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New SDN Article! Giving and Receiving Feedback
His/her stats will get him interviews at many reputable places but the programs he/she is aiming for are the most competitive ones. It'd be extremely hard for an applicant from a no-name MD school to match there, much less a DO one. However, it doesn't hurt to try. I'd love to be proven wrong.>250 USMLE? You're golden
Get excellent LORs
I remember reading threads like this in the past about what it takes to match at most top ACGME IM programs. For matching in general, people say it is about getting top USMLE scores, doing well on rotations, and research. This is true for the most part. However, once you get to places like these you are under the magnifying glass. So those "not so important" things become important because everyone is amazing. For instance, the school you went to now becomes a strong factor as well as whether you are an osteopathic student or allopathic. Every small thing starts to add up.>250 USMLE? You're golden
Get excellent LORs
I think the notion of "school name" importance for USMD applicants in the match is exaggerated.
IMO...top MD > no name MD >>> DO > IMG.
This thread reminded me of a very similar thread asked in IM sub-forum.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/d-o-student-competitive-for-top-ranked-program-with-good-usmle-comlex-step-1.1102639/
To anyone who is wondering about IM programs ranking, here is the results (even though it was from 2010, the ranking shouldn't fluctuate that much) from SDN:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-final-top-30-im-programs-list-for-posteritys-sake.705041
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/preempting-the-inevitible-rankings-thread.751250/
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OP, MGH and Columbia are among the elite list of the top tier. I'd love to hear that you match there or any of the top 10, but it won't happen, so don't be upset if they reject you or ignore your application. I heard NYU is anti-DO. Mt sinai will be a long shot. Idk anything of New York Presbyterian.
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You should look at last cycle match and see where you have the most realistic chance at. I recommend posts #5, #13, #46, #51, #71, and #143 (no USMLE score).
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2015-im-match-results.1126256/
Post #55 and #75 from 2014 cycle
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2014-im-match-results.1061396/page-2
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/d-o-student-competitive-for-top-ranked-program-with-good-usmle-comlex-step-1.1102639/
To anyone who is wondering about IM programs ranking, here is the results (even though it was from 2010, the ranking shouldn't fluctuate that much) from SDN:
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/a-final-top-30-im-programs-list-for-posteritys-sake.705041
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/preempting-the-inevitible-rankings-thread.751250/
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OP, MGH and Columbia are among the elite list of the top tier. I'd love to hear that you match there or any of the top 10, but it won't happen, so don't be upset if they reject you or ignore your application. I heard NYU is anti-DO. Mt sinai will be a long shot. Idk anything of New York Presbyterian.
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You should look at last cycle match and see where you have the most realistic chance at. I recommend posts #5, #13, #46, #51, #71, and #143 (no USMLE score).
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2015-im-match-results.1126256/
Post #55 and #75 from 2014 cycle
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/official-2014-im-match-results.1061396/page-2
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Nope nope nope.
I wish I had that octopus meme to post here...
Those NY programs are notoriously DO unfriendly. Who wants to residency in NY anyways? I got better things to do with my than blood draws and transporting patients.
You won't match at the top 5 academic programs in nyc (the ones you mentioned plus monte) or the 5 academic programs in boston as a DO (the one you mentioned plus BI, Brigham, BU, tufts). Sorry, but that's just the reality of the situation. Those places have plenty of very qualified US MD applicants so they don't consider DOs. Of course you're more than welcome to apply. You won't get interviews from those places though so make sure you have actual realistic options on your list. In nyc the best you can do will be community programs and SUNY downstate (proceed with caution). If you're willing to go a bit outside of nyc look into the academic programs in NJ and long Island (stony brook and lij).
DO at an upper-middle tier IM program here.
About the best programs you have a legit shot at are OHSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Dartmouth (I think they matched a couple DOs within the last 5 years), Ohio State, possibly UVa, possibly Mayo (I believe they matched some DOs recently), and others. (Anyone else is free to chime in.)
Brigham, UCSF, MGH, Columbia, Cornell, JHH, etc are notgonnahappen.com. Sorry to burst your bubble. You will still match well elsewhere and receive excellent training.
About the best programs you have a legit shot at are OHSU, Wisconsin, Iowa, Minnesota, Dartmouth (I think they matched a couple DOs within the last 5 years), Ohio State, possibly UVa, possibly Mayo (I believe they matched some DOs recently), and others. (Anyone else is free to chime in.)
Brigham, UCSF, MGH, Columbia, Cornell, JHH, etc are notgonnahappen.com. Sorry to burst your bubble. You will still match well elsewhere and receive excellent training.
It's just sad how often the bro posts on DO relevant topics. Maybe it's just me but if I was an IM resident I would have a list of 34342 other things I'd rather do when I'm not working than post the same **** over and over and over....
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Thanks for the replies. I figured the DO bias was pretty large at those programs. I will definitely still apply when it comes time for that and if I do match of these programs I will let you guys know.
I peruse the DO forums and respond to threads like this one because know-nothing members with no real experience say things like this with way too much confidence:
Luckily your colleagues are doing their best to subdue your temper tantrum in that thread.
Rather than be rude to those with actual experience you should probably be thankful that we take the time to do this.
Does "no DOs" at the top programs listed, apply to other fields as well?
Any chance for a DO to get in to a high tier in psych, gas, pmr for example?
Any chance for a DO to get in to a high tier in psych, gas, pmr for example?
High tier PMR and Pscyhiatry is reachable as a DO.
Gastroenterology? You have to first train in Internal Medicine then apply for a Gastro fellowship.
I would also suggest you think about ten years down the road. Boston? SF? NYC? What sort of job market there for an IM sub specialty person? In anything? Consider this situation a blessing.
When you consider the higher debts of students with the lower reimbursements (which means lower incomes) the ability to live in those cities becomes less of a reality anyway, unless you want to pay rent and live in a tiny apartment for the rest of your life. You are better off being an Investment Banker in those towns than a Doctor.
Gas = anesthesia (not GI) which is also very much within reach at the places mentioned by OP.
This is a bad way to think about it and pure rationalizing. You aren't tied to the location in any way if you do residency there. You still have to go through another match and coming from a top program makes you competitive everywhere.
Still waiting on one example bud.
you peruse the DO forums because you are a dildo with an inferiority complex. When you talk about "know nothing-members with zero experience"..... You realize that you are that person right? What experience do you have with DO residency programs? Ill help you out, its zero. How about your experience with DO program directors? Also zero. How about the ability of programs to meet requirements? Also zero. You are a human contradiction, and everyone wishes you would just stick to your own forum.
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MeatTornado - I hear you but, as someone who has been to this rodeo ...
1) what makes the IM specialty match difficult is the travel etc. Specific residency, as long as a decent university program is all you need. The differences in IM programs while real, aren't that great. I would argue residency at a place with low COL trumps any prestige in Bay Area etc
2) It is much, much easier to make an informed choice about jobs if you do your fellowship where you want to live.
Now that the conversation has shifted into the realm of reality in threads like that one I no longer feel compelled to post there. I'd just like to point out that I predicted this would happen months ago even when others were taking the "nothing to see here everything will be fine" stance.
Here's some general life advice: when multiple people who are more senior and more experienced tell you that you're wrong it's time to SHUT UP!
Now pipe down the grownups are talking...
As someone who's currently in this rodeo…
1) While I agree with the first three sentences I definitely disagree with the last. People don't flock to the bay area, nyc, boston only for prestige (though there's plenty of that to go around). They are awesome cities and great places to live when you're young and single. Priorities of residency applicants vary widely and I for one certainly don't subscribe to choosing a place to train based on COL.
2) another true statement but your initial statement was trying to link residency location with job market. At the same time from what I've seen at my program and on the trail it's definitely possible to move around after fellowship, even if you stay in academic medicine.
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- Jul 12, 2008
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I have no horse in this race, but the fact that I've just read two posts from you in quick succession specifically mentioning program directors tells me that you don't know as much about how residencies are run as you think you do. I'd wager that you're not even a resident yet, as even interns by this point would realize that PDs have bosses and are not making unilateral decisions about things as big as accreditation. (At first I thought maybe my lack of AOA knowledge is showing, but quickly perusing a few AOA residency sites tells me that yes, GME directors exist at those programs too.) Things like using the incorrect terms makes it seem like you don't have the baseline knowledge to inform your opinions. Being so rude when challenged doesn't help your case either.
So your response is that PDs have bosses. Good point, I guess they will all just shut down then.
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My point is that if you were as knowledgeable as you think you are, you wouldn't keep throwing around the term "program director" when you talk about deciding to apply for accreditation. I have no opinions on which programs will or won't apply, but I know that PDs aren't the ones who decide. You apparently don't know that.
Edit: Ignorance is okay, since these forums are supposed to be a place where people can educate themselves about all aspects of medicine. But your breed of ignorance -particularly refusing to acknowledge what you don't know, resorting to sarcasm and rudeness when it's pointed out- is really unbecoming.
I'll be blunt: I think people who do this (flock to big $$$$ cities as residents or even young attendings) are foolish. I think living in residency-subsidized housing in NYC or Newark because your pittance of a resident's salary can't pay for decent housing sucks. I knew a ton of people who matched out of my school to NYC programs and had to do things like live in apartments in borderline ghetto neighborhoods of Jersey City with 3 other people while riding the train for an hour each way to make it work. If you don't think this blows, there's something wrong with you.
Meanwhile, I pay less per month in my (nice) Midwest city for a two bedroom, two story condo than I paid for a ****ty 1 bedroom den apartment in NJ. Quality of life is just a little bit important if you don't want to totally hate yourself during residency, and cost of living is a really big part of that. I think the city dwellers don't realize how awful it actually is because they walk around with stars in their eyes ('ZOMG I live in NYC!!!! Oh boy!). It's not like there aren't plenty of young, single, hip people outside of NYC, LA and Chicago either - the young professional scene in this city is thriving.
This is what I was trying to say in more subtle fashion. And if you stay for fellowship, the job market in these places is bad -- your payoff for all this bs
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As I said a very valid and logical way to look at it but different strokes for different folks.
The alternative way to look at it is that this is the time to live in these awesome places with terrible job markets since your salary is standardized (in fact u make 15-20k more in these locations) and you don't have to worry about school districts etc etc. I live very comfortably in one of the aforementioned cities and it's an awesome place to live and train.
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OK, I'm going to take the knife out now...I suspect that the meat torpedo is one of those self-hating DOs who bitterly resents the fact that he couldn't get into an MD school. How else does one explain the constant desire to piss all over the profession?
When it comes to listening to someone about where DO grads can and can't go, I'll listen to @SouthernSurgeon. He can post realism without venom.
I agree with slim's post above, the top programs may be always hard to crack because they're, well, the top. That's hard for anybody. But of my own students (and those from other schools) who are getting into ACGME IM programs, I've noticed that the "glass ceiling" is developing some cracks in it. Time will tell.
When it comes to listening to someone about where DO grads can and can't go, I'll listen to @SouthernSurgeon. He can post realism without venom.
I agree with slim's post above, the top programs may be always hard to crack because they're, well, the top. That's hard for anybody. But of my own students (and those from other schools) who are getting into ACGME IM programs, I've noticed that the "glass ceiling" is developing some cracks in it. Time will tell.
Srsly? If so, he's been pretending he got into Stony Brook since 2009. That's dedication!
MeatTornado tells it like it is. There's so much misinformation and blind leading the blind, somebody has to do it. MeatTornado is similarly blunt in the IM forums where he informs people of the truth that internal medicine is a competitive field these days.
I do not understand hipster culture at all. You got these sheltered suburban brats who venture out into big cities and think they are "cool", mostly they are living on their parent's dime.
I don't understand everyone's obsession with cracking the top 25 glass ceiling. Once you're at a major university program, you're going to match in pretty much whichever field in IM that you wish to pursue if you're a good resident, it just likely won't be at a top 10 because those people are a different breed of snob. I'd argue that going to a mid tier (like I am) in a non major city is a better idea. My hospital has a catchment area that's about 100x100 miles and includes 3-4million people, we are the referral center for several level 1s in our area. You just can't get that type of training in a big city where you share patients between several programs with big egos, depending on the specialty... and you have to take loans just to live in squallor.
Its all in people's heads, many people think DOs deserve to be at Mass General.
oh look someone took my advice from the other thread and actually looked through my post history instead of saying dumb garbage like the following:
@SouthernSurgeon is a great resource but at the end of the day he's.... a surgeon. OP asked about IM... my field. I'm assuming he would defer to me in this case as I would defer to him when talking about any surgical field because, as I'm sure you're not aware because you don't know anything beyond the preclinical years, competitiveness varies widely between different fields even at the same institution.
I don't come to pre-osteo contradicting you about an area where you have experience (med school applications) so why do you find it appropriate to contradict the advice of a senior resident who has gone through the ACGME residency application process with regards to something you very frankly know absolutely nothing about?
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I get this uncomfortable feeling listening to DOs not understand the disadvantage that they (we) have with matching. I have felt it before. A nuanced, irking feeling. One that stings when seeing others ignore logic, reason, critical thinking but not without a with a nice overlay of inferiority complex. Ah yes. Now I recall. Anti-vaxxers.
I've been told again and again, that the DO bias is real and can be overcome with rarity and phenomenal board scores and application. I believe that is largely true. However, believing that you're going to be the one that gets that most coveted of residencies in that most coveted of specialty as a DO is insane. It's pretty insane if you're not at a top 20 MD school from what I understand. And even then it takes an impressive application.
If the reason you got into medicine was to do a NS rotation at Hopkins (or wherever the hell the top NS program is) prepare to be disappointed. However, rejoice in the fact that so long as you are US trained, you WILL get to heal the sick in the good ol U S of A.
There's a difference between bluntness (like how SouthernS delivers news,...direct and to the point, no sugar coating, and which is why I like him) and the Ann Coulter/Michelle Malkin-esque bile and venom that he Meat torpedo delivers his.
Look, we know people don't come here for hugs and kisses, but for realistic advice. And we know that there are venues that are 100% closed to DO grads...but the delivery of the info can be handled in a less toxic manner, especially not one that pisses all over your colleagues.
I'll also point out that glass ceilings can crack; I've seen it happen with my own grads....and I'm not one for the "rah rah you can do it" mentality.
Look, we know people don't come here for hugs and kisses, but for realistic advice. And we know that there are venues that are 100% closed to DO grads...but the delivery of the info can be handled in a less toxic manner, especially not one that pisses all over your colleagues.
I'll also point out that glass ceilings can crack; I've seen it happen with my own grads....and I'm not one for the "rah rah you can do it" mentality.
Hah. I'm an internet sleuth what can I say.
oh look someone took my advice from the other thread and actually looked through my post history instead of saying dumb garbage like the following:
I think people just exaggerate the tone of blunt internet posts. All you have is text to go on, so it's easy to interpret blunt posts as caustic if you have an a priori assumption that someone is rude. I bet if you were having an actual conversation with MeatTornado, his remarks would not come off as offensive in tone. If his avatar was Leslie Knope instead of Ron Swanson you may also subconsciously view his posts as less mean.
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What exactly qualifies as one of these university programs that will give somebody decent sub specialty opportunities? Loma Linda? Arizona? Missouri? NJMS? USF? I am still kind of a novice, but I was curious.