What is the average salary of an internship?

[Pragma]

I just have to say 4410, I have no idea where you are getting this nonsense. A significant proportion of PhD clinical students not only go on to work within academia, but also PI or co-PI large grants across the whole spectrum of academic institutions.

I'd have to check, but I have never heard of someone without a doctorate being eligible to obtain a grant from say, NIH as the primary investigator. They might be hired as a project director.

Your assertions are misleading and not at all based on fact. It might be what you encounter in your FSPS, but that's not what the rest of the world is necessarily like.

This is getting ridiculous. It's been like a month now and the misinformation is getting worse.

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[ClinPsychEnthus]

I decided to complete the two-year clinical psychopharmacology training and to take four addtional courses in pediatric neuropsychology at a different university as a non degree students. This specialized training was outside of the APA curriculum model that the PsyD program I attend is modeled after to meet the requirements of becoming an APA accredited program. My pediatric neuropsychology courses were in a non APA accredited school psychology program so they still had the specialization in neuropsychology that you rarely will find in a doctoral level clinical psychology program or onces they are APA accredited. Normally, students have to be creative at getting this specialized training while completing their doctoral degree training in clinical psychology.[/QUOTE/]

False. just false.

There are tons of schools that do advanced neuropsych training (mine included) plus you mentioned previously that predoctoral Internships don't specialize? I'm only just applying now, but every APA site has specialized rotations.

None of this information is true.

Plus, it is a TRAVESTY that you would ever have to supplement your curriculum with courses from another university.

 

[deleted176373]

due to my pacifist nature, military is not possible.

Certainly I can respect that. It's not for some people.

 

[4410]

I decided to complete the two-year clinical psychopharmacology training and to take four addtional courses in pediatric neuropsychology at a different university as a non degree students. This specialized training was outside of the APA curriculum model that the PsyD program I attend is modeled after to meet the requirements of becoming an APA accredited program. My pediatric neuropsychology courses were in a non APA accredited school psychology program so they still had the specialization in neuropsychology that you rarely will find in a doctoral level clinical psychology program or onces they are APA accredited. Normally, students have to be creative at getting this specialized training while completing their doctoral degree training in clinical psychology.[/QUOTE/]

False. just false.

There are tons of schools that do advanced neuropsych training (mine included) plus you mentioned previously that predoctoral Internships don't specialize? I'm only just applying now, but every APA site has specialized rotations.

None of this information is true.

Plus, it is a TRAVESTY that you would ever have to supplement your curriculum with courses from another university.

I guess what the consesus considers specialty training is doing a part-time practicum or an internship rotation over three months. How in the world can you justify that your programs are providing specialization...it just isn't happening due to APA regulations during doctoral training unless the program cares less about APA standards. If the internship is not having rotations and broadly based than it is not following APA standards and not APA accredited. It is not the programs fault for not being able to provide specialization at this level so this is the reason students take specialty training at other programs. The program that I attend actually endorsed me taking the two-year clinical psychopharmacology training and the pediatric neuropsychology training at programs that were not APA accredited, and other students have also chosen this course. It is a crock that many doctoral clinical psychology programs are not allowed to provide this intensive specialization training during the doctoral program sequence until after a student graduates and does postdoctoral work. Clearly, a part-time practicum or a three month rotation on your predoctoral internship is not specialization training. Specialization training is a two-year or more sequence of intensive training and not a brief part-time practicum rotation. Clinical Psychology training should endorse such training during the post-master degree training sequence or the last three-years of the doctoral program rather than partitioning it out to postdoctoral training. There is lack of justification to defer the specialization of training to postdoctoral experience when it could be completed during the last three years of the doctoral training when students are currently engaging in useless empirical work of teaching and research that is unneccessary to be a clinical psychologist.

 

[erg923]

I bet you are an absolute nightmare to supervise...

Anyway, what I wanted to chime in about here was the fact that VA stipends at the internship level, while miserable, do constitute a better deal than most as I get paid annual leave, paid sick leave, authorized absence leave for dissertation defense and academic/research conferences, my internship year counts towards time to retirement, and you are provided nice medical and dental packages.

 

[Sanman]

Clearly, a part-time practicum or a three month rotation on your predoctoral internship is not specialization training. Specialization training is a two-year or more sequence of intensive training and not a brief part-time practicum rotation. Clinical Psychology training should endorse such training during the post-master degree training sequence or the last three-years of the doctoral program rather than partitioning it out to postdoctoral training. There is lack of justification to defer the specialization of training to postdoctoral experience when it could be completed during the last three years of the doctoral training when students are currently engaging in useless empirical work of teaching and research that is unneccessary to be a clinical psychologist.

Cool, now we have Houston guidelines, Baltimore guidelines, and 4410 guidelines on post-doctoral training in psychology

 

[erg923]

Cool, now we have Houston guidelines, Baltimore guidelines, and 4410 guidelines on post-doctoral training in psychology

Ill notify Ralph Retain that he and 4410 can write updated a consensus statement on the matter (Oh wait, research isn't important, i forgot). I read his sob story paper about feeling left out when everyone went to Houston without him.

http://digitalcommons.unl.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1013&context=usafresearch

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Cool, now we have Houston guidelines, Baltimore guidelines, and 4410 guidelines on post-doctoral training in psychology

If SDN were a public school math class....

Teacher(T): 1 + 1 = 2
Stubborn Student (SS): 1 + 1 = 3
T: That is incorrect.
SS: No it isn't. In MY classroom we were taught that it equals 3.
T: Here is proof you are wrong.
SS: Maybe in YOUR classroom it is different, but MY way is better because they told us it was better and now I am telling you it is better.
T: Here is more proof.
SS: LA LA LA I don't hear you!!!
T: That is not very mature, please act like a grown-up or you will end up in the principal's office.
SS: I don't have to listen to you!! LA LA LA.
Principal's Office (PO): Just ignore him and he'll stop. Or not.
SS: LA LA LA....
T: He is getting worse.
PO: Please submit the proper paperwork and we'll get back to you.
T: I just want to teach.
SS: LA LA LA....
T: Seriously....?
PO: LA LA LA!
T: *Throws in the towel*

ANNDDDD.....scene.

<The End>

Disclaimer: All characters and events in this scene &#8211; even those based on real people &#8211; are entirely fictional. All celebrity voices are impersonated &#8211; poorly.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

Clearly, a part-time practicum or a three month rotation on your predoctoral internship is not specialization training. Specialization training is a two-year or more sequence of intensive training and not a brief part-time practicum rotation. Clinical Psychology training should endorse such training during the post-master degree training sequence or the last three-years of the doctoral program rather than partitioning it out to postdoctoral training. There is lack of justification to defer the specialization of training to postdoctoral experience when it could be completed during the last three years of the doctoral training when students are currently engaging in useless empirical work of teaching and research that is unneccessary to be a clinical psychologist.

Why? You need to be clear on what you're comparing. Are you comparing a 16-hour/week practicum for a semester or a year or a 40-hour/week internship over three months to, say, four 3-credit classes (as you mentioned in another thread) over 2-3 years? In other words, 240 hour prac (16 hours * 15 weeks) or 480 hour internship rotation (40 hours * 12 weeks) with actual clients versus 180 hours (3 credits * 4 classes * 15 weeks) in the classroom?? You're right, it's not the same. The pracs and internship training are much better than a so-called curriculum "specialization".

 

[4410]

Most practicums are part-time and in some schools they are not year-long practicums. Normally, the predoctoral internship requires three or more rotations in different areas so it is difficult to really acquire specialization in a three month rotation. If you go to many PhD/PsyD core curriculum in clinical psychology the primary difference from the MS degree is more practicums and the Dissertation. There are not substantially more courses to take above the MS degree. Here is one of the more highly respected core curriculum courses for one of he PhD programs at the University of Colorado. From reviewing this curriculum how can you justify that the PhD at the University of Colorado has significantly greater training in psychometric or research? This is a broadly based core curriculum with the majority of courses in the first two years where you would acquire a MS degree in clinical psychology and the last two years focusing on practicum and Dissertation. If you review many PhD/PsyD clinical psychology curriculum you will find a similar focus on Breadth of training with a Broad emphasis of courses, but very limited specialization emphasis.

First Year

All first year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 5433 Adult Psychopathology Fall semester PSYC 5741/5751 General Statistics both semesters PSYC 6911 Research Practicum both semesters PSYC 5423 Research Problems in Clinical Psychology Spring semester PSYC 7693 Personality Assessment Spring semester Second Year

All second year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 7673 Adult Psychotherapy Fall semester PSYC 7703 History, Ethics, and Professional Issues in Clinical Psychology Fall semester PSYC 7663 Intellectual Assessment Lab Fall semester PSYC 7683 Intellectual Assessment with Practicum both semesters PSYC 6911 Research Practicum both semesters PSYC 7713 Clinical Practicum both semesters PSYC XXXX Seminar or Electives Spring semester PSYC 5453 Developmental Psychopathology Spring semester Third Year

All third year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 7713 Clinical Practicum both semesters PSYC XXXX Seminar or Electives both semesters PSYC 8991 Doctoral Dissertation both semesters Fourth Year

All fourth year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 7713 Clinical Practicum both semesters PSYC XXXX Electives as needed PSYC 8991 Doctoral Dissertation as appropriate

 

[Sanman]

I am just going to save my brain cells and say this....argue with these guys the point of whether you can remain an APA approved clinical psych program while training students in specialty areas:

http://chp.phhp.ufl.edu/academics/doctoral-in-clinical-psychology/

Granted, graduates from said program will not meet the 4410 standard of two-years or more of post-doctoral specialization.

 

[KillerDiller]

Most practicums are part-time and in some schools they are not year-long practicums. Normally, the predoctoral internship requires three or more rotations in different areas so it is difficult to really acquire specialization in a three month rotation.

Sigh. I know I shouldn't bother, but...Psychadelic's math accounted for all this and still clearly demonstrated that learning a specialty is better achieved through the practical side of the curriculum (practica and internship) than in the classroom. You'd be hard pressed to demonstrate that a doctoral degree provides less or the same practical experience as a masters degree.

Here is one of the more highly respected core curriculum courses for one of he PhD programs at the University of Colorado. From reviewing this curriculum how can you justify that the PhD at the University of Colorado has significantly greater training in psychometric or research?

You do realize that the pre-masters curriculum in a doctoral program is not the same as the curriculum at a standard terminal masters program, right? To say that someone who obtained a terminal MS has the same background in research as what is provided in the first two years of coursework at the University of Colorado would be patently false. Just for fun, I will highlight the research/stats components listed here that were not in curriculum for my terminal MS degree so that it will be easier to see the additional benefits of training at the doctoral level. FWIW, I attended one of the most competitive/well regarded terminal MS programs in the country.

First Year

All first year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 5433 Adult Psychopathology Fall semester PSYC 5741/5751 General Statistics both semesters PSYC 6911 Research Practicum both semesters PSYC 5423 Research Problems in Clinical Psychology Spring semester PSYC 7693 Personality Assessment Spring semester

Second Year

All second year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 7673 Adult Psychotherapy Fall semester PSYC 7703 History, Ethics, and Professional Issues in Clinical Psychology Fall semester PSYC 7663 Intellectual Assessment Lab Fall semester PSYC 7683 Intellectual Assessment with Practicum both semesters PSYC 6911 Research Practicum both semesters PSYC 7713 Clinical Practicum both semesters PSYC XXXX Seminar or Electives Spring semester PSYC 5453 Developmental Psychopathology Spring semester Third Year

All third year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 7713 Clinical Practicum both semesters PSYC XXXX Seminar or Electives both semesters PSYC 8991 Doctoral Dissertation both semesters Fourth Year

All fourth year students enroll for the following courses:
PSYC 7713 Clinical Practicum both semesters PSYC XXXX Electives as needed PSYC 8991 Doctoral Dissertation as appropriate

 

[Pragma]

First, I recall taking additional advanced stats classes AFTER getting my master's (3 FULL years of FT coursework total). In addition to clinical practica (20 hours per week for 12 months) and 20 hour per week research assistantships (which give you the MOST research experience) during those years, there was much more significant training later.

A doctoral dissertation (completed during years 4/5 at my institution; it would be impossible to do it any sooner due to the other training requirements) is a huge time commitment and learning process. You engage in lots of generative processes and problem solving when you conduct ORIGINAL RESEARCH. This is in contrast to what I hear from many other institutions (or from the Psy.D students at FSPS's who frequently offer to pay Ph.D. students I know to do their statistics for them for their "Dissertation Projects").

That is all, of course, after you finish your Master's thesis.

Of course, on top of that, I helped write several R01 grants for my lab (note: some were funded), published over a dozen papers, and supervised numerous RA projects. The most extensive of that training occurred for me during years 3 and 4, which was prior to me going on internship during my 5th year (which was considered early at my school, as most people are so busy with additional research training and clinical practica).

I am insulted that someone would think a Master's degree prepares you for research in the same way that I was trained.

Oh, and all of these activities have informed my clinical practice. I am sure that the specialized training I got on internship and fellowship were only augmented by these practices. When I say specialized, I mean full time and intensive. I also continued to do some clinical research at both of these placements.

But I forgot, we are talking to the person who did a "postdoc" before finishing their doctorate degree...

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

Most practicums are part-time and in some schools they are not year-long practicums. Normally, the predoctoral internship requires three or more rotations in different areas so it is difficult to really acquire specialization in a three month rotation.

Citation?

If you go to many PhD/PsyD core curriculum in clinical psychology the primary difference from the MS degree is more practicums and the Dissertation. There are not substantially more courses to take above the MS degree.

Citation?

Please feel free to cite the APA on this one in particular. Grown-up doctoral training, like you would get at an APA-acred. clinical/counseling psychology program, requires far more than some practica and a dissertation.

 

[paramour]

I received my master's degree in experimental psych (not clinical), and I personally consider the basic, required stats sequence in my doc program to be considerably elementary in comparison. We covered in less than 1/4 of a semester in my master's program what they took an entire semester to cover in my doc program. However, my doc program (as I suspect most programs do?) require above & beyond the basic stats sequence. Those classes were not offered in my master's program and offered far superior stats training.

And our practicums are for 9 (academic year) to 12 months (with summers). The only time we have practicums that are less time are when students opt to take an elective, external practicum (usually during the summer) in addition to their other practicum and responsibilities.

 

[4410]

I am just going to save my brain cells and say this....argue with these guys the point of whether you can remain an APA approved clinical psych program while training students in specialty areas:

http://chp.phhp.ufl.edu/academics/doctoral-in-clinical-psychology/

Granted, graduates from said program will not meet the 4410 standard of two-years or more of post-doctoral specialization.

UF calls these specialization but it is really an extra practicum or advanced practicum...normally practicums are 20 hours or less a week:

Areas of Concentration

In addition to general clinical psychology training, students develop an area of concentration as part of their program of studies. The area of concentration can be very individualized. It may be within the department, or in another of the graduate school departments. Given faculty specialty areas and program resources, there are currently four formal areas of concentration available in the department:

• (a) Clinical Child/Pediatric Psychology,
• (b) Clinical Health Psychology,
• (c) Neuropsychology, Neurorehabilitation, and Clinical Neuroscience, and
• (d) Emotion Neuroscience and Psychopathology.

A student who would claim to have developed specialization in these area would be remiss as these are only part time practicums. Also if you claim to have specialized in these areas during predoctoral internship you would be misleading others because it is normally only a three-month rotation.


If you look at most PhD/PsyD core curriculum they offer three or four tracks and commonly it may involve one course and an additional practicum. This is misleading as it is not necessarily a intensive track. In clinical psychology you do not get the necessary intensive specialization until after you have graduated.

 

[psych844]

If a person did their Masters practicum placement and their supervision portion in one very specific area. On top obviously taking courses or special courses where they can specialize in the area. Doing a thesis on the subject. Do you think it would make them compotent at least in that one area?

Basically, where Master-level psychologists are allowed, do you think concentrating on just one thing in everything that you do for the degree...can and should the person be able specialize in forensics, health, rehab with that history?

The way I understand it the doctorate level psychologists on top of specializing on one particular area will have a lot of variety and will be able to practice 3-5 practice areas. But do you think you can be very compotent in one area if that is all you concentrate on in your Masters?

 

[Sanman]

UF calls these specialization but it is really an extra practicum or advanced practicum...normally practicums are 20 hours or less a week:

Areas of Concentration

In addition to general clinical psychology training, students develop an area of concentration as part of their program of studies. The area of concentration can be very individualized. It may be within the department, or in another of the graduate school departments. Given faculty specialty areas and program resources, there are currently four formal areas of concentration available in the department:

• (a) Clinical Child/Pediatric Psychology,
• (b) Clinical Health Psychology,
• (c) Neuropsychology, Neurorehabilitation, and Clinical Neuroscience, and
• (d) Emotion Neuroscience and Psychopathology.

A student who would claim to have developed specialization in these area would be remiss as these are only part time practicums. Also if you claim to have specialized in these areas during predoctoral internship you would be misleading others because it is normally only a three-month rotation.


If you look at most PhD/PsyD core curriculum they offer three or four tracks and commonly it may involve one course and an additional practicum. This is misleading as it is not necessarily a intensive track. In clinical psychology you do not get the necessary intensive specialization until after you have graduated.

Not that this matters as 4410 is banned, but I did not want anyone reading this to be misinformed by his post. The link I posted above above states that the program includes multiple advanced courses, research opportunities, and advanced practica in the area of specialty.

 

[erg923]

Thank goodness!!!

 

[psyman]

Now we have to figure out which new member ID is 4410's new account.

 

[roubs]

Now we have to figure out which new member ID is 4410's new account.

I don't think it will be difficult if they choose to continue their unique writing style.

 

[Pragma]

I don't think it will be difficult if they choose to continue their unique writing style.

Let me give it a try...

"Not all psychologist even need to have a degree to be licensed. I know a psychologist from Kansas who never even went to graduate school. His training on the farm prepared him more for service provision than a subpar PhD program would. Actually, he made all of his money from the farm, although some psychologists become wealthy not from farms. But only if they go to a non-accredited program, because the training is superior as long as it isn't in Canada."

In the neighborhood?

Man, despite the ignorance, xenophobia, and new-onset headaches, there is a small part of me that misses 4410.

 

[Dewe]

Let me give it a try...

"Not all psychologist even need to have a degree to be licensed. I know a psychologist from Kansas who never even went to graduate school. His training on the farm prepared him more for service provision than a subpar PhD program would. Actually, he made all of his money from the farm, although some psychologists become wealthy not from farms. But only if they go to a non-accredited program, because the training is superior as long as it isn't in Canada."

In the neighborhood?

Man, despite the ignorance, xenophobia, and new-onset headaches, there is a small part of me that misses 4410.

I'm a little late, but oh man, your post made me laugh so hard

I think this was one of his winning statements: "There is lack of justification to defer the specialization of training to postdoctoral experience when it could be completed during the last three years of the doctoral training when students are currently engaging in useless empirical work of teaching and research that is unneccessary to be a clinical psychologist."

You're right though, I think I am going to miss him a little Excited to get back to good, thoughtful discussions once again!