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What is holistic medicine

Discussion in 'Medical Students - DO' started by Henry, Mar 19, 1999.

  1. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    After reading the posting of what is autocrine and paracrine, I want to post this fundalmental question and see how others will reponse.

    I want to see how dogboy and JONM can give a thorough answer.

    Can you explain that easy term by merely looking in a text book or dictionary?

    This is a challenge, you guys try it.

    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited 03-21-99).]
     
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  3. That's DOGBOY with capital letters Henry. I won't lower myself to answer a question that you should very well know yourself if you are going to be a physician.
     
  4. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Can't accept a challenge? Can't look up in a dictionary?
     
  5. JONM

    JONM Member
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    I wonder what your definition of "a thorough answer" is.

    The definition is dependent on the source. If you believe one source more than another, then you may believe in a different definition than someone else's definition.

    If you name a source for me, I will look the word up for you and define it for you as that source defines it.

    If you are asking me to define it...then that is a different question entirely.

    You should not offer challenges involoving language in a language that you have not mastered. Words are powerful and their interpretations are infinite. (Autocrine vs. paracrine) is not comparable to (holistic medicine vs. any other type of medicine).

    Can you tell me why?



    [This message has been edited by JONM (edited 03-25-99).]
     
  6. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Hi JONM

    Your comments is very good and constructive this time. This should be the way we communicate as colleague and professionals. I receive the critique with respect and hope that our future conversation will keep at this level.

    Thank you

     
  7. IndiePop

    IndiePop New Member

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    henry

    i believe that you are an imbecile. your postings do not persuade anyone to pursue or even respect Osteopathic Medicine. Instead, your improper grasp of the languange and easily destroyed arguments only make one believe that DOs are dumb. Please stop posting. Immediately, I think DO applications would go up.

    -IndiePop, DO2002
     
  8. Doreen

    Doreen Member
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    To Indiepop,
    I would just like to state that Henry came to America during either high school or college (correct me if I'm wrong, Henry) so English is not his first language. Obviously he is not dumb or else the admissions committee at his med school would not have accepted him. I speak french and spanish fluently, but I know that I quite often make mistakes when I try to write correctly in either foreign language form.
    I currently volunteer with a clinical assistant professor at Nova. A patient with muscular dystrophy thought that I was a med student and told me that what makes a good physician is not where she/he went to school or whether or not he/she received an A or B in Biochemistry; what really makes a great doctor is COMPASSION. Please try to remember why you went to med school in the first place before you put someone down in order to boost your ego.
     
  9. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    IndiePop

    May be you have not get into the other thread and see what happen in those postings. My response in here is the result of the previous discussion.

    I don't agree with your opinion because I have many postings that help promote and defense osteopathic medicine.

    I have no intention to make people feel that DOs are dumb.

    To my believe, people that enjoy to insult or to make others feel inferior are the one that are destroying the DO repuatation in this forum.

    If my postings here can indeed reduce the applications to all DO schools next year, I will be very surprise. Please don't exaggerate. It is kind of funny and your statement is very mis-leading.

    "Easily destroyed arguments", which one?




     
  10. NickCVM

    NickCVM Senior Member
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    Hey Doreen, guess what - I'm French, so we can probably speek in French if you want!
    Comment ca va? ne fait pas attention a tous ces cretins. Ils ne font que critiquer de toute facon, que pour une seule raison - Ils n'ont rien de mieux a faire!
    A plus
    --Nicolas--
    WesternU'03
     
  11. Doreen

    Doreen Member
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    Allo Nicolas,
    Je vois que tu parles tres bien le francais. Tu as raison, ces cretins n'ont rien a faire! Nous pourrons nous communiquer en anglais. Au revoir.
     
  12. AHHHHHHH!!!! enough with the compassion angle. Yes it is a very important aspect of medicine, but why do most osteopathic postings harp on the fact that DO students are so much more compassionate than MD students and the education you receive while in DO school makes you so much more compassionate when practicing medicine. It's just not true. A truck driver, gas attendent, construction worker, my grandmother can all be compassionate but I sure wouldn't want them treating me as a patient. I would much rather have a doctor who is intellectually brilliant to one who is the most compassionate person in the world but lacks the ability to be a competent physician. I feel the postings in this forum make osteopahtic medical students sound like they know they are academically or intellectually inferior, which just isn't true. By the way, indiepop may have been a little harsh with Henry but Henry shouldn;t get so angry with everyone. You are setting yourself up for attack.
     
  13. Doreen

    Doreen Member
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    I agree with what the patient with muscular dystrophy said about it not mattering to a patient where one went to med school. Any med school in the U.S. can give you a good education, whether private or public, osteopathic or allopathic, as long as you put the effort to be the best that you can be.
    This patient told me that he has been to so many "brilliant" doctors who were so rude to him and treated him like "crap." He has a very rare form of MS where only 1 in 3 million have his type of MS so he is seen as a "test subject" rather than a human being.
    Medical schools don't teach compassion. I believe one should have this trait before one even considers applying to any health-care related field. Of course, we should be competent physicians (I don't want to harm my patients!) but Indiepop's remarks were a bit harsh, as "DOGBOY" stated, which is why I had to respond with the big "C" word.
    In my opinion, the best doctor would have a high I.Q. and a high E.Q. (emotional quotient) as well.
     
  14. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Hi Doreen,

    I came to this country when I was in high school.

    I am certainly being "Pick On" by particular people in this forum. There are others that have made mistakes in their posting and not being called as "imbecile"

    However, I am not "Angry" as Dogboy has stated. Being a minority in this country, I learn how to tolerate remarks make by others. Discrimination is what I experience everyday . However,I am not standing still without response. In fact, I can watching everone's reaction.

    There are discrimination everywhere and if I can get angry so easily, I don't think I can ever get into medical school.

    Dogboy, I am not angry and don't try to intrepret my feelings. Getting an A in all your classes are what your concern with, not being compassionate.

    Being a compassionate doctor is what you will neglect. So if your neglect the feelings of your patients, how could you know my emotion status? Am I really angry? How can you tell? Are you contradicting yourself? I believe you have to improve your "people skill" before you can even tell if I am angry or not.

    Indeed, I come to medical school to train what it need to be a doctor. Furthermore, I am fine tuning my interpersonal skills so I can enhance my medical practice in the future.

    The purpose that I send this posting is to ask others to input their knowledge about holistic medicine. In fact, I am expecting Dogboy and JONM to give me more input. Both of you have been doing "quite a job" in another thread. However, when it comes to real a challenge, personal attack is what I received. Especially being labeled as "imbecile" by indiePop, and "Angry" by Dogboy. Is that all you are capable of?

    Academic challenge should receive academic criticism. Leave all your peronal attack at home.


    Dogboy, I am not setting this up for personal attack, in fact, this thread is for academic comments and criticism. If there should be any comments, should be on an academic point of view. Since you, Dogboy, stated that this forum has made others to think osteopathic medicine very inferior, you can initate the improvment.

    Knowing what is "Holistic medicine" is a crucial part of an osteopathic physician. Share your knowledge and improve this froum right here. Can you take that challenge?

    I am certain that there are many premed students are reading this forum, let them know what is holistic medicine. How about that?



    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited 03-28-99).]
     
  15. OH Henry my Henry, I tried. I really did to give you the benefit of the doubt. However you insist on becoming angrier and more frustrated in each subsequent post. You seem lie a good kid Henry so why don't you concentrate on school and please don't write anymore long postings. Iam only mentioning this to save you the wrath that seems to have befallen you. Ciao!
     
  16. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Hi Dogboy

    Your response is as expected. No gut to face the reality of academic challenge but merely focus on personally attack.

    The only person that is angry or frustrate may be is you. Did I really irritate you that much? Where is your patience? It seems to be you can't even tolerate my so called " Long posting". Maybe my name appearance can trigger your anger too. Why?

    As I have stated, you can never leave your personal attack at home; never able to focus on contructive academic info exchange.

    Also, what is " you seem lie a good kid"??
    I can't figure out the meaning.





    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited 03-28-99).]
     
  17. VM

    VM Senior Member
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    Henry, Unfortunately some people equate one's intelligence with one's ability with language. My mother is foreign, and she has always been thought of as mentally inferior by weak-minded people. But, Henry, I do feel that you (unintentionally or not) do seem to want confrontation with people. Just let it go [​IMG]

     
  18. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    VM

    Maybe I should leave this thread once and for all because no constructive result has been produced.


    I guess I quit this thread


    Thank you.



    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited 03-28-99).]
     
  19. My job is done! Goodbye Henry. Good luck witht he pediatric clinic in NY.
     
  20. MOXIEJEN DO 2003

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    Ok, lets talk about holistic practitioners now. This is my personal definition, and after twelve years of clinical experience in a hospital, I feel I am qualified to state my views. Holistic means, to care for every aspect of the patient. A treatment plan must include addressing the social, emotional, physical, and yes, the spiritual needs of the patient. If you are treating a patient who has given you restrictions on their care, and you prescribe a treatment against their beliefs, this is not holistic. If you ignore their preference for non-traditional therapies to be used as an adjunct to "traditional' therapies, you are not a holistic practitioner. I wish to defend the idea that Osteopathic physicians are holistic practitioners because they are more caring than perhaps our allopathic counterparts. Why? As Osteopathic medical students, we will be educated in a way that encompasses all of the needs of the patient. We will be taught to care for our patients as people, not as symptoms or diseases. Yes, many allopathic physicians practice holistically, but as an osteopathic physician, caring for the entire person is INEXTRICABLY BOUND WITHIN OSTEOPATHIC PHILOSOPHY AND DOCTRINE! I will be taking classes with MD students as a DO student at MSU. In my interview there, I asked a faculty member what makes the two classes different. This professor stated that he found the Osteopathic students to be less competitive, more cohesive, and more caring than the MD students. Part of this may come from the fact that the average age of a DO student is older than a MD student, as many DO students have followed a non-traditional route to medical school. This non-traditional route may have included taking care of an ill parent, working full time while attending undergraduate school, facing racial, ethnic, or financial barriers to completing a bachelors degree, or a career change to complete the long held dream of becoming a physician. These experiences tend to make people more EMPATHETIC towards others, including their patients. I would rather have a physician who started school at 42 years old, and really cared about my religion, the fact that I might not want to take certain drugs for cultural reasons, and that maybe I can't afford certain treatments than a 28 year old who recieved straight A's through Yale Med school but ignored my basic needs as a patient.

    Holistic medicine is synonymous with Osteopathic Philosophy.

     
  21. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    Hi Moxiejen

    Your posting is very informative and organize. Thank you for responding to my question. I am glad that after all, there is someone out there willing to share his/her experience regarding holistic medicine.


    As the control of HMO inclined, our care towards patients will really make a different. However, I believe that DOs should learn how to adapt to the HMO master control, while still giving quality care to patients. Can anyone share more information regarding HMO and quality care issue!



    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited April 10, 1999).]
     
  22. Ponyboy

    Ponyboy Senior Member
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    Jen, you are making a generalization about both DO and MD students and their schools. i don't really think that it is fair to say that only DO schools teach students to treat their patients holistically. look at the U of rochester and creighton university. both schools have a very strong emphasis on the psychosocial aspects of treating patients. also, both the U of maryland and UBC (a canadian school) are offering courses in alternative medicine(acupuncture, aromatherapy, etc). the NEJM published a report a few months ago that advocated the use of chiropractic manipulation for certain ailments. NIH, a predominantly allopathic orientated institution, has set up an institution for the investigation and possible implementation of alternative therapies. so, not only do MD's respect the non-traditional methods of healing, they are also willing to investigate some of these methods. in contrast, i have yet to see a DO school offer courses in acupuncture and aromatherapy. it also seems strange that more than half of DO graduates enter into allopathic residencies, where supposedly they don't treat patients but only the diseases.

    second, to say that older people/students are more compassionate and empathetic is a generalization. it's a mild form of bigotry. how would you like it if i said that anyone over 28 is stupid? it's been my experience that older students are not as bright as their younger counterparts. i'm not speaking about grades but general understanding of concepts. i would rather have a 26 year old Yale graduate (who, by the way, doesn't receive grades--yale uses anonymous tests and each students must motivate themselves to study) who can correctly diagnose my disease than a 41 year old DO who's attentive to my religion but can't figure out what's wrong with me. these are generalizations that we shouldn't make about either profession. we cannot say that older students or DO's have a monopoly on holism and empathy, nor can we say that MD's are uncaring or reductionistic.
     
  23. MOXIEJEN DO 2003

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    Ok, so maybe I overgeneralized, for that I apologize. However, my main point is that Osteopathy incorporates holisitic practices into its basic philosophy. I do not mean to bash MD's or to say that older students and Do's have a corner on the 'empathy' market, but rather that allopathic medicine does not have holistic practices as one of its primary tenets.
    Regarding the number of DO's completing allopathic residencies....two factors may influence this. We must acknowledge that some DO students really wanted to be MD's, and by completing an allopathic residency, this may reduce some of their cognitive dissonance. Second, some may choose allopathic residencies because of geographic location or availablity.

    About the NEJM article regarding use of chiropractic therapies, Osteopathy has used manipulation therapy since its inception. I guess what I am trying to say is that allopathic medicine is now beginning to offer the kind of medicine that Osteopathic practitioners have offered all along. And no, Osteopaths don't have a corner on the empathy market, but personal experiences have led me to believe that the tendencies towards that behavior can be found in many osteopathic physicians.

    A DO that I volunteered with told me that as a DO I will need to promote my profession and be willing to put "a feather in my hat" and educate people about the profession.

    Pony- if you are a Yale MD student, I did not mean to offend you. Some of us choose Osteopathy based upon its philosophy. Thanks for giving me the opportunity to better explain myself.
    Jen

     
  24. Henry

    Henry Senior Member
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    There are still many MD students or Pro-MD premed students have prejudice against Osteopathic medicine. Check on the Princeton Review site and you will understand what I am trying to say here.

    I have to agree that there are major changing in allopathic medical education. More and more allopathic schools and hospital are engaging in all sorts of alternative medicine or the " Holistic" approcah.

    However, I still have a question, if allopathic medical schools believe in the trends of holistic medicine, why are there still prejudice against osteopathic physicians? Just a reminder that HOLISTIC is the principle philosophy of Osteopathic medicine.

    In other words, the allopathic physicians are more than willing to adapt our principle, but they can not accept the people(DOs) who are practicing the principle, why?

    In NOVA, we have a course called "Ethnocultural medicine". The main purpose of that class is to teach us to respect different cultures, in order to enhance pur medical care toward patients. We have the opportunity to expose to some cultural medicine, such as herbs.

    Although we have only minimum exposure to alternative medicine, but I believe we are begining to move towards that direction too. I hope in a few more years, more DO schools will have the opportunities to teach alternative medicine to their students.



    [This message has been edited by Henry (edited April 10, 1999).]
     

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