What if you just DON'T want to volunteer?

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MrBird said:
That's why I am so peeved when people say "you have to jump through rings" for any job. Well what other job entails you do so many extra-curriculars that don't really pertain to your future profession, volunteer hundreds of hours folding sheets, taking vitals, bringing urine samples to the lab, and after all that pretend that you loved every minute of it during interviews?
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You've never heard of an unpaid internship? I think most liberal arts grads would have steam coming out their ears. And theirs last more than 200 hours.
 
In an unpaid internship you still learn about your desired career.
 
notbobtrustme said:
So we are going from clinical experience to altruism to now teamwork? That's going to thinner and thinner ice as we dissect this question about volunteering further.

So people who volunteer have better teamwork skills than those who do not? What about solo activities (aka volunteering at the ER)?

I wish adcoms would just come out and own it. Put out a hard requirement and specifically state that extra hours won't influence decisions on your application. That would be a great fix. Some schools already have a point system and my wish is that more schools would adopt this to add some sanity back to the EC arena. We are getting to the point where you need to open a 3rd world free clinic for battered women in order to stand out.
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Seriously.

Then, no one really gets rejected because they neglected to do one of the quite silly, unspoken, and yet, somehow fundamental requirements, and you can still let premeds drive themselves crazy trying to be super-unique in other ways.

And even more so, it sets the stage nicely for that inevitable point down the road where every applicant is expected to bring their collection of at least 10 insects from Indonesia to show they have what it takes (tenacity? prosperity? idk) to be a doctor.
 
duress said:
Seriously.

Then, no one really gets rejected because they neglected to do one of the quite silly, unspoken, and yet, somehow fundamental requirements, and you can still let premeds drive themselves crazy trying to be super-unique in other ways.

And even more so, it sets the stage nicely for that inevitable point down the road where every applicant is expected to bring their collection of at least 10 insects from Indonesia to show they have what it takes (tenacity? prosperity? idk) to be a doctor.
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Agreed. I remember someone made great analogy on a volunteer thread. It mentioned the example of having your child wash your cars every weekend before getting their license, in hopes of becoming a good driver. They are experiencing the car by washing it, and also doing a nice favor (altruism). But when they get their license, will they actually be better drivers based on their experience of cleaning the car? Also, how does doing the nice favor help them to be better? This is equivalent to volunteering.

Now instead of washing car, what happens if the child races go-karts every weekend before getting their license? They will likely be better drivers, but will still lack skills of doing the real thing. This is equivalent to paid clinical experience.

This shows that just being in the setting (around cars) will not make someone a better driver. Even though driving go-karts will likely somwhat improve skills, it will not be like the real thing. From example, it shows thay being around something will not help make you better at something. Experiencing something at a lower level may help improve skills, but how much? Also says how do skills get improved by being altruistic? At the end of day, when it comes to medical school, you will learn the skills necessary to be a doctor. The clinical environment may help somewhat. Based on example above, how does cleaning beds and showing altruism help???
 
MrBird said:
In an unpaid internship you still learn about your desired career.
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Eh, unless you're at one of those envelope-licking internships that have drawn Congressional ire recently. Grass is always greener.
 
if you don't want to volunteer, no one really cares and you shouldn't either.
 
Kj615 said:
if you don't want to volunteer, no one really cares and you shouldn't either.
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If no one really cared, ADCOMs wouldn't admit its unwritten requirement and lacking it would NOT jeopardize chances to accept.
 
theeeeeeeeeeeeee wheels on the bus go round and found! round and round! round and round!
 
Get enough clinical experience that people can look at your app and get a sense that you didn't just decide to pursue medicine on a dare, that you have some vague sense of how the profession operates and that you can handle being around patients.

Get some kind of extracurriculars, extraneous clinical volunteering and/or otherwise, so that you can trick adcoms into thinking you are a human being with a well-rounded personality and interests that extend beyond the library. If you are all about this sort of thing: fine, do more of it. whatever.

Get research in if you want to buff up your app, or if that sort of thing tickles your pickle.

Drink some beers.

The beers are the important part.
 
I've always believed it's the quality and sincerity of what you do more than the timing. At my school, everyone (and I mean everyone) does one of these cake cutter four hour per week programs for a year to build their resume. I hope adcoms look to see what you do more than how much you do it. Maybe I'm naive, but someone on the committee has to recognize filler when they see it.
 
Swagster said:
I've always believed it's the quality and sincerity of what you do more than the timing. At my school, everyone (and I mean everyone) does one of these cake cutter four hour per week programs for a year to build their resume. I hope adcoms look to see what you do more than how much you do it. Maybe I'm naive, but someone on the committee has to recognize filler when they see it.
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I mean, there's filler, and then there's filler that checks off a box.

That sort of thing is cookie-cutter stuff that won't wow anyone, but it will at least make them say, "well, they saw some patients in a hospital" and then move on to the next bit

Not everything has to amaze and awe. It'd be nice if it does, of course.
 
Swagster said:
I've always believed it's the quality and sincerity of what you do more than the timing. At my school, everyone (and I mean everyone) does one of these cake cutter four hour per week programs for a year to build their resume. I hope adcoms look to see what you do more than how much you do it. Maybe I'm naive, but someone on the committee has to recognize filler when they see it.
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If it were about quality, you would not see the focus on hours here at SDN. They are talked about non-stop. Also, the AMCAS asks for dates and average hours per week. If it were about quality, they would not ask these. As posted above, a dellow SDNer got rejected for only having a fee months in the ER and MISSION TRIP. Maybe thr mission trip was spun to look like life changing experience? If it was a quality life changing experience, why was student still rejected?
 
QuizzicalApe said:
I mean, there's filler, and then there's filler that checks off a box.

That sort of thing is cookie-cutter stuff that won't wow anyone, but it will at least make them say, "well, they saw some patients in a hospital" and then move on to the next bit

Not everything has to amaze and awe. It'd be nice if it does, of course.
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I think these experiences would amaze and wow just about ANYONE who is NOT pre-med. As for pre-meds, this is just another applicant, different day.
 
AllDaWEI said:
If it were about quality, you would not see the focus on hours here at SDN. They are talked about non-stop. Also, the AMCAS asks for dates and average hours per week. If it were about quality, they would not ask these. As posted above, a dellow SDNer got rejected for only having a fee months in the ER and MISSION TRIP. Maybe thr mission trip was spun to look like life changing experience? If it was a quality life changing experience, why was student still rejected?
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Well how do you expect people to talk about their volunteer experiences on the internet?

"I've only got 30 hours but MAN were they amazing!"

It's not like we're reading people's activity descriptions here. You could have 1000 hours and write the most boring AMCAS description in the world and adcomms might not even notice your commitment. Or you could do 30 hours, learn a lot, and have a great description detailing your revelations. But we don't know that here on SDN. We just ask about hours as a proxy for your commitment, learning, motivation, etc but it really doesn't always work. I'd like to hear a better way to discuss it though on an internet forum.
 
AllDaWEI said:
If it were about quality, you would not see the focus on hours here at SDN. They are talked about non-stop. Also, the AMCAS asks for dates and average hours per week. If it were about quality, they would not ask these. As posted above, a dellow SDNer got rejected for only having a fee months in the ER and MISSION TRIP. Maybe thr mission trip was spun to look like life changing experience? If it was a quality life changing experience, why was student still rejected?
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Actually, the most talking about the hours of volunteering seems to be done by you 😀. Many of us, including myself, have advocated quality over quantity. One person being rejected for only having a few months of volunteering hardly makes your case, especially since you are extrapolating that it was a quality experience and not a last minute effort to acquire hours, which would argue the contrary (hours are not sufficient).

I would also point out that medical missions can be a double edged sword when not wielded appropriately. A pre-meds definition of quality ("oh my gawds I got to do surgereeez! I can haz MD now?") is not necessarily the same as an adcoms.
 
mmmcdowe said:
Actually, the most talking about the hours of volunteering seems to be done by you 😀. Many of us, including myself, have advocated quality over quantity. One person being rejected for only having a few months of volunteering hardly makes your case, especially since you are extrapolating that it was a quality experience and not a last minute effort to acquire hours, which would argue the contrary (hours are not sufficient).

I would also point out that medical missions can be a double edged sword when not wielded appropriately. A pre-meds definition of quality ("oh my gawds I got to do surgereeez! I can haz MD now?") is not necessarily the same as an adcoms.
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LOLZ! Nice take on the mission trips! :laugh:

You bring up an interest point about hours. Starting too late you say looks bad because it seems last ditch effort to rack up hours. That is the point I'm trying to argue. You are correct that I dont know whether the poster had a quality experience or not...

But one thing I DO know is that this poster was doing an activity that is meant to help the.community, and devoting a few months of their time to do so. Any normal person would be pleasantly surprised by this and admire it. Only can an ADCOM, as you mentioned, see this as something like a last ditch effort to rack up hours. Always great to see helping out the community as a double-edged sword that can hurt you! Only in medical school admissions (and maybe Vegas)! 😀
 
AllDaWEI said:
LOLZ! Nice take on the mission trips! :laugh:

You bring up an interest point about hours. Starting too late you say looks bad because it seems last ditch effort to rack up hours. That is the point I'm trying to argue. You are correct that I dont know whether the poster had a quality experience or not...

But one thing I DO know is that this poster was doing an activity that is meant to help the.community, and devoting a few months of their time to do so. Any normal person would be pleasantly surprised by this and admire it. Only can an ADCOM, as you mentioned, see this as something like a last ditch effort to rack up hours. Always great to see helping out the community as a double-edged sword that can hurt you! Only in medical school admissions (and maybe Vegas)! 😀
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On the contrary, sending untrained pre-meds to provide medical care beyond their knowledge or expertise in exchange for a couple grand is not necessarily in a community's best interest. Even if there is a net gain for the community, that doesn't make it a responsible action on the part of the pre-med willing to engage in doing it. That is why it can be a double edged sword, because it could be interpreted as an lack of maturity to know one's limits or alternatively as unethical because you are taking advantage of a community that is so in need that even a pre-meds help (and money) is worth the dangers of receiving care from the untrained.

Further, if you said "hey I just donated 3 months of my life for the good of community", then absolutely that would be looked upon positively by "anyone else by an adcom". If you were to say "I only donated 3 months of my life to get into medical school by pretending I did it for the good of the community", then people would probably NOT be impressed by it and would feel similarly to the adcom. Just because the community is naive to the motives of the premed does not mean that the adcom is wrong to interpret actions in a different context.

Now before you pounce on that and say "this is exactly why pre-meds shouldn't have to volunteer", let me counter by saying the HOPE is that the result of the volunteering "under duress" will be "I started out donating my 3 months of my life to get into medical school, but I actually found it to be a very enlightening experience that demonstrated to me the intrinsic reward of serving the needy and given the opportunity to go back I would still do it even if it wasn't necessary to get into medical school"
 
mmmcdowe said:
On the contrary, sending untrained pre-meds to provide medical care beyond their knowledge or expertise in exchange for a couple grand is not necessarily in a community's best interest. Even if there is a net gain for the community, that doesn't make it a responsible action on the part of the pre-med willing to engage in doing it. That is why it can be a double edged sword, because it could be interpreted as an lack of maturity to know one's limits or alternatively as unethical because you are taking advantage of a community that is so in need that even a pre-meds help (and money) is worth the dangers of receiving care from the untrained.

Further, if you said "hey I just donated 3 months of my life for the good of community", then absolutely that would be looked upon positively by "anyone else by an adcom". If you were to say "I only donated 3 months of my life to get into medical school by pretending I did it for the good of the community", then people would probably NOT be impressed by it and would feel similarly to the adcom. Just because the community is naive to the motives of the premed does not mean that the adcom is wrong to interpret actions in a different context.

Now before you pounce on that and say "this is exactly why pre-meds shouldn't have to volunteer", let me counter by saying the HOPE is that the result of the volunteering "under duress" will be "I started out donating my 3 months of my life to get into medical school, but I actually found it to be a very enlightening experience that demonstrated to me the intrinsic reward of serving the needy and given the opportunity to go back I would still do it even if it wasn't necessary to get into medical school"
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I definitely agree with you hundred percent on mission trips. Also, the last statement I think is a good thing. I'm not saying volunteering in itaelf is bad. If pre-meds can find.great opportunities to do more than scut work and give back to community, then great! It's always good when that happens.

As for the rest, let me ask you this, if you have hundreds of applicants saying how amazing volunteering was and how lives were changed, how do the ADCOMs decide who ia genuine or not? That is the million dollar question. :shrug:
 
AllDaWEI said:
I definitely agree with you hundred percent on mission trips. Also, the last statement I think is a good thing. I'm not saying volunteering in itaelf is bad. If pre-meds can find.great opportunities to do more than scut work and give back to community, then great! It's always good when that happens.

As for the rest, let me ask you this, if you have hundreds of applicants saying how amazing volunteering was and how lives were changed, how do the ADCOMs decide who ia genuine or not? That is the million dollar question. :shrug:
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My money is on that admissions committees will be able to sniff out who's bsing and who isn't. Thousands of candidates over several years means lots of practice. Maybe a few will sneak through but it's probably better than you think.
 
seen a lot of people go to probationary or banned status since starting here lol. and i'm pretty sure I come off stronger than most of them so I am curious which lines were crossed 🙂
 
dmf2682 said:
My money is on that admissions committees will be able to sniff out who's bsing and who isn't. Thousands of candidates over several years means lots of practice. Maybe a few will sneak through but it's probably better than you think.
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Exactly.
 
mmmcdowe said:
Exactly.
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Yes it is pretty obvious though. In theory, it seems so wrong to question one's altruistic motives. It is kind of like if I hold a door for a woman (good deed), and then she gets angry saying that I only held the door to get in her pants. This sounds pretty messed up, and if this occured in real life, we wouls be shocked. 😱

But this may be happening with ADCOMs, who judge volunteerism. Lets not forget in theory volunteerism is doing things selflessly because you want to. By making judgements, arent ADCOMs admitting that they think some applicants are BSing it, thus admitting that some applicants may be volunteering because they feel required. Just my guess, but seeing it as a double-edged sword and applicant's experiences, this is what they are doing.
 
i barely had any clinical volunteering on my app because i didn't have the the time to waste to deliver tests/clean beds/etc. (had to graduate early, juggle a job, etc. for financial reasons) i did do volunteer work that *I* genuinely enjoyed, looked forward to, and was willing to donate my time to (which i think is the purpose of volunteering... showing that you're willing to give up some of your precious time for others). i got several interviews/acceptances, and at all of them, whenever i talked about the volunteer work i did, they all told me that it was really obvious i enjoyed the experience / got a lot out of it. so i think that clinical volunteering isn't required at all. granted, i did get a ton of rejections too (but isn't that the nature of the game?)

i will caveat that i had clinical exposure in other ways (shadowing primarily) so they couldn't use the argument of "oh you don't know what it *really* means to be a doctor if you're not volunteering in the hospital". honestly, i don't think doing scut work really shows you what it means to be a doctor anyway. also some people might argue that doing that teaches you humility, but i got a ton of that working retail for 3+ years haha.
 
velleityx said:
i barely had any clinical volunteering on my app because i didn't have the the time to waste to deliver tests/clean beds/etc. (had to graduate early, juggle a job, etc. for financial reasons) i did do volunteer work that *I* genuinely enjoyed, looked forward to, and was willing to donate my time to (which i think is the purpose of volunteering... showing that you're willing to give up some of your precious time for others). i got several interviews/acceptances, and at all of them, whenever i talked about the volunteer work i did, they all told me that it was really obvious i enjoyed the experience / got a lot out of it. so i think that clinical volunteering isn't required at all. granted, i did get a ton of rejections too (but isn't that the nature of the game?)
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Likewise, nobody ever told me that my free clinic gig wasn't scutty enough. Then again, the fact that I managed to land such a great volunteer opportunity proves that I am a cutthroat gunner, so I might be lying about this. 😉
 
AllDaWEI said:
Yes it is pretty obvious though. In theory, it seems so wrong to question one's altruistic motives. It is kind of like if I hold a door for a woman (good deed), and then she gets angry saying that I only held the door to get in her pants. This sounds pretty messed up, and if this occured in real life, we wouls be shocked. 😱

But this may be happening with ADCOMs, who judge volunteerism. Lets not forget in theory volunteerism is doing things selflessly because you want to. By making judgements, arent ADCOMs admitting that they think some applicants are BSing it, thus admitting that some applicants may be volunteering because they feel required. Just my guess, but seeing it as a double-edged sword and applicant's experiences, this is what they are doing.
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Does the amount of speculation you engage in on this topic warrant the energy you're expending?

For your first point about the holding of the door, I absolutely would not be surprised at non-positive reactions. The are lots of people in this world and a lot of ways to see even such a simple act.
 
mauberley said:
Does the amount of speculation you engage in on this topic warrant the energy you're expending?

For your first point about the holding of the door, I absolutely would not be surprised at non-positive reactions. The are lots of people in this world and a lot of ways to see even such a simple act.
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Yes it's speculation but not entirely unfounded. Just about anything on SDN is speculation, as I've said before. I expend energy because this is something I care about. You post in other threads as well. I can tell there is probably something that really bothers you about this topic? 😕
 
AllDaWEI said:
Yes it's speculation but not entirely unfounded. Just about anything on SDN is speculation, as I've said before. I expend energy because this is something I care about. You post in other threads as well. I can tell there is probably something that really bothers you about this topic? 😕
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You care about it, but what productive things are you trying to accomplish? I reply to you because I see you post a lot about it, but I don't understand what your point is and I'm trying to help you reach a better understanding of the process. Especially when I see what I consider to be a lot of reasonable rebuttals to your arguments, but as I've posted before in response to you, you never seem to integrate them into your overall argument. As I and others have already done what we can in response to your points, all that's left is to keep you honest when you seem to repeat the same argument that's already been discussed ad nauseum.
 
I agree with the OP on most of these issues. Unfortunately, by adding a clinical volunteer requirement, all ADCOMS are doing is selecting for students who are the best bull****ters. I know some students at my school (accepted at md and md/phd programs) who have said

1. "Hell no, I would never volunteer, I just do it to go to med school."
2. "I want to become a doctor so I can make a lot of money and be well respected."

I also know a student who has been caught forging her graded exam so that she can get a few points back (half of intro bio exams were photocopied by the profs)

This person founded a non-profit organization, just so they can get into medical school. I also know two other people who have done this type of thing, just so they can get into med/business schools. (They've told me this, I'm not just assuming)

I think it's very naive to assume that everyone who volunteers is doing it because they love it or are altruistic. It's also naive to assume that students who don't volunteer or don't want to volunteer are bad people. Some of my friends who are honest about the reasons for going into medicine (good money, love science, intrigued by medicine) are some of the kindest people I know. Not everyone has an active "go out and do good" attitude. First, some cultures just don't place a lot of emphasis on that, but that doesn't mean those people don't try to help people when they're asked.

Plus, College students need money. Most people would like to make money in the time they're not in classes, doing homework, or playing a sport. Those are just the facts. Everyone needs to get off their high horses and stop idealizing physicians. If physicians were all truly altruistic, more of them would accept medicaid/ medicare.
 
Play the game or get played. Go volunteer and learn something while you're out. I don't care if you don't want to do it. It's a right of passage and almost everyone that had spent significant time volunteering come out a better person with a deeper appreciation for the world.

Volunteering isn't supposed to be a painful jail sentence imposed against people's will.

Kids these days.
 
littlealex said:
Play the game or get played. Go volunteer and learn something while you're out. I don't care if you don't want to do it. It's a right of passage and almost everyone that had spent significant time volunteering come out a better person with a deeper appreciation for the world.

Volunteering isn't supposed to be a painful jail sentence imposed against people's will.

Kids these days.
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Funny you mention this. Last time I checked, community service is imposed on convicted criminals.
 
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