matters. The smartest person taking that test is the one who just worked hard enough to squeak by, and otherwise had some semblance of a life that summer. But because of the way that lawyers get employed, if you chose a big firm lawyer (with some of the support staff, pedigree and connections that go with that status) over a midsized firm over a solo practitioner, over a legal aid/PD you actually might end up totally making decisions based on grades (law review, etc), as the breakdown tends to parrot this pretty significantly. I'm not sure the same spread of credentials is seen in medicine, where some of the best and brightest go into academia, and it is hard to determine if a doctor did well in school merely by the size of the practice..

 

[ForbiddenComma]

MCAT/Undergrad scores are wholly irrelevant to how one performs as a practicing doctor. I don't even know why people keep bringing it up as a defense of M.D.s.

By the time you matriculate as an M1, in fact, nobody cares one whit about how exactly you got in. You could have been their first choice with a godly MCAT/GPA or you could have been the last miserable dude to have squeaked in from the waitlist. The teachers don't care, the USMLE doesn't care, and above all your future patients don't care.

Yes, the DO students generally have poorer pre-med stats, but the link between "pre-med stats" and "quality as a primary care provider" is so weak that I doubt a scientifically valid study could even prove a correlate. There is so much more to being a PCP than raw scientific knowledge that I can't even begin to count the ways. Which would you rather have as a family doc, one who can fully explicate to you the intracellular pathways of a G-signal protein hormone, or one who can relate to you empathetically as a human being?

So, as for Dr. Weebs' favorite point of "if you know nothing else, you pick the MD," I simply disagree when it comes to a primary care provider, and that's the kind of doc we are seeing 90%+ of the time. If I had to choose blind, I would choose the M.D. every time for pure bench research or even trauma surgery, sure, ok. But it would be at best a coinflip for my FP or internist.

P.S. I say all this as a M.D. MII with a high MCAT.

 

[Jack Daniel]

Good points. It has been my experience that, when the thread is leaning towards the allopathic argument, threads get deleted and I've even had my individual posts cunningly deleted by "Dr.Mom"

But, if she feels that the osteopaths are 'winning,' she allows the thread to survive--especially if her osteopathic friends are taking cheap shots.

I haven't (and won't) read this thread, but I thought I might want to share that with you.

After reading your post, I thought you might be interested in some of these websites:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Conspiracy_theories
http://www.cbc.ca/fifth/conspiracytheories/

 

[AmyO]

Sorry to disappoint you, but doc's don't "just pass". Students in allopathic sch's are ranked all their years in med sch (rare exception is UMich)

Dude, I was joking in regards to some of the rediculous comments made on here.

 

[mshheaddoc]

First off its COMLEX, not COMPLEX. And if you want to find out the actually differences of the test, go into the osteopathic forum or the USMLE/COMLEX forums and see what osteopathic students say about it.

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.

While I admit I've only laughed at the last few pages of the thread, its amusing to see the viewpoints of people in med school while when I talk to medical directors and attendings at various medical programs across the country who tell me a completely different side of the story. Doctors are doctors. There is no MD/DO border out there. The sooner y'all figure that out and decide to step down off the horse the better. Some doctors are better than others but when it comes down to gpa/MCAT/USMLE/COMLEX/class ranking. After residency, no one gives a ****. And that is honestly a fact. Whether you are DO/MD. You know some MD's have to "not" do well on the USMLE and someone has to be at the BOTTOM of your MD class.

Now if you are going to do a field in a DO program that has limited supplied residencies and is competitive, will it be harder for DO's? Of course it will be, especially because the number of DO's is on a smaller scale than MDs, as well as there are some "good old boy" docs that still think DO's aren't worthy. Well are they worthy? It seems that most of the medical organizations and state boarding licensures do, so why don't they or better yet why don't youyou? B/c they don't have a good of a gpa or MCAT score? There is more to a dynamic person than two aspects of who they are and until people can look at the whole person instead of the numbers, most people who have a few bumps in the road might go to DO schools. That's just how it is. Doesn't mean everyone wants to go into surgery/cardiology/ortho/derm/rads. There are all types of people and all types of doctors. Having a closed mind in this world won't get your far, unless you find others like you can join their club and get the secret decoder ring. Then you're pretty much removed from society at that point anyway so the rest of us don't have to deal with you.

Oh and taking cheap shots at posters who show pride in their school is childish and immature.

 

[AmyO]

I really don't think you are disappointing anyone. I understood what that poster was saying.

Thank goodness! Somebody got it! I can't believe anybody took that seriously even when I put one of those laughing guys behind it. Thanks USArmyDoc 👍

 

[AmoryBlaine]

I don't think that I would pick based on grades or test scores because I'm more concerned with clinical performance. For instance, if I ever need a lawyer, I'm not going to pick the one who has the best bar exam grade. I'm going to pick the one who usually keeps his/her clients out of jail. I could care less what s/he did in school. I'm looking for "real world" statistics instead of test grades. Unfortunately, there is no real way to quantify that.

That's really the crux of the situation isn't it? The public evaluates MD competency basically by how they like them as people.

"Oh Dr. X is such a great doctor!" - Well, how do you know that? Is the fact that he is kind and gentle at the bedside and remembers your kid's names proof of that? Certainly not.

As I have said before, I am suprised at the undercurrent of thought in medical training that thinks that scores, tests, and grades are predictive of nothing. Saying that MCAT scores don't matter (when there are good studies showing they do) is like like denying the assertions of a solid RCT from NEJM. My favorite response is "well I did poorly on the MCAT and I am kicking butt at my DO/MD school." Great, we'll take your non-randomized n=1 study to the bank.

Disclaimer: I am an M3 at an MD school and I think DOs are just fine, never met a DO or DO student I didn't like. Actually I'm probably going to spend a few days with a DO FP to learn a little bit about OMM.

 

[want2beadoc]

In all seriousness...
I think there is a lot of regional differences and prejudices when it comes to this. When I was applying to my state schools, my aunt (from a different state) said something to the effect, "Oh you don't want to be an osteopath, be a real doctor." I was offended... I am going to the MD school, but I certainly don't think DOs are any less of doctors.

I shadowed an FP (a DO) who had a couple DO students rotating under him. The students had both taken the USLME Step 1 and passed (also stating that 100% of the students that took it in their class had passed). I know its apples to oranges... but I was impressed. They also had great bedside manner (not saying that all DOs have great bedside manner or that MDs have terrible bedside manner).


In no seriousness whatsoever 😉...
http://scientologytalk2.ytmnd.com/

1) Replace church of scientology with osteopathy
2) Replace scientologist with osteopath
3) Replace L Ron Hubbard with Still

Voila.

 

[rup47]

First off its COMLEX, not COMPLEX. And if you want to find out the actually differences of the test, go into the osteopathic forum or the USMLE/COMLEX forums and see what osteopathic students say about it.

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.

While I admit I've only laughed at the last few pages of the thread, its amusing to see the viewpoints of people in med school while when I talk to medical directors and attendings at various medical programs across the country who tell me a completely different side of the story. Doctors are doctors. There is no MD/DO border out there. The sooner y'all figure that out and decide to step down off the horse the better. Some doctors are better than others but when it comes down to gpa/MCAT/USMLE/COMLEX/class ranking. After residency, no one gives a ****. And that is honestly a fact. Whether you are DO/MD. You know some MD's have to "not" do well on the USMLE and someone has to be at the BOTTOM of your MD class.

Now if you are going to do a field in a DO program that has limited supplied residencies and is competitive, will it be harder for DO's? Of course it will be, especially because the number of DO's is on a smaller scale than MDs, as well as there are some "good old boy" docs that still think DO's aren't worthy. Well are they worthy? It seems that most of the medical organizations and state boarding licensures do, so why don't they or better yet why don't youyou? B/c they don't have a good of a gpa or MCAT score? There is more to a dynamic person than two aspects of who they are and until people can look at the whole person instead of the numbers, most people who have a few bumps in the road might go to DO schools. That's just how it is. Doesn't mean everyone wants to go into surgery/cardiology/ortho/derm/rads. There are all types of people and all types of doctors. Having a closed mind in this world won't get your far, unless you find others like you can join their club and get the secret decoder ring. Then you're pretty much removed from society at that point anyway so the rest of us don't have to deal with you.

Oh and taking cheap shots at posters who show pride in their school is childish and immature.

👍 👍 👍

MD's and DO's do work side by side in many places and they do not bring up the fact that one of them has a DO and the other has an MD. They talk about patient care, research, etc....

from an Orthopaedic surgeon at the hospital I work in, "we have 5 residents here, our best resident is a 2nd year DO graduate who is more knowledgeable and a better clinician than our 3rd and 4th year MD residents."

I know that is just anecdotol evidence. But it shows that regardless of MCATs and GPAs, someone who wants to excel can do so at a DO school or MD school.

That said, I will be attending an MD school next year because regardless of how I feel about doctors being doctors no matter what the initials are behind their name, I believe getting an MD and pursuing a difficult specialty such as Orthopaedic surgery will be easier and have less obstacles compared to the DO degree.

 

[saradoor]

...

That said, I will be attending an MD school next year because regardless of how I feel about doctors being doctors no matter what the initials are behind their name, I believe getting an MD and pursuing a difficult specialty such as Orthopaedic surgery will be easier and have less obstacles compared to the DO degree.

Good choice!

It is funny that a lot of folks just talk up DOs and I think many on this thread have claimed they know some DOs who are better than their fellow MDs. Many were also claiming that near 100% DOs from a particular school/class who took the USMLE step 1 passed. This is great but when it comes down to it they themselves still prefer to go to a US/Canada MD school over a DO school. This reminds me of the behavior with regarding to sexism/racism/... (e.g., I cannot be a sexist, my mother is a woman!) 😉

 

[SoHotRightNow]

👍 👍 👍

MD's and DO's do work side by side in many places and they do not bring up the fact that one of them has a DO and the other has an MD. They talk about patient care, research, etc....

from an Orthopaedic surgeon at the hospital I work in, "we have 5 residents here, our best resident is a 2nd year DO graduate who is more knowledgeable and a better clinician than our 3rd and 4th year MD residents."

I know that is just anecdotol evidence. But it shows that regardless of MCATs and GPAs, someone who wants to excel can do so at a DO school or MD school.

That said, I will be attending an MD school next year because regardless of how I feel about doctors being doctors no matter what the initials are behind their name, I believe getting an MD and pursuing a difficult specialty such as Orthopaedic surgery will be easier and have less obstacles compared to the DO degree.

Nice Post...Im in the same boat. MD = more open doors. Although I would think that for ortho, the DO MSK training would be a great asset.

 

[saradoor]

Since the subject of this thread is What do you all think of DO's? and this thread is posted under Allopathic, everyone should just let folks express their honest (or even misguided) opinions regarding the question. Because this is what this forum is all about! If you want people to only say the *right* things, please post this type of questions under Osteopathic!

If you don't want to hear the answers, don't ask the question! 🙂

 

[allendo]

Nice Post...Im in the same boat. MD = more open doors. Although I would think that for ortho, the DO MSK training would be a great asset.

D.O.'s have just as many orthopedic residencies as the allopath world

 

[SoHotRightNow]

D.O.'s have just as many orthopedic residencies as the allopath world

But I have to think the training that the majority of MDs get in an allo residency is more desireable...is there any other reason for DO's to take the USMLE and attempt to match in allo programs? While some allo schools are DO friendly, there is only a small % of DO's that match in allo programs. Bottom line = more closed doors for the DO folk. Im not saying that I agree with it at all...it is what it is unfortunatley. Once in the workforce, I am not sure...I would assume that DO trained ortho's could get jobs just like MD's...that is of course unless you wanted to practice surgery somewhere else in the world that doesn't recognize DO's as being on par with MD's...once again...another closed door.

 

[allendo]

But I have to think the training that the majority of MDs get in an allo residency is more desireable...is there any other reason for DO's to take the USMLE and attempt to match in allo programs? While some allo schools are DO friendly, there is only a small % of DO's that match in allo programs. Bottom line = more closed doors for the DO folk. Im not saying that I agree with it at all...it is what it is unfortunatley. Once in the workforce, I am not sure...I would assume that DO trained ortho's could get jobs just like MD's...that is of course unless you wanted to practice surgery somewhere else in the world that doesn't recognize DO's as being on par with MD's...once again...another closed door.

There are many good osteopathic programs, the problem is that many D.O.s pursue the allo programs b/c they worry about the stigma attached to the D.O. programs, or location (most osteopath programs are in the midwest or east coast). I understand your point! I didn't worry about this b/c I want to persue emergency medicine, many osteopathic em programs and almost all allopath em programs are receptive to D.O.'s. You have to go with what will meet your career goals.

 

[ADDchild]

First off its COMLEX, not COMPLEX. And if you want to find out the actually differences of the test, go into the osteopathic forum or the USMLE/COMLEX forums and see what osteopathic students say about it.

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.


Oh and taking cheap shots at posters who show pride in their school is childish and immature.

Told ya I couldn't spell. That and the fact that it was like one in the morning or something, as well as the fact that I dont have to take it makes me a poor COMLEX speller. I must have a COMLEX spelling COMPLEX

I dont know if the "you", you are talking about, is refering to me-kinda hard to keep tract with people posting/responding in between and dont remember taking a cheap shot at posters who show pride in their school.

Again I want to state that my response was not a comment on the quality of care given by DO's or their competency, only a report of facts by the NBME. Although your comment

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.

seems to imply that they are lacking in some of the core medical concepts in order to learn osteopath stuff. One thing I wonder is what do DO's do with all the extra osteopath stuff they learned since every DO that I've had the privilage to work with(I guess learn from is more appropriate since's their the Doc and I'm just a lowly MS3) or be treated by, didn't do anything different from an allopath--although they did it just as well 🙂 .

The issue seems to really be between allopathic students and osteopathic students not MD's/DO's although haven't graduated yet so can't say for certain. This thread along with the number of post certainlyn supports that. I've been to the osteopath forum and was surprised by the number of post sarcastically bashing allopaths with none talking of how equal allopaths are to osteopaths(maybe there is and I just didn't find it, I'm about as good at finding things as I am with spelling). I also didn't find MD's/allopaths posting in the osteopath forum asking what DO's think of MD's(again maybe just missed it). Makes me feel like allopaths are not the ones driving this discord.

 

[homeboy]

Dr. Weebs is to the allopath side as the "gun-ho OMM-loving 'DOs are better physicians' "-types-of-people are to the osteopaths...there's few of both, but they unfortunately are the ones doing the most damage to the professional relationship between MDs and DOs.

Like someone said a few posts back, PDs don't care about your undergrad scores, and neither do your patients--they want you to be good and caring physicians (and PDs want you to have scored well on your boards). I don't deny the disparities in admission standards, especially with the new DO schools opening...some pretty pathetic scores have been accepted. And I do think many students who go to DO school didn't get accepted at MD school.

But if you're going to have the rationale of choosing a doctor because of discrepencies in pre-med statistics, you'd be better off using the logic of choosing an American MD over a foreign-grad MD. For many MD schools outside Europe, your acceptance is based on your or your family's ability to pay, your status is society, and your connections, with absolutely no bearing on pre-med statistics. Heck, some countries don't even require college-equivalent training. Yet, these MDs study for US licensing exams, pass, and practice here.

And just because a DO student didn't get into MD school, doesn't mean they couldn't hack it. Everyone I know just didn't want to wait another year and reapply, and saw the end-point being the same, with the only hurdles to jump being dealing with possible 'discrimination' from other professionals.

I do think, however, that DO students should just take the USMLE, and the COMLEX should just be gotten rid of. DO students don't take the USMLE for 2 reasons: 1.) they plan on AOA residency and don't feel they need it, or 2.) they don't want to put the extra time into studying and are afraid they'll do poor. I think the second rationale is a horrible one, but I guarantee you, many students have it.

We don't learn anything less, we just don't get tested on everything: embryo, biochem, genetics, biostats, general phys...all are subjects rarely tested on the COMLEX.

 

[allendo]

Told ya I couldn't spell. That and the fact that it was like one in the morning or something, as well as the fact that I dont have to take it makes me a poor COMLEX speller. I must have a COMLEX spelling COMPLEX

I dont know if the "you", you are talking about, is refering to me-kinda hard to keep tract with people posting/responding in between and dont remember taking a cheap shot at posters who show pride in their school.

Again I want to state that my response was not a comment on the quality of care given by DO's or their competency, only a report of facts by the NBME. Although your comment

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.

seems to imply that they are lacking in some of the core medical concepts in order to learn osteopath stuff. One thing I wonder is what do DO's do with all the extra osteopath stuff they learned since every DO that I've had the privilage to work with(I guess learn from is more appropriate since's their the Doc and I'm just a lowly MS3) or be treated by, didn't do anything different from an allopath--although they did it just as well 🙂 .

The issue seems to really be between allopathic students and osteopathic students not MD's/DO's although haven't graduated yet so can't say for certain. This thread along with the number of post certainlyn supports that. I've been to the osteopath forum and was surprised by the number of post sarcastically bashing allopaths with none talking of how equal allopaths are to osteopaths(maybe there is and I just didn't find it, I'm about as good at finding things as I am with spelling). I also didn't find MD's/allopaths posting in the osteopath forum asking what DO's think of MD's(again maybe just missed it). Makes me feel like allopaths are not the ones driving this discord.

The problem with this whole thread is that it was started by an insecure D.O. There are those of us in the osteopath world that chose the D.O. route b/c our doc was a D.O.(myself) And there are those that chose the route b/c they were rejected by M.D. (probably the majority) I being a D.O. student myself can't see why the op posted the question, unless they have not had any real world medical exp. In the real world people don't care, doctors don't care, and pts don't care what degree you have and where you went to school as long as your good. Look at the internal medicine subspecialties many years back, they were and some still are saturated with international graduates. Does anyone question where they went to school? No One of the top cardiologist in my area went to school in india, no one cares b/c he is good. The point being we will all be physicians, some good and some bad regardless of the degree or where we went to school.

 

[homeboy]

The problem with this whole thread is that it was started by an insecure D.O. There are those of us in the osteopath world that chose the D.O. route b/c our doc was a D.O.(myself) And there are those that chose the route b/c they were rejected by M.D. (probably the majority) I being a D.O. student myself can't see why the op posted the question, unless they have not had any real world medical exp. In the real world people don't care, doctors don't care, and pts don't care what degree you have and where you went to school as long as your good. Look at the internal medicine subspecialties many years back, they were and some still are saturated with international graduates. Does anyone question where they went to school? No One of the top cardiologist in my area went to school in india, no one cares b/c he is good. The point being we will all be physicians, some good and some bad regardless of the degree or where we went to school.

Ditto--agree with for FMG statement.
for=your

 

[ADDchild]

The problem with this whole thread is that it was started by an insecure D.O. There are those of us in the osteopath world that chose the D.O. route b/c our doc was a D.O.(myself) And there are those that chose the route b/c they were rejected by M.D. (probably the majority) I being a D.O. student myself can't see why the op posted the question, unless they have not had any real world medical exp. In the real world people don't care, doctors don't care, and pts don't care what degree you have and where you went to school as long as your good. Look at the internal medicine subspecialties many years back, they were and some still are saturated with international graduates. Does anyone question where they went to school? No One of the top cardiologist in my area went to school in india, no one cares b/c he is good. The point being we will all be physicians, some good and some bad regardless of the degree or where we went to school.

I being a D.O. student myself can't see why the op posted the question

asked the same thing in an earlier post to the OP--why does OP care

I give you props for your confidence and agree. If more DO students were as confident as you are there would be less of these threads.

I also agree with the post by HOMEBOY, well at least the part about having all physicians take the same exam be that USMLE/COMLEX/or some new creation of 5-6 letters. It's the same sentiment with NP's, psychologist, DNP's, pharmacist etc.... all those that want prescription rights or want to expand their prescription rights. Go to med school (MD/DO or equivalent like that weird named medical degree from England that the president of our hospital/university has) and take the liscensing exam, or at least take the liscensing exam--one that should be the same for everyone which as stated above it's not-shouldn't everyone be held to the same level of knowledge/competency (I know test scores are not the only judge of competency-although if after graduating from college, scoring well enough on the MCAT, passing 4 years of med school, passing all 3 steps of USMLE and finishing a residency, a person could be less than a competent-not necessarily good-Doctor is perplexing. Remember all those steps are linked at least for allopaths, can't take step1 till you've passed MS2, step2 till after you've passed Med school, etc...) If the program, which ever of the above has extra stuff like DO's, then unfortunately they will have to take extra exams not less, at which time I would question why it's not something that is tested in the liscensing exam in the first place.

 

[OSUdoc08]

But I have to think the training that the majority of MDs get in an allo residency is more desireable...is there any other reason for DO's to take the USMLE and attempt to match in allo programs? While some allo schools are DO friendly, there is only a small % of DO's that match in allo programs. Bottom line = more closed doors for the DO folk. Im not saying that I agree with it at all...it is what it is unfortunatley. Once in the workforce, I am not sure...I would assume that DO trained ortho's could get jobs just like MD's...that is of course unless you wanted to practice surgery somewhere else in the world that doesn't recognize DO's as being on par with MD's...once again...another closed door.

That's not really true, or at least at my school. Just about everyone, if not all who apply to ACGME programs get accepted. Of course we traditionally have extremely high pass rates on the USMLE at my school.

As far as abroad is concerned, DO's are recognized as equivalent as MD's in most countries.

 

[allendo]

I being a D.O. student myself can't see why the op posted the question

What are you getting at?? Why did you repost my comment?

 

[jason3278]

But I have to think the training that the majority of MDs get in an allo residency is more desireable...is there any other reason for DO's to take the USMLE and attempt to match in allo programs? While some allo schools are DO friendly, there is only a small % of DO's that match in allo programs. Bottom line = more closed doors for the DO folk. Im not saying that I agree with it at all...it is what it is unfortunatley. Once in the workforce, I am not sure...I would assume that DO trained ortho's could get jobs just like MD's...that is of course unless you wanted to practice surgery somewhere else in the world that doesn't recognize DO's as being on par with MD's...once again...another closed door.

Several countries do recognize DOs, and some do not. But that is really besides the point, because many of them will not hire a foreign doctor (MD, DO, OD, DM, BLT, etc.) if the position can be filled by a doc who is from that country.

 

[allendo]

Several countries do recognize DOs, and some do not. But that is really besides the point, because many of them will not hire a foreign doctor if the position can be filled by a doc who is from that country.

To add to that, if you go on medical missions everyone gets a temp license to practice.

 

[JohnnyOU]

What do you all think of DO's? = Do these pants make my *ss look big?

 

[ADDchild]

What are you getting at?? Why did you repost my comment?

sorry my kid hit the submit before i had a chance to finish. I edited it and you can read my response above- If you want to.

 

[rup47]

Good choice!

It is funny that a lot of folks just talk up DOs and I think many on this thread have claimed they know some DOs who are better than their fellow MDs. Many were also claiming that near 100% DOs from a particular school/class who took the USMLE step 1 passed. This is great but when it comes down to it they themselves still prefer to go to a US/Canada MD school over a DO school. This reminds me of the behavior with regarding to sexism/racism/... (e.g., I cannot be a sexist, my mother is a woman!) 😉

I brought up the fact that this was merely anecdotal evidence that DOs can make good doctors. I never said DOs are better than MDs. And yes the fact remains that MDs are still generally better recieved than their DO counterparts and that MD schools are typically more difficult to get into.

My point was that a DO or an MD can make a good doctor. Judging someone by the initials behind their name accomplishes nothing. I was trying to make the point that Doctors (DO and MD) judge each other on their accomplishments. What their reputation is with patients, what relevant research have they done, what surgeries/procedures are they known for, etc.

So what if I choose an MD school. There are more of them around and my stats were competative at a decent number of allopathic schools so I applied MD.

My point to this whole ramble is that with out knowing the doctor and his/her achievements and reputation among other doctors/patients you can not make a judgement on him/her based on the initials behind his name other than he/she was granted a medical degree.

 

[Northerner]

First off its COMLEX, not COMPLEX. And if you want to find out the actually differences of the test, go into the osteopathic forum or the USMLE/COMLEX forums and see what osteopathic students say about it.

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.

While I admit I've only laughed at the last few pages of the thread, its amusing to see the viewpoints of people in med school while when I talk to medical directors and attendings at various medical programs across the country who tell me a completely different side of the story. Doctors are doctors. There is no MD/DO border out there. The sooner y'all figure that out and decide to step down off the horse the better. Some doctors are better than others but when it comes down to gpa/MCAT/USMLE/COMLEX/class ranking. After residency, no one gives a ****. And that is honestly a fact. Whether you are DO/MD. You know some MD's have to "not" do well on the USMLE and someone has to be at the BOTTOM of your MD class.

Now if you are going to do a field in a DO program that has limited supplied residencies and is competitive, will it be harder for DO's? Of course it will be, especially because the number of DO's is on a smaller scale than MDs, as well as there are some "good old boy" docs that still think DO's aren't worthy. Well are they worthy? It seems that most of the medical organizations and state boarding licensures do, so why don't they or better yet why don't youyou? B/c they don't have a good of a gpa or MCAT score? There is more to a dynamic person than two aspects of who they are and until people can look at the whole person instead of the numbers, most people who have a few bumps in the road might go to DO schools. That's just how it is. Doesn't mean everyone wants to go into surgery/cardiology/ortho/derm/rads. There are all types of people and all types of doctors. Having a closed mind in this world won't get your far, unless you find others like you can join their club and get the secret decoder ring. Then you're pretty much removed from society at that point anyway so the rest of us don't have to deal with you.

Oh and taking cheap shots at posters who show pride in their school is childish and immature.

If anyone is looking for a perfect example of a "cop-out" on a debate, here it is. I feel like people are missing the point of the debate.

The real issue underlying this thread is that people want to figure out what it means to be excellent as a practitioner. It harkens to some highly controversial issues such as PA rights, DNP rights, FMGs, class rank...basically ANY differentiator of physicians' education and training. The fact that people have honed in on the D.O./M.D. difference isn't shocking. There IS a difference. Otherwise, they'd all confer the same degree. Think about how much variability there is across MD curricula even. Certainly there is a difference between the degrees. The question is: is it significant, and does the significance (if found) have any relationship to patient care? It doesn't take a rocket scientist to say "doctors are dynamic individuals who can't be summed up by numbers", hopefully we all know that, it's common sense. But as people of science, we have to subscribe to an analytical approach to understand the differences that concern us. So anyone saying, "there is no difference", you're wrong. All things equal, there is likely no functional difference in care provided. That's the most you can say. And anyone saying "the numbers suggest..." that's fine, and perhaps the best statistical and systemic indicator in favor of your argument.

The fact remains, however, that no one has a good bearing on what constitutes excellence as a practitioner. The real issue isn't what physicians think of each other, it's not about ego. It's about the fact that the average patient has even LESS of an idea of what an excellent practitioner is, so who should they trust, and who should they trust most?

So shelf the pride, this is a timely and relevant topic that doesn't just apply to the DO title, and debate. As people who are more "in the know" than the general public (since it's our field), this is where the debate is most important. Don't stifle it.

 

[Brickhouse]

If anyone is looking for a perfect example of a "cop-out" on a debate, here it is.

Are you at a DO school northie? I thought you were at USUHS and that's an allopathic school.

 

[Northerner]

Are you at a DO school northie? I thought you were at USUHS and that's an allopathic school.

No, I'm not. But I am allo.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

First off its COMLEX, not COMPLEX. And if you want to find out the actually differences of the test, go into the osteopathic forum or the USMLE/COMLEX forums and see what osteopathic students say about it.

COMLEX is well known to be a poorly written test which heavy concentrations COMPLETELY different than USMLE. Yes you have the same science classes but there is no doubt that there has to be some difference in the curriculum as something has to give with having OMM in osteopathic schools.

While I admit I've only laughed at the last few pages of the thread, its amusing to see the viewpoints of people in med school while when I talk to medical directors and attendings at various medical programs across the country who tell me a completely different side of the story. Doctors are doctors. There is no MD/DO border out there. The sooner y'all figure that out and decide to step down off the horse the better. Some doctors are better than others but when it comes down to gpa/MCAT/USMLE/COMLEX/class ranking. After residency, no one gives a ****. And that is honestly a fact. Whether you are DO/MD. You know some MD's have to "not" do well on the USMLE and someone has to be at the BOTTOM of your MD class.

Now if you are going to do a field in a DO program that has limited supplied residencies and is competitive, will it be harder for DO's? Of course it will be, especially because the number of DO's is on a smaller scale than MDs, as well as there are some "good old boy" docs that still think DO's aren't worthy. Well are they worthy? It seems that most of the medical organizations and state boarding licensures do, so why don't they or better yet why don't youyou? B/c they don't have a good of a gpa or MCAT score? There is more to a dynamic person than two aspects of who they are and until people can look at the whole person instead of the numbers, most people who have a few bumps in the road might go to DO schools. That's just how it is. Doesn't mean everyone wants to go into surgery/cardiology/ortho/derm/rads. There are all types of people and all types of doctors. Having a closed mind in this world won't get your far, unless you find others like you can join their club and get the secret decoder ring. Then you're pretty much removed from society at that point anyway so the rest of us don't have to deal with you.

Oh and taking cheap shots at posters who show pride in their school is childish and immature.

Your point is taken about MD's not doing well, being the bottom of the class etc.

However, should the bottom of the class at a top 25 MD program, with average MCATs of 32-34 be punished for being in a really top program with incredibly bright students who have been aces their whole life? They're at the bottom of the best. Is someone who finishes in the top half of their DO class, where they came in with 23-25 MCATs really a better student? Even if they're #1, they're being ranked against a population of people who aren't the best students. Heck, it's even fathomable that the #1 student at a school like that would be just an average to above average student at the previous MD school example. That's why I keep going back to MCAT/GPA. The same argument is made in undergrad too. I think someone who gets a 3.0 at Harvard is a beast. Half of the people at that school got 4.0/1600SAT in high school. If you can do just OK in terms of rank at a school with students like that, you would be doing totally awesome at most other schools.

Anyways, I never said this had anything to do with making a better doctor. I never said people "give a ****" about your MCAT scores when you are a resident/practicing physician. I know that nobody does. But, if I knew only their degree, I know the MD has most likely been the better STUDENT of their trade their whole life. That's all I've said. There are many many other factors in being a good physician, and there is absolutely no possible way for me to know any of them unless I have some sort of word of mouf (awyea.. mouf), or institutional backing. Like I said, if ALL I KNEW WAS THEIR DEGREE, I'd pick the MD. That's it. Maybe a DO would be a better FP. Who knows? There's no way to measure it, as someone mentioned earlier, so I can only guess off of what I know.

Lastly, you obviously haven't read what I said. I swear, half of the people reading this thread want to continue fighting. MsHead... go back and read my posts before you start saying that I don't think DO's are worthy and that I have a closed mind, that I will end up being removed from society. I am starting to wonder if people on SDN can actually read English. I've mentioned all along that I would be perfectly fine with a DO taking care of me if I knew them as a person, if I knew their rep, if I trusted their institution, and that I'm sure almost all of them are competent, if not great doctors. I've also said I hope everyone in DO school right now becomes a great doctor so that I can work beside them.

So, it seems you are the one with the closed mind, as you choose to read only parts of my posts and then feel like you have the right to respond to my point of view in a condescending tone.

I really had absolutely nothing against DO's when this thread started. The more it goes on... the more they are annoying me.

Started by a DO:
Student Doctor Network Forums > Medical Student Forums > Allopathic > What do you all think of DO's?

Ridiculous.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Your point is taken about MD's not doing well, being the bottom of the class etc.

However, should the bottom of the class at a top 25 MD program, with average MCATs of 32-34 be punished for being in a really top program with incredibly bright students who have been aces their whole life? They're at the bottom of the best. Is someone who finishes in the top half of their DO class, where they came in with 23-25 MCATs really a better student?

I stopped reading here, since it is evident that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I was rejected from a couple of DO schools with a 28 --> and wouldn't have even been in the BOTTOM of the class at those schools.

👎

P.S. The MCAT has nothing to do with medical school. The information from studying for the MCAT was nowhere to be found on my USMLE.

I'm not even sure why organic chemistry and physics are even prerequisites for medical school.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

The problem with this whole thread is that it was started by an insecure D.O. There are those of us in the osteopath world that chose the D.O. route b/c our doc was a D.O.(myself) And there are those that chose the route b/c they were rejected by M.D. (probably the majority) I being a D.O. student myself can't see why the op posted the question, unless they have not had any real world medical exp. In the real world people don't care, doctors don't care, and pts don't care what degree you have and where you went to school as long as your good. Look at the internal medicine subspecialties many years back, they were and some still are saturated with international graduates. Does anyone question where they went to school? No One of the top cardiologist in my area went to school in india, no one cares b/c he is good. The point being we will all be physicians, some good and some bad regardless of the degree or where we went to school.

I agree with this.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I stopped reading here, since it is evident that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about.

I was rejected from a couple of DO schools with a 28 --> and wouldn't have even been in the BOTTOM of the class at those schools.

👎

P.S. The MCAT has nothing to do with medical school. The information from studying for the MCAT was nowhere to be found on my USMLE.

I'm not even sure why organic chemistry and physics are even prerequisites for medical school.

Well, kudos to you for being ignorant enough to respond to a post while only reading 2 lines of it. Also, your point about MCAT material not being on the USMLE is asinine. It DOES have something to do with medical school. It's designed to see if you can retain a large amount of info, learn new info while taking the test, organize a lot of info in your head, and lastly, use it all while under a strict time pressure. And, it correlates to doing well on the boards and doing well in medical school. So.. your ignorance is noted.

More anecdotal evidence. You got a 28. Good for you, that's a good score. We're talking about averages here. The averages are not you. You are obviously above the average for DO applicants. The averages are of large sample sizes. Last year, the average MCAT scores for DO schools were around a 24. You got a 28. That means someone had to get a 20 to make up for you, or 3 people had to get two 23's and a 22, so that the average would be 24. Don't you get that? That is why anecdotal evidence, with a sample size of 1 is so useless. Also, do you think that people who got 24's and 3.4's will really do as well as someone who got a 35 and a 3.8 in college if they both worked the same at it? I highly highly doubt that. Again, if we took a sample size of 1 and found some exceptional anecdotal evidence, sure, you could spin it that it's always possible. The reality is that in large sample sizes, that will be found untrue. That's why medical schools have grades/MCAT as a large admissions factor. They indicate how well the student will do in medical school and on the boards. That's been my point all along. I still think people are too PC to admit that.

As for making a good physician, I think the point has been made, and it's a VERY good point, that it is impossible to measure how good a physician is strictly by #'s from school. However, when comparing MD's and DO's, all other things I consider equal (we can't assume DO students are all better people and nicer and relate better to their patients... neither can we assume it the other way around for MD's. There's nothing to support either one of those arguments). Thus, I'm left with how good the students/docs are academically... remember, AS A WHOLE, looking at an average of a large sample size.

I'm not against DO's. I have friends who are DO's. I work with DO's at my hospital. I would be happy to have a DO take care of me. I hope every single DO student reading this goes out there and kicks some ass in school so that I can be their colleague someday. I am merely stating differences between the two. There ARE differences. Otherwise, we wouldn't have two different programs, with different admissions standards, different curriculums, different boards, and different residency programs. We also wouldn't have a DO coming onto an allopathic board and asking what allos think of them.

Student Doctor Network Forums > Medical Student Forums > Allopathic > What do you all think of DO's?

 

[OSUdoc08]

Well, kudos to you for being ignorant enough to respond to a post while only reading 2 lines of it. Also, your point about MCAT material not being on the USMLE is asinine. It DOES have something to do with medical school. It's designed to see if you can retain a large amount of info, learn new info while taking the test, organize a lot of info in your head, and lastly, use it all while under a strict time pressure. And, it correlates to doing well on the boards and doing well in medical school. So.. your ignorance is noted.

More anecdotal evidence. You got a 28. Good for you, that's a good score. We're talking about averages here. The averages are not you. You are obviously above the average for DO applicants. The averages are of large sample sizes. Last year, the average MCAT scores for DO schools were around a 24. You got a 28. That means someone had to get a 20 to make up for you, or 3 people had to get two 23's and a 22, so that the average would be 24. Don't you get that? That is why anecdotal evidence, with a sample size of 1 is so useless. Also, do you think that people who got 24's and 3.4's will really do as well as someone who got a 35 and a 3.8 in college if they both worked the same at it? I highly highly doubt that. Again, if we took a sample size of 1 and found some exceptional anecdotal evidence, sure, you could spin it that it's always possible. The reality is that in large sample sizes, that will be found untrue. That's why medical schools have grades/MCAT as a large admissions factor. They indicate how well the student will do in medical school and on the boards. That's been my point all along. I still think people are too PC to admit that.

As for making a good physician, I think the point has been made, and it's a VERY good point, that it is impossible to measure how good a physician is strictly by #'s from school. However, when comparing MD's and DO's, all other things I consider equal (we can't assume DO students are all better people and nicer and relate better to their patients... neither can we assume it the other way around for MD's. There's nothing to support either one of those arguments). Thus, I'm left with how good the students/docs are academically... remember, AS A WHOLE, looking at an average of a large sample size.

I'm not against DO's. I have friends who are DO's. I work with DO's at my hospital. I would be happy to have a DO take care of me. I hope every single DO student reading this goes out there and kicks some ass in school so that I can be their colleague someday. I am merely stating differences between the two. There ARE differences. Otherwise, we wouldn't have two different programs, with different admissions standards, different curriculums, different boards, and different residency programs. We also wouldn't have a DO coming onto an allopathic board and asking what allos think of them.

Student Doctor Network Forums > Medical Student Forums > Allopathic > What do you all think of DO's?

The average scores of the top DO schools was more around 28. You can't apply a blanket statement to all schools since they are not consistent across the board with the types of students they accept.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

The average scores of the top DO schools was more around 28. You can't apply a blanket statement to all schools since they are not consistent across the board with the types of students they accept.

Neat. The average score at top MD programs was 35-37. What's your point?

I made it clear the whole time, which you obviously can't seem to get, that I was referring to averages of large sample sizes, and that there will always be exceptions.

Also, you helped make some of my earlier point with that stat. The top DO schools still don't have as high of test scores as the AVERAGE MD school. I'd say its more accurate that the top DO schools and the bottom MD schools is where the MD/DO overlap occurs with test scores/grades.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Neat. The average score at top MD programs was 35-37. What's your point?

I made it clear the whole time, which you obviously can't seem to get, that I was referring to averages of large sample sizes, and that there will always be exceptions.

Also, you helped make some of my earlier point with that stat. The top DO schools still don't have as high of test scores as the AVERAGE MD school. I'd say its more accurate that the top DO schools and the bottom MD schools is where the MD/DO overlap occurs with test scores/grades.

OH REALLY?

DO show me your data on this one, since you obviously don't have any. Puhleez!

 

[Dr. Weebs]

OH REALLY?

DO show me your data on this one, since you obviously don't have any. Puhleez!

Dude, are you serious? You just told me yourself that top DO school students average a 28 on the MCAT. That's about where the bottom US MD schools are. And, this is silly to argue about anyways. Obviously, most of the DO doctors out there didn't come from top schools. Also, most MD doctors out there didn't come from top schools. Thus, it is very logical to look at the average. You really are being irrational in your argument.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Dude, are you serious? You just told me yourself that top DO school students average a 28 on the MCAT. That's about where the bottom US MD schools are. And, this is silly to argue about anyways. Obviously, most of the DO doctors out there didn't come from top schools. Also, most MD doctors out there didn't come from top schools. Thus, it is very logical to look at the average. You really are being irrational in your argument.

Are we talking about the MCAT or the USMLE?

If your answer is MCAT---who cares?

I figured you were talking about the USMLE since that is the only exam medical students take---MCAT is for pre-meds only!

 

[Dr. Weebs]

Are we talking about the MCAT or the USMLE?

If your answer is MCAT---who cares?

Hahahaha. I think I am being baited here. You were the one who brought up top DO schools MCAT scores. And, unless we have definitive data from the USMLE from specific schools, its very safe to assume that the higher the matriculant's MCAT scores, the higher their board scores. It correlates very well. Yes, I know there are exceptions, so don't bring back another sample size of 1 anecdotal argument. They're useless. The data shows that USMLE scores are way lower for DO students, and that something around 30% of them don't even pass. I do have a link for that directly from the USMLE, but I'm too lazy to put it on here. Yes yes.. I know youre going to come back at me and say that top DO schools or top DO students do just fine. But again, we're looking at averages because most people can't be the top. The chances are, when you go see a doctor down the street, he was an average medical student. Why? Because most people are around the average...