What if you just DON'T want to volunteer?

[pre med 2014]

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I've seen my share of volunteer threads, showing both sides since my time lurking and being member on SDN. Typically, when you have someone that hates pre-med volunteering, the members for it will always suggest that they volunteer at a free clinic or place that interests them.

But, what if the pre-med has absolutely no desire to volunteer? 😕

This question never gets asked. Apparently, it is considered crime when a pre-med does something they want to in their free time. Pre-meds are definitely held to a double-standard. If they say they do not want to volunteer, then they will get lots of flak. Often you see SDNers asking if they can take time off, and then are told to do "productive" things. Clearly, having fun doing things you want to do is just not right, and can only hurt you in long run.

With all the **** pre-meds get on here for not wanting to volunteer, have you ever thought about your family and friends that have never volunteered before? Do you judge them or think they are bad people? Would they all make horrible doctors? I thought volunteering was supposed to be something that someone wants to do WILLINGLY. Why should it hurt them if they decide not to do it?

There is nothing more frustrating than seeing threads with people asking if they have enough volunteer hours or if they should still apply this year given a late volunteer start date? All of a sudden, SDN members say that this will give a bad impression to ADCOMs. SERIOUSLY? WHEN DOES DOING A "GOOD" THING HURT YOU?

Am I the only one who thinks this is $%&*#$ up? Does it not bother you that a "good deed" can work in so many ways to either hurt or help you? Since when should "volunteering" be forced? Is it so bad if you want some time to yourself working so hard to be a doctor? 👎

You don't need to volunteer if you have a job assisting patients and interacting with doctors and families. The experience is important.

One time there was a patient recovering from surgery, there was no nurses or doctors around and she tried to get up and leave the room but she was shaking violently and had IVs in her and it was pretty scary because she would have fell over, I had to take initiative and comfort/make sure she was sitting in her bed until someone came over to help her.

Obviously everyone on SDN would do the same thing regardless of whether they volunteer or not, but it's still good to experience these kinds of situations for yourself.

 

[AllDaWEI]

OP, you already know how I feel about volunteering at hospitals. It's bullsh*t. It's not really "clinical" exposure. There's a disconnect that you're trying to get across that LizzyM is not really picking up on. It's common knowledge many students who go on to med school volunteered in college because it was a hoop to jump through since everyone has it. She/He even said it:



But do ADCOMs really think all of these kids giving them perfect answers about their volunteer experiences all did it because of altruism and not self-interest? :



I'm not saying everyone who volunteers is doing it for their app. But I guarantee that most do have some form of volunteering or other extracurricular activity that they were involved in to specifically be put in their application and not out of genuine interest. And that's why I understand your frustration - when it's obvious that most of these experiences are embellished and have been for years. Yet ADCOMs insist that they represent altruistic character, when actually it only reflects the students' ability and willingness to play the game.

I know how you feel since I am same way. I agree with what you have written here. As a side note, is anyone bothered by threads I mention below? A lot popped up today. They are typically:

1. What is the average number of volunteer hours you should have?
2. Which volunteer experience will look better?
3. Should I volunteer or shadow?
4. When should I start/end volunteering?

Is anyone not bothered by these? Any of these thread topics show someone is clearly concerned about volunteering pertaining to application. If pre-meds were doing something because they enjoy, they never would make these threads! Somehow, everyone who flames me has no issues with these threads above.

 

[dmf2682]

I know how you feel since I am same way. I agree with what you have written here. As a side note, is anyone bothered by threads I mention below? A lot popped up today. They are typically:

1. What is the average number of volunteer hours you should have?
2. Which volunteer experience will look better?
3. Should I volunteer or shadow?
4. When should I start/end volunteering?

Is anyone not bothered by these? Any of these thread topics show someone is clearly concerned about volunteering pertaining to application. If pre-meds were doing something because they enjoy, they never would make these threads! Somehow, everyone who flames me has no issues with these threads above.

You seem to be contributing to those threads yourself. I don't see a problem flaming you and then helping others- it seems to be the thing for volunteers to do.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Oh and the insults directed at me prove the point of the thread. Volunteering is supposed to voluntary. If you ask someone to do something and they say no, they should not be judged because volunteering should be done by choice. I have people here attacking my character, and that is unwarranted. Volunteering is not meant to be forced, because if it is, it shows no altruism. I'm sure you wouldn't bash everyone else in your life if they've never volunteered. You can still be a good person and not want to clean hospital beds for free.

No one owes their time to anyone. If they do, then great. If they choose to use their time for something else, then they should be able to and NOT JUDGED for it. It's not selfish as everyone seems to think. So stop judging and putting yourself on high horse. Have you actually volunteered so extensively before being pre-med?

 

[EBTrailRunner]

I'm not saying everyone who volunteers is doing it for their app. But I guarantee that most do have some form of volunteering or other extracurricular activity that they were involved in to specifically be put in their application and not out of genuine interest. And that's why I understand your frustration - when it's obvious that most of these experiences are embellished and have been for years. Yet ADCOMs insist that they represent altruistic character, when actually it only reflects the students' ability and willingness to play the game.

👍

 

[dmf2682]

Oh and the insults directed at me prove the point of the thread. Volunteering is supposed to voluntary. If you ask someone to do something and they say no, they should not be judged because volunteering should be done by choice. I have people here attacking my character, and that is unwarranted. Volunteering is not meant to be forced, because if it is, it shows no altruism. I'm sure you wouldn't bash everyone else in your life if they've never volunteered. You can still be a good person and not want to clean hospital beds for free.

No one owes their time to anyone. If they do, then great. If they choose to use their time for something else, then they should be able to and NOT JUDGED for it. It's not selfish as everyone seems to think. So stop judging and putting yourself on high horse. Have you actually volunteered so extensively before being pre-med?

I'm not sure if you think I'm attacking you, I'm just pointing out some issues with your argument. I don't think anyone is saying anything about requirements. Maybe there's a perception out there, but not a hard and fast rule. Even the msar lists a significant percentage of folks who get in without any. What you're getting all riled up about isn't really an issue.

As far as me, I'm not really judging. For my high horse, well, I think I can be proud of my volunteering. For what it's worth I'm 29 now. I've been out of college for almost 7years, and have given an average of an hour per week to various charities. If I only decided to change careers last year, well you can do the math.

 

[mauberley]

Oh and the insults directed at me prove the point of the thread. Volunteering is supposed to voluntary. If you ask someone to do something and they say no, they should not be judged because volunteering should be done by choice. I have people here attacking my character, and that is unwarranted. Volunteering is not meant to be forced, because if it is, it shows no altruism. I'm sure you wouldn't bash everyone else in your life if they've never volunteered. You can still be a good person and not want to clean hospital beds for free.

No one owes their time to anyone. If they do, then great. If they choose to use their time for something else, then they should be able to and NOT JUDGED for it. It's not selfish as everyone seems to think. So stop judging and putting yourself on high horse. Have you actually volunteered so extensively before being pre-med?

Who was attacking your character? Serious question.

As for your posts, there never seems to be any productive conversation with you. This is my issue with your posts. Even though you may concede certain points by people who are trying to have a productive discussion with you, you don't seem to integrate those points into your overall view and modify the arguments you present in subsequent threads accordingly. I keep on reminding you that it's your whole application that gets looked at, that one's resume of activities are not looked at in a vacuum, and that the interview is one more opportunity to determine the real impact of one's activities and assess the personalities of the applicant -- altruism and philanthropy included. These things are safeguards to protect against the exact scenarios you describe, where a person is faking their application, but those points seemingly get ignored.

As for asking someone to do something and they say "no," I assume you're referring to another thread created by music2doc (I think)? The issue there is that the act of signing up to volunteer means that you are indicating that you will do an activity (assuming that the activity is within the scope of what you said you were volunteering to do).

 

[orangeblossom]

I hate the feeling that volunteer work is just another hoop to jump through, but I don't call the shots, and if the general "average" is ~150-200 hours of clinical volunteering, I'm jumping through that hoop because I don't want to be in the 55%. I do wish it were quality over quantity; at the moment, it seems like quantity? Check. Okay, tell me about quality.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Who was attacking your character? Serious question.

As for your posts, there never seems to be any productive conversation with you. This is my issue with your posts. Even though you may concede certain points by people who are trying to have a productive discussion with you, you don't seem to integrate those points into your overall view and modify the arguments you present in subsequent threads accordingly. I keep on reminding you that it's your whole application that gets looked at, that one's resume of activities are not looked at in a vacuum, and that the interview is one more opportunity to determine the real impact of one's activities and assess the personalities of the applicant -- altruism and philanthropy included. These things are safeguards to protect against the exact scenarios you describe, where a person is faking their application, but those points seemingly get ignored.

As for asking someone to do something and they say "no," I assume you're referring to another thread created by music2doc (I think)? The issue there is that the act of signing up to volunteer means that you are indicating that you will do an activity (assuming that the activity is within the scope of what you said you were volunteering to do).

Sorry I'm not trying to be unproductive. I'm just a bad arguer. This topic is like arguing politics. You have people on both ends who feel very strongly. On one end there are people who despise concept of pre-med volunteering, and then who are very proud of the volunteering they did. No one's opinion will be swayed, and I'm doing a bad job trying to discuss. 🙁

 

[Mornhavon]

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[AllDaWEI]

Slavery = work without pay against your will.

Volunteering = work without pay against your will that you can write about on grad school applications.

I believe the high school community service graduation requirement has gone to US Supreme Court on grounds for violating the 13th Amendment. 🙄

 

[Asp]

Volunteering is a form of social signaling. It says you're willing to jump through hoops to please your superiors. It's basically required.

 

[deleted380953]

I'm a firm believer (and I hope most are) of "do what interests you" mentality. If someone's hellbent against volunteering, they shouldn't do it. I would imagine that their enthusiasm wouldn't really reflect well come application and interview time.

People should keep an open mind on it though. I wasn't to thrilled about it either, but I found a spot at a children's hospital that has a lot of patient interaction, and I still enjoy it. I wanted to go into engineering before I started, so there's that.

 

[235788]

Also, what study shows that those who volunteered before medical school actually exhibited better bedside manner/interaction with patients?

none. Its just about playing the medical school game and showing your willing to do more than the other guy.

 

[235788]

I'm a firm believer (and I hope most are) of "do what interests you" mentality. If someone's hellbent against volunteering, they shouldn't do it. I would imagine that their enthusiasm wouldn't really reflect well come application and interview time.

People should keep an open mind on it though. I wasn't to thrilled about it either, but I found a spot at a children's hospital that has a lot of patient interaction, and I still enjoy it. I wanted to go into engineering before I started, so there's that.

You can't fake enthusiasm?

Your grandmother gives you an ugly sweater for your 18th birthday in front of your friends and you can't pretend to like it?

Its about the admissions game bud. Don't let that mentality be your demise.

 

[SpecterGT260]

You can't fake enthusiasm?

Your grandmother gives you an ugly sweater for your 18th birthday in front of your friends and you can't pretend to like it?

Its about the admissions game bud. Don't let that mentality be your demise.

NO! you slap that old woman across the face on principle!

 

[tantacles]

NO! you slap that old woman across the face on principle!

What? No! That's for when she gives you knee high white socks.

Ugly sweaters actually have uses. Ugly sweater parties are all the rage these days.

 

[235788]

What? No! That's for when she gives you knee high white socks.

Ugly sweaters actually have uses. Ugly sweater parties are all the rage these days.

haha exactly!

 

[Neurosis]

OP, I know exactly what you mean, why do we have to waste time doing routine/typical volunteering in order to feign altruism?

 

[mauberley]

OP, I know exactly what you mean, why do we have to waste time doing routine/typical volunteering in order to feign altruism?

Because the people who do like volunteering and are truly motivated by character qualities sought after by schools get picked and you won't? *shrug*

 

[LizzyM]

OP, I know exactly what you mean, why do we have to waste time doing routine/typical volunteering in order to feign altruism?

You don't have to do routine/typical volunteering.... you can assess the needs in your community, find an unmet need and do something to address that need. Or you can look around at what others are doing to meet the needs of your community and offer to roll up your sleeves and help because you believe in the cause.

As long as you have something (shadowing or employment, usually) that has exposed you to the good/bad/ugly of a physician's workday, the kind of volunteer work that you choose to do isn't crucial and need not be "routine" or typical.

 

[Neurosis]

Because the people who do like volunteering and are truly motivated by character qualities sought after by schools get picked and you won't? *shrug*

Hey, I'm sorry if I'm honest, I would rather be doing something I genuinely like to do than something I don't. And honestly, how many people actually volunteer these days (in high school and college and maybe med school) because they actually want to and not to polish their resumes?

 

[deleted380953]

You can't fake enthusiasm? Maybe it's not impossible to get into

Your grandmother gives you an ugly sweater for your 18th birthday in front of your friends and you can't pretend to like it?

Its about the admissions game bud. Don't let that mentality be your demise.

Well I'm not saying you can't pretend, but its helps if you actually like the sweater.

Your right, in that people can probably convince interviewers about the great time they had, but since volunteering itself is supposed to be selfless, that's where I get the feeling that adcoms want to talk to people who are genuinely enthusiastic about helping others for little to no gain.

I guess that's just naive thinking

 

[mauberley]

Hey, I'm sorry if I'm honest, I would rather be doing something I genuinely like to do than something I don't. And honestly, how many people actually volunteer these days (in high school and college and maybe med school) because they actually want to and not to polish their resumes?

I'm fine with your honesty. My point is that if you couldn't demonstrate a quality desired by med schools, what would you do?

Find a way to show it. LizzyM had some good ideas.

 

[notbobtrustme]

What about donating money.

Hypothetically, if someone with the means could donate a significant amount of money to a charity/cause/organization, would that count as an EC on AMCAS? Perhaps that person is extremely busy and can do more good by working and donating money rather than their time.

The whole time = committment line of thinking is flawed for that reason. Warren Buffet is, at least, a billion times more altrustic than all of this board put together yet he hardly spends any time volunteering. By virtue of how he spends his fortune, he can affect change in far more significant ways than us ladling soup to the homeless.

 

[IMSingular]

I am not totally against required volunterism, though it is an oxymoron. As I said earlier this came into being as a original sin of promoting the children's of physicians. Even now shadowing, especially a meaningful one, is much more conviniently arrengable if you are a physician's kid or close relative is a physician. What the board should do is require teaching hospitals to make available volunteering to the aspirants to medical schools. Following pros can be made for volunteering requirement.

1. It may be volunteering activity is not pleasent. However, as a physician you cannot choose, and accustomed to doing unpleasent activity. This, by the way, is unmentioned requirement of any job you will take.

2. Profession of physician is some what piculiar. You have to withstand unpleasent sights of patients in terrible condtion.

3. Physicians life style is to be on call all the time. If his patient goes into emergency he has to make himslef available ASAP.

4. Physicians have to communicate with patients, and this needs to be done on case by case basis.

5. Requirement of personal integrity and ethics is highest for the physician; many times it's a life and death issue.

Aspirants to medical profession need to obsreve these things by actual examples rather than reading list such as above. Student's shouldn't be just doing the volunteering and shadowing rather at the end of they should really evaluate themself honestly and see whether they have aptitude for the profession rather than just be concerned about monetary issues. They will be fine monetarily.

 

[kami333]

I believe the high school community service graduation requirement has gone to US Supreme Court on grounds for violating the 13th Amendment. 🙄

No they haven't, the SC declined has declined to hear them (there have been several). The lower courts have ruled in favor of the districts, saying that it doesn't violate the 13th amendment.

 

[dmf2682]

No they haven't, the SC declined has declined to hear them (there have been several). The lower courts have ruled in favor of the districts, saying that it doesn't violate the 13th amendment.

Makes sense. It's not forced and thus not slavery. No one says you have to graduate from high school. You could just as easily get a ged if you were that opposed to community service.

 

[LizzyM]

What about donating money.

Hypothetically, if someone with the means could donate a significant amount of money to a charity/cause/organization, would that count as an EC on AMCAS? Perhaps that person is extremely busy and can do more good by working and donating money rather than their time.

There aren't many pre-meds with large personal fortunes, are there? Asking other people for money can be an experience that one might list but I generally consider it more like leadership or club membership than altruism or service to the needy.

The whole time = committment line of thinking is flawed for that reason. Warren Buffet is, at least, a billion times more altrustic than all of this board put together yet he hardly spends any time volunteering. By virtue of how he spends his fortune, he can affect change in far more significant ways than us ladling soup to the homeless.

He gives a significant amount of his time as well to the formation of young people who may benefit from his advice. The Wall Stret Journal recently had a story about how he spends several Fridays each year with college students from around the county, and around the world, who come to Omaha to spend the day with him at his invitation. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203711104577199891216425590.html

 

[notbobtrustme]

There aren't many pre-meds with large personal fortunes, are there? Asking other people for money can be an experience that one might list but I generally consider it more like leadership or club membership than altruism or service to the needy.



He gives a significant amount of his time as well to the formation of young people who may benefit from his advice. The Wall Stret Journal recently had a story about how he spends several Fridays each year with college students from around the county, and around the world, who come to Omaha to spend the day with him at his invitation. http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970203711104577199891216425590.html

ah, I did not know that. Thanks for the link.

See what happens when you assume 🙁

 

[BHaus9]

If there was a requirement to suck donkey dicks to get into medical school, there'd be a waiting list at every zoo across the country and this board would be full of posts telling other SDN'ers where you can get some "quality" donkey dick in lesser known areas.

I, for one, would be doing this even if it weren't a requirement. If you're not enjoying your experience slurping the dingle, you should really try to find a donkey that's a better fit, and really engages you in the process.

 

[skactopus]

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[418865]

Seeing posts saying volunteering is just another loop to jump through, or something on that line to get into medical school kinds of makes me angry, sad, and disappointed about the future. while I see how clincal volunteering can be a drag (those with ER or hospital volunteering)..but doesn't it only make sense that u r exposing urself to how it feels like to be in a hospital setting even just as an observer?

how do future doctors (assuming that premed isn't doing medicine solely for prestige and money) have hard time to associate volunteering (aka helping others..forget about ER and clinical volunteering for now) with being a doctor? being a doctor is beyond a job right? coz u r taking care of those who otherwise can't function on a daily basis...why can't a premed find something to be involved with public health, mental illness, poverty and malnutrition something on that line? anyway, i don't want to lecture or teach anyone about altruism..but the sheer fact that many people consider volunteerism as simply hours to put in..I think that says a lot that what you are doing for volunteering isn't the right thing to do (not for med school but for u as a person)..our society sure as heck needs more volunteers and activists

 

[quiltlady]

When I see these posts from people who are unwilling to help others because they just don't feel like it, I wonder why they think medicine is a good career choice. What kind of upbringing did these people have which made them so self-centered? What will happen in clinical years when much of their time will be spent doing things they don't enjoy with people who are sick and unpleasant?

 

[notbobtrustme]

When I see these posts from people who are unwilling to help others because they just don't feel like it, I wonder why they think medicine is a good career choice. What kind of upbringing did these people have which made them so self-centered? What will happen in clinical years when much of their time will be spent doing things they don't enjoy with people who are sick and unpleasant?

You can help people without wanting to help them. Medicine, for me, is very appealing because of the problem solving and mental stimulation.

Just about everything in your life that is designed to help you was invented because of profit not because of a desire to help you. Doctors are no different. Hell, most doctors nowadays don't even take Medicaid patients and many are beginning to drop Medicare because it doesn't make sense financially to keep treating these patients. Like it or not, money drives far more decisions than the desire to help others altruistically.

 

[dmf2682]

You can help people without wanting to help them. Medicine, for me, is very appealing because of the problem solving and mental stimulation.

Just about everything in your life that is designed to help you was invented because of profit not because of a desire to help you. Doctors are no different. Hell, most doctors nowadays don't even take Medicaid patients and many are beginning to drop Medicare because it doesn't make sense financially to keep treating these patients. Like it or not, money drives far more decisions than the desire to help others altruistically.

If you like the problem solving and mental stimulation but not the patients why not go and get a phd instead?

 

[synthmonsterjax]

If you like the problem solving and mental stimulation but not the patients why not go and get a phd instead?

Money.

 

[mmmcdowe]

You can help people without wanting to help them. Medicine, for me, is very appealing because of the problem solving and mental stimulation.

Just about everything in your life that is designed to help you was invented because of profit not because of a desire to help you. Doctors are no different. Hell, most doctors nowadays don't even take Medicaid patients and many are beginning to drop Medicare because it doesn't make sense financially to keep treating these patients. Like it or not, money drives far more decisions than the desire to help others altruistically.

Medicine isn't like house, problem solving typically consists of figuring out how to get granny to be more compliant, not having hourly off the wall diagnoses. A lot of medicine is repetitive, your long term functioning in the field depends on other factors as well.

There are two types of anti volunteering/ECd premeds. Those who gripe and do it, and those who refuse to do it. We don't see the latter much on sdn, but they exist in great quantities. Willingness to "play the game" at least gives adcoms hope that the premed might have actually ended up getting something out of it even if the initial impetus was self centered.

 

[dmf2682]

Money.

Not all phds go into academia and not all MDs make bank. A phd researcher in big pharma could do pretty well for themselves. If you like problem solving but not people and still want earning potential I maintain going into industry is not a bad deal.

Hell, I've an ms in engineering and design jet engines for a living. It is fascinating work. If I stayed here instead of going to medical school I'd earn more between now and retirement. Why move? People.

 

[notbobtrustme]

If you like the problem solving and mental stimulation but not the patients why not go and get a phd instead?

I would, but there's no real future in a PhD anymore. Most of a PI's job isn't problem solving either, it's grant writing and administration crap. Plus, I do want to help people, I'm not someone who's only in it for the money. If I was, I'd go get an MBA or go study finance/business.

 

[AllDaWEI]

Medicine isn't like house, problem solving typically consists of figuring out how to get granny to be more compliant, not having hourly off the wall diagnoses. A lot of medicine is repetitive, your long term functioning in the field depends on other factors as well.

There are two types of anti volunteering/ECd premeds. Those who gripe and do it, and those who refuse to do it. We don't see the latter much on sdn, but they exist in great quantities. Willingness to "play the game" at least gives adcoms hope that the premed might have actually ended up getting something out of it even if the initial impetus was self centered.

As for the pre-meds that gripe about it, some of them, like I, quit as soon as they could without negatively affecting chances. Then there are some that actually get something out of it, enjoy it, and continue doing it. I think that's good. What stinks is the former still must make out the experience to be gratifying on PS and at interview. In this case, it is kind of funny what's happening. They are pushing students to lie, when they are trying to get into a field based on honesty.

Also I agree with what Milkman Al said earlier. I'm not sure why altruism is as big of deal as it is made out to be. How many doctors end up doing charitable care? It's great there are many who contribute to the world and their own communities, but what is wrong with the doctors that simply practice to make money? As it was mentioned earlier, a lot no longer accept medicare and medicaid, and good luck getting treatment at outpatient withou insurance or ability to pay. These doctors still do a fine job doing what they are supposed to do, treating patients. At the end of the day, it doesn't matter what the physician's motives are. If you are rushed to ER with your life hanging in the balance, will you actually care if the doctor is altruistic helping his community versus never having done any form of charitable care?

Yes it's good to have altruistic people, but lacking altruism doesn't make them inferior skills or even a bad person at that.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I would, but there's no real future in a PhD anymore. Most of a PI's job isn't problem solving either, it's grant writing and administration crap. Plus, I do want to help people, I'm not someone who's only in it for the money. If I was, I'd go get an MBA or go study finance/business.

Yes I think it's entirely possible to help people without doing any significant volunteer commitments. Doing free labor doesn't necessarily make you a good person. You can be a good person by doing good deeda toward people around you. You don't need to clean hundreds of hours worth of hospital beds or risk your life in a third world country to be altruistic. Given the chance to help, I think anyone who is not a sociopath will do it.

Therefore I do not understand this thinking on here that: no volunteering = heartless bastard.

 

[chiddler]

I never really thought of clinical volunteering as a show of altruism. Rather, I saw it as exposure to the demanding occupation you wanted. It shows that you know what you're getting yourself into and you enjoy it.

That said, some volunteer programs are useful. The vast majority of them suck...so much. Who would of thunk that putting stickers on patient charts for 4 hours at a time is clinical experience? But it's like my mother says. You read the chapter, and then you go to the lecture even though you know most of it already because there is a chance you learn something that you may have never picked up reading.

Though most of my time is spent stickering those damn charts, I've seen some very interesting things which is what volunteering is for. Even though it's an extremely inefficient way to get clinical exposure.

 

[JJMrK]

It's another hoop. It doesn't seem so bad if you find something you like, but like it or not you gotta do it to get in. Better get used to jumping; there are a lot more hoops ahead.

 

[Narmerguy]

I really see it as more than a hoop. A lot of college students, particularly premeds, can easily find themselves too busy to stop and do something like volunteering. Not because they're against it, or may never get something out of it, but because when it's the choice between another 3 hours of studying or 3 hours talking to homeless people, it's easy for our desperation towards grades to take charge.

The emphasis on volunteering by medical schools exposes a lot of really talented, and I think generally good-minded people, to a lot of social problems that plague this country. It allows them to talk to patients and other "common folk" in a way that you often won't have the time or comfort to do. Not to mention, a lot of places really depend on dedicated volunteers to stay afloat, and if that's part of the cost that applicants have to pay to before entering this field, I can't really be that disappointed. We'll just have to hold out that more of us get something out it than that.

 

[AllDaWEI]

I never really thought of clinical volunteering as a show of altruism. Rather, I saw it as exposure to the demanding occupation you wanted. It shows that you know what you're getting yourself into and you enjoy it.

That said, some volunteer programs are useful. The vast majority of them suck...so much. Who would of thunk that putting stickers on patient charts for 4 hours at a time is clinical experience? But it's like my mother says. You read the chapter, and then you go to the lecture even though you know most of it already because there is a chance you learn something that you may have never picked up reading.

Though most of my time is spent stickering those damn charts, I've seen some very interesting things which is what volunteering is for. Even though it's an extremely inefficient way to get clinical exposure.

This is a valid argument and some members on here view it solely as clinical experience rather than showing altruism (which flawed because cookie cutter applicants still get in with only hospital volunteering and no other). Two schools of thought come out of this. First is the pre-meds who don't really want to volunteer and just try to rack up as many hours as possible because to them more hours = more "altruistic." I was in this camp, and the ones with poor attitudes are who music2doc was complaining about in his open letter thread. The second school of thought are the ones who believe quality over quantity, and actually get stuff out of the experience. The biggest problem for first group is that they need to pass off this experience as being very meaningful. They need to lie and try to make their scut work look like it changed their lives. No one is expected to talk about how MCAT was meaningful to them. I'm sure an applicant can freely talk about hating the MCAT with interviewers and they will laugh. Interviewer then talks about hating volunteering, and fun time is over!

Both are considered hoops, but regardless of anything, you can't bash volunteering even though I'm sure you can openly hate on MCAT all you want. Two requirements, but two different standards!

 

[AllDaWEI]

I really see it as more than a hoop. A lot of college students, particularly premeds, can easily find themselves too busy to stop and do something like volunteering. Not because they're against it, or may never get something out of it, but because when it's the choice between another 3 hours of studying or 3 hours talking to homeless people, it's easy for our desperation towards grades to take charge.

The emphasis on volunteering by medical schools exposes a lot of really talented, and I think generally good-minded people, to a lot of social problems that plague this country. It allows them to talk to patients and other "common folk" in a way that you often won't have the time or comfort to do. Not to mention, a lot of places really depend on dedicated volunteers to stay afloat, and if that's part of the cost that applicants have to pay to before entering this field, I can't really be that disappointed. We'll just have to hold out that more of us get something out it than that.

The problem with the "quality" places is that you will have gunners and genuine pre-meds flocking to them. I tried to find free clinic gigs, but all had big waitlists! This leaves the crappy experiences to the cookie cutters. When getting treated like disposable crap, they get bad attitudes. That's why I hated it so much. I did a few events unrelated to pre-med and had a great time. See? Volunteering is supposed to be FUN and pepple need to want to.do it. When you have MANY pre-meds hating the experiences to the point of ditching or faking them altogether, it shows their just might be a problem.

 

[MrBird]

The problem with the "quality" places is that you will have gunners and genuine pre-meds flocking to them. I tried to find free clinic gigs, but all had big waitlists! This leaves the crappy experiences to the cookie cutters. When getting treated like disposable crap, they get bad attitudes. That's why I hated it so much. I did a few events unrelated to pre-med and had a great time. See? Volunteering is supposed to be FUN and pepple need to want to.do it. When you have MANY pre-meds hating the experiences to the point of ditching or faking them altogether, it shows their just might be a problem.

Exactly. That's the whole problem with this game. I just hold this profession to a higher standard than some others. That's why I am so peeved when people say "you have to jump through rings" for any job. Well what other job entails you do so many extra-curriculars that don't really pertain to your future profession, volunteer hundreds of hours folding sheets, taking vitals, bringing urine samples to the lab, and after all that pretend that you loved every minute of it during interviews?

It almost sounds like a horror movie about a sick social experiment in which people are forced to do something and brainwashed to think they enjoy it.

Some volunteering gigs are great. But hospital volunteering should be banned from consideration by ADCOMs and anyone who is stupid enough to volunteer 200+ hours of their life in a hospital fetching water, wheelchairing patients, restocking equipment, checking vitals or handle pee should never be allowed into medical school. It's just poor judgment on their part, on top of not being able to think independently and realize that just because other people do it doesn't mean it's useful.

 

[MrBird]

Volunteering is a form of social signaling. It says you're willing to jump through hoops to please your superiors. It's basically required.

Oh, so that's why tens of thousands of premeds should jump through these hoops? Because it proves they'll be subservient?

LizzyM echoed your sentiment in an earlier post. Is that really the case?

Why not just haze students at the interview? Wouldn't making them eat a poop hotdog be a quicker and just as dreadful proof of willingness to play the game as hundreds of hours of hospital volunteering?

 

[dmf2682]

Oh, so that's why tens of thousands of premeds should jump through these hoops? Because it proves they'll be subservient?

LizzyM echoed your sentiment in an earlier post. Is that really the case?

Why not just haze students at the interview? Wouldn't making them eat a poop hotdog be a quicker and just as dreadful proof of willingness to play the game as hundreds of hours of hospital volunteering?

No one is forcing you to do anything. If you're morally opposed to volunteering then don't.