What is the consensus on Naturopathic (ND) schools?

[jamaica jan sun princess]

So... Naturopathic vs Caribbean schools?

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[Isoval]

So... Naturopathic vs Caribbean schools?

I’d rather have Goro smack me in the face with a frying pan.

 

[Robin-jay]

The older I get, the less critical I get of certain educational paths. I have seen so many excellent qualities and education from Allopathic med students, Osteopathic med students, podiatric med students, dental students, pharmacists, and even Caribbean students (which is the most risky path but students do come out perfectly knowledgeable)..........

......So why not naturopathic med students?

https://bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/images/pdfs/curriculum/15-16%20ND%20Curriculum.pdf

I gazed at this website link and found their curriculum to be somewhat acceptable for what they do.

A couple years ago, I was thinking only medical student knew medicine....and that's just not the case. The ego is strong with Allopathic students, but osteopathic, podiatric, dental, etc. are incredibly knowledgeable as well.

There are some Allopathic medical students who I think couldn't ever do a PhD in chemistry, while some pharmacists are astronomically intelligent.

As I get older, I realize the programs matter so much less than the person. I've never met an ND student, so I just don't know.

Entrance classes for naturopathic medical school seem similar to what I needed for medical school. Their curriculum seems extensive like medical school with residencies and post-residency positions.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

The older I get, the less critical I get of certain educational paths. I have seen so many excellent qualities and education from Allopathic med students, Osteopathic med students, podiatric med students, dental students, pharmacists, and even Caribbean students (which is the most risky path but students do come out perfectly knowledgeable)..........

......So why not naturopathic med students?

https://bastyr.edu/sites/default/files/images/pdfs/curriculum/15-16%20ND%20Curriculum.pdf

I gazed at this website link and found their curriculum to be somewhat acceptable for what they do.

A couple years ago, I was thinking only medical student knew medicine....and that's just not the case. The ego is strong with Allopathic students, but osteopathic, podiatric, dental, etc. are incredibly knowledgeable as well.

There are some Allopathic medical students who I think couldn't ever do a PhD in chemistry, while some pharmacists are astronomically intelligent.

As I get older, I realize the programs matter so much less than the person. I've never met an ND student, so I just don't know.

Entrance classes for naturopathic medical school seem similar to what I needed for medical school. Their curriculum seems extensive like medical school with residencies and post-residency positions.

Bastyr is a total joke. My favorite brag of theirs is how their clinical curriculum is identical to allopathic medical school. They have no real standards, either for their attendees or their graduates. Read Britt Hermes's experience of attending Bastyr - I especially liked the part about how the students had to learn pelvic exams on one another.

It's such a gross, predatory institution.

 

[Robin-jay]

Bastyr is a total joke. My favorite brag of theirs is how their clinical curriculum is identical to allopathic medical school. They have no real standards, either for their attendees or their graduates. Read Britt Hermes's experience of attending Bastyr - I especially liked the part about how the students had to learn pelvic exams on one another.

It's such a gross, predatory institution.

I can't say without seeing their program or talking to faculty, students, or graduates of the program. I simply don't know. It wouldn't shock me one bit if some of them were more capable than some traditional med students I know.

Ya, not sure about the pelvic exam. We certainly didn't actually do any pelvic exams in our med school, but I would have to look more into what ND considers a pelvic exam.

 

[dpmd]

I can't say without seeing their program or talking to faculty, students, or graduates of the program. I simply don't know. It wouldn't shock me one bit if some of them were more capable than some traditional med students I know.

Ya, not sure about the pelvic exam. We certainly didn't actually do any pelvic exams in our med school, but I would have to look more into what ND considers a pelvic exam.

Are you pod? Can't think of any other reason you would not do a pelvic in med school.

 

[dpmd]

Are you pod? Can't think of any other reason you would not do a pelvic in med school.

Though then why would you disingenuously call it med school instead of podiatric medicine school?

 

[Robin-jay]

Are you pod? Can't think of any other reason you would not do a pelvic in med school.

Pelvic exams without "crossing the boundaries". I don't recall having to do one where we had to palpate anything too close to anywhere that could be considered inappropriate. As the MD student mentioned above me. But I could also be too early in my school.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I can't say without seeing their program or talking to faculty, students, or graduates of the program. I simply don't know. It wouldn't shock me one bit if some of them were more capable than some traditional med students I know.

Ya, not sure about the pelvic exam. We certainly didn't actually do any pelvic exams in our med school, but I would have to look more into what ND considers a pelvic exam.

I can speak to the quality of Bastyr graduates. I know one decent RD and a bunch of cancer quack NDs. Aside from the RD, all are wholly incompetent medical providers.

This should not surprise you, as Bastyr does not provide a medical education to its students.

 

[Robin-jay]

I can speak to the quality of Bastyr graduates. I know one decent RD and a bunch of cancer quack NDs. Aside from the RD, all are wholly incompetent medical providers.

This should not surprise you, as Bastyr does not provide a medical education to its students.

Your opinion is your opinion. I've just learned not to base my judgement on programs, but rather the people. Can't say without knowing them. Maybe I would agree with you if I met them and witnessed their program. Dunno.

 

[dpmd]

Pelvic exams without "crossing the boundaries". I don't recall having to do one where we had to palpate anything too close to anywhere that could be considered inappropriate. As the MD student mentioned above me. But I could also be too early in my school.

A pelvic exam is an internal female genital exam.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

Your opinion is your opinion. I've just learned not to base my judgement on programs, but rather the people. Can't say without knowing them. Maybe I would agree with you if I met them and witnessed their program. Dunno.

As do I, as I literally just told you.

I'll leave you some links about the Bastyr experience. Read through them if you want. Or don't, I don't care.

ND Confession, Part 1: Naturopathic clinical training inside and out - Naturopathic Diaries

A detailed account of naturopathic clinical training at Bastyr University.

www.naturopathicdiaries.com

ND Confession, Part 2: The Accreditation of Naturopathic “Medical” Education - Naturopathic Diaries

This post originally appeared on ScienceBasedMedicine.org on August 29, 2015. I am including the article here in its original form to help readers easily discover the truth about naturopathic education....

www.naturopathicdiaries.com

 

[deleted480308]

Your opinion is your opinion. I've just learned not to base my judgement on programs, but rather the people. Can't say without knowing them. Maybe I would agree with you if I met them and witnessed their program. Dunno.

You can absolutely judge basic qualifications off of a program. Are you trained to be a doctor at an h/r tax prep class? Nope. Are you trained to be a doctor at a naturopathic school? Nope

See, that was easy

 

[dpmd]

Your opinion is your opinion. I've just learned not to base my judgement on programs, but rather the people. Can't say without knowing them. Maybe I would agree with you if I met them and witnessed their program. Dunno.

So when choosing a person to see when you have an issue, you don't use their training as a deciding factor? Like you see a dentist for leg pain because you met them and they seemed super competent?

 

[Robin-jay]

So when choosing a person to see when you have an issue, you don't use their training as a deciding factor? Like you see a dentist for leg pain because you met them and they seemed super competent?

I use the training, but when a program such as the ND program claims to be able to help someone in a certain way, who am I to criticize them without talking to the faculty, students, or graduates?

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

I use the training, but when a program such as the ND program claims to be able to help someone in a certain way, who am I to criticize them without talking to the faculty, students, or graduates?

someone who can extrapolate some information from the groups that claim cancer is a fungus and inject Indian spices into people's veins.

 

[Robin-jay]

someone who can extrapolate some information from the groups that claim cancer is a fungus and inject Indian spices into people's veins.

Send me the link explicitly stating so. I don't disagree with you, you could very well be right, but I'd need a link to investigate.

 

[TheDancingWriter]

Pseudo bull**** that I'm surprised isn't illegal, much like chiropractors.

 

[Robin-jay]

As do I, as I literally just told you.

I'll leave you some links about the Bastyr experience. Read through them if you want. Or don't, I don't care.

ND Confession, Part 1: Naturopathic clinical training inside and out - Naturopathic Diaries

A detailed account of naturopathic clinical training at Bastyr University.

www.naturopathicdiaries.com

ND Confession, Part 2: The Accreditation of Naturopathic “Medical” Education - Naturopathic Diaries

This post originally appeared on ScienceBasedMedicine.org on August 29, 2015. I am including the article here in its original form to help readers easily discover the truth about naturopathic education....

www.naturopathicdiaries.com

Read through parts of it. It reads just any disgruntled student any program. It definitely shows flaws in the program, but many schools have that issue.

I could write an article all day about how DO students get shafted in the process competing against MD students in a similar fashion.

I didn't read all of it (long read)...can you quote a specific part you find as pseudo-science? I believe there could be, but I didn't specifically see it.

 

[Robin-jay]

Pseudo bull**** that I'm surprised isn't illegal, much like chiropractors.

There's a lot of good science within chiropractor techniques.

 

[dpmd]

I use the training, but when a program such as the ND program claims to be able to help someone in a certain way, who am I to criticize them without talking to the faculty, students, or graduates?

I suppose when(if? Since you never really answered my question about what sort of school you attend) you actually learn medicine (including what a pelvic exam means) you may come to realize that doctors are exactly the kind of people to evaluate the training others are claiming is sufficient to function equivalent to them (as opposed to functioning in a different type of role)

 

[Isoval]

Pseudo bull**** that I'm surprised isn't illegal, much like chiropractors.

In their defense, chiropractic is actually rather beneficial for purely musculoskeletal issues.

The problem with chiropractic is that they have no boundaries. Want to practice neurological techniques without knowing the first think about neurology? Sure! Want to prescribe without ever being taught medicine? Sounds good (in some states)!

 

[Robin-jay]

I suppose when(if? Since you never really answered my question about what sort of school you attend) you actually learn medicine (including what a pelvic exam means) you may come to realize that doctors are exactly the kind of people to evaluate the training others are claiming is sufficient to function equivalent to them (as opposed to functioning in a different type of role)

If an orthopedic physician says podiatric physicians aren't as capable (or even real doctors)....should that be respected?

 

[TelemarketingEnigma]

Pelvic exams without "crossing the boundaries". I don't recall having to do one where we had to palpate anything too close to anywhere that could be considered inappropriate. As the MD student mentioned above me. But I could also be too early in my school.

If you're in an MD/DO program, I sure hope you learn about pelvic exams before you have to do one on a real patient. My school (and most others that I'm aware of) had us learn them on professional standardized patients (during 2nd year) who are trained to walk you through the whole process and make sure you know at least a little bit of what you're doing before unleashing you on unsuspecting patients. At the very least I hope they give you some models to practice on.

 

[Bonne Nuit]

I didn't read all of it (long read)...can you quote a specific part you find as pseudo-science? I believe there could be, but I didn't specifically see it.

You know what? Since it was too much for you to read and you're demanding links from everyone else, I'll do you one better and link to actual pseudoscience, straight from Bastyr's own website and resources they provided to their students:

https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com.../Cervical-Escharotic-Tx-Bastyr-University.pdf - this is a fun one: a tincture for the treatment of cervical dysplasia made from bloodroot and zinc chloride. Apply directly to the cervix! Then, "Alternate weekly between a Vitamin A suppository and an herbal suppository (Myrrh, Echinacea, Usnea, Hydrastis, Althea, Geranium, Yarrow)."

Bastyr University - HO6305 - As a Homeopathy 1 student at Bastyr, you too can learn about miasms and the body's vital force.

 

[Robin-jay]

ou know what? Since it was too much for you to read and you're demanding links from everyone else, I'll do you one better and link to actual pseudoscience, straight from Bastyr's own website and resources they provided to their students:

You sent me like 20 pages to read originally.

https://www.naturopathicdiaries.com.../Cervical-Escharotic-Tx-Bastyr-University.pdf - this is a fun one: a tincture for the treatment of cervical dysplasia made from bloodroot and zinc chloride. Apply directly to the cervix! Then, "Alternate weekly between a Vitamin A suppository and an herbal suppository (Myrrh, Echinacea, Usnea, Hydrastis, Althea, Geranium, Yarrow)."

Bastyr University - HO6305 - As a Homeopathy 1 student at Bastyr, you too can learn about miasms and the body's vital force.

Ya at first glance it does seem like a silly treatment plan for sure. I don't like how the resources are void of published journal articles.

 

[Isoval]

You sent me like 20 pages to read originally.



Ya at first glance it does seem like a silly treatment plan for sure. I don't like how the resources are void of published journal articles.

This is what we've been saying. It's heaps of BS.

 

[Robin-jay]

This is what we've been saying. It's heaps of BS.

I don't disagree that is very well may be. I just don't feel comfortable deciding a whole healthcare profession has absolutely no merit without talking to the people that are part of the program firsthand.

Would I tell my patient to ever see an ND? I wouldn't. However, I would to think there are some redeeming qualities of their treatments. Even if 95% of it is rubbish, it would be interesting to know could potential work. I would of course never think something is good without proper journal publications, etc.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

In their defense, chiropractic is actually rather beneficial for purely musculoskeletal issues.

The problem with chiropractic is that they have no boundaries. Want to practice neurological techniques without knowing the first think about neurology? Sure! Want to prescribe without ever being taught medicine? Sounds good (in some states)!

How beneficial it is is very much up for debate. There are a bunch of studies showing little to no benefit over conservative management. But yes, I agree with your second paragraph for sure.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

There's a lot of good science within chiropractor techniques.

Like the “vertebral subluxation complex”?

 

[Robin-jay]

Like the “vertebral subluxation complex”?

Chiropractors aren't perfect. I've seen physicians get upset about the results they send to the physicians that are clearly inaccurate and can be...a little wacky.

I do know great chiropractors though, and some of them have attended med school after they were a chiropractor. I see one student all the time who was a chiropractor prior to becoming a physician.

 

[dpmd]

If an orthopedic physician says podiatric physicians aren't as capable (or even real doctors)....should that be respected?

A foot and ankle specialty orthopedic surgeon can evaluate podiatric medicine training and determine that they are not equivalent to their own training (this is a true statement as there are things that the orthopod is better trained in depending on where each was trained and where they work). I am familiar with the credentialing pissing match stuff that goes on between some and how it can go beyond legitimate issues but for the most part I think orthopods (and other doctors) consider pods to be real doctors of foot issues who are capable of handling the things they are trained to do. Just like a maxillofacial surgeon (dental specialty) has overlap with a head and neck surgeon (md or do specialty) so it wouldn't be appropriate to say one wasn't a real surgeon but it would likely be true that one has more training in certain procedures depending on where they trained and where they work.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Chiropractors aren't perfect. I've seen physicians get upset about the results they send to the physicians that are clearly inaccurate and can be...a little wacky.

I do know great chiropractors though, and some of them have attended med school after they were a chiropractor. I see one student all the time who was a chiropractor prior to becoming a physician.

I’m not attacking chiropractors. I’m questioning the concept that chiropractic is supported by good science.

 

[Robin-jay]

I’m not attacking chiropractors. I’m questioning the concept that chiropractic is supported by good science.

Less so than traditional physicians I assume, but not to the extent where I believe they should not be seen by patients.

 

[Princeton Medical Student]

Probably more effective then osteopathy!

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Less so than traditional physicians I assume, but not to the extent where I believe they should not be seen by patients.

That’s an understatement. There is some evidence that it may have modest benefit in some msk conditions, but likely not more than conservative treatment. Anything else they are doing is outside their scope.

 

[dpmd]

Probably more effective then osteopathy!

Depends what kind. I think there is low risk and possible benefit for many of the manipulations intended to treat musculoskeletal complaints (excluding certain but not all c spine manipulation). I doubt it matters much if it is done by a DO, DC, PT, or someone else (like maybe a massage therapist) assuming someone with appropriate education and training has determined it isn't something more than musculoskeletal.

 

[Goro]

I’d rather have Goro smack me in the face with a frying pan.

 

[Goro]

Read through parts of it. It reads just any disgruntled student any program. It definitely shows flaws in the program, but many schools have that issue.

I could write an article all day about how DO students get shafted in the process competing against MD students in a similar fashion.

I didn't read all of it (long read)...can you quote a specific part you find as pseudo-science? I believe there could be, but I didn't specifically see it.

Start by reading this:

A Close Look at Naturopathy | Quackwatch

Naturopathy, sometimes referred to as "natural medicine," is a largely pseudoscientific approach said to "assist nature" , "support ...

www.quackwatch.org

 

[deleted947265]

There's a lot of good science within chiropractor techniques.

Not really though. There's also lots of cervical artery dissections. Oh the cervical artery dissections...

Even if that were true their scope of practice is so small they can't really run their own practice so then you get people like this guy, who peddle every supplement under the sun.

 

[deleted966164]

Saw that today...

 

[smhmd]

MD, MBBS and DO are the only Physician degrees. Everything else is not a Physician or is quack.

 

[Weirdy]

@Robin-jay You need to stop mate. You're making us look bad.

It is absolute quackery.

 

[ciestar]

Saw that today...

View attachment 295441

This literally happened recently. Mom decided to treat her four year old for flu at home with EO’s, elderberry, and potatoes in his socks. He had febrile seizures. She didn’t seek medical attention. The kid died.

All the DT and YL shillers came out in full force defending EOs though

 

[CosmeticLeFort3]

Just go carib if you really want to be called doctor that bad

 

[Ferrismonk]

Saw that today...

View attachment 295441

Well, to be fair, Tamiflu sucks.