What do you all think of DO's?

[Doctor Bagel]

what's the difference between an MD vs. DO vs. Foreign trained MD? why would you prefer DO over foreign trained? is it quality of education? is it standard of admission? is it that foreign trained MDs are some sort of reject?

It's too bad that a DO school would admit someone who outright illegally scam other poor student with prep materials that they themselve did not produce - that other students post to help each other out.

To your first question, yeah, US grads of offshore schools are generally rejects of both DO and MD programs in the US.

To your second paragraph, huh??

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[ForbiddenComma]

This is another good point. Except... don't DO's have their own slots for a lot of primary care DO residencies? If that is true (which I am only assuming it is... please correct me if I am wrong here), then how can you differentiate between the residencies of an MD and a DO? They're inherently different. The DO residency pool is drawing only from DO's... so... we're back to square one again. Do you see my point? I don't know if I'm stating this very well.

For example: I know it's easy to compare, say, Brigham and Women's Internal Medicine Residency with, some tiny community hospital in the middle of nowhere that fails to fill every single year. You could also compare the DO residency at a prestigious institution with one that is widely known as below average. But, how do you compare the average DO residency with the average MD residency? You have to be able to have some sort of standardized measure. Thus enter board scores.

That's my opinion... I'm open to discussion though, as I am, as you pointed out, inexperienced and merely entering medical school. I appreciate your input.

One of the problems IMO is exactly this "seperate yet equal" system of MD vs. DO residencies. Part of the problem is few people know how to compare the two, and part of the problem is that the "segregation" makes people think less of DOs. This despite the fact that many DO programs are outstanding: Isn't there a DO school in Michigan that actually ranks higher than Harvard in USNews' primary care list?

Integrating the match would go a long way to improving DO prestige among the naysayers, IMO, so that DO students are judged by their school and their residency more than the simple fact that they are DO at all.


oh, and for the record, I flew into such a rage when exlawgrrrl didn't spell "optometrist" correctly that I killed three people while screaming misogynist insults. I am now writing this from jail. Well, a nice jail, one with free internet access, because I'm in one of those Democratic districts, with a nice Democratic judge who will let me off with time served hopefully. Anyway...

 

[med-i-cal]

This is another good point. Except... don't DO's have their own slots for a lot of primary care DO residencies? If that is true (which I am only assuming it is... please correct me if I am wrong here), then how can you differentiate between the residencies of an MD and a DO? They're inherently different. The DO residency pool is drawing only from DO's... so... we're back to square one again. Do you see my point? I don't know if I'm stating this very well.

For example: I know it's easy to compare, say, Brigham and Women's Internal Medicine Residency with, some tiny community hospital in the middle of nowhere that fails to fill every single year. You could also compare the DO residency at a prestigious institution with one that is widely known as below average. But, how do you compare the average DO residency with the average MD residency? You have to be able to have some sort of standardized measure. Thus enter board scores.

That's my opinion... I'm open to discussion though, as I am, as you pointed out, inexperienced and merely entering medical school. I appreciate your input.

To this I suppose I would say that board scores most likely aren't a great measure either. Why? COMLEX =/= USMLE. Chances are that if a DO is going into a DO residency, they will only take the COMLEX, there isn't an extremely high percentage that take the USMLE (I don't know the exact numbers). But anyway, averaged DO USMLE scores don't necessarily correlate 1:1 with MD USMLE scores.

 

[ForbiddenComma]

To your first question, yeah, US grads of offshore schools are generally rejects of both DO and MD programs in the US.

To your second paragraph, huh??

Many caribbean students actually were admitted to a DO school, but decided that they wanted the MD letters at all costs. "DO vs. Caribbean" is a favorite debate topic over in the Caribbean forum.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

One of the problems IMO is exactly this "seperate yet equal" system of MD vs. DO residencies. Part of the problem is few people know how to compare the two, and part of the problem is that the "segregation" makes people think less of DOs. This despite the fact that many DO programs are outstanding: Isn't there a DO school in Michigan that actually ranks higher than Harvard in USNews' primary care list?

Integrating the match would go a long way to improving DO prestige among the naysayers, IMO, so that DO students are judged by their school and their residency more than the simple fact that they are DO at all.


oh, and for the record, I flew into such a rage when exlawgrrrl didn't spell "optometrist" correctly that I killed three people while screaming misogynist insults. I am now writing this from jail. Well, a nice jail, one with free internet access, because I'm in one of those Democratic districts, with a nice Democratic judge who will let me off with time served hopefully. Anyway...

Maybe they exist because DO and MD are different? And have dramatically different acceptance standards? Strange thought...

Also, wouldn't give much merit to US News Primary Care rankings... their methodology has been questioned from the day they started those things. In fact, they used to do Dental rankings. They no longer do because the Dental school governing body complained that the methodology was too poor and asked not to include dental schools in their rankings.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

To this I suppose I would say that board scores most likely aren't a great measure either. Why? COMLEX =/= USMLE. Chances are that if a DO is going into a DO residency, they will only take the COMLEX, there isn't an extremely high percentage that take the USMLE (I don't know the exact numbers). But anyway, averaged DO USMLE scores don't necessarily correlate 1:1 with MD USMLE scores.

Thank you. Then you've made my point for me. The last standardized measure we can go back to is MCAT scores.

 

[tucomnvms1]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

 

[dilated]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

this post is hilarious

ps: you got dinged by TCOM despite being way above their medians, apparently their interview determined you were a bookworm with no personality and a 30 on the mcat

 

[Dr. Weebs]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

Bla bla bla.

http://www.usmle.org/scores/2005perf.htm

Barf on.

 

[allendo]

You have to remember we are fighting w/ a bunch of pre-med allo students. I can't wait untill the cocky bastards on here talking down to D.O.s are on a rotation w/ an attending that is a D.O. Look at the northeast and midwest, most allopathic institutions have D.O.s on staff that teach. About the boards, some D.O. students don't take usmle b/c it is not needed to get into allopathic residency. Depending on what part of the country you are seeking residency determines whether you take the usmle. And to those who think we are below them, what are you going to do when you show up for residency and find out that your program took a D.O. w/ comlex scores only??? Remember we will all be physicians in the end, I've met quacks on both sides of the fence. I judge the doctor by who they are and word of mouth than by the letters or diploma on the wall.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

Do you have a source to back up your claim about having better USMLE scores than Baylor? I found a Dean's meeting from 2001 (old source I know) that said TCOM averages in the 20th percentile for the USMLE, and slightly above average for the COMLEX.

http://www.hsc.unt.edu/organizations/msga/documents/minutes/drtminutes20020115.pdf

Baylor is one of the highest scoring schools in the nation on the USMLE. Weird... they have one of the highest accepted MCAT scores too. Strange how that correlates.

Good for you for getting a 30 on the MCAT. I commend you for that. It's a very difficult score to achieve for most people. However, If you even read my posts, you would read that I respect DO's, and I would trust my life to one as long as I had word of mouth that they were good, or they were backed up by an institution I trusted. The only time I would choose an MD over a DO for the sake of their degrees was if that was the ONLY information I was given. I've alreadysaid that jerk mcgee from harvard god school might be the worst doctor you've ever met, and it's possible a DO from, say TCOM could be ridiculously awesome.

But, the simple truth is that MD students are superior academically. Period. You, are an exception. Thus, if the only information I was given was DO and MD, I would obviously choose MD. Read all of my posts before. Even if your school beats Baylor on the USMLE, how many of your students actually take it? The smartest ones? This is all about averages. Averages of large samples sizes... you know... actually statistically significant data. It's as simple as that. If you want to take it as MD's flaming, you go right on ahead buddy. If that makes you feel any better.

Lest I remind you... a DO started this thread with "What do MD's think of DO's?" They got what they asked for.

 

[basupran]

I heard DO's are morans.

MDs are the smartest people on earth.

kekekeke. I think there's always going to be a division between the two schools of training. But, at the end of the day, we have to work together, whether we like it or not.

I just hope that I not looked down upon by MDs because of my DO track. But, knowing some of the old school MDs in certain places, I'm sure I'll still run into it.

 

[saradoor]

...
I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE..
...

This does not seem to be a valid claim. Can you back it up?

I hope this is not another one of your "Texas no longer lets MD's from the caribbean practice..." jokes: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3824747#post3824747

But if it is, it is funny

 

[Junkster]

The MDs are totally right. Test scores and pass ratings are what truly defines a good doctor... no, really. I always ask for a CV, plus their Step 1, 2, and 3 scores, PLUS their board exam scores before I make a reservation with them... Crap, last time I went to the ER for a trauma injury, I might have been bleeding out really bad, but I made sure to check each doctor's ID to make sure that they weren't a DO.

That's why my primary care doctor is an MD, PhD, XYZ grad from Harvard who drives a Porsche... that's also very important. They HAVE to at least own a Porsche.

Everyone just needs to settle down. From a professional setting (worked in clinical research for the past four years), I've seen no one really give a crap aboot the DO/MD thing... and I work at CU health sciences center. This place is an allopathic residency, and it's littered with DO's as professors or assistant professors...

... come to think of it, maybe that's why University of Colorado Hospital sucks so bad.

Laugh it off everyone. It's a bunch of pre med/med's in here who have not seen the real world just yet.

 

[Junkster]

hehehe... I thought everyone knew about 'moran'.

 

[thesauce]

I looked at your application profile and I just have a question for you . . . how on earth are you applying to medical school at age 19? How'd you pull that one off?

Where I'm from in Washington state, it's quite common for high school students to take classes at the local college through a program called "running start." Many of them, like me, end up with a 2-year associates degree before they graduate high school. Then another couple of years of college puts you at 19 or 20 and you can apply then. It's not terribly uncommon.

 

[ADDchild]

I've worked with great DO's. The only time there would be a difference is if you are going to an osteopathic school because you couldn't get into an allopathic school. Osteopathic schools have lower MCAT's, GPA's and a lower usmle pass rate (not trying to start a flame or fling poo just reporting posted facts). My school has a 30 or so avg MCAT, a 3.-something GPA and a 90+ usmle pass rate with NBME shelfs above ave around rank of 70%(ave nationally is 50% of course)


That being said, the one's(DO's) that are in residency and/or practicing are no less doctors, no less qualified than allopathic's. What confuses me is why they have a different program all together. Why didn't the first school just wrap up the osteopathic theories into the allopathic program(or did they and I'm just ignorant to the fact).

I'm at an allopathic school that is religious and they just wrap it up into the regular program, along with a few other med classes that I found out no-one else has to take (all though they don't take in consideration spelling or grammer thankfully---wish they had spell check on this). This it's more work for me but that was my choice, and I'm very happy about it-they've taught me how to work and respect with people of different religions and not to preach my beliefs to people in their time of need but help them fufill their religious needs.


Good Luck
Look forward to working with you.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

The MDs are totally right. Test scores and pass ratings are what truly defines a good doctor... no, really. I always ask for a CV, plus their Step 1, 2, and 3 scores, PLUS their board exam scores before I make a reservation with them... Crap, last time I went to the ER for a trauma injury, I might have been bleeding out really bad, but I made sure to check each doctor's ID to make sure that they weren't a DO.

That's why my primary care doctor is an MD, PhD, XYZ grad from Harvard who drives a Porsche... that's also very important. They HAVE to at least own a Porsche.

Everyone just needs to settle down. From a professional setting (worked in clinical research for the past four years), I've seen no one really give a crap aboot the DO/MD thing... and I work at CU health sciences center. This place is an allopathic residency, and it's littered with DO's as professors or assistant professors...

... come to think of it, maybe that's why University of Colorado Hospital sucks so bad.

Laugh it off everyone. It's a bunch of pre med/med's in here who have not seen the real world just yet.

Dude are you even reading my posts? Try reading them again. Then re-read your post. You will realize that you're reacting to a figment of your imagination. Your sarcasm is ridiculous. Nobody has mentioned board scores as the only way to measure a doctor. I've said it many many times that the only time I'd ever select an MD over a DO on purpose was if that was the only information I was given. Word of mouth, institutional backing, etc. is obviously more important. All I said is the one big difference between the two is that MD's on the whole are academically superior, and they prove it all over the board. Whether that always makes a better doctor is a whole different question. My personal opinion is that if I know nothing about the doctor, I'll go with the guy who probably did better on his tests all throughout his education, the MD. It's really simple. Get over it DO's. We're not flaming you. You're only making yourselves look really insecure by reacting this way to a very logical and neutral point that has been backed up by plenty of data. All I hear from DO's is a bunch of anecdotal evidence with absolutely no sources desperately trying to defend something that can't be defended. IT DOESNT MAKE YOU BAD DOCTORS. NOBODY SAID THAT. Work your ass off in school and I hope to work side by side with you someday.

 

[JohnnyOU]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

hahaha

sure

 

[Jack Daniel]

Osteopathic schools have ..... a lower usmle pass rate (not trying to start a flame or fling poo just reporting posted facts). My school has a ....90+ usmle pass rate with NBME shelfs above ave around rank of 70%(ave nationally is 50% of course)

Just keep in mind that DO students don't have to take the USMLE to be licensed physicians (primary care or specialists). They take the COMLEX--and DO students certainly have a high pass rate on that. Now, how comparable is the COMLEX to the USMLE? Well, that's another discussion. But it is possible for DO students to get into some MD residency programs with only COMLEX scores.

 

[SkylineMD]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

You can't possibly be all that annoyed KNOWING full well the consequences of starting a DO vs MD discussion. This is just as bad as when people bring up AA in medical school.

 

[DrMom]

You can't possibly be all that annoyed KNOWING full well the consequences of starting a DO vs MD discussion. This is just as bad as when people bring up AA in medical school.

Very true.


Just keep the discussion polite

 

[hyperbaric]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

Thanks for the compliment (I'm a TCOM student), but we have not outperformed UTSW nor Baylor with our class statistics. That said, our incoming stats (GPA and MCAT) and board scores fall right into the middle of the Texas pack.

 

[Junkster]

Dude are you even reading my posts? Try reading them again. Then re-read your post. You will realize that you're reacting to a figment of your imagination. Your sarcasm is ridiculous. Nobody has mentioned board scores as the only way to measure a doctor. I've said it many many times that the only time I'd ever select an MD over a DO on purpose was if that was the only information I was given. Word of mouth, institutional backing, etc. is obviously more important. All I said is the one big difference between the two is that MD's on the whole are academically superior, and they prove it all over the board. Whether that always makes a better doctor is a whole different question. My personal opinion is that if I know nothing about the doctor, I'll go with the guy who probably did better on his tests all throughout his education, the MD. It's really simple. Get over it DO's. We're not flaming you. You're only making yourselves look really insecure by reacting this way to a very logical and neutral point that has been backed up by plenty of data. All I hear from DO's is a bunch of anecdotal evidence with absolutely no sources desperately trying to defend something that can't be defended. IT DOESNT MAKE YOU BAD DOCTORS. NOBODY SAID THAT. Work your ass off in school and I hope to work side by side with you someday.

I was joking... I'm not taking this discussion seriously in any aspect whatsoever. It almost seems as though you are overreacting to a post that was made totally as a joke. I wasn't stating that you were making any sort of attack on the DO profession. If you read my post with an eye for exaggeration, you'll see that it's not a defensive position.

The choice of a physician is a personal choice, so I would have no problem with someone who decides to choose an MD over me in any situation.

hehehehe... sorry for my sarcasm if it was a bit over the top.

 

[Brickhouse]

Did someone already bring up the fact that we are heading into a physician shortage so it makes sense that they will have to start extending the range of acceptable criteria regardless if DO exists or not?

Sorry I'm too lazy to read the whole thread if this has already been brought up.

 

[chocomorsel]

Ok, The comments have finally pissed me off! I scored a 30 on the MCAT and have a 3.68 GPA. I chose DO because TCOM in Texas out scores All MD schools in texas including Baylor and Southwestern on the USMLE.. Yes on the MD boards.. I didn't get into TCOM but I did get into another DO school. So you arrogant MDs and MD students can have all your fun thinking you are superior when the fact is that patient satisfaction is higher with DOs and we have all the training that you have plus more. The reason DO MCATs are lower is because DO schools interview about 3 times as many people that MD schools interview. DO schools do this because they know that there may be a student with a 24 on the MCAT that will make a better doctor than some bookworm with no personality and a 33 on the mcat. You make me sick.

Amen, hallelluia!!!! Thank you for making this comment. I'm an MD student and these comments are pissing me off too. Especially some coming from people who haven't set foot in a medical school except to interview or do some shadowing. Seriously, some of y'all aren't as superior or as intelligent as you speak. It takes way more than booksmarts to make a good competent physician. Ever heard of people skills, or good judgement. To all who made those wonderful 30's and above on the MCAT, congratufriekinglations!!!!!!! And please, get a clue.

 

[Junkster]

Amen, hallelluia!!!! Thank you for making this comment. I'm an MD student and these comments are pissing me off too. Especially some coming from people who haven't set foot in a medical school except to interview or do some shadowing. Seriously, some of y'all aren't as superior or as intelligent as you speak. It takes way more than booksmarts to make a good competent physician. Ever heard of people skills, or good judgement. To all who made those wonderful 30's and above on the MCAT, congratufriekinglations!!!!!!! And please, get a clue.

I don't know if I can take someone seriously when they use the word "Y'all"...



This discussion is hilarious to follow.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I was joking... I'm not taking this discussion seriously in any aspect whatsoever. It almost seems as though you are overreacting to a post that was made totally as a joke. I wasn't stating that you were making any sort of attack on the DO profession. If you read my post with an eye for exaggeration, you'll see that it's not a defensive position.

The choice of a physician is a personal choice, so I would have no problem with someone who decides to choose an MD over me in any situation.

hehehehe... sorry for my sarcasm if it was a bit over the top.

It's all good. I misunderstood you. I think after reading this thread, and killing so much of my time on it today (BORING day at work)... I pretty much think all medical students suck. And I hate doctors too. I'm converting to Scientology. See ya suckers. Maybe I'll get to meet TomKat...

 

[chocomorsel]

I don't know if I can take someone seriously when they use the word "Y'all"...



This discussion is hilarious to follow.

Texas babe. Many of us say this. I know, I'm a stupid MD student. I'm probably in the bottom of my class. Should have gone to a DO school instead

 

[Junkster]

It's all good. I misunderstood you. I think after reading this thread, and killing so much of my time on it today (BORING day at work)... I pretty much think all medical students suck. And I hate doctors too. I'm converting to Scientology. See ya suckers. Maybe I'll get to meet TomKat...

No prob. Do harm, no foul.

It was truly a boring day at work for me as well. My projects are done, it's a four day weekend...

And I am the only one who believes that 85% of pre-med students are idiots/self-centered/humorless/socially inept/nerds/bed wetters/spoiled brats? That's how my undergrad pre-meds were.

I hope med school is a bit better.

 

[Junkster]

Texas babe. Many of us say this. I know, I'm a stupid MD student. I'm probably in the bottom of my class. Should have gone to a DO school instead

Damn Texans.

 

[Law2Doc]

And I am the only one who believes that 85% of pre-med students are idiots/self-centered/humorless/socially inept/nerds/bed wetters/spoiled brats? That's how my undergrad pre-meds were.

I hope med school is a bit better.

I'd say only about 60% wet their beds by the time they get to med school (thanks largely to the infusion of the older, housebroken nontrads). Otherwise it's about the same.

 

[Junkster]

I'd say only about 60% wet their beds by the time they get to med school (thanks largely to the infusion of the older, housebroken nontrads). Otherwise it's about the same.

That comment actually made me giggle out loud at work...

 

[ADDchild]

Another point is why do you care what we allopathics think. If you've made your decision then do it and do the best you can and 10 years from now you wont remember or care about this topic(maybe sooner if you have a memory as bad as mine) since most of the allopathic students posting/responding seem supportive.

 

[Doctor Bagel]

This does not seem to be a valid claim. Can you back it up?

I hope this is not another one of your "Texas no longer lets MD's from the caribbean practice..." jokes: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=3824747#post3824747

But if it is, it is funny

Here's the scoop on comparing MD and DO USMLE scores. DOs do not have to take the USMLE, so presumably the strongest students are the ones who take it. I think TCOM and OSU have something like a 100% board passage rate for the USMLE, and the allopathic state schools in Oklahoma and Texas do not have that. However, it's like comparing apples to oranges because 100% of the allopathic students take the USMLE, while a much smaller percentage of the DO students do.

I am sort of wondering why the OP is so p$ssed that this thread took this turn because it was a 100% predictable turn in the SDN world.

 

[DrMom]

Here's the scoop on comparing MD and DO USMLE scores. DOs do not have to take the USMLE, so presumably the strongest students are the ones who take it. I think TCOM and OSU have something like a 100% board passage rate for the USMLE, and the allopathic state schools in Oklahoma and Texas do not have that. However, it's like comparing apples to oranges because 100% of the allopathic students take the USMLE, while a much smaller percentage of the DO students do.

Can't speak to any other class/school situations, but I wanted to point out that my class had 100% pass rate on COMLEX & USMLE with over 1/2 the class taking the USMLE...including the very bottom person in the class. It really was a good mix of students across the board.

 

[CatsandCradles]

Damn Texans.

Speaking of Texans:

I remembered old Scriptural admonition, “it is more blessed to give than receive,” and immediately order we open fire; we gave them 4,200 rounds. The enemy regiment returned fire, a musket ball passed through the lapels of my vest, ripping my gloves I had there. Immediately another shot punched the back of my coat just above the buttons, making the entry and exist 6 inches. Had the Confederates known they were shooting at Osteopathy, perhaps they would not have been so careless. ~AT Still

All you Southerners can't aim



Sorry sorry i couldn't help it.






(Note: I live South of the Mason Dixon line and I goto a DO school that sits right where a Confederate army was trying to defend from a Union onslaught )

 

[Law2Doc]

...including the very bottom person in the class. It really was a good mix of students across the board.

That's pretty uncool that everyone knows who the very bottom person in class is. Most places try to keep this more private.

 

[DrMom]

That's pretty uncool that everyone knows who the very bottom person in class is. Most places try to keep this more private.

It wasn't something that was publicized in any formal or institutional way at all, it just wasn't something that this person tried to hide for whatever reason.

 

[TweetyPie]

Agreed.

I'll say what was being baited for in this thread: DO's for the most part are students who couldn't get into MD schools. There, ya happy? Sure, there are always exceptions. But, the admissions standards academically for DO schools are far below that of most MD programs. Thus, people who couldn't get into a US MD program very very often ask the question "Should I try DO or try overseas?".

Average MCAT scores for MD schools are near 30 and on an uptrend (29.6-29.9 from 1999-2004), whereas DO schools are between 24-25 and are decreasing every year (gone from 25.28-24.57 from 1999-2003). DO schools also turn a blind eye to classes that were re-taken. MD schools take an average. So, not only are the GPA's accepted to DO schools lower (3.4 vs. 3.6), but they are inflated. If someone flunked a class, retook it and got an A, that class would count as a 4.0 at the DO school, but a 2.0 at the MD school. Everyone wants to be PC and say they're all the same. Well, I'm not PC. DO schools are WAY easier to get into. The average DO acceptee wouldn't stand a chance at getting into an MD program in the US. Say they're the same all you want. People can talk themselves into anything. Data doesn't lie.

THAT SAID... The acceptance data has nothing to do with what is actually taught at the school. The typical DO student obviously had undergrad/MCAT struggles, but that may or may not affect how they end up as a doctor. We've all met the Harvard 4.0 Phi Beta Kappa M.D. genius who was the worst doctor you've ever met. There are exceptions everywhere. I've met some DO's that were great docs, and had a great reputation within the hospital I work at. I'm sure that for the most part, DO's are very competent docs... otherwise they'd all get sued and banned from practicing.

However, as someone who has a lot more knowledge about the selection process for DO's than the average layperson, I would personally ask for an MD to take care of me, unless I knew some specific information about the DO docs that were an option. I don't know if I would want someone who got an inflated 3.2GPA, a 19 on the MCAT, then retook it, studied their butt off and then still only got a 23, and then got accepted into a DO school because they brought their MCAT UP to a 23, taking care of me...

Nothing personal. Just honesty. You can't ignore the admissions data. It is a reality that people like to pretend doesn't exist to be peaceful and PC.
I hope every DO student out there becomes the best doc ever. We need more good doctors, and MD schools aren't the only place where they can come from.

http://www.medschoolready.com/app/gpaMCAT.asp

Just a little something you need to include into your mix….a foundational factor that you've excluded, which has given you a skewed view and prevented you from coming to accurate conclusion:

What is the minimum GPA, or score achieved on an MCAT, USMLE I, II, or III, where you can say this person is competent? Is it 38 MCAT? A 30 MCAT? Or, could it be a 24 MCAT? See, you can't produce a statistic for that. Therefore, your argument is incomplete.

The question is, how much intelligence does it take to be to be a competent doc? You have erroneously applied the "30" MCAT score as the standard. That 30 MCAT score is the current M.D. schools admission standard for competitiveness. Did that standard derive from a study showing that a score of 30 is what it takes to be competent? No. It is my view that historically med school admissions standards and what is considered top scores (35-40 range) have largely been a result of two things: (1) seek out the brightest the country has to offer, and (2), a variation based upon the particular applicants in any given year. But to my knowledge it has never been based upon a statistical score correlation to competency.

The MCAT's contents, the first and second year med school curriculum, and USMLE/COMLEX contents all represent a broad exposition of information. However, as one begins to move into their specialty (wards & residency), that information begins to narrow. So, it is wholly reasonable to believe that if we cannot come up with a specific number correlating to competency, then we cannot prove by other statistical data i.e. undergrad GPA, MCAT, board scores alone, that being treated by a doc who got a 30 MCAT vs. a 24 MCAT is "safer". Statements noting competent and outstanding D.O.'s and the fact that "….for the most part, DO's are very competent docs... otherwise they'd all get sued and banned from practicing" seem to support this.

Bottomline: With respect to academic performance, my view is that there is a significant disparity between what it actually takes to be a competent doc versus perceived notions to the contrary. The idea here is that, for all we know, maybe a 24 MCAT is all it takes to be a competent doc. And perhaps, that means that the margin, let's say, between a 24 and a 38 MCAT never comes into play in one's everyday practice of medicine. In my opinion, the lack of having a statistic for correlating competency with a precise score renders any argument moot, and a conclusion nearly impossible to achieve.

 

[Dr. Weebs]

Just a little something you need to include into your mix….a foundational factor that you've excluded, which has given you a skewed view and prevented you from coming to accurate conclusion:

What is the minimum GPA, or score achieved on an MCAT, USMLE I, II, or III, where you can say this person is competent? Is it 38 MCAT? A 30 MCAT? Or, could it be a 24 MCAT? See, you can't produce a statistic for that. Therefore, your argument is incomplete.

The question is, how much intelligence does it take to be to be a competent doc? You have erroneously applied the "30" MCAT score as the standard. That 30 MCAT score is the current M.D. schools admission standard for competitiveness. Did that standard derive from a study showing that a score of 30 is what it takes to be competent? No. It is my view that historically med school admissions standards and what is considered top scores (35-40 range) have largely been a result of two things: (1) seek out the brightest the country has to offer and, (2) a variation based upon the particular applicants in any given year. But to my knowledge it has never been based upon a statistical score correlation to competency.

The MCAT's contents, the first and second year med school curriculum, and USMLE/COMLEX contents all represent a broad exposition of information. However, as one begins to move into their specialty (wards & residency), that information begins to narrow. So, it is wholly reasonable to believe that if we cannot come up with a specific number correlating to competency, then we cannot prove by other statistical data i.e. undergrad GPA, MCAT, board scores alone, that being treated by a doc who got a 30 MCAT vs. a 24 MCAT is "safer". Statements noting competent and outstanding D.O.'s and the fact that "….for the most part, DO's are very competent docs... otherwise they'd all get sued and banned from practicing" seem to support this.

Bottomline: With respect to academic performance, my view is that there is a significant disparity between what it actually takes to be a competent doc versus perceived notions to the contrary. The idea here is that, for all we know, maybe a 24 MCAT is all it takes to be a competent doc. And perhaps, that means that the margin, let's say, between a 24 and a 38 MCAT never comes into play in one's everyday practice of medicine. In my opinion, the lack of having a statistic for correlating competency with a precise score renders any argument moot, and a conclusion nearly impossible to achieve.

Excellent post. I completely agree with you.

Still, with no other information available to me, I will pick the doc who got better grades and test scores throughout his life. Based on statistical averages, that heavily favors the MD, thus I'd pick the MD. It's silly to say that someone who has been an ace student their entire life, and got sweet scores on all the standardized tests doesn't have a leg up on the average guy next to them. Maybe they're both competent, but there are still levels of competence. Some docs are competent. Some docs are really good. The rest get sued and banned from practice. Like I said... with no other information, I'll take my chances on the ace student.

Very good post though. Well thought out, and very well said too. Too many posts in this thread that have absolutely no thought in them. I appreciate your input.

Alas, I'm done with work, and I really don't care about this thread. If DO's take over the world and end up being the super docs of the future... that's fine with me. I'm outta here.. hehe.

 

[tkim]

This is another good point. Except... don't DO's have their own slots for a lot of primary care DO residencies? If that is true (which I am only assuming it is... please correct me if I am wrong here), then how can you differentiate between the residencies of an MD and a DO? They're inherently different. The DO residency pool is drawing only from DO's... so... we're back to square one again. Do you see my point? I don't know if I'm stating this very well.

For example: I know it's easy to compare, say, Brigham and Women's Internal Medicine Residency with, some tiny community hospital in the middle of nowhere that fails to fill every single year. You could also compare the DO residency at a prestigious institution with one that is widely known as below average. But, how do you compare the average DO residency with the average MD residency? You have to be able to have some sort of standardized measure. Thus enter board scores.

That's my opinion... I'm open to discussion though, as I am, as you pointed out, inexperienced and merely entering medical school. I appreciate your input.

I'm a little confused now. You do know that DO's can match at allopathic residencies, right?

 

[2TIM4:7]

DO: "we have people skills, etc."

To the DO's: you're absolutely right; only you can have people skills

Well, my dad can beat up your dad!

 

[dreambig2night]

Just a little something you need to include into your mix….a foundational factor that you've excluded, which has given you a skewed view and prevented you from coming to accurate conclusion:

What is the minimum GPA, or score achieved on an MCAT, USMLE I, II, or III, where you can say this person is competent? Is it 38 MCAT? A 30 MCAT? Or, could it be a 24 MCAT? See, you can't produce a statistic for that. Therefore, your argument is incomplete.

The question is, how much intelligence does it take to be to be a competent doc? You have erroneously applied the "30" MCAT score as the standard. That 30 MCAT score is the current M.D. schools admission standard for competitiveness. Did that standard derive from a study showing that a score of 30 is what it takes to be competent? No. It is my view that historically med school admissions standards and what is considered top scores (35-40 range) have largely been a result of two things: (1) seek out the brightest the country has to offer, and (2), a variation based upon the particular applicants in any given year. But to my knowledge it has never been based upon a statistical score correlation to competency.

The MCAT's contents, the first and second year med school curriculum, and USMLE/COMLEX contents all represent a broad exposition of information. However, as one begins to move into their specialty (wards & residency), that information begins to narrow. So, it is wholly reasonable to believe that if we cannot come up with a specific number correlating to competency, then we cannot prove by other statistical data i.e. undergrad GPA, MCAT, board scores alone, that being treated by a doc who got a 30 MCAT vs. a 24 MCAT is "safer". Statements noting competent and outstanding D.O.'s and the fact that "….for the most part, DO's are very competent docs... otherwise they'd all get sued and banned from practicing" seem to support this.

Bottomline: With respect to academic performance, my view is that there is a significant disparity between what it actually takes to be a competent doc versus perceived notions to the contrary. The idea here is that, for all we know, maybe a 24 MCAT is all it takes to be a competent doc. And perhaps, that means that the margin, let's say, between a 24 and a 38 MCAT never comes into play in one's everyday practice of medicine. In my opinion, the lack of having a statistic for correlating competency with a precise score renders any argument moot, and a conclusion nearly impossible to achieve.

Whoa...Rocket Science!

did somebody mention strippers??

 

[SoHotRightNow]

I have much respect for DO's. I had a ruptured disc in my back that MD's tried to inject and drug when all it took was one visit to a DO...This guy spent 1 hour with me, discovered the cause (rather than just treat the symptoms) applied a little gentle OMM action and I was fine after a couple of months R&R. BUT, I am getting my MD as internationally, the degree opens many more doors. I know that in my home country, DO's are likened to the Naturopath crowd etc. So its MD for me...

 

[Doctor Bagel]

oh, and for the record, I flew into such a rage when exlawgrrrl didn't spell "optometrist" correctly that I killed three people while screaming misogynist insults. I am now writing this from jail. Well, a nice jail, one with free internet access, because I'm in one of those Democratic districts, with a nice Democratic judge who will let me off with time served hopefully. Anyway...

Perfectly rational response.

I've got to admit I also really appreciate how Mr. previous jerk poster didn't spell b&tch. That makes it so much more appropriate and less insulting.

 

[MD2b20004]

To me MD=DO=(Carrib/Foriegn MD with US residency). Its all the same whether its Harvard or some no name school in china, there is no easy way of getting your DOCTOR title, and regardless of your title or where you went to med school in all depends on your clinical training and how you can provide for a patient and there is a lot of check and balances to make sure that physicians are competent regardless of the school or title, there is boards, more boards, CEs, and how many at fault malpractice suits you get after you finished. Personally, if I am in a coma in the ER, i really dont got the health, time or desire, to ask the attending if he/she is a DO or MD or what school they went to or what their GPA was, I just want to get better and be out.

 

[allendo]

Excellent post. I completely agree with you.

Still, with no other information available to me, I will pick the doc who got better grades and test scores throughout his life. Based on statistical averages, that heavily favors the MD, thus I'd pick the MD. It's silly to say that someone who has been an ace student their entire life, and got sweet scores on all the standardized tests doesn't have a leg up on the average guy next to them. Maybe they're both competent, but there are still levels of competence. Some docs are competent. Some docs are really good. The rest get sued and banned from practice. Like I said... with no other information, I'll take my chances on the ace student.

Very good post though. Well thought out, and very well said too. Too many posts in this thread that have absolutely no thought in them. I appreciate your input.

Alas, I'm done with work, and I really don't care about this thread. If DO's take over the world and end up being the super docs of the future... that's fine with me. I'm outta here.. hehe.

I can see it now you get paged to the ER to see a patient on their death bed. You enter the room and the patient says "Hold on let you see your undergraduate transcripts, MCAT, Med School transcripts, and board scores"

 

[jason3278]

I have a friend who's at an MD school. He got in with a 24. He was rejected by a DO school. Do you want me to scratch him from the list of physicians you would allow to practice on you?

It's not a generalization. It's reality. It's hard statistical data. Data has no opinion. Data doesn't think, it doesn't have emotion, it just shows the facts. The average MCAT score for DO students is around 24. Show me any MD program where that's even remotely competitive. It's not the exception that DO students wouldn't stand a chance at getting into MD programs, it's the majority. If you were accepted to an MD program and chose DO for the philosophy or the location, then you are an exception. PC.. PC.. PC... anecdotal evidence... conjecture... bla bla bla.

Again, I will re-iterate. I'm know DO students make competent docs, some of them great docs. I do not look down upon them. If I met a DO student, I would be happy to meet another MEDICAL student because that's what we both are at the core. If I had to be taken care of by a DO that would be fine. However, if I had my choice, knowing nothing but the degrees, I would choose an MD. If that makes me an ignorant generalizer... fine. But, it is never anything personal, and there is very sound reasoning behind my choice. It is nothing inherently against DO's!!! If DO's were the ones who were gettin' 33 MCATs, acing undergrad, getting above average USMLE scores, and the MD's were getting in with average scores and grades, then I'd want the DO's to be taking care of my life when I'm in peril. When it comes to my life, my health, my well-being... give me the smartest guy I can get who isn't rude. It's pretty basic.

Lastly, I do not really understand this thread or its reactions.

A DO student asked "What do MD's think of DO's?", and then people can't stand hearing an honest, statistically backed, scientifically sound (the correlation between MCAT and Board scores) answer.

This is not a flame war. This is not about MD's trying to prove their superiority. A DO student brought this up, and they got what they asked for.

Why would a DO ask that question in the first place? Perhaps, because it is widely known that there is a large dyscrepency in academic performance prior to medical school between MD's and DO's. And I don't want to hear the line about.. "Well it's just the MCAT and GPA". The reason the MCAT is such an important grader of applicants because it has a very good correlation with board scores. So, it's safe to say that when you take a large sample of people who got 24's on their MCAT, and a large sample of people who got 30's, had them take the exact same boards (I make the point of same board because DO's can take a different board exam too)... the group who got 30's would score about the same amount above on the boards. At what point do people have to be held ACCOUNTABLE for their intellectual capabilities as a professional? Not to mention a professional being paid a LOT of money to take care of people's LIVES. Apparently never, because according to some people grades and test scores mean nothing. Why even have standardized tests at all? Everyone can be a winner!!! Why do you think competitive residency's take people with higher board scores? Maybe because they have proven themselves to be really sharp and competent... What a concept? We need some way to standardize how capable professionals are... Unfortunately, the current method is using the MCAT and USMLE. What is so hard to understand about that?

 

[Dr. Weebs]

I have a friend who's at an MD school. He got in with a 24. He was rejected by a DO school. Do you want me to scratch him from the list of physicians you would allow to practice on you?

Yep. Thanks for the advanced warning.

That's all you could come up with to post in this thread? Scratch yourself off the list too.

/Ignore.