what is my chance to get into a top20 med school without research?

[treeert]

So I am a Bio/pre-med major Chem minor senior and last semester one of my professor asked me to do research with him. But he really doesn't know anything about lab. we failed to synthesize the compound that we needed at the first time. He then just gave up the synthesis process and expected his colleagues to make it for him. I now go to his office every week to ask him if we can start the project soon. everytime he just tells me "oh I'm too busy" or "XXX said he would make it for me so I am waiting". He has a publication about molecule surface property and he used a software to get the data. Two weeks ago he asked me to get familiar with the software but we found that we couldn't get the same result as the paper using the updated version or the old version. I asked him what the purpose of the parameters he chose and he had no clue. He's just obsessed with the thought of getting the same result as his publication... He told me to test different molecules yesterday and said he would have the molecules ready today, and I just came back from his office after he told me he had nothing for me because he's too busy preparing for the lecture. I really dont think I'm gonna get any result before I graduate (I graduate in May and apply for this cycle). And all the other professors' lab are pretty full so I really dont have time to start over with a new professor. A couple of my friends who've received interviews recently told me that my chance of getting in is really small if I don't do research. I need some advice: if I apply without research experience/publication, I really dont have any chance for a top20 right is it correct?

Demographic info about myself: Asian female; came to U.S. 2.5 yrs ago via an exchange program and now a transfer student &US permanent resident.

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[PreMedStudent55555]

It depends on if the school is research-focused

 

[efle]

...MCAT? GPA? Other ECs? You are correct that almost everyone at top 20s had research experience, but you don't need a pub!

 

[779163]

So I am a Bio/pre-med major Chem minor senior and last semester one of my professor asked me to do research with him. But he really doesn't know anything about lab. we failed to synthesize the compound that we needed at the first time. He then just gave up the synthesis process and expected his colleagues to make it for him. I now go to his office every week to ask him if we can start the project soon. everytime he just tells me "oh I'm too busy" or "XXX said he would make it for me so I am waiting". He has a publication about molecule surface property and he used a software to get the data. Two weeks ago he asked me to get familiar with the software but we found that we couldn't get the same result as the paper using the updated version or the old version. I asked him what the purpose of the parameters he chose and he had no clue. He's just obsessed with the thought of getting the same result as his publication... He told me to test different molecules yesterday and said he would have the molecules ready today, and I just came back from his office after he told me he had nothing for me because he's too busy preparing for the lecture. I really dont think I'm gonna get any result before I graduate (I graduate in May and apply for this cycle). And all the other professors' lab are pretty full so I really dont have time to start over with a new professor. A couple of my friends who've received interviews recently told me that my chance of getting in is really small if I don't do research. I need some advice: if I apply without research experience/publication, I really dont have any chance for a top20 right is it correct?

Demographic info about myself: Asian female; came to U.S. 2.5 yrs ago via an exchange program and now a transfer student &US permanent resident.

tl;dr: Professor she is doing research with is incompetent. She graduates in May and does not think she can pursue research elsewhere before applying. Does she need research experience to get into a top 20?

 

[treeert]

...MCAT? GPA? Other ECs? You are correct that almost everyone at top 20s had research experience, but you don't need a pub!

Taking MCAT this May, aiming for 515+. GPA is kind of complicated because of my transferring history...transferred GPA from my previous college of 78 credits around 3.55; U.S. college GPA of 87 credits is now 3.91, currently taking 15 credits and probably get 4.0 for this semester. EC: 300 shadowing hours (will shadow more in the summer), 100 hrs community volunteering; 200 hrs clinic volunteering in my home country; worked as a hostess for 7 months in 2016; 5 months internship in an eyecare center in 2016; currently working as campus tutor; plan to get a job as CNA in hospital for the summer; had some wildlife field study experience in my previous college.

( most of the ECs in U.S. was done recently. Since it was really hard to get the chance to shadow providers and volunteer at local facilities before I got my green card ( my school is in rural area there're not many opportunities) because as an international student I was never the priority to consider.

 

[treeert]

It depends on if the school is research-focused

Looks like all of them are research-oriented........

 

[779163]

Taking MCAT this May, aiming for 515+. GPA is kind of complicated because of my transferring history...transferred GPA from my previous college of 78 credits around 3.55; U.S. college GPA of 87 credits is now 3.91, currently taking 15 credits and probably get 4.0 for this semester. EC: 300 shadowing hours (will shadow more in the summer), 100 hrs community volunteering; 200 hrs clinic volunteering in my home country; worked as a hostess for 7 months in 2016; 5 months internship in an eyecare center in 2016; currently working as campus tutor; plan to get a job as CNA in hospital for the summer; had some wildlife field study experience in my previous college.

( most of the ECs in U.S. was done recently. Since it was really hard to get the chance to shadow providers and volunteer at local facilities before I got my green card ( my school is in rural area there're not many opportunities) because as an international student I was never the priority to consider.

I think you will be fine at a lot of these Top 20 schools. You have experiences that people will consider to be research experience, and not everyone who goes to a Top 20 school has a publication.

If research is a big concern, you can always find a research position for your gap-year and then hit the schools with a big publication in your application updates!

 

[PreMedStudent55555]

Looks like all of them are research-oriented........

That's kind of your answer then. I don't think they'll reject you outright but research-focused schools look for research-focused students as they want to carry out their mission

 

[treeert]

I think you will be fine at a lot of these Top 20 schools. You have experiences that people will consider to be research experience, and not everyone who goes to a Top 20 school has a publication.

If research is a big concern, you can always find a research position for your gap-year and then hit the schools with a big publication in your application updates!

That's probably what I have to do if my professor doesn't change his attitude for research. Thanks for the suggestion.

 

[779163]

That's probably what I have to do if my professor doesn't change his attitude for research. Thanks for the suggestion.

Good luck on the MCAT! That will probably be a bigger factor for you.

 

[prehealthadvisor55]

There are plenty of great schools that accept students without research experience. But it completely depends on what YOU want out of a medical program. Do you want one at a research minded institution? Then yes, you need research. Want more of a community/patient based focus? Then not necessarily. Don't get wrapped up in "Top 10/Top 20" lists. It comes down to what do you want out of a program. Then work from there.

 

[pedslover2017]

If you destroy mcat you'll probably get some attention from schools in the 15-25 rank range, I wouldn't hold my breath for the top 10.

 

[treeert]

There are plenty of great schools that accept students without research experience. But it completely depends on what YOU want out of a medical program. Do you want one at a research minded institution? Then yes, you need research. Want more of a community/patient based focus? Then not necessarily. Don't get wrapped up in "Top 10/Top 20" lists. It comes down to what do you want out of a program. Then work from there.

I never thought about researching as a physician before but as I'm taking this embryology course I just feel so fascinated by all the the biological process and potential. It makes me really want to take a deep look into it. The professor who's teaching that course doesn't have any spot open so my only research opportunity is this chemistry professor who doesn't do anything. I am looking for some summer research opportunity hopefully there's one that fits me. All my worry comes from financial stuggle, the earlier I get accepted, the earlier I can start my career and the less expense for living.

 

[treeert]

If you destroy mcat you'll probably get some attention from schools in the 15-25 rank range, I wouldn't hold my breath for the top 10.

As an asian it's probably hard... but I know I have no reason to complain about my race. I'm just competing with other asians.

 

[779163]

As an asian it's probably hard... but I know I have no reason to complain about my race. I'm just competing with other asians.

I would not worry about getting into which specific school. Just do your best, become the strongest applicant you can be, and apply strategically when you have your MCAT score.

 

[efle]

I'd revisit this post-MCAT, the big hurdle is definitely scoring top ~5% . After successfully doing that your ECs look fine for some IIs

 

[happypenguin28]

I feel like I can relate to this worry about not having research experience (and I'm an Asian female too 🙂)

I didn't do any lab research in undergrad and did maybe three months of assisting in a psych lab basically right before graduating and felt similarly really worried about my med school prospects without any research experience - even not top schools often have like close to 90% of matriculants participating in some sort of research. When I was coming up with my school list, I made sure to apply pretty broadly and include a lot of schools that were mission/service oriented (even though these often had pretty large research focuses as well) and also chose places that seemed to value diversity of life experience (I have a lot of experiences related to healthcare that are not super typical of premeds). I stayed away from schools that I didn't really want to be at geographically and that my advisors said really valued research more than anything else - this was part of the reason I took Washu off my list and ended up not completing the secondary for Case. My cycle's not over yet, but I've been accepted to a US News top 20, one of my first interviews was a top 5 (waiting to hear back), and I've had a range of interviews/acceptances at a bunch of midish tiers (not really sure how rankings work) that I would be ecstatic to attend as well. People did ask about my research experience in interviews and I was honest about it, though I do think they want to know that you like understand the scientific method so I talked a lot about how my current gap year job has informed me greatly on clinical trial design/results interpretation/etc.

Point of all that being I think you'll be fine as long as you can talk about what you've learned from the experience/if you have interesting other experiences. I do really feel that the med school process evaluates people as individuals, rather than a series of checkboxes and while I think "missing" a big checkbox like this causes a lot of stress/self doubt as you're going through the process, it will eventually work out if it's meant to be. 🙂 Good luck!

 

[CaliforniaDreamer]

300 shadowing hours? Stop shadowing and do something, preferentially some clinical volunteering (in the united states) and research in a real lab.

 

[Lucca]

A very strong application is going to continue to be strong even if it does not have research -- research is not as supremely important as that. However, you have to have the full package. Strong stats. Boxes checked (so, preferably, you would have at least 1 semester or summer of research experience). Great letters. Well put together app.

No MCAT? Can't chance.

 

[KoalaT]

I don't see research being a requirement. I got into UTSW, which is a top 20, and I never did or ever wanted to do research. I know plenty of others who got into Baylor and UTSW with no research at all.

Most people just have good clinical experience. I'd saw you do either clinical or research, and I think clinical is far more important. Learning from patients/doctors >>>> creating gels, pipetting things into tubes every day, feeding the rats and throwing away the dead ones, etc.

Unless you land a great research position, everyone I know who did it just did scut work.

 

[Olupoe]

If you don't mind my asking, How did you become a permanent resident within just 2 years? That seems very fast.

 

[TSteezy]

deleted

 

[aldol16]

I don't see research being a requirement. I got into UTSW, which is a top 20, and I never did or ever wanted to do research. I know plenty of others who got into Baylor and UTSW with no research at all.

Since when is UTSW a top 20? I'm not saying it's not a good school - it most definitely is - but I'm curious what ranking system you use.

 

[aldol16]

OP, it sounds like you're caught in an unfortunate situation where, frankly, your PI is not really a competent PI. It sounds like he doesn't even have graduate students in his lab, which is a bad thing. Either he has a bad reputation for mentorship or he's extremely unproductive and so no graduate students want to tie their career fate with him. Or he's really really old but in that case, he should have had many graduate students and know how to mentor students in research. I think your situation is unique and you probably won't find much help on here. It does sound like you started even in his lab fairly late - the beginning of junior year? Did you do any summer research before that? Or how else did you spend your summers?

 

[treeert]

300 shadowing hours? Stop shadowing and do something, preferentially some clinical volunteering (in the united states) and research in a real lab.

advice taken, thanks!

 

[treeert]

I feel like I can relate to this worry about not having research experience (and I'm an Asian female too 🙂)

I didn't do any lab research in undergrad and did maybe three months of assisting in a psych lab basically right before graduating and felt similarly really worried about my med school prospects without any research experience - even not top schools often have like close to 90% of matriculants participating in some sort of research. When I was coming up with my school list, I made sure to apply pretty broadly and include a lot of schools that were mission/service oriented (even though these often had pretty large research focuses as well) and also chose places that seemed to value diversity of life experience (I have a lot of experiences related to healthcare that are not super typical of premeds). I stayed away from schools that I didn't really want to be at geographically and that my advisors said really valued research more than anything else - this was part of the reason I took Washu off my list and ended up not completing the secondary for Case. My cycle's not over yet, but I've been accepted to a US News top 20, one of my first interviews was a top 5 (waiting to hear back), and I've had a range of interviews/acceptances at a bunch of midish tiers (not really sure how rankings work) that I would be ecstatic to attend as well. People did ask about my research experience in interviews and I was honest about it, though I do think they want to know that you like understand the scientific method so I talked a lot about how my current gap year job has informed me greatly on clinical trial design/results interpretation/etc.

Point of all that being I think you'll be fine as long as you can talk about what you've learned from the experience/if you have interesting other experiences. I do really feel that the med school process evaluates people as individuals, rather than a series of checkboxes and while I think "missing" a big checkbox like this causes a lot of stress/self doubt as you're going through the process, it will eventually work out if it's meant to be. 🙂 Good luck!

thank you for typing so much and it just makes me feel much calm now. I'm probably just gonna ask my other professors to save me a spot in the lab whenever they have students left. hopefully there will be some available.

 

[treeert]

If you don't mind my asking, How did you become a permanent resident within just 2 years? That seems very fast.

i was lucky enough to find someone who's willing to help/support me all the way up to med school, residency, and the rest of my life.

 

[treeert]

OP, it sounds like you're caught in an unfortunate situation where, frankly, your PI is not really a competent PI. It sounds like he doesn't even have graduate students in his lab, which is a bad thing. Either he has a bad reputation for mentorship or he's extremely unproductive and so no graduate students want to tie their career fate with him. Or he's really really old but in that case, he should have had many graduate students and know how to mentor students in research. I think your situation is unique and you probably won't find much help on here. It does sound like you started even in his lab fairly late - the beginning of junior year? Did you do any summer research before that? Or how else did you spend your summers?

Well, it was my fault. There was another biology professor who also asked me to help her with research two years ago but at that time I didn't think about med school + wasn't interested to her research. When I finally made my decision and wanted to be serious, there wasn't many spots left and at that time he asked me if I wanted to work with him. Thought that I need some research experience anyways so just agreed..... In my first summer in US like what I said I didnt make decision about med school so I really wasted it. The second summer I was taking 10 credits to make up for the pre-reqs.... Now all I have left is regret......

 

[liquidsodium]

<- accepted to a top 20 sans research

Edit: that said, I probably screwed myself out of others without it

Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[pedslover2017]

Since when is UTSW a top 20? I'm not saying it's not a good school - it most definitely is - but I'm curious what ranking system you use.

It historically hovers in the that range. When I applied they were 18 or something, right now they are 25 or something.

 

[pedslover2017]

I don't see research being a requirement. I got into UTSW, which is a top 20, and I never did or ever wanted to do research. I know plenty of others who got into Baylor and UTSW with no research at all.

Most people just have good clinical experience. I'd saw you do either clinical or research, and I think clinical is far more important. Learning from patients/doctors >>>> creating gels, pipetting things into tubes every day, feeding the rats and throwing away the dead ones, etc.

Unless you land a great research position, everyone I know who did it just did scut work.

Baylor and utsw for in staters aren't nearly as hard as oos top 20s.

 

[ancientblue]

-

 

[Lawpy]

So I am a Bio/pre-med major Chem minor senior and last semester one of my professor asked me to do research with him. But he really doesn't know anything about lab. we failed to synthesize the compound that we needed at the first time. He then just gave up the synthesis process and expected his colleagues to make it for him. I now go to his office every week to ask him if we can start the project soon. everytime he just tells me "oh I'm too busy" or "XXX said he would make it for me so I am waiting". He has a publication about molecule surface property and he used a software to get the data. Two weeks ago he asked me to get familiar with the software but we found that we couldn't get the same result as the paper using the updated version or the old version. I asked him what the purpose of the parameters he chose and he had no clue. He's just obsessed with the thought of getting the same result as his publication... He told me to test different molecules yesterday and said he would have the molecules ready today, and I just came back from his office after he told me he had nothing for me because he's too busy preparing for the lecture. I really dont think I'm gonna get any result before I graduate (I graduate in May and apply for this cycle). And all the other professors' lab are pretty full so I really dont have time to start over with a new professor. A couple of my friends who've received interviews recently told me that my chance of getting in is really small if I don't do research. I need some advice: if I apply without research experience/publication, I really dont have any chance for a top20 right is it correct?

Demographic info about myself: Asian female; came to U.S. 2.5 yrs ago via an exchange program and now a transfer student &US permanent resident.

the importance of research in regards to medical school admissions is greatly exaggerated in these forums. research is not a requirement to get into any US medical school (talking MD-only). someone without any research experience but has a 3.9+/520+ with strong clinical, nonclinical and leadership and teaching experiences can get accepted into a good medical school.

 

[efle]

^It's "not a requirement" in the sense that shadowing, volunteering, etc are "not requirements." People do get in without each and every type of EC, sure. But when a school has ~95%+ with lab experience, and often requires the MD students to do a research project, it's not at all hyperbolic to say lack of any significant/productive research can hamstring you.

 

[Lawpy]

^It's "not a requirement" in the sense that shadowing, volunteering, etc are "not requirements." People do get in without each and every type of EC, sure. But when a school has ~95%+ with lab experience, and often requires the MD students to do a research project, it's not at all hyperbolic to say lack of any significant/productive research can hamstring you.

actually, lacking clinical experience is automatically lethal regardless of where you apply. that's the key difference. MSAR research stats are exaggerated to include trivial lab maintenance as research. if AMCAS specifically defines research as something that's scientifically driven, independent, and productive research, i'm pretty sure the research % will drop. top schools emphasize research more so than others because they are research powerhouses, so it's not surprising the applicant pool in response has more independent and productive research. so in this applicant pool, absolutely lacking research will be odd, so a compensating factor is often necessary and can help a lot.

the same can't be said for high priority requirements like leadership, clinical and nonclinical experiences. lacking one of these may not always be compensated by having more of a mid priority requirement like research.

 

[efle]

top schools emphasize research more so than others because they are research powerhouses, so it's not surprising the applicant pool in response has more independent and productive research. so in this applicant pool, absolutely lacking research will be odd

I think we are arguing past each other. This thread is dedicated to Top 20s, which is what I've been commenting about, not admissions overall.

 

[mwsapphire]

OP, it sounds like you're caught in an unfortunate situation where, frankly, your PI is not really a competent PI. It sounds like he doesn't even have graduate students in his lab, which is a bad thing. Either he has a bad reputation for mentorship or he's extremely unproductive and so no graduate students want to tie their career fate with him. Or he's really really old but in that case, he should have had many graduate students and know how to mentor students in research. I think your situation is unique and you probably won't find much help on here. It does sound like you started even in his lab fairly late - the beginning of junior year? Did you do any summer research before that? Or how else did you spend your summers?

Plenty of succesful pre meds I knew started research at the start of Junior year....but started hunting for opportunities at the end of soph year/ summer in between

 

[Lawpy]

I think we are arguing past each other. This thread is dedicated to Top 20s, which is what I've been commenting about, not admissions overall.

The point still stands. Lacking research for Top 20s may be a minor setback at best. But even for Top 20s, research doesn't have similar priority to that of clinical and nonclinical experiences.

A 3.9/526 with strong clinical experience but no research can get into a Top 20.

A 3.9/526 with strong research but no clinical experience will likely be rejected by all Top 20.

Lacking clinical, nonclinical, leadership experiences is lethal. Lacking research is not, even for Top 20. But because the applicant pool applying to Top 20 does have research, it's expected to have a compensating EC that makes up for lack of research. But research doesn't compensate for lack of clinical experiences.

 

[efle]

Lacking research for Top 20s may be a minor setback at best

This is just not true

[lacking] leadership experiences is lethal

Also not true

Being able to say why you want to go into medicine is universally expected. It does not follow from this that research is a minor consideration for Top 20s and I have no clue at all where you are getting the leadership thing from.

 

[Lawpy]

This is just not true


Also not true

Being able to say why you want to go into medicine is universally expected. It does not follow from this that research is a minor consideration for Top 20s and I have no clue at all where you are getting the leadership thing from.

From the AAMC surveys on adcom preferences that place leadership well above research in priority rankings.

If research has such a critical importance, it wouldn't be possible to get into Top 20 without research. Lacking research would be lethal for Top 20. And yet repeatedly and consistently, numerous applicants get into Top 20 without research every cycle. I* have yet to see an applicant getting into Top 20 (or any medical school) without clinical or nonclinical experiences. That's why those ECs are considered critical and lacking them is lethal

*and by I, i don't mean just me. I'd ask any adcom member (ideally one at Top 20) regarding whether the above assertion is true.

 

[efle]

From the AAMC surveys on adcom preferences that place leadership well above research in priority rankings.

It places it exactly one spot above where research falls out among all private med schools. If you had research importance scores from just the private schools in the top 20 I betcha it would win. I personally know people getting invites to top 20s (in fact, top 5-10) with no significant leadership at all.

If research has such a critical importance, it wouldn't be possible to get into Top 20 without research. And repeatedly and consistently, numerous applicants get into Top 20 without research every cycle. I have yet to see an applicant getting into Top 20 (or any medical school) without clinical or nonclinical experiences. That's why those ECs are considered critical and lacking them is lethal

Once again, I am not trying to tell you research matters more than clinical. You need clinical. The fact that a few percent of admits to top 20s lack research is not good evidence that it is minor/unimportant. And making arguments against the extremes is weak as well - only 85% of admits to Vandy last year had Shadowing (while 99% had research). Do you think it follows from this that shadowing is an unimportant/minor EC?

 

[Lawpy]

It places it exactly one spot above where research falls out among all private med schools. If you had research importance scores from just the private schools in the top 20 I betcha it would win. I personally know people getting invites to top 20s (in fact, top 5-10) with no significant leadership at all.



Once again, I am not trying to tell you research matters more than clinical. You need clinical. The fact that a few percent of admits to top 20s lack research is not good evidence that it is minor/unimportant. And making arguments against the extremes is weak as well - only 85% of admits to Vandy last year had Shadowing (while 99% had research). Do you think it follows from this that shadowing is an unimportant/minor EC?

I would actually take that bet but we have no way to tell unless we both served on admissions committee at two different Top 20 schools and compared results.

I am using clinical experiences as a marker to determine what is a critical EC. And i'm not sure why you are heavily relying on MSAR %, since that statistic is flawed (it's based on self-reported applicant data, so applicants are likely to miscategorize and exaggerate their research experiences... and some low/mid tiers have matching or higher research % than top 20 despite not being research powerhouses).

 

[efle]

The % comes from whether there was an entry on their AMCAS listed as research, and for people getting admitted to schools like Vandy, I am inclined to believe similarly to what you said above - it's a significant experience not a semester cleaning glassware. People are likely to mis-categorize or exaggerate other entry types as well.

Top 20 is almost always used as a blanket term to describe a type of school. There are always going to be exceptions. I can say "Top 20s love high MCATs" and it's totally valid despite U of Washington holding a ~31 while schools in the 60s are a few points higher.

 

[mwsapphire]

GUYS. I think we can agree that research is a bonus for T20's but a lack of research experience can be explained and is not as lethal as missing clinical experience ( or non clinical volunteering, or tutoring, which OP has) , especially with numbers as strong as OP's. We don't need a cat fight here.

 

[efle]

I think we can agree that research is a bonus for T20's but a lack of research experience can be explained and is not as lethal as missing clinical experience

This is a very reasonable statement.

Research is "minor at best" is not.

That's the difference I don't want to let go uncorrected

 

[Lawpy]

This is a very reasonable statement.

Research is "minor at best" is not.

That's the difference I don't want to let go uncorrected

.... that was essentially my point. you're treating "minor at best" as an absolute statement when i was using it relative to critical experiences like clinical and nonclinical experiences.

 

[efle]

Well then maybe we can all agree that while research is not a requirement, it's not at all hyperbolic to say lack of research can hamstring you?

 

[Lawpy]

Well then maybe we can all agree that while research is not a requirement, it's not at all hyperbolic to say lack of research can hamstring you?

that's where things become subjective.

 

[779163]

Well then maybe we can all agree that while research is not a requirement, it's not at all hyperbolic to say lack of research can hamstring you?

What is the minimum amount of research experience you need where you will not be hamstrung because of lack of research alone? Do you need to produce something substantial, even if it's not a publication?

 

[efle]

What is the minimum amount of research experience you need where you will not be hamstrung because of lack of research alone? Do you need to produce something substantial, even if it's not a publication?

Def don't need a publication, a poster/presentation is much more the norm. I was on the lighter side among people I've spoken with at interviews having had only gotten involved during my last year in undergrad.