What if..., a partnership thread.

[urge]

What if the group where you signed in for a 3 yr partnership track lost the contract to an AMC right before you made partner? Would you be bitter, angry, suicidal, or homicidal? How much on a scale from 1-10? Imagine it was one of those groups where partners make 2-3 times what new guys do.

It recently happened to someone I know.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[militarymd]

that's life in the big city.

It is nothing compared to what I had to go through to get my partnership.

 

[coprolalia]

Hmmmm... interesting... happened to some people I know too.

You basically have two options, as I see it:

(1) You stay and work for the AMC.

(2) You find another job.

Option 1 happens if you are okay with the change and/or have kids at critical points in school or some geographic limitation that prevents you from going elsewhere. Otherwise, you can pick up and move on if you don't like the deal.

No reason to be pissed. Business is business.

-copro

 

[Noyac]

It happened to me. My groups income dropped drastically in the last year b/4 my partnership due in part to an AMC. I hold no ill feelings towards those guys at all. I actually really enjoyed my time there. But it made my decision to go with my dream even easier.

PS: I was pursued heavily by the AMC but never considered it. That would have just been wrong.

 

[mille125]

boy that sucks....but such is life.....

 

[UTSouthwestern]

It happened to me. My groups income dropped drastically in the last year b/4 my partnership due in part to an AMC. I hold no ill feelings towards those guys at all. I actually really enjoyed my time there. But it made my decision to go with my dream even easier.

PS: I was pursued heavily by the AMC but never considered it. That would have just been wrong.

Good choice. That AMC took it on the chin this past fall. You might have been looking for another job if you had stayed.

 

[deleted126335]

Good choice. That AMC took it on the chin this past fall. You might have been looking for another job if you had stayed.

Many anesthesiologists have spent their entire career at the same hospital, albeit working under (or for) multiple corporate entities.

 

[Planktonmd]

This stuff happens and you have to accept it.
No one can predict the future but usually there are early signs when a group is not on good terms with the hospital, although the new guy might not see these signs or be intentionally kept in the dark by the older guys (common situation).
The best thing to do is accept the new situation and try to make the best out of it. It could actually be in the best interest of the new guy to get rid of the fat cats and have an equal chance at a new contract.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Good choice. That AMC took it on the chin this past fall. You might have been looking for another job if you had stayed.

Do AMC's ever lose contracts to private groups? Will there be 3 big AMC's that run everything in a generation?

 

[Planktonmd]

Do AMC's ever lose contracts to private groups? Will there be 3 big AMC's that run everything in a generation?

Yes,
The future of anesthesia is either AMC's or direct hospital employment.

 

[urge]

Do AMC's ever lose contracts to private groups? Will there be 3 big AMC's that run everything in a generation?

That's an interesting thought. Thuth is the cheapest bidder will win in the long run. Be it a traditional pp group or an AMC. Whenever I hear about a group losing a contract I cannot help but think they were stubborn about compensation.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Whenever I hear about a group losing a contract I cannot help but think they were stubborn about compensation.

Maybe, maybe not.

Say a group's partners are making a market wage - however you want to define that. Any AMC that has the ability to acquire labor at below market rates can come in and make a profit while also saving the hospital money. And my guess is that a well managed AMC probably can turn an hour of anesthesiologist labor into more revenue than most private groups can.

If there's any bright side to AMC's taking over the world, they will eventually tap the cheap labor wells dry and need to pay a real market wage.

 

[militarymd]

Maybe, maybe not.

Say a group's partners are making a market wage - however you want to define that. Any AMC that has the ability to acquire labor at below market rates can come in and make a profit while also saving the hospital money. And my guess is that a well managed AMC probably can turn an hour of anesthesiologist labor into more revenue than most private groups can.

If there's any bright side to AMC's taking over the world, they will eventually tap the cheap labor wells dry and need to pay a real market wage.

Purple: What makes you think that? Are you saying an AMC can bill and collect more money than a private group???? That makes no cents.


Red: Ha Ha ha...look around at ALL the applicants going into anesthesia....not going to happen...UNLESS we stop training so many of us.

 

[urge]

Maybe, maybe not.

Say a group's partners are making a market wage - however you want to define that. Any AMC that has the ability to acquire labor at below market rates can come in and make a profit while also saving the hospital money.

I disagree with you. I think you have it backwards. A group can get away with paying below market because they maintain interest in their group by offering a partnership. AMCs just hire you as an employee. The going rate for an AMC is the market rate. Check with some AMCs and you will see that they pay more than groups do to the new guys.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Purple: What makes you think that? Are you saying an AMC can bill and collect more money than a private group???? That makes no cents.

Red: Ha Ha ha...look around at ALL the applicants going into anesthesia....not going to happen...UNLESS we stop training so many of us.

Purple - Yeah, I think it's possible. I'm a resident - I could well be wrong. But an AMC that employs 200 MD's and 10 MBA's to study what they do might be able to improve efficiency. But even if you assume that the AMC is less efficient than 1/4 of private groups ... that leaves them 75% of the US to eat for lunch.

Red - I said eventually. I meant 10-20 years.

 

[Pilot Doc]

I disagree with you. I think you have it backwards. A group can get away with paying below market because they maintain interest in their group by offering a partnership. AMCs just hire you as an employee. The going rate for an AMC is the market rate. Check with some AMCs and you will see that they pay more than groups do to the new guys.

Yeah, but a group only meets a small % of their manpower needs with employees. An AMC that pays X to 10 employees still does better than a group that pays 1.2X to 8 partners and 0.8X to 2 employees. The trick is to have a way to recruit and retain people who will work for $X.

 

[deleted126335]

Yeah, but a group only meets a small % of their manpower needs with employees. An AMC that pays X to 10 employees still does better than a group that pays 1.2X to 8 partners and 0.8X to 2 employees. The trick is to have a way to recruit and retain people who will work for $X.

AND keep them motivated. The same doc will often have a different work ethic if an employee of an AMC versus a co-owner of a private group.

 

[militarymd]

Purple - Yeah, I think it's possible. I'm a resident - I could well be wrong. But an AMC that employs 200 MD's and 10 MBA's to study what they do might be able to improve efficiency. But even if you assume that the AMC is less efficient than 1/4 of private groups ... that leaves them 75% of the US to eat for lunch.

Red - I said eventually. I meant 10-20 years.

"efficiency" is frequently not controlled by the anesthesia department....

Hospitals make money by collecting "facility fees"...and at the current reimbursement rates...the hospital will make money doing a single case in the middle of the night, having to call in an entire OR crew to staff the OR for one case.

As an anesthesia department, you don't want to do that case...because you lose money....unless you are the sole proprieter...and even then you would rather not do it at the inconvenient time.....

Bottom line...AMC's CAN't collect any more money for that particular case than a PP group...and in general...will have to hire MORE people to provide coverage for the "inconvenient" hours.

Like I said...no way.

 

[Pilot Doc]

Like I said...no way.

Well, I don't necessarily agree, but I doubt arguing will be of much use.

If AMC's are inefficient compared to PP groups, why are they expanding?

 

[militarymd]

Well, I don't necessarily agree, but I doubt arguing will be of much use.

If AMC's are inefficient compared to PP groups, why are they expanding?

1 - guaranteed service through contracts
2 - readily available of cheap labor (new grads/fmgs/other poor candidates)
3 - current prevalence of lazy fat-cat overpaid, underworked pp groups



they aren't expanding into all areas.

 

[toughlife]

1 - guaranteed service through contracts
2 - readily available of cheap labor (new grads/fmgs/other poor candidates)
3 - current prevalence of lazy fat-cat overpaid, underworked pp groups



they aren't expanding into all areas.

How prevalent is #3?

 

[militarymd]

How prevalent is #3?

hard to say, but I would say more common than you might think.

ALL those jobs out there that don't "advertise", and yet receive a subsidy from the hospital probably falls into that category.

 

[deleted126335]

1 - guaranteed service through contracts
2 - readily available of cheap labor (new grads/fmgs/other poor candidates)
3 - current prevalence of lazy fat-cat overpaid, underworked pp groups



they aren't expanding into all areas.

Don't most people actually aspire to be #3 ? Isn't that part of the problem? Or is it the solution?

 

[militarymd]

Don't most people actually aspire to be #3 ? Isn't that part of the problem? Or is it the solution?

yes, I would like that, but then I would always be looking over my shoulder for some guy like me coming after me.

 

[bostonblaz]

Hey Mil, got a question. I am going to join a pp group in july that has been with the same hospital for 40 yrs+. In all that time they have never been subsidized. So is there any way that a manged group could come in and oust the group barring gross incomptence or too many compliants by hospital brass or surgeons?

 

[Consigliere]

Hey Mil, got a question. I am going to join a pp group in july that has been with the same hospital for 40 yrs+. In all that time they have never been subsidized. So is there any way that a manged group could come in and oust the group barring gross incomptence or too many compliants by hospital brass or surgeons?

Yep. Offer to do it cheaper.

 

[hokie]

Yep. Offer to do it cheaper.

How do they do it cheaper if the group is not being subsidized?

 

[militarymd]

How do they do it cheaper if the group is not being subsidized?

they can't...

consig...you have it wrong here.

 

[militarymd]

Hey Mil, got a question. I am going to join a pp group in july that has been with the same hospital for 40 yrs+. In all that time they have never been subsidized. So is there any way that a manged group could come in and oust the group barring gross incomptence or too many compliants by hospital brass or surgeons?

only if the managed group is offering increased services:

- more locations
- additional services...mri, neonates, icu, etc.

 

[toughlife]

hard to say, but I would say more common than you might think.

ALL those jobs out there that don't "advertise", and yet receive a subsidy from the hospital probably falls into that category.

So it seems like joining a group that receives no subsidy from the hospital (besides some free meals, access to the doctor's lounge for snacks, coffee and free parking) might be in a better position to maintain/win a contract with a hospital.
This would require some 'belt-tightening' in terms of salary and vacation but it may be worth the effort if it can be made into a profitable venture.

 

[deleted126335]

only if the managed group is offering increased services:

- more locations
- additional services...mri, neonates, icu, etc.

Offer to pay rent for office space, rent for use of anesthesia equipment, take less from the private payors so more $ freed up for the hospital. Elective cases nights weekends, etc. Hospital wide vascular access 24/7, etc

 

[Pilot Doc]

Offer to pay rent for office space, rent for use of anesthesia equipment, take less from the private payors so more $ freed up for the hospital. Elective cases nights weekends, etc. Hospital wide vascular access 24/7, etc

New Porche for CEO, CEO's wife, CEO's mistress, etc.

 

[ncdoc1974]

that's life in the big city.

It is nothing compared to what I had to go through to get my partnership.

What did you have to endure exactly?

 

[Frank Rizzo]

Whats the going thought on places that have a long partnership track... where they sort of lowball you with salary early on (say 175K), but after a 5yr partnership track you are around $500K? The caveats being that everybody works about the same (partners work no more/no less than new people, equal call, etc) and that they claim "everybody makes partner." Interviewed at a place like that earlier this week, and didn't really know what to think.

 

[thegasman]

Whats the going thought on places that have a long partnership track... where they sort of lowball you with salary early on (say 175K), but after a 5yr partnership track you are around $500K? The caveats being that everybody works about the same (partners work no more/no less than new people, equal call, etc) and that they claim "everybody makes partner." Interviewed at a place like that earlier this week, and didn't really know what to think.

In a word - risky. 5 years is a long time and 175K is very low. If everybody really makes partner and it is your dream job/location it might be ok, but who knows if in 5 years in anesthesiology the 500K partnership will exist. Between Obama and the CRNAs the future is somewhat uncertain. It might be a good idea to try to get as much as you can now while the gettin is good. I am in a 3 year partnership tract (similar to the scenario you mentioned - I make a little more and so do the partners - and I have my concerns - but the hours are good - we share equally- and the people are nice and I had geographic limitations.

 

[urge]

Whats the going thought on places that have a long partnership track... where they sort of lowball you with salary early on (say 175K), but after a 5yr partnership track you are around $500K?

Those groups won't last too long, IMHO. The AMCs will keep winning those contracts. Salaries will even out between new grads and fat cats. It doesn't matter if you are Longnecker himself, medicare will pay you 20/unit as it does to any joe blow anesthesiologist.

Groups will have to cut down their salaries to stay competitive. They might try to convince new grads into 5 yr partnerships or 175k starting salaries, but you would have to be an idiot to go for that.

 

[thegasman]

Those groups won't last too long, IMHO. The AMCs will keep winning those contracts. Salaries will even out between new grads and fat cats. It doesn't matter if you are Longnecker himself, medicare will pay you 20/unit as it does to any joe blow anesthesiologist.Groups will have to cut down their salaries to stay competitive. They might try to convince new grads into 5 yr partnerships or 175k starting salaries, but you would have to be an idiot to go for that.

But all groups are not the same and they definitely don't bill the same. The group in question may do a lot of cases and bill a lot of units. They also may work in a practice where they have a low percentage of medicare. High private insurance population equals a much higher per unit payment. This enables their partners to make a lot more money. What is an AMC going to have to offer that this group does not? My group contracts with the hospital and receives no hospital compensation. Our revenue comes purely from billing. If groups do a good job taking care of the patients, keeping the surgeons and hospital administration happy why would they lose the contract if the hospital is already not paying them anything?

 

[militarymd]

What did you have to endure exactly?

I left the Navy with zero knowledge of PP. Signed with a group that gave partnership on Day 1. The group starts operations on the day I start.

Projected revenue should yield w-2 pay of around 400,000 per year.

All sounds good, but I didn't ask any of the right questions or meet all the "partners"....so this is my first 2 years.

Day one...meet first fat fuc k partner who's first words to me was "who the hell are you?"

After I introduce myself...this was followed by "how the hell are we going to pay you?"

This is followed by getting paid around 60,000 for 6 months of work....with 20,000 being loans that I had to pay back.

All of my partners were either locums, FMGs, DO's who couldn't get board certified, or women who manipulate the schedule to go home at 2 pm and leave me holding the bag.

Lots of folks got sick on mondays and fridays.

I had one fmg tell me on Monday that she was going to be sick on friday.

I had another fmg who would consistly get sick on the am of work when she found out that she had an ASA 3 case to do.

Group meetings consisted of me and the guy who hired me because everyone else was "busy" 24/7.

Everyone tried to make everyone else look bad by backstabbing and bad talking the other guy to the surgeons and admin.

For 18 months I struggled through (10 to 12 hour days) keeping the OR's running with the CRNAs' and one slacker female (who's turned around some) until I could get everyone fired and hire REAL partners.

MY group is awesome now, and I built it.....a 3 year partnership track would have been a cakewalk compared to my first 2 years.

 

[InGasWeTrust]

My question is what happened to the delta after you make partner in 5 yrs?

The breakdown:
yr 1=325k
yr2=275k
yr3=225k
yr4=175k
yr5=125k

Where the hell and who the hell gets this $1.25M?

That has always been my hangup with partnership tracks right out of residency....If you leave your 1st job within 2 yrs like over 2/3 of new trainees do then you loss a big chunk of money that you can never ever recover.

Especially when you are getting $40/unit regardless of whether you are BC/BE/Miller or Longnecker............

With all that being said I think "ownership" in an equitable partnership is desirable.

My advice to new upcoming grads dont go for the partnership track without atleast exploring either an employee based position, locums or even a group that you like that has an employee only position.

The real world is much different than residency, your interest and desires within the specialty may change and therefore your job requirements may change. So dont be so willing to give up 50-200k your first/2nd year out. This is the time when you can least afford it! Your 401k will need stuffing/ your cc will need to get paid off/ your student loans are prolly bulging at the seams and you prolly want to start saving 4 a downpayment on a house, etc.........

 

[urge]

But all groups are not the same and they definitely don't bill the same. The group in question may do a lot of cases and bill a lot of units. They also may work in a practice where they have a low percentage of medicare. High private insurance population equals a much higher per unit payment. This enables their partners to make a lot more money. What is an AMC going to have to offer that this group does not? My group contracts with the hospital and receives no hospital compensation. Our revenue comes purely from billing. If groups do a good job taking care of the patients, keeping the surgeons and hospital administration happy why would they lose the contract if the hospital is already not paying them anything?

I agree with you on that. Some locales are better than others due to payor mix. Groups in good places can and are self suficient. My point is that there shouldn't be such inequality between partner pay and new grad pay, because the real payors (insurance) don't care about that.

When a new grad is offered 175k and 5 yr partnership they are being scammed. Running 4 rooms at the national average/unit makes a lot more than 175k. There is no reason for this. You are being asked to bend over and pick up the soap. I would rather work for an AMC.

When I was interviewing a pp offered me 160k with 4 yr partnership running 4 rooms. I wanted to get up and leave but managed to stay polite. At the end of the day they sat me down with the administrator to see what I thought of the job. I couldn't hold it anymore. I told them the pay sucked and they wouldn't even be able to hire me in their dreams. Then I walked away. These people don't really care. They'll keep interviewing new grads until someone is stupid enough to sign.

 

[militarymd]

I agree with you on that. Some locales are better than others due to payor mix. Groups in good places can and are self suficient. My point is that there shouldn't be such inequality between partner pay and new grad pay, because the real payors (insurance) don't care about that.

When a new grad is offered 175k and 5 yr partnership they are being scammed. Running 4 rooms at the national average/unit makes a lot more than 175k. There is no reason for this. You are being asked to bend over and pick up the soap. I would rather work for an AMC.

When I was interviewing a pp offered me 160k with 4 yr partnership running 4 rooms. I wanted to get up and leave but managed to stay polite. At the end of the day they sat me down with the administrator to see what I thought of the job. I couldn't hold it anymore. I told them the pay sucked and they wouldn't even be able to hire me in their dreams. Then I walked away. These people don't really care. They'll keep interviewing new grads until someone is stupid enough to sign.

hell, why bother with new grads...plenty of fmg's to go around.

all this interest in anesthesiology has SCREWED us all.

 

[militarymd]

I had a URM in there also...I forgot that part...who graduated from Vanderbilt...

My conclusions from my interaction with this female URM is this:

1) Affirmative action is wrong
2) if affirmative action had no role in getting this URM through Vanderbilt, then Vanderbilt sucks....and the Vanderbilt syndrome is real
3) Board certification means something...because this female URM from Vanderbilty could not get BCed.

4) and the stereotypes that are out there about Affirmative Action female URM doctors are TRUE

5) I'm glad she is no longer associated with me in any way.

I left the Navy with zero knowledge of PP. Signed with a group that gave partnership on Day 1. The group starts operations on the day I start.

Projected revenue should yield w-2 pay of around 400,000 per year.

All sounds good, but I didn't ask any of the right questions or meet all the "partners"....so this is my first 2 years.

Day one...meet first fat fuc k partner who's first words to me was "who the hell are you?"

After I introduce myself...this was followed by "how the hell are we going to pay you?"

This is followed by getting paid around 60,000 for 6 months of work....with 20,000 being loans that I had to pay back.

All of my partners were either locums, FMGs, DO's who couldn't get board certified, or women who manipulate the schedule to go home at 2 pm and leave me holding the bag.

Lots of folks got sick on mondays and fridays.

I had one fmg tell me on Monday that she was going to be sick on friday.

I had another fmg who would consistly get sick on the am of work when she found out that she had an ASA 3 case to do.

Group meetings consisted of me and the guy who hired me because everyone else was "busy" 24/7.

Everyone tried to make everyone else look bad by backstabbing and bad talking the other guy to the surgeons and admin.

For 18 months I struggled through (10 to 12 hour days) keeping the OR's running with the CRNAs' and one slacker female (who's turned around some) until I could get everyone fired and hire REAL partners.

MY group is awesome now, and I built it.....a 3 year partnership track would have been a cakewalk compared to my first 2 years.

 

[Arch Guillotti]

I had a URM in there also...I forgot that part...who graduated from Vanderbilt...

My conclusions from my interaction with this female URM is this:

1) Affirmative action is wrong
2) if affirmative action had no role in getting this URM through Vanderbilt, then Vanderbilt sucks....and the Vanderbilt syndrome is real
3) Board certification means something...because this female URM from Vanderbilty could not get BCed.

4) and the stereotypes that are out there about Affirmative Action female URM doctors are TRUE

5) I'm glad she is no longer associated with me in any way.

 

[2ndyear]

My question is what happened to the delta after you make partner in 5 yrs?

The breakdown:
yr 1=325k
yr2=275k
yr3=225k
yr4=175k
yr5=125k

Where the hell and who the hell gets this $1.25M?

That has always been my hangup with partnership tracks right out of residency....If you leave your 1st job within 2 yrs like over 2/3 of new trainees do then you loss a big chunk of money that you can never ever recover.

Especially when you are getting $40/unit regardless of whether you are BC/BE/Miller or Longnecker............

With all that being said I think "ownership" in an equitable partnership is desirable.

My advice to new upcoming grads dont go for the partnership track without atleast exploring either an employee based position, locums or even a group that you like that has an employee only position.

The real world is much different than residency, your interest and desires within the specialty may change and therefore your job requirements may change. So dont be so willing to give up 50-200k your first/2nd year out. This is the time when you can least afford it! Your 401k will need stuffing/ your cc will need to get paid off/ your student loans are prolly bulging at the seams and you prolly want to start saving 4 a downpayment on a house, etc.........

That's good advice. I ran the numbers before signing. With a partnership track, you make out financially only if you stay with the group. Kind of like buying vs. leasing a car, if you keep it 4+ years then buying is clearly better, if not then leasing may be a better option.

Here's my sample calculations at 5 and 10 years out for employed vs. partner in my area:
Pre-partner pay on 3 year track: $750
5 year total pay $1.45
10 year total pay $3.2

Employed (assuming no increase in salary which may or may not be true depending on environment, and who knows where we are going with this one)
3 year: $870
5 year: $1.45
10 year: $2.9

 

[militarymd]

My question is what happened to the delta after you make partner in 5 yrs?

The breakdown:
yr 1=325k
yr2=275k
yr3=225k
yr4=175k
yr5=125k

Where the hell and who the hell gets this $1.25M?

That has always been my hangup with partnership tracks right out of residency....If you leave your 1st job within 2 yrs like over 2/3 of new trainees do then you loss a big chunk of money that you can never ever recover.

Especially when you are getting $40/unit regardless of whether you are BC/BE/Miller or Longnecker............

With all that being said I think "ownership" in an equitable partnership is desirable.

My advice to new upcoming grads dont go for the partnership track without atleast exploring either an employee based position, locums or even a group that you like that has an employee only position.

The real world is much different than residency, your interest and desires within the specialty may change and therefore your job requirements may change. So dont be so willing to give up 50-200k your first/2nd year out. This is the time when you can least afford it! Your 401k will need stuffing/ your cc will need to get paid off/ your student loans are prolly bulging at the seams and you prolly want to start saving 4 a downpayment on a house, etc.........

the partners who are employing you keeps the money....and when you become partner....you would hope that you're employing someone who's money you will keep....otherwise....when you become partner, you just get to keep your money.

 

[toughlife]

That's good advice. I ran the numbers before signing. With a partnership track, you make out financially only if you stay with the group. Kind of like buying vs. leasing a car, if you keep it 4+ years then buying is clearly better, if not then leasing may be a better option.

Here's my sample calculations at 5 and 10 years out for employed vs. partner in my area:
Pre-partner pay on 3 year track: $750
5 year total pay $1.45
10 year total pay $3.2

Employed (assuming no increase in salary which may or may not be true depending on environment, and who knows where we are going with this one)
3 year: $870
5 year: $1.45
10 year: $2.9

Not much difference in the long run if you invest wisely. However, the argument against partnership track is that if they lose their contract you'll get screwed and you can't take that promise of higher future wages to the bank.

 

[toughlife]

I had a URM in there also...I forgot that part...who graduated from Vanderbilt...

My conclusions from my interaction with this female URM is this:

1) Affirmative action is wrong
2) if affirmative action had no role in getting this URM through Vanderbilt, then Vanderbilt sucks....and the Vanderbilt syndrome is real
3) Board certification means something...because this female URM from Vanderbilty could not get BCed.

4) and the stereotypes that are out there about Affirmative Action female URM doctors are TRUE

5) I'm glad she is no longer associated with me in any way.

Now that explains why you are the way you are. We are products of our life experiences and they undoubtedly play a big role in our views of the world. So no surprise as to your sentiments.

 

[mille125]

I had a URM in there also...I forgot that part...who graduated from Vanderbilt...

My conclusions from my interaction with this female URM is this:

1) Affirmative action is wrong
2) if affirmative action had no role in getting this URM through Vanderbilt, then Vanderbilt sucks....and the Vanderbilt syndrome is real
3) Board certification means something...because this female URM from Vanderbilty could not get BCed.

4) and the stereotypes that are out there about Affirmative Action female URM doctors are TRUE

5) I'm glad she is no longer associated with me in any way.

.............

 

[mille125]

I had a URM in there also...I forgot that part...who graduated from Vanderbilt...

My conclusions from my interaction with this female URM is this:

1) Affirmative action is wrong
2) if affirmative action had no role in getting this URM through Vanderbilt, then Vanderbilt sucks....and the Vanderbilt syndrome is real
3) Board certification means something...because this female URM from Vanderbilty could not get BCed.

4) and the stereotypes that are out there about Affirmative Action female URM doctors are TRUE

5) I'm glad she is no longer associated with me in any way.

Based on your astute observation and would guess that you would come to the following conclusions based on real events that have happened in my life.

1) A black male broke into my car when I was 10......so all blacks are thieves.

2) A white male collegues in residency made repeated racial slurs....so all white are racist.

3) An Asian female in my high school was our valedictorian.........so all Asians are smart.

4) I fired a white female former employee because she wouldnt do her job.....so all white female are lazy and inept.

5) A former collegue was not board certified and had a very distinguished career....so board certification is not necessary.


These false statements are equally as ridiculous as yours. You had a bad experience with a URM applicant. This is not an indictment for every URM applicant in the world. I have never interviewed a URM applicant and I can tell you that laziness, ineptitude, and incompetence are not unique to any one ethnic group, sex, or board certification status.

 

[Planktonmd]

Based on your astute observation and would guess that you would come to the following conclusions based on real events that have happened in my life.

1) A black male broke into my car when I was 10......so all blacks are thieves.

2) A white male collegues in residency made repeated racial slurs....so all white are racist.

3) An Asian female in my high school was our valedictorian.........so all Asians are smart.

4) I fired a white female former employee because she wouldnt do her job.....so all white female are lazy and inept.

5) A former collegue was not board certified and had a very distinguished career....so board certification is not necessary.


These false statements are equally as ridiculous as yours. You had a bad experience with a URM applicant. This is not an indictment for every URM applicant in the world. I have never interviewed a URM applicant and I can tell you that laziness, ineptitude, and incompetence are not unique to any one ethnic group, sex, or board certification status.

Anyone knows who qualifies as a URM?
Homosexuals? Blacks? Jews? Asians? Arabs?....
Who exactly is a URM??