What if you just DON'T want to volunteer?

[AllDaWEI]

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OP: You really have an axe to grind, yeah? Well, nothing wrong with that. Except that no amount of discussion really seems to alter your opinion. Why keep it up? What are you trying to accomplish with your repeated comments on the subject?

To discuss the matter a bit more seriously, volunteering done by pre-meds at this point is certainly a "cart before the horse" sort of thing. I imagine somewhere in the beginning, people who naturally sought out volunteer opportunities rose to the top of the pile in admissions and thus the "unwritten requirement" was born. The problem is that any sort of "I did <x> and got accepted," when it happens in sufficient numbers and gets passed as conventional wisdom, now becomes one of the "unwritten requirements" and now becomes done because it's seen as necessary rather than doing it because you want to. That is, actions that were interpreted as being a reflection of one's character can no longer be interpreted that way. But simply doing <x> isn't taken at face value by admissions committees, of course. That's where the interview comes in, that's where letters of recommendation play a part, that's where your personal statement contributes. The application, in its entirety, not as isolated parts, are responsible for creating the picture of the applicant for the reviewers.

Unfortunately, there's no real way to prevent this for any sort of subjective criteria of admission (i.e. character), assuming that the criteria as currently used are in fact desirable. If you disagree that philanthropy (which is what I feel volunteering is a tangible demonstration of, and why it's so highly desired in an applicant) should be a consideration for admission, then this discussion is moot and we're wasting each other's time.

Indeed I agree with you here, and what you mentioned is why I have such an "axe to grind." A long time ago, there were probably well-intentioned people doing altruistic things as you mentioned. In general, viewing volunteerism outside of the medical school admissions lens looks IMPRESSIVE and ADMIRABLE. If you do not know about anything of pre-med admissions, you would probably be very impressed with 500 hours of hospital volunteering. If you are a pre-med, it's nothing. Maybe you can be one of those cocky members that will say how your ECs are so much better than someone elses???????? WHAT????? 🙁

Volunteering has now become so mainstream that you be surprised when someone is NOT volunteering. Its talked about just like any other thing, nothing remotely impressive. Every now and then you have threads where unknowing pre-meds ask about mission trips thinking they will look "good." SDNers quickly correct them and let them know that this does not look impressive anymore.

It's sad that pre-meds have turned something that was supposed to be impressive and admirable into something that is measured by quantity. It's sad when you have pre-meds half-assing everything they do in the hospital because they hate it and don't want to be there. There's no point in telling them that they should not be there if they don't want to... They don't want to be there, but they have to because they won't get into medical school without it!!! This is what it has come down to, it's sad. There's no point in blaming pre-meds, it's just what happened. They are quickly running out of thing to make them look unique.

 

[mauberley]

Indeed I agree with you here, and what you mentioned is why I have such an "axe to grind." A long time ago, there were probably well-intentioned people doing altruistic things as you mentioned. In general, viewing volunteerism outside of the medical school admissions lens looks IMPRESSIVE and ADMIRABLE. If you do not know about anything of pre-med admissions, you would probably be very impressed with 500 hours of hospital volunteering. If you are a pre-med, it's nothing. Maybe you can be one of those cocky members that will say how your ECs are so much better than someone elses???????? WHAT????? 🙁

Volunteering has now become so mainstream that you be surprised when someone is NOT volunteering. Its talked about just like any other thing, nothing remotely impressive. Every now and then you have threads where unknowing pre-meds ask about mission trips thinking they will look "good." SDNers quickly correct them and let them know that this does not look impressive anymore.

It's sad that pre-meds have turned something that was supposed to be impressive and admirable into something that is measured by quantity. It's sad when you have pre-meds half-assing everything they do in the hospital because they hate it and don't want to be there. There's no point in telling them that they should not be there if they don't want to... They don't want to be there, but they have to because they won't get into medical school without it!!! This is what it has come down to, it's sad. There's no point in blaming pre-meds, it's just what happened. They are quickly running out of thing to make them look unique.

So...what are we doing here, then.

 

[Stumpyman]

As FGMs, my parents never volunteered.
They are the doctors that patients always come to in the places they work.

They think volunteering is BS as well, but it's a requirement.

I don't mind the shadowing, but hospital volunteering really is a drag if you don't find something fun/engaging. I help out senior citizens in Spanish.

Foreign graduate medicines?

 

[Stumpyman]

Indeed I agree with you here, and what you mentioned is why I have such an "axe to grind." A long time ago, there were probably well-intentioned people doing altruistic things as you mentioned. In general, viewing volunteerism outside of the medical school admissions lens looks IMPRESSIVE and ADMIRABLE. If you do not know about anything of pre-med admissions, you would probably be very impressed with 500 hours of hospital volunteering. If you are a pre-med, it's nothing. Maybe you can be one of those cocky members that will say how your ECs are so much better than someone elses???????? WHAT????? 🙁

Volunteering has now become so mainstream that you be surprised when someone is NOT volunteering. Its talked about just like any other thing, nothing remotely impressive. Every now and then you have threads where unknowing pre-meds ask about mission trips thinking they will look "good." SDNers quickly correct them and let them know that this does not look impressive anymore.

It's sad that pre-meds have turned something that was supposed to be impressive and admirable into something that is measured by quantity. It's sad when you have pre-meds half-assing everything they do in the hospital because they hate it and don't want to be there. There's no point in telling them that they should not be there if they don't want to... They don't want to be there, but they have to because they won't get into medical school without it!!! This is what it has come down to, it's sad. There's no point in blaming pre-meds, it's just what happened. They are quickly running out of thing to make them look unique.

To be honest, I generally agree with your viewpoints. However, what is it that you want to gain out of creating these threads (and I mean that in a literal, non-offensive way)?

 

[Eloheim]

So...what are we doing here, then.

Apparently arguing that something is pointless when arguing about it is pointless as well 😎

 

[onelastpuff23]

I don't understand the purpose of this thread. Medical schools don't put at a disadvantage if you don't volunteer. Many great experiences are paid. If you had a great internship somewhere, then they will treat it well. If you did research, then put that up as well. If you served in the armed forces, then that's a great thing on a med school app. If you got paid, and saw patients then it's good for you.

I think you're complaining that medical schools require certain ECs, some of which are medically related. How is it illogical, or unfair? They want you know what the job entails. This profession is mired with arrogance, and elitism. Do you blame them if they want to find people who are willing to commit to some aspect of medicine that is noble?

 

[Ub3rmensch]

I don't think you have to volunteer ALL your time, but at least once in a while, or a lot in a short period of time, you should attempt to serve as a volunteer in the community. The whole point of medicine is to help others. Its "required" because you gain a lot of experience, you give something back to society, you grow and benefit personally, you learn new things, you feel a sense of accomplishment, and for some of us, you have fun.

If you truly don't want to donate your free time for the betterment of society and instead do "selfish" things, then you're not showing an altruistic characteristic. Doctors are not revered as selfish people. Although some are, you shouldn't strive to become one.

 

[The right Path]

Most of the people in my social circles (aside from postbacc classmates) do volunteer work of some kind (schools, animal shelters, library, disaster response, law enforcement, swim club, etc). Hell my neighbors across the street are retired and do nothing but volunteer work. And would you believe that they're not all trying to get into med school? It's pretty normal to actually want to help other people. 🙄

 

[mishaS]

And that's the problem. A lack of volunteering should not hurt your chances of getting in based on the theory of volunteering.

I don't understand this thread. If everyone volunteers, volunteering =/= make you special. Not volunteering while everyone else volunteers will make you look comparatively worse. It is pretty much the same with research because most students now do research in undergrad. Either way though, I actually don't mind these pseudo requirements; forcing people to get off their asses and help their community is not a bad thing, and neither is forcing people to get a little experience in a [real] lab to understand what goes into research.

 

[Camy99]

*actually likes volunteering*

I've always offered myself as a volunteer whenever possible for anything (I can think back to elementary years...). Only recently did I start *clinical* volunteer for med-school sake, but even the position I took I made sure it was something I felt I would want to do sans med school aspiration.

To me volunteering means: This group of people could use this ability/talent I have, so I'll provide it and won't ask for anything back because it was my choice to help. That's it really. In fact, I get more bothered in volunteering jobs by people who are sitting there practically counting minutes. It stops being volunteering the moment you don't actually WANT to. Even if it's something you enjoy, if you'd don't want to be there, then you don't, so you shouldn't.

There's other amazing things you could do that could help your med school app if that's the goal. volunteering is just "easier" to do to rack up hours for comparison. But if you don't like it, show your humility some other way--I'd like to think that should get you the same amount of adcom brownie points, no? Save the world by discovering something in your research, idk! Just make sure you're convincing when you tell that adcom that you hate giving up your time freely to help people, but you really are a caring person, really!

Shrug...

 

[drizzt3117]

I don't hate volunteering, I just hated my "pre-med volunteer experience." I was in the ER where I was bossed around like their b*tch, doing menial tasks while tech and nurses were hanging out.

I have done a few volunteer gigs, none long-term commitments. Some were just one time things, but I had fun. There was a big difference between these and the hospital. With these gigs, I had a lot of fun and never watched the clock. It was the opposite at the hospital.

In theory, volunteering is supposed to be fun and make you feel good. If that is case, then why do so many pre-meds show such a crappy attitude toward something they are doing out of the goodness of their hearts because they want to?

sounds like 3rd year of med school.

 

[IMSingular]

Keep in mind, grasshoppers, that only 45% of applicants are admitted. If you don't wish to engage in an activity that adcoms seem to treat as an unwritten requirement for admission, don't be surprised if you are among the 55% of applicants who go away empty handed.

..

Well that is the present conventional wisdom of adcoms. OP's line of thought is that some who don't want to volunteer, an oxymoron under existing situation, may make pretty good physicians, and actually might be better physicians if they spent their time otherwise.

Is the present conventional wisdom right? A candidate with 4.0gpa, 40 on MCAT, with good research in medically related lab with no volunteering: would he make it?

 

[LizzyM]

is there a good place where stats like this are published? individual school acceptance rates are usually pretty low, and I havent seen global stats in many places.

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html

A candidate with 4.0gpa, 40 on MCAT, with good research in medically related lab with no volunteering: would he make it?

Has he had any exposure to medicine beyond his own health and that of his family? Has he demonstrated any interest in helping people? Someone might be a very bright person and be very skilled in the laboratory but until they have demonstrated an interest in caring for people, we're likely to move on to someone who is very bright and interested in both the scientific method and the care of inviduals.

 

[BirdIsTheWord]

You just fell into the trap. You suggested volunteering somewhere enjoyable.

? Have I been hoodwinked? I mean the free clinic I do can be fun, but I enjoy serving the greater good

 

[TriagePreMed]

But, what if the pre-med has absolutely no desire to volunteer? 😕

What if you don't want to touch a patient's nut sack during a physical? If you despise volunteer work so much, treat it as one of the many sacrifices to go into medicine.

 

[blizzah]

I never volunteered in a hospital because I saw it as a waste of time. You don't HAVE to do any volunteering as long as you can find other ways to show a dedication/understanding of medicine.

 

[AllDaWEI]

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html



Has he had any exposure to medicine beyond his own health and that of his family? Has he demonstrated any interest in helping people? Someone might be a very bright person and be very skilled in the laboratory but until they have demonstrated an interest in caring for people, we're likely to move on to someone who is very bright and interested in both the scientific method and the care of inviduals.

But what about the kids straight from high school that get in based on stats to special programs, assuming they do not need to do ECs while in college? They may never get "clinical experience" until actually in medical school. Doesn't this undermine ADCOM reasoning?

 

[SpecterGT260]

https://www.aamc.org/data/facts/app...mcat-gpa-grid-by-selected-race-ethnicity.html



Has he had any exposure to medicine beyond his own health and that of his family? Has he demonstrated any interest in helping people? Someone might be a very bright person and be very skilled in the laboratory but until they have demonstrated an interest in caring for people, we're likely to move on to someone who is very bright and interested in both the scientific method and the care of inviduals.

this is another thing that came up when I met with admissions after my first failed attempt at getting in. the admin said she dislikes having those meetings with 2 types of people because she has to break bad news: the ones who just dont have the scores but are very eager. and the ones that have awesome scores but lack the interpersonal skills they look for in their students.

 

[LizzyM]

But what about the kids straight from high school that get in based on stats to special programs, assuming they do not need to do ECs while in college? They may never get "clinical experience" until actually in medical school. Doesn't this undermine ADCOM reasoning?

Do you think that the medical school adcom has anything to do with the admission of those students? There is often animosity between the undergrad admissions office that controls that process and the med admissions office that is cut out of the process. Little by little I think that you'll see those programs replaced by early decision pipelines directed at college juniors and seniors


In some cases, those special program applicants volunteered through 3 or 4 years of HS and some continue to engage in volunteerism while in college (they like it!). Some of those students are physician's kids and they've had significant exposure through their parent's practice. It is in response to those students who don't volunteer anywhere because they have a guaranteed ticket that adcoms come to the realization that students who demonstrate altruism are highly desirable students.

 

[drizzt3117]

But what about the kids straight from high school that get in based on stats to special programs, assuming they do not need to do ECs while in college? They may never get "clinical experience" until actually in medical school. Doesn't this undermine ADCOM reasoning?

that's one reason BS/MD programs are disappearing. Brown now has less than half the spots they had before; Northwestern's program size has decreased and lots of schools like Wisconsin have discontinued their programs altogether.

 

[notbobtrustme]

If there was a requirement to suck donkey dicks to get into medical school, there'd be a waiting list at every zoo across the country and this board would be full of posts telling other SDN'ers where you can get some "quality" donkey dick in lesser known areas.

 

[Athina]

.It is in response to those students who don't volunteer anywhere because they have a guaranteed ticket that adcoms come to the realization that students who demonstrate altruism are highly desirable students.

But that's the whole point. If volunteering is seen as an unofficial requirement, it is in no way altruistic. It is just something you have to do in order to get in. It is something you do to advance your own interests rather than to truly help someone.

Making volunteering an unofficial requirement destroys its altruistic qualities.

 

[AllDaWEI]

But that's the whole point. If volunteering is seen as an unofficial requirement, it is in no way altruistic. It is just something you have to do in order to get in. It is something you do to advance your own interests rather than to truly help someone.

Making volunteering an unofficial requirement destroys its altruistic qualities.

I completely agree. If a medical school wanted to see who was actually altruistic, they would have to look for volunteer start dates long before the applicant started to take medical school pre-reqs.

One thing that I find very frustrating, as I have mentioned before, is how ADCOMs are like Santa Claus. They have a naughty and nice list, without even knowing an applicant's true intentions. If the pre-med starts volunteering too late, does too few hours, or isn't volunteering at the time of filling out the AMCAS, then it is a red flag to them. If someone has enough hours and has the activity labeled as "present," then they are very altruistic! Sometimes an applicant may be smarter in the way they time their ECs.

This is why I make this thread. For discussion about how flawed this is. I'm likely not going to change things, but it's interesting to discuss. As for the donkey thing mentioned above, I agree that even though its a stretch, pre-meds can be brainwashed. If jumping off a bridge became a part of medical school admissions, everyone would be doing it. Ten years from now you would have SDNers bashing you saying you will be a terrible physician if you are a bad swimmer or don't jump off a bridge.

 

[AllDaWEI]

If there was a requirement to suck donkey dicks to get into medical school, there'd be a waiting list at every zoo across the country and this board would be full of posts telling other SDN'ers where you can get some "quality" donkey dick in lesser known areas.

This is way too extreme! Jumping off a bridge is more reasonable. 🙄

 

[SpecterGT260]

simple exposure to this sort of thing factors in as well. you guys are being too literal. even if applicants are begrudgingly doing this, there will still be people like the OP who are so opposed to volunteering that they plain dont do it. regardless of factors involved, volunteer experience can be used to gauge relative levels of altruism between applicants.



and also... if we accept your argument on this then you are saying that volunteering is more indicative of a willingness to jump through hoops. explain to me how this is bad for adcoms to consider?

 

[Athina]

volunteer experience can be used to gauge relative levels of altruism between applicants.

How so?

Candidate X folded blankets for 500 hours and therefore he must be more altruistic than candidate Y who only tutored for 50 hours? I don't see how that comparison is possible.

IMO, the only thing that volunteering shows is that someone is dedicated to getting into medical school. That's not a bad thing but it's not exactly altruistic.

 

[SpecterGT260]

How so?

Candidate X folded blankets for 500 hours and therefore he must be more altruistic than candidate Y who only tutored for 50 hours? I don't see how that comparison is possible.

IMO, the only thing that volunteering shows is that someone is dedicated to getting into medical school. That's not a bad thing but it's not exactly altruistic.

so according to you the word "experience" is synonymous with hours? "experience" is an all encompassing term and as such it means consideration to things like you suggest would be taken. and I said relative. you can be more altruistic than the next person even if both of you are jaded, cynical, A-holes who hate all people.

nobody is suggesting that volunteer time is black and white. but if it ONLY indicates someone with drive to get into school then how would someone who really DOES like helping people show this? by your logic these people couldnt exist

 

[AllDaWEI]

simple exposure to this sort of thing factors in as well. you guys are being too literal. even if applicants are begrudgingly doing this, there will still be people like the OP who are so opposed to volunteering that they plain dont do it. regardless of factors involved, volunteer experience can be used to gauge relative levels of altruism between applicants.

I did volunteer in order to get into medical school. I did three years in a hospital ER for four hours per week. That is considered a bare minimum here on SDN, and quit when accepted.

But are you really gauging altruism here, or are you just gauging people who know how to play the game?

Here is hypothetical: What if you have pre-med in the boonies at some small college who does not look at SDN or have a pre-med advisor? What if he is a very friendly person who always helps his friends and would have great bedside manner? If he never ends up volunteering (like many other great people you know who were never pre-med), does that make him less altruistic than someone who reads SDN or has good pre-med advising that is not a friendly person but only volunteers because they know they have to?

 

[scarshapedstar]

 

[Athina]

nobody is suggesting that volunteer time is black and white. but if it ONLY indicates someone with drive to get into school then how would someone who really DOES like helping people show this? by your logic these people couldnt exist

I don't think anyone needs to show they like helping people in order to get into medicine. No matter what job you do, you are helping people. It's not just medicine. The barista helps people by providing them their coffee, the janitor helps people by making sure their surroundings are clean, the pharmacist helps people by giving them the correct medication and so forth.

Unless someone is a sociopath, I'd have a hard time believing most normal people are anti helping people.

 

[SpecterGT260]

maybe i havent made it clear that I understand where you are coming from. but the overarching question is not REALLY to extract some ultimate truth from volunteer hours.

here is a better hypothetical - A pre-med writes in his or her AMCAS "I did not volunteer because I want you to understand that I am different from all of the people who are potentially volunteering just to kiss your ass". Nobody is saying that if you volunteer more you ARE more altruistic, what we are saying is this is the criteria that adcoms use to determine the level of altruism.

you two seem to be wanting to have the discussion of "but is that what it REALLY means", but that is beside the point and I don't have a long enough beard to be able to stroke it and get all philosophical

 

[AllDaWEI]

maybe i havent made it clear that I understand where you are coming from. but the overarching question is not REALLY to extract some ultimate truth from volunteer hours.

here is a better hypothetical - A pre-med writes in his or her AMCAS "I did not volunteer because I want you to understand that I am different from all of the people who are potentially volunteering just to kiss your ass". Nobody is saying that if you volunteer more you ARE more altruistic, what we are saying is this is the criteria that adcoms use to determine the level of altruism.

you two seem to be wanting to have the discussion of "but is that what it REALLY means", but that is beside the point and I don't have a long enough beard to be able to stroke it and get all philosophical

I completely agree with your point. Then maybe this criteria should be changed around since it is so flawed.

 

[scarshapedstar]

Okay I'll contribute a little. Not addressing anyone in particular.

Volunteer as little or as much as it takes for you to feel comfortable asking for a rec letter from someone in charge who will say that you're not a prima donna or a sociopath or a straight-up buffoon, and that you actually appear to give a ****.

If everyone at every place you've volunteered (including the patients) has been super mean to you and they never let you do anything cool and you have the worst luck when it comes to glassware and sharps and it was all super boring and so on and so forth, maybe you ought to think about whether the whole world is flawed or just you. 🙄

 

[SpecterGT260]

Im open to suggestions. many of us will eventually take leadership positions in schools and in the med community so there is no issue with getting the ball rolling early. from my perspective volunteering is a "bang for the buck" sort of criteria. you get access to clinical setting, - understanding what medicine is about, learn to jump through hoops, demonstrate a willingness to do scut work, and if it is all "out of the goodness of your heart" we can at the very least determine that you are not completely opposed to doing something for nothing.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Im open to suggestions. many of us will eventually take leadership positions in schools and in the med community so there is no issue with getting the ball rolling early. from my perspective volunteering is a "bang for the buck" sort of criteria. you get access to clinical setting, - understanding what medicine is about, learn to jump through hoops, demonstrate a willingness to do scut work, and if it is all "out of the goodness of your heart" we can at the very least determine that you are not completely opposed to doing something for nothing.

My one suggestion is to make volunteering a requirement, just like high schools have community service requirements for graduation. Set something small like 20 hours, and have AMCAS verify the experiences with official documentation sent from volunteer coordinators, citing both hours and if the pre-med did a satisfactory job or not. Now, how will this help? Well, I'm sure most pre-meds will go above the 20 hour minimum. But, since embellishing hours will become impossible due to verification, the number of hours being done by a majority of pre-meds will fall back down to earth levels. Yes, there will always be gunners, but for the rest of us, hopefully something like one hundred hours will become the norm. Before, embellishing 150 hours to 200 hours would not seem like a big deal. But if you hate the experience, 50 hours is a LOT of time and like torture! Also, there are many stories about pre-meds half-assing their volunteer experiences because they are showing their attitude of not wanting to be there. If there is a check-mark to show that they did a satisfactory job, then they would at least need to put in effort during this time, rather than half-assing it, blowing it off, or doing anything else deemed undesirable.

And this is how you would work to fix this issue. It gets high schoolers to do what they need to do, and makes it nearly impossible for them to lie about the experience also.

 

[IMSingular]

... Some of those students are physician's kids and they've had significant exposure through their parent's practice. ...

That is probably original sin: Physicians kids getting preference because they had "exposure" to medicine. To over come the lack of such exposure every one started "volunteering". It would be good if the medical schools out right say we have prerquist of 300 hours hospital/clinic exposure and 100 hours of shadowing whether it is volunteering or paid should be irrelevent. May be poor kid can get a job in medical field, while attending school, and that will count for him.

 

[mauberley]

One thing that I find very frustrating, as I have mentioned before, is how ADCOMs are like Santa Claus. They have a naughty and nice list, without even knowing an applicant's true intentions. If the pre-med starts volunteering too late, does too few hours, or isn't volunteering at the time of filling out the AMCAS, then it is a red flag to them. If someone has enough hours and has the activity labeled as "present," then they are very altruistic! Sometimes an applicant may be smarter in the way they time their ECs.

You keep making claims like this, but yet you also have said that you don't know how people on admissions committees think. 🙄

 

[MT Headed]

If there was a requirement to suck donkey dicks to get into medical school, there'd be a waiting list at every zoo across the country and this board would be full of posts telling other SDN'ers where you can get some "quality" donkey dick in lesser known areas.

Yeah, but would you eat a poop hot dog to get into your first choice school?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1007

We're talkin' foot long... would you?

 

[IMSingular]

Yeah, but would you eat a poop hot dog to get into your first choice school?

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=1007

We're talkin' foot long... would you?

Kind of question they also ask in an interview for a high finance job on Wallstreet. Any one who will eat poop shouldn't be admitted; it is so unhigenic. Hippocrat oath should be applicable the way you treat yourself.

 

[LizzyM]

That is probably original sin: Physicians kids getting preference because they had "exposure" to medicine. To over come the lack of such exposure every one started "volunteering". It would be good if the medical schools out right say we have prerquist of 300 hours hospital/clinic exposure and 100 hours of shadowing whether it is volunteering or paid should be irrelevent. May be poor kid can get a job in medical field, while attending school, and that will count for him.

Last year I admitted a janitor's kid who had worked as an EMT but had no volunteerism of note.

I've been known to decline (or place in waitlist hell) a physician's kid who has minimal volunteerism/med exposure other than the parent's (or parents') occupation.

 

[BA11]

I have a lot of volunteer experience and I really enjoyed most of the non-medical stuff. Coaching youth basketball teams was an especially fun and rewarding experience. However, the grunt work that I did during most of the medical volunteer activities really takes the fun out of it. I very rarely got to do much relating to my future career choice, a lot of patient files and helping nurses change sheets. Occasionally I'd get to feed patients or help transport them or help out with a procedure, but that wasnt especially common. I wish I could have had more patient interaction on a day to day basis, but it is what it is. It's a hoop you have to jump through to get where your heart wants you to end up one.

I absolutely loved my shadowing experiences, though. I got with three excellent physicians who are passionate about what they do and were completely open and honest about everything they think and do. I learned as much about medicine from them as I did from my undergrad courses and volunteer work combined.

 

[IMSingular]

Last year I admitted a janitor's kid who had worked as an EMT but had no volunteerism of note.

I've been known to decline (or place in waitlist hell) a physician's kid who has minimal volunteerism/med exposure other than the parent's (or parents') occupation.

That's commendable. I hope that is followed by all.

 

[Stumpyman]

that's one reason BS/MD programs are disappearing. Brown now has less than half the spots they had before; Northwestern's program size has decreased and lots of schools like Wisconsin have discontinued their programs altogether.

Is that really true? I thought they were increasing because of physician shortages in rural areas (and so some schools--not the big names-- open up these programs with affiliated medical schools in order to have their graduating students practice in a rural area).

 

[dmf2682]

This is silly. I did several hundred hours volunteering before deciding to become a premed and am now doing some clinical volunteering because I think it will give me an idea of whether or not I can be compassionate and work with patients. So far so good. Plus it's incredibly rewarding. The other day I got a child with Downs syndrome to tread water for the first time ever.

I didn't do any of this to put on an application, but I don't really care if someone else did. To each their own. I imagine each medical school is different too, in what they value, so there is no sense in getting wound up about it. So I'd say volunteer if you want to, but regardless if you're a fit for a school you'll probably do fine.

 

[Essee]

One thing that I find very frustrating, as I have mentioned before, is how ADCOMs are like Santa Claus. They have a naughty and nice list, without even knowing an applicant's true intentions. If the pre-med starts volunteering too late, does too few hours, or isn't volunteering at the time of filling out the AMCAS, then it is a red flag to them. If someone has enough hours and has the activity labeled as "present," then they are very altruistic! Sometimes an applicant may be smarter in the way they time their ECs.

I disagree. Take it from my anecdotal evidence but I know several stellar applicants applying this cycle and I've been fortunate enough to shadow many excellent doctors from top tier med schools. MANY of them have not volunteered a single day in the hospital. I remember one doc from JHU telling me that they got in by being themselves and doing what they were passionate about. They didn't need to go volunteer hundreds of hours in the hospital.
I don't believe clinical volunteering is a requirement per say. Premeds just need a way to show they understand medicine and would be a good fit for it. It just happens that volunteering is an easy way to do that.
If you can demonstrate that you have a passion/understanding for medicine, I don't see the issue with not doing hospital volunteering. I don't see it as a requirement.

 

[MilkmanAl]

I think volunteering should be a requirement, if you don't want to volunteer how altruistic are you really?

It is in response to those students who don't volunteer anywhere because they have a guaranteed ticket that adcoms come to the realization that students who demonstrate altruism are highly desirable students.

I always hear on these forums that volunteerism is the med school adcom barometer for altruism. While I don't doubt that's the case for the majority of schools, I find it completely absurd. I definitely did not volunteer to better the greater good at my own expense, and I would bet the farm that's the case for the vast majority of people applying. Altruism isn't a terribly important trait for doctors to have, in my opinion. I don't give a crap why my doctor is working, as long as he's doing his job well. In other words, you're placing a lot of value on a faulty measuring stick that's gauging a parameter that doesn't matter in the first place. Yet another miserable failing of the application process. Oh well, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that mess ever again.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I always hear on these forums that volunteerism is the med school adcom barometer for altruism. While I don't doubt that's the case for the majority of schools, I find it completely absurd. I definitely did not volunteer to better the greater good at my own expense, and I would bet the farm that's the case for the vast majority of people applying. Altruism isn't a terribly important trait for doctors to have, in my opinion. I don't give a crap why my doctor is working, as long as he's doing his job well. In other words, you're placing a lot of value on a faulty measuring stick that's gauging a parameter that doesn't matter in the first place. Yet another miserable failing of the application process. Oh well, I'm glad I don't have to deal with that mess ever again.

Exactly, while bedside manner does matter to an extent, I would much rather have a doctor who is an a-hole and very effective, versus a nice compassionate doctor who can not treat me as well. Last time I checked, most patients do not ask doctors whether or not they did community service.

 

[octupus]

I couldn't agree more with the OP.

Think about it this way, if clinical volunteering was required, but capped at 100 hours, I am sure the number game would be played very differently. This means that as long as adcom sees that you've done your part and gotten some sort of exposure, then additional hours won't (and shouldn't) count as a plus, I'm sure a majority of pre-meds wouldn't have gone up to 500+ hours, especially the unrewarding ones.

I am not saying that some of us don't enjoy volunteering and that volunteering isn't rewarding. However, I've had seen my fair share of volunteers who are really in it to rack up the hours. And because it is an easy way to input hours, they lack often the motivation to look into other volunteer opportunities because volunteering at a hospital setting is looked "highly upon".

This is where the problem lies.

How well spent were those 500 volunteer hours? Could those hours be spent doing more productive work? at more needed places? for those who actually need you?

 

[MrBird]

OP, you already know how I feel about volunteering at hospitals. It's bullsh*t. It's not really "clinical" exposure. There's a disconnect that you're trying to get across that LizzyM is not really picking up on. It's common knowledge many students who go on to med school volunteered in college because it was a hoop to jump through since everyone has it. She/He even said it:

Keep in mind, grasshoppers, that only 45% of applicants are admitted. If you don't wish to engage in an activity that adcoms seem to treat as an unwritten requirement for admission, don't be surprised if you are among the 55% of applicants who go away empty handed.

But do ADCOMs really think all of these kids giving them perfect answers about their volunteer experiences all did it because of altruism and not self-interest? :

It is in response to those students who don't volunteer anywhere because they have a guaranteed ticket that adcoms come to the realization that students who demonstrate altruism are highly desirable students.

I'm not saying everyone who volunteers is doing it for their app. But I guarantee that most do have some form of volunteering or other extracurricular activity that they were involved in to specifically be put in their application and not out of genuine interest. And that's why I understand your frustration - when it's obvious that most of these experiences are embellished and have been for years. Yet ADCOMs insist that they represent altruistic character, when actually it only reflects the students' ability and willingness to play the game.

 

[MrBird]

Also, what study shows that those who volunteered before medical school actually exhibited better bedside manner/interaction with patients?