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What have I done??

Discussion in 'Medical Students - MD' started by sometime07, Aug 9, 2006.

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  1. sometime07

    sometime07 Member
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    OK, I know that I'm going to get a lot of flak for this, but I really need some advice.

    I'm a student soon to graduate from a NYC-area medical school. On a recent rotation, my very cool team went out for drinks after a particularly depressing day. (Don't worry, no one there was on call, that's not the ethical dilemma!) Gradually, as the night went on and we got drunker and drunker, the group started to slowly dissipate. Eventually, only me and my attending were left at the bar. Now, the attending is probably the most desired woman in the hospital...tall, beautiful, hilarious sense of humor and great personality. Nearly every male patient has semi-jokingly said that they'll try to get admitted again, or that they won't leave the hospital until she goes with them. She's single, and quite unobtainable.

    Anyway, we were the only ones from the team left at the bar, and we were quite blasted. At work, she dresses very professionally, but that night, she was dressed like a sexy college girl. We were flirting like mad and dancing until it was too late to stay. Since we live somewhat near each other, we shared a cab back to our neighborhood. Well, in the cab the flirting took a physical turn and we started making out. The cab got to her apartment first, and she insisted that I come upstairs. I wasn't going to argue. You can imagine what happened next.

    When we woke up, we were surprised to find that neither of us was very embarrassed about our drunken behavior, and we went at it again. She was going to a conference the next day, so we didn't see each other for a few days. We both assumed that it was a quick fling, and it was over. But when she got back, we were constantly sneaking off "to radiology" or the call room, or to her or my place after work. It was intense. The forbiddenness of the relationship took it to a whole other level. :love:

    Of course, as you can imagine, eventually this had to end. After several weeks, she started to get a little demanding with me, and we started to grow cold. Another girl I was interested in had recently come back on the market after breaking up with her long-time boyfriend, and she was making moves on me. So, the atttending and I broke it off calmly. Or so I thought.

    Several weeks later, when I was on a different rotation, I got an email from the Dean's office that I should come in for a talk. I was never so nervous in my life. I get there, and he asks me how I thought I did on the previous rotations. I honestly said I did great, my patients loved me, I learned a lot, I was always eager to do some scut work, etc, etc. He said that he had gotten a letter from my former attending (which I did NOT solicit) which basically said I was a horrible student, constanty shirking my responsibilities, with no drive, and lack of respect for his superiors. :eek:
    This was all TOTALLY FALSE!!! Clearly, she was pissed off about me wanting to end the fling, and this is how she took it out on me! I HAD NO IDEA she was this vengeful! I thought we broke it off calmly!

    So, now I am in a bind. Do I shut my mouth and let this horrible letter remain in my file, potentially ruining my chances of a decent residency? Or do I spill my guts to the dean and tell him about my highly unethical affair with my superior? Even if I do, who's to say he'll believe me?? What if she denies the whole thing? Then I'll look like a terrible student AND a liar!!

    I really don't know what to do anymore, and I'm desperate for some advice!! HELP!! :scared:
     
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  3. Dr.TobiasFünke

    Physician 7+ Year Member

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    i would have stayed with her until after the eval was in...
     
  4. mzeroapplicant

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  5. njbmd

    njbmd Guest
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    Hi there,
    You have learned your lesson the hard way and now you are suffering the consequences of your bad decision-making. If your common sense totally leaves you after a drink or two, then avoid alcohol in the future at all costs especially in professional situations. What is it about getting drunk and sexually involved with an attending physician while you are a medical student don't you understand?

    You can do your best in the time you have left and make sure that this is the last poor letter that you get. If this is the only poor evaluation that you get, it is like to be dismissed anyway. You have no idea of what this attending said to the Dean that prompted you being called into the office. Possible scenarios: She may be worried that you will bring sexual harrassment charges against her so she took the offense first. The Dean may have followed up this letter with a phone call where she could have said anything. Someone might have seen the two of you and reported you and her so she is on the offense. In short, the Dean was on a fishing expedition so keep everything that you do from here on out, above board and very professional.

    You can put this event behind you and never NEVER make this mistake again. You can make sure that every dealing that you have with this attending is public and very professional.

    One bad letter does not tank a career or threaten a residency. Make sure that you have letters from other attendings on that rotation that emphasize your good work. You can be sure that if this attending behaved like this with you, she has done so with others. Keep your clinical performance high in every rotation from here on out and DO NOT allow yourself be in proximity with this person especially if you are with your new girlfriend. Be happy that you are getting ready to graduate and keep your mouth shut unless specifically asked specific questions by the Dean. Matching in a residency away from your medical school would also be a good idea too.

    Good luck!
    njbmd :)
     
  6. YouDontKnowJack

    YouDontKnowJack I no something you don't
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    was the sex good?

    what are you gonna title your new novel?
     
  7. MasterShake

    MasterShake Member's Only Member
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    I read this in Penthouse Letters (I mean a friend did :D ) and if I am not mistaken the letter was used as blackmail to get more sex. Just start hooking up with the attending again until she writes you a good letter. At least thats how I would write the ending to this story.
     
  8. sometime07

    sometime07 Member
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    Thank you very much for the quality advice. I know it was stupid, unethical, and unprofessional of me, but sometimes you get led around by your other head, you know? Like you said, now I'm suffering the consequences.

    I think you may be right about the Dean...who knows how much he knows? Assuming he knows nothing but the bad evaluation, when it comes time to draft a letter to residency programs, he'll presumably ignore this one if all the others are good (and so far, they all are).

    Luckily, the attending is not in any department that I will have a career in, so I hope that will keep some distance between us.

    Again, thanks.

    I'm not sure what you're getting at...are you implying that this is made up? Alright, believe whatever you want. I really don't need your virtual high-fives, and I didn't post this to gloat. I regret the whole thing and wish it never happened. I posted this to get some good advice (and prevent others from making this mistake), and I thank njbmd for it.
     
  9. MD-To Be

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    WOW! What a story. Best advice, turn her in. You did nothing wrong by copulating with her but she did do something wrong by giving you a poor review by with holding the goods. Hope it works out.
     
  10. BozoSparky

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    Hey, she should be nervous about this, too (like you, she could have had better judgement...). Your going to the dean cannot be a good thing for her rep.
     
  11. sometime07

    sometime07 Member
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    I hear you, but I definitely broke several codes of conduct by having a relationship with her. I'm not interested in taking her down with me, if it means I go down too. It's my career I care about, not hers.
     
  12. Callogician

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    I contend that the opening post is almost certainly false. Here are my arguments:

    1) The scenario itself is unlikely. A situation involving a man in a position of submission and a woman in a position in power is not conducive to a sexual relationship due to perceived cultural gender roles. Women tend to date older men in positions of power.

    2) The attending physician's behavior is unlikely. Why would an adult professional woman act so childishly (by getting revenge after a tryst)? That is something teenage women do. You are displacing a well known cultural meme onto the wrong agent.

    3) If you were truly anxious and posting in a desperate plea for help, it is unlikely that you would post in such a flowing and entertaining style. The story is too perfect. If you were typing impromptu, you would have revealed the conflict immediately and then explained the background instead of writing the story in a beautifully classic format where the first sign of conflict appears late. The whole thing seems contrived, not explained.

    4) The details you emphasize contradict the putative goal of the thread. If you really wanted advice, why would you write so colorfully of the dynamics of the relationship and so tersely about the deterioration? What do you mean when you say that she grew "demanding" and "cold?" Where is the concrete example or quotation? Don't you want to reader to understand the social context of the retaliation? The nasty letter comes off as more of a red herring than a central theme.

    5) "...are you implying that this is made up?" If you had a modicum of intelligence (which you obviously do), you would have realized that your post would be flamed in advance. That the challenges leave you genuinely incredulous and naive (as the quote suggests) is ludicrous.
     
  13. SeventhSon

    SeventhSon SIMMER DOWN
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    um, why hasn't anyone suggested that you go in, talk to her, and ask her for specific incidents that prompted the comments that she made in the letter? If you are very frank about this, and you really did do a good rotation, I think she will grow up.
     
  14. dbhvt

    dbhvt Senior Member
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    Because that would be a bad idea. This is not Callogician's highschool girlfriend. It seems like a fairly calculated political move to me. It would be best to stay far away, in my opinion.
     
  15. YouDontKnowJack

    YouDontKnowJack I no something you don't
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    this sounds like the next episode of Grey's anatomy.


    but hey, if she's hot and horny, I'd bang her too.
     
  16. bornguitar

    bornguitar Member
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    You could always sell the rights to this story to the producers of Grey's Anatomy. I am sure they would pay millions for this sort of medical mischief. ;)
     
  17. chaldobruin

    chaldobruin Member
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    Wow, excellent post, I completely agree with all of your arguments, ESPECIALLY #1. The chances are extremely slim that an older woman in that position would first of all commit such an act, and then get attached/upset/childish when you break it off? Sounds like an episode of Grey's Anatomy. The only way a woman of the type you describe would do that is if you are extremely, and I mean extremely, good-looking and charming.
     
  18. ChuckRock

    ChuckRock Senior Member
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    lol, my FIRST thought
     
  19. ChuckRock

    ChuckRock Senior Member
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    wow Callogician, I usually think you are a complete d*** or 100% on point with your posts, and I definitly feel you nailed this one.
     
  20. lattimer13

    lattimer13 good boy!
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    i somewhat disagree. while in retrospect it may have been bad decision making on the OP's part, it was definitely the responsibility of the attending for what ultimately went down. she had the power and sounded like she knew it. just my interpretation of the above though.

    while i don't quite believe the story, it was entertaining and i'll give the OP or whoever he got the story from props. definitely agree w/ sending that one to penthouse...or better yet club or hustler and they could do a photo shoot for the added effect.
     
  21. casi

    casi Junior Member
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    I think they've already used that plot several times. :laugh:
     
  22. Blake

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    This is an understatement. Callogician seems like one smart cookie :laugh:
     
  23. Miami_med

    Miami_med Moving Far Away
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    Um, if this is a true story, don't you think that someone might recognize you on this very public board? I mean, you've even got it narrowed down to NYC. This incident is described in great detail.
     
  24. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    I'm not buying this post based primarilly on this paragraph. If she was really f-ing you over you wouldn't still be describing her in such a flattering way. Also it's far more likely that one would end up with a more average looking gal, rather than one who is "the most desired woman in the hospital". This only happens in one's imagination. If you described her as merely "cute", or if it was just the beer goggles talking and making her seem like the most desirable, then it would be more likely.
    But it was well written -- I agree -- send it off to Penthouse for advice.
     
  25. Hard24Get

    Hard24Get The black sleepymed
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    I don't know about that. Sometimes women in power just want to show that they, too, can use their position for sexual gratification. Attendings usually don't have to worry about sleeping their way to the top. For this reason, I think arguments 2-5 are more compelling. Also, Law2Doc's point that he describes her as the most desirable and uses :love: with someone who snowed him.

    Entertaining, but I would have liked it better if he had tried to kiss her and got slapped (talk about not respecting your superiors!), which seems a more realistic outcome! :laugh:
     
  26. tupac_don

    tupac_don Senior Member
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    Are you kidding me? I would just keep my mouth shut, and go talk directly to that attending and ask her staright up why she did what she did. As far as spilling your guts to the dean, don't be such a douchebag. You are no better than her, and vengeful as H#ll. You got some great se# out of it, take it what it is and move on. What it looks like is that you probably scorned her pretty bad. And you know what they say hell hath no fury like a woman scorned. I wouldn't escalate this, talk to her, and see what gives, then move on and put all this behind you, whatever the case. But dont' be taddle tale, that just ain't right. You are an adult, if you were so worried about her ethical behavior, and your grade you shouldn't have gotten involved with her, now it's your tree, sit in it. Not trying to be harsh, but you put this upon yourself, you knew the pitfalls of sleeping with your superior, yet you went down that road. Don't play with the bull if you are not prepared to get some horns :cool:
     
  27. tupac_don

    tupac_don Senior Member
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    \

    It's possible, women get horny too. On the note, that teenage women get vengeful, I dont' think you know women very much, any woman can get vengeful at any time. Don't underestimate that, despite what their professional title is. Plus if she was that mature, she wouldn't have slept with someone under her control, but I digress.
     
  28. ghip

    ghip Member
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    See tupac's post. True, more often this kind of thing has the genders flipped, but the scenario and aftermath are not that unlikely. Some women like the position of power, some men like powerful women. We know powerful single professional women exist. Who do you think they are going to sleep with?


    Also not suprising. People and emotions are complex. If the story is true, the OP is conflicted. Though upset about the possible impact on his career, he's still pretty proud of the hookup. It's not suprising that he would write a post emphasizing the things that make it 'impressive', and downplay the ugly side of it. Writing about it, he is reliving the experience a little. It's more fun to write about the fun exciting sexy part that reminds him that he's a big stud, less fun to write about the the unhappy uncomfortable part that reminds him that he's a big idiot.

    If true, he has a dual agenda in posting. 1) show off/cause a stir here on SDN. 2) actually get some advice while remaining anonymous.


    This means nothing in terms of the validity of the story. If you think noone is going to believe your story, you either say that up front or decide to play dumb. The OP playing dumb about how incredible his story is doesn't say anything other than which tactic he chose.
     
  29. YouDontKnowJack

    YouDontKnowJack I no something you don't
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    i agree.

    have some makeup sex too. and then blast your load in her face
     
  30. jocg27

    jocg27 Senior Member
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    I can't help but agree with njbmd..... Move on, do your best from here on out, and avoid any possibility of it happening again with her or anyone. Unfortunately you made a decision with some bad consequences...You can recover, but hopefully you've been an all star up to this point and will have to be even more so from here on out.

    Like tupac said, going and telling the dean everything is just being a tool...it's not likely to help you out much and may destroy her...It's vengeful and will likely just screw both of you over.

    I disagree about going to her though. I don't see what benefit could possibly come of that, either. The letter is in...Even if you two can rationally, reasonably discuss it, come to terms with each other, and live happily ever after (which is very unlikely anyway - I disagree with collogician, women of all ages and any position of power can be neurotic, immature and vengeful - men too!), the damage is done...I'm not sure there's much she could do to help you now even if she wanted to. Such a scathing letter followed by a complete withdrawal would be likely to raise even more red flags for the dean.
     
  31. njbmd

    njbmd Guest
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    Hi there,
    Here are the problems with confronting the attending: 1. This attending has already demonstrated poor judgement by writing a letter that did not accurately describe the performance of the OP in the rotation after engaging in an unethical act. What makes anyone believe that this is a fair and rational person that would rescend the letter to the dean? 2. This attending may be on probation in terms of other unethical acts or cases of sexual harassment. To retract that letter would leave her very open to a sexual harassment charge and the medical school open to lawsuit 3. If an attending physician is willing to risk their career with engaging in unethical behavior and sexual harassment, the medical student should do everything in his power NOT to be in a position to be a victim again. The best way to do this is to have NO contact with this person in any way, shape or form. To confront this person, the OP would have to do this behind closed doors which would be the same as placing a target on his back. 4. This attending has already demonstrated that she is willing to lie about the OPs performance so why give her another chance to lie and add fuel to the "flames" so to speak.

    Jocg27 is correct on this one. The OP should get far, far away and put this whole incident behind himself. It might make a great book chapter on day in the distant future but right now, this is not the time to continue to flirt with disaster.

    njbmd :)
     
  32. tupac_don

    tupac_don Senior Member
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    What I think we are overlooking here, is whether the attending truly wrote a false letter. For all you know the OP knowing that he is having an affair with the attending took things lightly. I mean how many students do you know who "sneak off" to a room to have sex. Come on now, if he was so hardworking, he wouldn't have these problems. If anything, the attending to get revenge, really put him under a microsocope and gave him a tough evaluation. But we really don't know how good he really was, and how much he slacked in her presence, knowing full well that they were together. If anyting, he probably slacked, banking on the fact that the attending would give him a good eval anywho. But when things fell thru, she probably gave him and accurate, albeit a harsh evaluation. I am sure he wasn't as hard working around her, and probably didnt' take her as seriously as someone who is evaluating him, and proably didn't work too hard around her.
     
  33. BozoSparky

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    haha...that's news to some people on this site...
     
  34. njbmd

    njbmd Guest
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    Hi there,
    Just another good reason for the OP to avoid this attending.

    njbmd :)
     
  35. Diceman M.D.

    Diceman M.D. Member
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    I'm also gonna call bull**** on this. Sounds like the first season of Grey's Anatomy, except the poster's a male version of Meredith. I mean, seriously man, why the hell would you want to be Meredith? If I was gonna pretend I was on that show I'd at least be Alex. He got to bang a lingerie model! In the call room! Woohoo!
     
  36. My god that is a good post. You truly should become a neurologist. :) :thumbup:
     
  37. modelslashactor

    modelslashactor Safety not guaranteed
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    i enjoyed the story, although i wish you would have gone into more detail in the good parts. i have no advice, but the story was good.
     
  38. YouDontKnowJack

    YouDontKnowJack I no something you don't
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    yeah i thought i was reading a porno story.

    and then came the twist at the end: "what have i done?"

    still, my immediate response was: you f**ked a hard to find hot (fictional) doctor chick :thumbup:
     
  39. gregMD

    gregMD Senior Member
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    get yourself a tape recorder, put it in your pocket and go confront the attending. Maybe you'll get lucky and she'll incriminate herself (either that or you can carefully bait her to reveal what happened).... NOW you'll have leverage!
     
  40. beefballs

    beefballs MIDWEST
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    I call shenanigans somebody just told us what they use for beat-fuel
     
  41. jocg27

    jocg27 Senior Member
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    But it's like I said, leverage for what? The best he can hope for is to bring her down with him...It's not possible for him to come out of this untouched anymore. He can have all the leverage in the world, or they could totally hit it off again or something, but even if she wanted to, she can't backtrack anymore on the letter, its already been submitted and read. Withdrawing it will look even more shady for the both of them.

    You got screwed over, but no matter what happens when you talk to her, you can't possibly make it any better for yourself. The absolute best you can hope for is to screw her, too...if that's what you want, fine go for it...but if you want to improve your own situation, all you can do is just stop digging.
     
  42. Tell me you're going into psych...
     
  43. emgirl

    emgirl Senior Member
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    i would argue that what she did was sexual harassment- even though you're the guy and you "consented" to the sex, she was in a power position (she was your boss!?!) and it was totally inappropriate on her part. I would say something, I dont really feel like you can be blamed here. Screw her, she tried to screw you.
     
  44. emgirl

    emgirl Senior Member
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    uhhh what is the point of this? It seems like you just wanted to string together some big words. Half of it doesn't even make sense ("That the challenges leave you incredulous and naive is ludicrous.")....
     
  45. ghip

    ghip Member
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    Marry me.
     
  46. boulux

    boulux Member
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    You still don't get anything about women...
     
  47. Callogician

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    It makes perfect sense and uses no uncommon words. "ludicrous" modifies the introductory phrase. Everyone was able to understand this sentence except for you (including Ghip who understood and responded on page 2).

    Yes I do. You are misinterpreting my post. My claims are arguments of probability, not certainty. Think about it in terms of a differential diagnosis. If you have a patient of Polish descent, you are more likely than otherwise to consider a disease which is more prevalent in Poles...even if the relative risk for Poles is only 2:1. This fact alone would not allow a definitive diagnosis, but if several pieces of weak evidence came together, you would be fairly confident in your diagnosis. The same is true with my argument one page 1. Even if no single element is completely absurd, I feel that the overall characteristics of the opening post make it much more likely to be false than true (consider this my response to Ghip).

    Heh heh. Clever but dangerous. I've heard that recording someone without informing him is illegal. That is why you always hear "this call may be recorded for quality and training purposes" when you call support #s.

    :p

    Ha! Not the first time I've heard that by long shot.

    ...and tell her she's on candid camera as you come.

    Powerful professional men. Hot female docs usually don't f*ck medical students for precisely the same reason they usually don't f*ck janitors: they can do better.
     
  48. ghip

    ghip Member
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    The powerful men are too busy ****ing interns. Sorry, kid, the power position can be as much as a turn on for women as for men. Evolutionary psychology doesn't always explain modern human behavior.
     
  49. boulux

    boulux Member
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    Fair enough. It sounds logical to me and you bring some good points. However you should never forget that there's nothing rational with women :D
     
  50. Dr.McNinja

    Dr.McNinja Nobel War Prize Winner
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    That only applies to the phone though.
    And as you see, since he would be one or the other, he is legally allowed to tape without their consent. In person this would apply as well.
    *This changes for each state, so check your local laws

    However, doing this probably would do nothing other than destroy this person's career. If you want to do that, then fine, but it is unlikely to change an already written eval. There would be too many irregularities, as the USMLE would say.
     
  51. Law2Doc

    Law2Doc 5K+ Member
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    Generally depends on the state you are in. And laws may be different between telephones and wearing a wire as well.

    But it's moot because this woman is clearly fictitious for the reasons I indicated in my prior post on this thread.
     
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