What if you just DON'T want to volunteer?

[MrBird]

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No one is forcing you to do anything. If you're morally opposed to volunteering then don't.

Before I was in med school, I did feel forced to do it because everyone on here was recommending hospital volunteer hours and "learning" about how a hospital works, etc.

My issue isn't just that I felt like I had to do something that was unnecessary, time-consuming, and unpleasant. It's the idea that ADCOMs believe it's an unspoken requirement. And I see that as a serious, serious problem in the admissions game. The worst thing about it is that literally tens of thousands of kids don't even realize most of the volunteering they do is pointless.

I am willing to bet most of my peers in med school feel the same way as I do.

 

[Itisneverlupus]

You don't have to do anything in life.

 

[LizzyM]

Before I was in med school, I did feel forced to do it because everyone on here was recommending hospital volunteer hours and "learning" about how a hospital works, etc.

My issue isn't just that I felt like I had to do something that was unnecessary, time-consuming, and unpleasant. It's the idea that ADCOMs believe it's an unspoken requirement. And I see that as a serious, serious problem in the admissions game. The worst thing about it is that literally tens of thousands of kids don't even realize most of the volunteering they do is pointless.

I am willing to bet most of my peers in med school feel the same way as I do.

I am an adcom member. Adcoms believe that hospital volunteering or other exposure to medicine is an (unwritten) requirement for admission to medical school. What exactly is the problem?


What makes volunteering pointless?

 

[2012mdc]

I am an adcom member. Adcoms believe that hospital volunteering or other exposure to medicine is an (unwritten) requirement for admission to medical school. What exactly is the problem?


What makes volunteering pointless?

A large majority of people are only volunteering so they can put it on their app. It's just another part of the process. It doesn't measure altruism and I'd guess it doesn't predict future performance as a med student/physician especially since everyone does it. Volunteering really doesn't tell what you med school is like and definitely doesn't tell you what being a physician is like.

A large number of people only do it because they have to and since most do it, it isn't a way to distinguish applicants. I wouldn't call it pointless but it's given way more importance than it should be IMO especially looking back on it on my med school experience and being on an adcom myself

 

[AllDaWEI]

A large majority of people are only volunteering so they can put it on their app. It's just another part of the process. It doesn't measure altruism and I'd guess it doesn't predict future performance as a med student/physician especially since everyone does it. Volunteering really doesn't tell what you med school is like and definitely doesn't tell you what being a physician is like.

A large number of people only do it because they have to and since most do it, it isn't a way to distinguish applicants. I wouldn't call it pointless but it's given way more importance than it should be IMO especially looking back on it on my med school experience and being on an adcom myself

Here's what I don't understand. There are people on this thread that are claiming that volunteering DOES show altruism, and others say that volunteering is solely a hoop to get clinical exposure, and DOES NOT show altruism.

But if ADCOMs are saying it imperative to show ALTRUISM, then where does a Cookie Cutter show it? A Cookie Cutter will only do the basic activities. So if you have one getting into medical school with grades, MCAT, hospital volunteering, shadowing, and research, where does the ALTRUISM come from?

And if EVERYONE is volunteering, how do ADCOM decide who is or who is not altruistic?

 

[AllDaWEI]

I am an adcom member. Adcoms believe that hospital volunteering or other exposure to medicine is an (unwritten) requirement for admission to medical school. What exactly is the problem?


What makes volunteering pointless?

It's not that its pointless. You get something out of it, but after a few hours the pre-med will generally learn what they intended to get out of the experience. Pre-meds have turned this into a numbers game, so it becomes a race to see who can one-up one another with the most hours. And this is where the negative attitudes come from (assuming its the people who only do it for the app and will NOT do it after acceptance).

 

[MT Headed]

And if EVERYONE is volunteering, how do ADCOM decide who is or who is not altruistic?

I've been volunteering in a medical setting for five years, and a premed for two. That might have been a clue.

 

[notbobtrustme]

I've been volunteering in a medical setting for five years, and a premed for two. That might have been a clue.

If you put it on your app, by definition, it was not altruistic.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I've been volunteering in a medical setting for five years, and a premed for two. That might have been a clue.

Yes I agree with you. Anyone with long-term commitment long before becoming pre-med will show real altruism (mandatory hours for high school diploma doesn't count). Instead, my best guess is that ADCOMs judge altruism by timing. Too few hours, starting too late, or quitting before filling out the AMCAS will be red flags. This is just my guess.

 

[AllDaWEI]

If you put it on your app, by definition, it was not altruistic.

That's narrowing it down to the actual definition. For the sake of argument, anyone that was WILLINGLY volunteering before becoming pre-med is technically altruistic. But yes, for most part, altruism doesn't actually exist since people will always get something to benefit them from doing it.

 

[MrBird]

I am an adcom member. Adcoms believe that hospital volunteering or other exposure to medicine is an (unwritten) requirement for admission to medical school. What exactly is the problem?


What makes volunteering pointless?

I think 2012mdc answered these questions quite nicely.

If the main purpose of this is to gain exposure to medicine, why shouldn't physician shadowing just be made a requirement and end the trend of hospital volunteering altogether.

Shadowing is far more relevant to premed interest and doesn't require the sheet folding and water fetching and overall servitude to hospital staff.

Doesn't shadowing take care of most of the things you as an ADCOM are looking for?
- Knows what a day in the life is like
- interaction with patients
- hospital/clinic environment

 

[AllDaWEI]

I think 2012mdc answered these questions quite nicely.

If the main purpose of this is to gain exposure to medicine, why shouldn't physician shadowing just be made a requirement and end the trend of hospital volunteering altogether.

Shadowing is far more relevant to premed interest and doesn't require the sheet folding and water fetching and overall servitude to hospital staff.

Doesn't shadowing take care of most of the things you as an ADCOM are looking for?
- Knows what a day in the life is like
- interaction with patients
- hospital/clinic environment

Noooo!!! Because it will end the hospital's supply of free pre-med labor! Honestly, based on the small volunteer gigs I've done outside of pre-med, I came to realize that the hospital is the only place where volunteering isn't supposed to be fun, and the staff is doing you a big favor and you repay them with menial tasks done free.

I don't get it. Isn't volunteering supposed to be fun? Isn't that why people go out and volunteer? 😕

 

[MT Headed]

If you put it on your app, by definition, it was not altruistic.

It was altruistic when I started it. It was only after several years of volunteer EMT work that I learned that it might also boost my medical school application. I don't think my decision to pursue medical school in 2009 in any way diminishes the altruism of the service I performed since 2006. Or for that matter (now that I've held a med school acceptance for three months) the continuing volunteer service I performed today.

Maybe that's the real sign of altruism, volunteering after getting an acceptance.

 

[SpecterGT260]

i actually had a great time volunteering for most things. the non-clinicals could get kinda sucky at times but the ER stuff I did was pretty awesome.

 

[TACMON]

i think by not volunteering you send a non-verbal message that says "I do not like helping others at the expense of my time" We have loads of time, how you use it is your business, but someone will notice

 

[AllDaWEI]

i think by not volunteering you send a non-verbal message that says "I do not like helping others at the expense of my time" We have loads of time, how you use it is your business, but someone will notice

And that's the point of the thread. How someone uses their time should be their own business. Given the chance, most people would help others. Helping others does not necessarily have to mean racking up countless hours of volunteer activities. What you have said vilifies anyone who wants to spend their time as they choose.

 

[MrBird]

i think by not volunteering you send a non-verbal message that says "I do not like helping others at the expense of my time" We have loads of time, how you use it is your business, but someone will notice

Refer to Alldawei's post above this.

Also, what's the point then? For fear that I'm sending a nonverbal message that spend my free time doing things I enjoy that don't involve volunteering? That I need to volunteer because everyone else has it? <---Doesn't this sound like a problem to you? ( People doing things because everyone else has it on their app)

 

[SpecterGT260]

no. why does that sound like a problem?

 

[MrBird]

Because the point of volunteering is to help people through altruistic motives, not because you feel like you have to do it so it doesn't raise a red flag.

^If this is the case (and I surmise that it usually is/you seem to think it's not a problem) then taking the hundreds of hours of hospital volunteering into consideration is erroneous as it doesn't actually reflect anything substantial about an applicant.

 

[SpecterGT260]

that is what you would LIKE the point to be.

however if we have learned anything in this thread it is that the point is because adcoms want it.
they also want you to wear a nice suit when you come to interview. would you refuse on principle that you do not normally dress in this way and it is disingenuous to do so for the interview?

 

[AFMD]

No one ever has to vollenteer in a hospital to get into medical school. You can do vollenteer work anywhere and it'll still look just as good.
That being said, if you don't not enjoy doing ANY type of volunteer work you should seriously consider a different profession. There are plenty of ways for smart people to get money or prestige besides medicine. Business and academia are great fields for smart people who wouldn't enjoy medicine.
There are many physicians that are very cynical and do not enjoy their careers. They may have chosen the profession for the wrong reasons, and are paying for it now.

 

[MrBird]

that is what you would LIKE the point to be.

however if we have learned anything in this thread it is that the point is because adcoms want it.
they also want you to wear a nice suit when you come to interview. would you refuse on principle that you do not normally dress in this way and it is disingenuous to do so for the interview?

No, because dressing professionally to a professional exchange is appropriate and purposeful. Whereas faking volunteer experiences and feigning enthusiasm for doing something that is more unrelated than it is related to a physician's job serves no real purpose at all.

 

[MrBird]

No one ever has to vollenteer in a hospital to get into medical school. You can do vollenteer work anywhere and it'll still look just as good.
That being said, if you don't not enjoy doing ANY type of volunteer work you should seriously consider a different profession. There are plenty of ways for smart people to get money or prestige besides medicine. Business and academia are great fields for smart people who wouldn't enjoy medicine.
There are many physicians that are very cynical and do not enjoy their careers. They may have chosen the profession for the wrong reasons, and are paying for it now.

I agree. We're referring to the thousands of students that rack up 300+ hours at a hospital hanging out, helping nurses with chores, and moving patients.

 

[mauberley]

Pre-meds have turned this into a numbers game, so it becomes a race to see who can one-up one another with the most hours. And this is where the negative attitudes come from (assuming its the people who only do it for the app and will NOT do it after acceptance).

And yet, surprisingly, your ire is always directed at the admissions committee members about whose motivations you speculate wildly.

 

[SpecterGT260]

(@MrBird)
you are assuming the experiences are faked and universally not enjoyable.

your argument quite clearly centers on how genuine the motives are for volunteering. I could also say that performing service acts for a service based profession is appropriate and purposeful. at least every much as dressing schnazzy for a schnazz-fest is.... both behaviors can be seen as arbitrary and you could easily attribute worth to one as you clearly have for the other

 

[AllDaWEI]

And yet, surprisingly, your ire is always directed at the admissions committee members about whose motivations you speculate wildly.

But isnt just about everything on SDN speculation, except for what LizzyM says? Its obvious that there are many threads, including some on page one now, that stress hours.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Refer to Alldawei's post above this.

Also, what's the point then? For fear that I'm sending a nonverbal message that spend my free time doing things I enjoy that don't involve volunteering? That I need to volunteer because everyone else has it? <---Doesn't this sound like a problem to you? ( People doing things because everyone else has it on their app)

I think that's the biggest problem of all. I remember in the official Cookie Cutter thread, a poster asked why anyone would want to be called a Cookie Cutter? Well, I'm happy to be one because at the end of day, I spent plenty of time as an undergrad doing things I enjoy. I spent time with family and friends doing so many fun things! Then someone sitting next to in my medical school class sacrificed nearly all of their undergrad doing things to improve their application. In the end, what is the difference between us? We are at the same school, in the same class, getting same degree. How is the extra hundreds of hours going to help them now? They just wasted a lot of time doing things they did not want to do, only to get same end result.

And what makes this even sadder is that anyone looking to go to medical school KNOWS the kind of sacrifices they need to make. It completely takes away their 20s. They sacrifice everything so they can pursue a career helping people day in and day out. IT IS VERY DEPRESSING THAT ADCOMS LOOK SO UNKINDLY ON SPENDING FREE TIME DOING THINGS THE APPLICANT WANTS WHEN THEY KNOW THE APPLICANT WILL SACRIFICE YEARS OF THEIR LIVES ONCE STARTING. 🙁

 

[crimedawg]

A large majority of people are only volunteering so they can put it on their app. It's just another part of the process. It doesn't measure altruism and I'd guess it doesn't predict future performance as a med student/physician especially since everyone does it. Volunteering really doesn't tell what you med school is like and definitely doesn't tell you what being a physician is like.

A large number of people only do it because they have to and since most do it, it isn't a way to distinguish applicants. I wouldn't call it pointless but it's given way more importance than it should be IMO especially looking back on it on my med school experience and being on an adcom myself

Nicely said. It is just another BS hoop you have to jump through.

 

[MrBird]

(@MrBird)
you are assuming the experiences are faked and universally not enjoyable.

your argument quite clearly centers on how genuine the motives are for volunteering. I could also say that performing service acts for a service based profession is appropriate and purposeful. at least every much as dressing schnazzy for a schnazz-fest is.... both behaviors can be seen as arbitrary and you could easily attribute worth to one as you clearly have for the other

Dressing professionally shows you are willing to reciprocate the professionalism of your interviewer who is an extension of the medical school. Volunteering at the hospital and helping nurses with menial labor shows what about being a physician?

 

[235788]

I think that's the biggest problem of all. I remember in the official Cookie Cutter thread, a poster asked why anyone would want to be called a Cookie Cutter? Well, I'm happy to be one because at the end of day, I spent plenty of time as an undergrad doing things I enjoy. I spent time with family and friends doing so many fun things! Then someone sitting next to in my medical school class sacrificed nearly all of their undergrad doing things to improve their application. In the end, what is the difference between us? We are at the same school, in the same class, getting same degree. How is the extra hundreds of hours going to help them now? They just wasted a lot of time doing things they did not want to do, only to get same end result.

I think it depends on the school. I know some schools (wright state in my experience) focused heavily on my service (and lack of) during one of my two interview. Wasn't a big deal(I hope), because i wasn't scum bag steve and still did productive things such a research and work.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I think that's the biggest problem of all. I remember in the official Cookie Cutter thread, a poster asked why anyone would want to be called a Cookie Cutter? Well, I'm happy to be one because at the end of day, I spent plenty of time as an undergrad doing things I enjoy. I spent time with family and friends doing so many fun things! Then someone sitting next to in my medical school class sacrificed nearly all of their undergrad doing things to improve their application. In the end, what is the difference between us? We are at the same school, in the same class, getting same degree. How is the extra hundreds of hours going to help them now? They just wasted a lot of time doing things they did not want to do, only to get same end result.

this statement is completely invalid

it has already been stated by an adcom that they weigh volunteer experience when deciding to admit someone. by all rights the 100s of hours played a factor in that decision and perhaps you had something they wanted and were willing to overlook a lack of volunteering.
either way, whether or not it affects the decision has been established and is not on the table for discussion at the moment. basically what you said was 2 people took 2 different paths to end up at the same place. this does not mean that both people had the same opportunity or ability to walk the same path on the way

 

[SpecterGT260]

Dressing professionally shows you are willing to reciprocate the professionalism of your interviewer who is an extension of the medical school. Volunteering at the hospital and helping nurses with menial labor shows what about being a physician?

willingness to do scut work for starters.... a staple of med student and resident academic diet.
do you really not see how "dress code" has the same air of "arbitrary" as volunteering? neither of these are indicative of clinical ability down the road. yet you can make that argument in one direction and completely disregard it in the other?

at the end of the day, you are dressing nicely because it is what expected and for no other reason. reciprocation, appropriateness.... whatever. these things are largely intangible. you are checking a box on a list of expectations and nothing more. why should volunteering be held to any different set of expectations or requirements?

 

[AllDaWEI]

willingness to do scut work for starters.... a staple of med student and resident academic diet.
do you really not see how "dress code" has the same air of "arbitrary" as volunteering? neither of these are indicative of clinical ability down the road. yet you can make that argument in one direction and completely disregard it in the other?

Dress code and volunteering are two different things. You need to make sacrifices in order to volunteer doing something you hate. The time you dread and waste, and you also sacrifice time you could have spent doing more enjoyable things. When you dress a certain way, what do you lose when not being able to dress the way you really want to? Last time I checked, I wasnt kicking and screaming about not wanting to wear suit and tie.

Sorry if I took this one too literally. But one involves a big commitment, the other just sucks if you don't like.

 

[MrBird]

willingness to do scut work for starters.... a staple of med student and resident academic diet.
do you really not see how "dress code" has the same air of "arbitrary" as volunteering? neither of these are indicative of clinical ability down the road. yet you can make that argument in one direction and completely disregard it in the other?

Dress code has nothing to do with medicine. It has to do with appropriate decorum. A med school interview is no different from a job interview at Macy's. But Macy's doesn't make you volunteer as a t-shirt folder before you apply for the job.

You can't compare this to volunteering.

Also, regarding the willingness to do scut work...
That was my point earlier in this thread. It's all just to prove a willingness to play the game. But while scut work has clinical implications, feeding patients, bathing patients, and restocking the ER do not.

 

[MrBird]

this statement is completely invalid

it has already been stated by an adcom that they weigh volunteer experience when deciding to admit someone. by all rights the 100s of hours played a factor in that decision and perhaps you had something they wanted and were willing to overlook a lack of volunteering.
either way, whether or not it affects the decision has been established and is not on the table for discussion at the moment. basically what you said was 2 people took 2 different paths to end up at the same place. this does not mean that both people had the same opportunity or ability to walk the same path on the way

For the record, it's clear that volunteering is important to ADCOMs. We're just debating why that is so and whether or not it should be so.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Dress code and volunteering are two different things. You need to make sacrifices in order to volunteer doing something you hate. The time you dread and waste, and you also sacrifice time you could have spent doing more enjoyable things. When you dress a certain way, what do you lose when not being able to dress the way you really want to? Last time I checked, I wasnt kicking and screaming about not wanting to wear suit and tie.

Sorry if I took this one too literally. But one involves a big commitment, the other just sucks if you don't like.

you need to understand that the lines you are drawing are arbitrary. they are "different" only because you have defined boundaries about what makes them different. the two activities have "more" and "less" of various components, nobody is arguing that. but just because it takes more time to volunteer doesn't mean acquiring and donning interview attire is devoid of a time component. So your criteria is recurrence? scope? either way these are things that are arbitrarily defined because it suits you to compartmentalize this way (there was a pun in there.... my bad).

you don't necessarily get to define a classification system for everyone. If i choose to classify based on motive and intrinsic value to the exchange well....

Volunteering:---------------------------------------------------------wearing a suit
-required by ADCOM's--------------------------------------------required by ADCOMS
-enjoyable if you find something you like ------------------nearly ALWAYS gives me swamp ass
-gives me something to talk about to interviewers------gives me something to talk about if the interviewer likes my tie
-completed due to unspoken rule -----------------------------completed due to unspoken rule
-requires valuable time --------------------------------------------requires valuable valuables ($$$)


i guess I am just saying that your logic and rationale (as a whole, not just you in particular) which rejects the premises behind volunteering are also very easily applied to professional dress codes. if a contemporary med school said they would rather do interviews in sweats and comfy clothes would you say "SCREW YOU!" and maybe even up the anti by wearing a manacle? doubtful.... you and mr bird can continue to grasp at straws over this one but the bottom line is there will be many things you do for med school that don't have direct impact on the things you will do as an attending. so any argument about the motives for volunteering is moot and only has value when we discuss ideals.
and such discussions are fun too..... but thats all they are - idealistic

 

[AllDaWEI]

you need to understand that the lines you are drawing are arbitrary. they are "different" only because you have defined boundaries about what makes them different. the two activities have "more" and "less" of various components, nobody is arguing that. but just because it takes more time to volunteer doesn't mean acquiring and donning interview attire is devoid of a time component. So your criteria is recurrence? scope? either way these are things that are arbitrarily defined because it suits you to compartmentalize this way (there was a pun in there.... my bad).

you don't necessarily get to define a classification system for everyone. If i choose to classify based on motive and intrinsic value to the exchange well....

Volunteering:---------------------------------------------------------wearing a suit
-required by ADCOM's--------------------------------------------required by ADCOMS
-enjoyable if you find something you like ------------------nearly ALWAYS gives me swamp ass
-gives me something to talk about to interviewers------gives me something to talk about if the interviewer likes my tie
-completed due to unspoken rule -----------------------------completed due to unspoken rule
-requires valuable time --------------------------------------------requires valuable valuables ($$$)


i guess I am just saying that your logic and rationale (as a whole, not just you in particular) which rejects the premises behind volunteering are also very easily applied to professional dress codes. if a contemporary med school said they would rather do interviews in sweats and comfy clothes would you say "SCREW YOU!" and maybe even up the anti by wearing a manacle? doubtful.... you and mr bird can continue to grasp at straws over this one but the bottom line is there will be many things you do for med school that don't have direct impact on the things you will do as an attending. so any argument about the motives for volunteering is moot and only has value when we discuss ideals.
and such discussions are fun too..... but thats all they are - idealistic

Yes I took this one too literally. 😛

That's an interesting point. Anyone against wearing the dress clothing just is not too vocal then.

 

[SpecterGT260]

Dress code has nothing to do with medicine. It has to do with appropriate decorum. A med school interview is no different from a job interview at Macy's. But Macy's doesn't make you volunteer as a t-shirt folder before you apply for the job.

You can't compare this to volunteering.

Also, regarding the willingness to do scut work...
That was my point earlier in this thread. It's all just to prove a willingness to play the game. But while scut work has clinical implications, feeding patients, bathing patients, and restocking the ER do not.

i absolutely can. are you not reading all the ways they are similar? just because you find 1 dissimilarity doesnt invalidate the comparison. that is actually the POINT of comparisons. by your reasoning we could also exclude any bench research. it is unclinical....

you are defining things based on direct correlation to a perceived job. you dont think your resident will have you do things that seem like a waste of time? he/she will. whether or not it is right, appropriate, relevant, necessary... whatever.... that is essentially what we are talking about.

 

[MrBird]

you need to understand that the lines you are drawing are arbitrary. they are "different" only because you have defined boundaries about what makes them different. the two activities have "more" and "less" of various components, nobody is arguing that. but just because it takes more time to volunteer doesn't mean acquiring and donning interview attire is devoid of a time component. So your criteria is recurrence? scope? either way these are things that are arbitrarily defined because it suits you to compartmentalize this way (there was a pun in there.... my bad).

you don't necessarily get to define a classification system for everyone. If i choose to classify based on motive and intrinsic value to the exchange well....

Volunteering:---------------------------------------------------------wearing a suit
-required by ADCOM's--------------------------------------------required by ADCOMS
-enjoyable if you find something you like ------------------nearly ALWAYS gives me swamp ass
-gives me something to talk about to interviewers------gives me something to talk about if the interviewer likes my tie
-completed due to unspoken rule -----------------------------completed due to unspoken rule
-requires valuable time --------------------------------------------requires valuable valuables ($$$)


i guess I am just saying that your logic and rationale (as a whole, not just you in particular) which rejects the premises behind volunteering are also very easily applied to professional dress codes. if a contemporary med school said they would rather do interviews in sweats and comfy clothes would you say "SCREW YOU!" and maybe even up the anti by wearing a manacle? doubtful.... you and mr bird can continue to grasp at straws over this one but the bottom line is there will be many things you do for med school that don't have direct impact on the things you will do as an attending. so any argument about the motives for volunteering is moot and only has value when we discuss ideals.
and such discussions are fun too..... but thats all they are - idealistic

I see your point. But what you're saying is not what LizzyM is saying, and is not what we're assuming ADCOMs are saying.

I think we both understand that there is little intrinsic value in listed volunteer hours and it is in most respects becoming an arbitrary item on the application checklist for adcoms.
However, people are advocating that volunteering is a reflection of attributes (whichever you'd like to believe) valuable for a future physician and that is why it seems to matter so much. I'm saying what you're saying - that it has lost its value in that regard and that's the problem I have with it.

I suppose you could say I am debating ideals.

 

[2012mdc]

willingness to do scut work for starters.... a staple of med student and resident academic diet.
do you really not see how "dress code" has the same air of "arbitrary" as volunteering? neither of these are indicative of clinical ability down the road. yet you can make that argument in one direction and completely disregard it in the other?

at the end of the day, you are dressing nicely because it is what expected and for no other reason. reciprocation, appropriateness.... whatever. these things are largely intangible. you are checking a box on a list of expectations and nothing more. why should volunteering be held to any different set of expectations or requirements?

The smart schoools have cut back on true scut work which has no learning benefit and should be done by people paid by the hospital (like running around faxing stuff)

I see a bunch of volunteers around in the hospital I'm at now. By and large the majority of stuff I see them do doesn't help prepare them for med school.

I think part of the problem is that people have this idealized expectation of physicians. To be successful as a physician you don't have to be altruistic in the classic sense. You should be reasonably intelligent, hard-working, and enjoy what you do. A lack of desire to volunteer to do menial and uninteresting tasks doesn't mean one won't be a good physician.

 

[SpecterGT260]

I see your point. But what you're saying is not what LizzyM is saying, and is not what we're assuming ADCOMs are saying.

I think we both understand that there is little intrinsic value in listed volunteer hours and it is in most respects becoming an arbitrary item on the application checklist for adcoms.
However, people are advocating that volunteering is a reflection of attributes (whichever you'd like to believe) valuable for a future physician and that is why it seems to matter so much. I'm saying what you're saying - that it has lost its value in that regard and that's the problem I have with it.

I suppose you could say I am debating ideals.

lol then we are in violent agreement 😛

i bitched about the same things as a pre-med. but then I switched a few of my activities around, focused on the ones I enjoyed, and in the long run it really wasnt that big of a deal. maybe other people have a harder time finding volunteer activities or just need a few ideas from outside of the box.... but when I hear this debated I just think back to my own angsty self a little while back and think "yeah... I was whining about it just to whine"

 

[AllDaWEI]

The smart schoools have cut back on true scut work which has no learning benefit and should be done by people paid by the hospital (like running around faxing stuff)

I see a bunch of volunteers around in the hospital I'm at now. By and large the majority of stuff I see them do doesn't help prepare them for med school.

I think part of the problem is that people have this idealized expectation of physicians. To be successful as a physician you don't have to be altruistic in the classic sense. You should be reasonably intelligent, hard-working, and enjoy what you do. A lack of desire to volunteer to do menial and uninteresting tasks doesn't mean one won't be a good physician.

So true.

 

[MrBird]

i absolutely can. are you not reading all the ways they are similar? just because you find 1 dissimilarity doesnt invalidate the comparison. that is actually the POINT of comparisons. by your reasoning we could also exclude any bench research. it is unclinical....

you are defining things based on direct correlation to a perceived job. you dont think your resident will have you do things that seem like a waste of time? he/she will. whether or not it is right, appropriate, relevant, necessary... whatever.... that is essentially what we are talking about.

Well sure I do. But that's not what I'm trying to argue. If all volunteering is supposed to prove is that I'm willing to take orders, I think that defeats the purpose of altruistic activity.

 

[SpecterGT260]

The smart schoools have cut back on true scut work which has no learning benefit and should be done by people paid by the hospital (like running around faxing stuff)

I see a bunch of volunteers around in the hospital I'm at now. By and large the majority of stuff I see them do doesn't help prepare them for med school.

I think part of the problem is that people have this idealized expectation of physicians. To be successful as a physician you don't have to be altruistic in the classic sense. You should be reasonably intelligent, hard-working, and enjoy what you do. A lack of desire to volunteer to do menial and uninteresting tasks doesn't mean one won't be a good physician.

I agree. I am not particularly altruistic. My reward from the work has multiple facets

 

[SpecterGT260]

Well sure I do. But that's not what I'm trying to argue. If all volunteering is supposed to prove is that I'm willing to take orders, I think that defeats the purpose of altruistic activity.

agreed. so why don't we just stop considering it an altruistic activity?

 

[MrBird]

agreed. so why don't we just stop considering it an altruistic activity?

agreed. are any premeds/adcoms taking notes?

 

[SpecterGT260]

i doubt adcoms are unaware of this. even if we openly declare it non-altruistic, we have not established any change in impact for admissions

 

[MrBird]

i doubt adcoms are unaware of this. even if we openly declare it non-altruistic, we have not established any change in impact for admissions

Unless there's some way to convince 40,000 applicants to not include volunteering on their applications.

 

[SpecterGT260]

u know the crowd ur talking about right?

 

[MrBird]

u know the crowd ur talking about right?