What is the consensus on Naturopathic (ND) schools?

[genessis42]

So I recently came across the idea that there is a "3rd" medical degree with ND schools, and that they have "practice rights" in some states.

What exactly do they do? I came across an office sign that read "Naturopathic Oncology" and that sort of peaked my curiosity.

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[deleted972488]

Pseudoscience.

 

[FutureSurgical]

Waste of money on a degree that will most likely go away in the next 25-50 years. I'm seeing a trend of medical schools adopt other aspects of medicine (e.g. culinary medicine) into med school curricula. Stuff that's evidence-based in that "realm" of ND but not crackery

 

[deleted480308]

So I recently came across the idea that there is a "3rd" medical degree with ND schools, and that they have "practice rights" in some states.

What exactly do they do? I came across an office sign that read "Naturopathic Oncology" and that sort of peaked my curiosity.

Fake sh— that idiots or jerks use to make money off of idiots or desperate people

 

[Moko]

Recommending common sense preventative stuff like eating more greens, exercising more, etc, is fine. However, for the other parts of naturopathic medicine, they are at best homeopathic, and at worst frank malpractice.

 

[Med Ed]

What exactly do they do? I came across an office sign that read "Naturopathic Oncology" and that sort of peaked my curiosity.

Naturopathic oncology saves healthcare resources and combats the opioid epidemic by facilitating quick, painful deaths.

 

[Goro]

So I recently came across the idea that there is a "3rd" medical degree with ND schools, and that they have "practice rights" in some states.

What exactly do they do? I came across an office sign that read "Naturopathic Oncology" and that sort of peaked my curiosity.

Quackery on par with bleeding with leeches, the four humors, phrenology, homeopathy, Tarot cards, astrology, cupping, or treppaning.

 

[Orangekiwi]

Even a first year phrenology student could tell you that naturopathy is worthless

 

[Andrew Baines Bernard]

So I recently came across the idea that there is a "3rd" medical degree with ND schools, and that they have "practice rights" in some states.

I would, in no way, call this a "3rd medical degree". Or even equate it to any medical degree at all.

As far as "practice rights" are concerned, I wouldn't trust an ND to read me a fortune cookie. Honestly, if I had to guess, their license probably only permits them to open the cookie, but a higher-level provider would have to read it for them.

 

[gonnif]

Just to compare here, Osteopathic medicine took over 60 years to even begin to be accepted by the AMA in the 1960s, and that was only after long legal battles thru the 1970s and, most importantly, Osteopathic schools moving much closer to allopathic training. It wasn't until the 1990-2000 that Osteopaths were fully accepted across the medical community as they had fully integrated allopathic education into their curriculum. While the DO schools still maintain the philosophy of "holistic" view of the body and learn OMM, at this point at least 90%+ of DO grads go thru residencies (whether traditional AOA or ACGME) where neither of the those concepts are present. Podiatrists had a similar process and timeline. My point here is that these degrees were only fully accepted across the MD community after 100 years and when they completely shifted in modern medical principles.

The whole issue of any kind of Complementary, Alternative, of Integrative medicine is making great vast claims that do not have any kind of rigorous evidence-based medicine. Not only does this inject unknown into treatment, it can keep people from seeking timely treatment for serious medical issues, Steve Jobs being a relatively recent example.

The National Center for Complementary and Integrative Health (NCCIH), founded in 1998 at the prodding of congress, tries to put some rigor behind studying these concepts and have found some areas where there is improvement in outcomes usually by assisting patients with pain management and stress. And most physicians and hospitals practice a piece of this with the inclusion of religious chaplains and prayer as a spiritual and psychological support to patients and their families. Even the long tradition of Chinese of OMD (Oriental Medicine Doctor) , which is really a naturopathic pharmacist providing the equivalent of OTC, understand their limits with their culture and society. They do not claim to replace medical doctors

Not only trying to believe that this is somehow a third medical degree, it seems designed to take the money and time from unsuspecting students

 

[deleted947265]

I don't know what the consensus is, but anyone who disagrees with me is wrong. Naturopathic schools are very good at sucking prospective students in and making it seem like they're real medical schools, they aren't however. They will burden you with significant debt and few job opportunities, and your options are to open your own private "practice". The training in naturopathic schools is like all of the science in medical education but watered down to the below undergraduate level, and then there's an equal amount of training in abject quackery. ZDogMD has a great interview with Britt Marie Hermes who ditched the ND life, and the dark underbelly of all that stuff.

There have been pushes in some states for naturopaths to get licensing and even prescribing rights. Quack medical organizations will always try to sneak this stuff through. Getting their quackery enshrined in law, and shielding themselves from legal liability is the name of the quack game. I'm not just talking about ND prescribing rights. If you live in an east coast state, there is almost always a bill in the house or senate involving lyme disease quackery. Quacks pulling this kind of nonsense isn't new and doesn't lend them any credibility. They get called out by the medical community and shut down quick pretty almost every time. BTW There's homeopathy on the naturopathic "boards"... HOMEOPATHY.

Naturopathic oncology saves healthcare resources and combats the opioid epidemic by facilitating quick, painful deaths.

I'm gonna steal that from now on.

 

[Morc]

ND bad

 

[keolu hills]

Recommending common sense preventative stuff like eating more greens, exercising more, etc, is fine. However, for the other parts of naturopathic medicine, they are at best homeopathic, and at worst frank malpractice.

In my state, my former medical school is slowly adopting naturopathic medicine and some doctors have included this into their practice.

 

[Andrew Baines Bernard]

I don't know what the consensus is, but anyone who disagrees me is wrong. Naturopathic schools are very good at sucking prospective students in and making it seem like they're real medical schools, they aren't however. They will burden you with significant debt and few job opportunities, and your options are to open your own private "practice". The training in naturopathic schools is like all of the science in medical education but watered down to the below undergraduate level, and then there's an equal amount of training in abject quackery. ZDogMD has a great interview with Britt Marie Hermes who ditched the ND life, and the dark underbelly of all that stuff.

So a few takeaways from watching that interview: NDs are somehow permitted to prescribe limited controlled substances in some states (WA, AZ), and some charge higher tuition than some in-state medical schools (hers was 45K/yr before living expenses). WTactualF is happening?

 

[TwoHighways]

ND’s wouldn’t exist if mainstream medicine did a better job at treating the root causes of disease instead of treating symptoms. Maybe some reflection on the current state of medicine would be more productive than writing off ND training as quackery. What has mainstream medicine done for addressing the metabolic syndrome epidemic? Food for thought.

Caveat: I have no idea what ND training actually consists of.

 

[TwoHighways]

Naturopathic oncology saves healthcare resources and combats the opioid epidemic by facilitating quick, painful deaths.

What survivorship advantage does standard of care provide in glioblastoma? Metastatic breast cancer? Pancreatic cancer? One need not be an oncologist to appreciate nutritional/metabolic approaches to help push cancer cells towards apoptosis.

 

[deleted947265]

ND’s wouldn’t exist if mainstream medicine did a better job at treating the root causes of disease instead of treating symptoms. Maybe some reflection on the current state of medicine would be more productive than writing off ND training as quackery. I say this as someone that has no idea what ND curriculum actually consists of. Food for thought.

If ND's want me to stop calling them quacks they're going to have to meet me halfway and stop appearing in documentaries and saying they think cancer is a fungus and other stuff. (I wish I was joking.).

While there's a conversation to be had about the current state of healthcare and that leading to people seeking out so-called alternative medicine, we can still call out bad actors. They're good at getting repeat customers because they have good bedside manner and can spend a lot of time with patients, that's literally all they have to offer. At worst they can get people killed. Every oncologist has a story of someone with a perfectly treatable cancer, then the patient delays treatment to seek out alternative care, and then they come back a few months later with a cancer that is completely untreatable.

Flaws in aircraft design do not prove the existence of magic carpets.

 

[TwoHighways]

If ND's want me to stop calling them quacks they're going to have to meet me halfway and stop appearing in documentaries and saying they think cancer is a fungus and other stuff. (I wish I was joking.).

While there's a conversation to be had about the current state of healthcare and that leading to people seeking out so-called alternative medicine, we can still call out bad actors. They're good at getting repeat customers because they have good bedside manner and can spend a lot of time with patients, that's literally all they have to offer. At worst they can get people killed. Every oncologist has a story of someone with a perfectly treatable cancer, then the patient delays treatment to seek out alternative care, and then they come back a few months later with a cancer that is completely untreatable.

Flaws in aircraft design do not prove the existence of magic carpets.

Fair enough. I just think a more productive approach would be look at the shortfalls of medicine as it’s practiced currently than to concern ourselves with what ND’s are or aren’t doing. You know, the whole plank in our own eye versus the speck in our brother’s (how many deaths can we really attribute to ND’s verses dogmatism and resistance to change within traditional medicine).

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

What survivorship advantage does standard of care provide in glioblastoma? Metastatic breast cancer? Pancreatic cancer? One need not be an oncologist to appreciate nutritional/metabolic approaches to help push cancer cells towards apoptosis.

I'm gonna take a shot in the dark and say the ~20% 5-year survival for metastatic breast cancer comes from all the treatments an oncologist will suggest and not eating blueberries and chugging lavender-armadillo oil. Though if you take the ND approach your phone company may continue to do well after your death.

 

[sab3156]

ND’s wouldn’t exist if mainstream medicine did a better job at treating the root causes of disease instead of treating symptoms. Maybe some reflection on the current state of medicine would be more productive than writing off ND training as quackery. What has mainstream medicine done for addressing the metabolic syndrome epidemic? Food for thought.

Caveat: I have no idea what ND training actually consists of.

Can you name a single disease in which only the "symptoms" are managed even though there is a known underlying etiology that can be addressed at equal or less risk to the patient? If not, you should just delete your post, because it's ridiculous.

 

[Kardio]

ND’s wouldn’t exist if mainstream medicine did a better job at treating the root causes of disease instead of treating symptoms. Maybe some reflection on the current state of medicine would be more productive than writing off ND training as quackery. What has mainstream medicine done for addressing the metabolic syndrome epidemic? Food for thought.

Caveat: I have no idea what ND training actually consists of.

Look up “intravenous turmeric”

 

[TwoHighways]

Can you name a single disease in which only the "symptoms" are managed even though there is a known underlying etiology that can be addressed at equal or less risk to the patient? If not, you should just delete your post, because it's ridiculous.

hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, dyslipidemia. There’s more to it than exercise more, eat less, calories in, calories out.

 

[FISTMCLARGEHUGE]

Look up “intravenous turmeric”

"So you really like Indian food, boy do I have the treatment for you"

 

[Andrew Baines Bernard]

What survivorship advantage does standard of care provide in glioblastoma? Metastatic breast cancer? Pancreatic cancer? One need not be an oncologist to appreciate nutritional/metabolic approaches to help push cancer cells towards apoptosis.

I don't think anybody here is arguing that nutrition and attention to metabolism are quackery... After all, our current understanding of metabolic syndrome wouldn't exist if it weren't for "mainstream medicine". And as stated previously, many medical schools are specifically introducing curriculum aimed at nutrition and non-pharmaceutical approaches. Yes, there are issues with modern healthcare and it is being addressed. The reality, however, is that medicine is a large, unimaginably complex system that is slow to change, but it is changing.

I think the main issue that has most people here up in arms is the fact that ND schools teach the pseudoscience of homeopathy, charge outrageous sums for classes devoted to making turmeric tinctures and capsules of powdered mugwort, and then have the gall to call their graduates "doctors". Frankly it's just insulting to compare any of that to the education that MDs and DOs go through, and to have an entire "doctoral" degree founded on non-evidence-based quackery is baffling.

 

[sab3156]

hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, dyslipidemia. There’s more to it than exercise more, eat less, calories in, calories out.

Every single physician recommends lifestyle changes to help patients with those diseases. It's not the physicians job to force people to exercise (they can recommend it, and do recommend it). It's up to people to make those lifestyle adjustments. Endocrinology and Cardiology departments, for example, also usually have nutritionists that patients can set up appointments with if they need help with lifestyle changes related to their diet. These diseases are also insanely complex and do not only have a relationship with poor diet and lack of exercise. You're making huge assumptions about stuff you've never dealt with.

I'm curious, though - do you have any better examples, or is that all you could come up with?

 

[deleted947265]

hypertension, diabetes, cardiovascular disease, dyslipidemia. There’s more to it than exercise more, eat less, calories in, calories out.

Yes, but sometimes those aren't enough on their own or people aren't able or willing to do them.

 

[TwoHighways]

Every single physician recommends lifestyle changes to help patients with those diseases. It's not the physicians job to force people to exercise (they can recommend it, and do recommend it). It's up to people to make those lifestyle adjustments. Endocrinology and Cardiology departments, for example, also usually have nutritionists that patients can set up appointments with if they need help with lifestyle changes related to their diet. You're making huge assumptions about stuff you've never dealt with.

I'm curious, though - do you have any better examples, or is that all you could come up with?

what run of the mill family doctor is coaching patients on what they should and shouldn’t be eating? What run of the mill family doctor has the time to? Most are just happy to prescribe a statin, ace inhibitor, beta blocker, and metformin. Kick the can down the road, while not addressing the root cause. What doctor has any training in nutrition that didn’t come from their own interest in the subject? I’m glad that things are changing in this respect. Clearly what we’re eating and the nutritional guidelines have failed us. You can’t out exercise a ****ty diet. Period. These are areas that mainstream medicine has failed people. Insulin resistance/the metabolic syndrome are the drivers of chronic disease and roughly .90 of every dollar is spent treating chronic disease. It’s a pandemic we’re exporting at this point. It’s insanity. It can’t be sustained indefinitely. It’s bankrupting us.

 

[TwoHighways]

Yes, but sometimes those aren't enough on their own or people aren't able or willing to do them.

No doubt! I shake my head when I see patients that know better and have the tools to make changes, and simply won’t. No sympathy for that sort.

again, my frustration is more at the system than what ND’s are or aren’t doing. I feel that if we did a better job, patients wouldn’t be seeking out ND’s.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

what run of the mill family doctor is coaching patients on what they should and shouldn’t be eating? What run of the mill family doctor has the time to? Most are just happy to prescribe a statin, ace inhibitor, beta blocker, and metformin. Kick the can down the road, while not addressing the root cause. What doctor has any training in nutrition that didn’t come from their own interest in the subject? I’m glad that things are changing in this respect. Clearly what we’re eating and the nutritional guidelines have failed us. You can’t out exercise a ****ty diet. Period. These are areas that mainstream medicine has failed people. Insulin resistance/the metabolic syndrome are the drivers of chronic disease and roughly .90 of every dollar is spent treating chronic disease. It’s a pandemic we’re exporting at this point. It’s insanity. It can’t be sustained indefinitely. It’s bankrupting us.

Have you ever met a patient? I'm not sure what your experience with them is, but at some point personal responsibility plays a role. You can tell a patient until you're blue in the face all about diabetes and hypertension, but if they don't want to change then they won't. I have seen patients with Buerger's literally smoke themselves to death, patients with CHF who choose to eat salty ass foods and put themselves into an exacerbation because they just have to have that burger or that lobster. The mental gymnastics people will go through to justify their lifestyle is incredible.

 

[ganginguponthesun2020]

Can you name a single disease in which only the "symptoms" are managed even though there is a known underlying etiology that can be addressed at equal or less risk to the patient? If not, you should just delete your post, because it's ridiculous.

What about polycystic ovary syndrome, uterine cysts/fibroids, painful/heavy periods, etc? Often these disorders are treated with hormonal birth control which is not fixing the root cause of the issue, but rather just masking it. That is, until the woman decides she wants to have kids 10 years later, gets off BC, only to discover that the problem was never fixed and now she's not fertile. I am in no way, shape or form defending naturopathic medicine, but I agree with Twohighway that there are major flaws in our current system. Check out the OSHER Center for Integrative Medicine. There are several across the country at reputable institutions such as Harvard and UCSF. They incorporate "alternative" or "holistic" approaches into their practice as MD's and also conduct legit studies on alternative practices that are not yet backed by enough clear evidence. It's a really cool initiative in my opinion.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Polycystic ovary syndrome, uterine cysts/fibroids, painful/heavy periods, etc. Often these disorders are treated with hormonal birth control which is not fixing the root cause of the issue, but rather just masking it. That is, until the woman decides she wants to have kids 10 years later, gets off BC, only to discover that the problem was never fixed and now she's not fertile. I am in no way, shape or form defending naturopathic medicine, but I agree with Twohighway that there are major flaws in our current system. Check out the OSHER Center for Integrative Medicine. There are several across the country at reputable institutions such as Harvard and UCSF. They incorporate "alternative" or "holistic" approaches into their practice as MD's and also conduct legit studies on alternative practices that are not yet backed by enough clear evidence. It's a really cool initiative in my opinion.

There's no such thing as alternative medicine. If it is studied and works, it is just medicine. "Alternative" is a buzzword these snake oil salesmen use to try to convince people to buy their crap.

And I'm not sure what you mean by some of those things. Fibroids? You know how to treat the root cause? Surgery. That's why a lot of people don't get them treated right away, especially if they want kids at some point. For menorrhagia, the most commonly prescribed therapy is progestin which absolutely addresses the root cause. Unless you think these women are suffering because they aren't getting enough vitamin C.

 

[sab3156]

Polycystic ovary syndrome, uterine cysts/fibroids, painful/heavy periods, etc. Often these disorders are treated with hormonal birth control which is not fixing the root cause of the issue, but rather just masking it. That is, until the woman decides she wants to have kids 10 years later, gets off BC, only to discover that the problem was never fixed and now she's not fertile. I am in no way, shape or form defending naturopathic medicine, but I agree with Twohighway that there are major flaws in our current system. Check out the OSHER Center for Integrative Medicine. There are several across the country at reputable institutions such as Harvard and UCSF. They incorporate "alternative" or "holistic" approaches into their practice as MD's and also conduct legit studies on alternative practices that are not yet backed by enough clear evidence. It's a really cool initiative in my opinion.

These are even worse examples than the previous ones that were given.

PCOS - there is no cure, and the symptoms can only be treated with endocrine medication.
Uterine fibroids - surgery is the definitive cure, but patients sometimes don't want to do that because the surgery may cause them to lose their entire uterus and they may want to try having kids before then. Sometimes medication is enough to shrink the fibroids.

Are you a pre-med? The good thing is you'll learn about this in medical school so that you won't make claims like this in the future.

 

[dpmd]

Polycystic ovary syndrome, uterine cysts/fibroids, painful/heavy periods, etc. Often these disorders are treated with hormonal birth control which is not fixing the root cause of the issue, but rather just masking it. That is, until the woman decides she wants to have kids 10 years later, gets off BC, only to discover that the problem was never fixed and now she's not fertile. I am in no way, shape or form defending naturopathic medicine, but I agree with Twohighway that there are major flaws in our current system. Check out the OSHER Center for Integrative Medicine. There are several across the country at reputable institutions such as Harvard and UCSF. They incorporate "alternative" or "holistic" approaches into their practice as MD's and also conduct legit studies on alternative practices that are not yet backed by enough clear evidence. It's a really cool initiative in my opinion.

What root cause do you think needs to be managed instead and how do you think it needs to be managed for those?

 

[TwoHighways]

Every single physician recommends lifestyle changes to help patients with those diseases. It's not the physicians job to force people to exercise (they can recommend it, and do recommend it). It's up to people to make those lifestyle adjustments. Endocrinology and Cardiology departments, for example, also usually have nutritionists that patients can set up appointments with if they need help with lifestyle changes related to their diet. These diseases are also insanely complex and do not only have a relationship with poor diet and lack of exercise. You're making huge assumptions about stuff you've never dealt with.

I'm curious, though - do you have any better examples, or is that all you could come up with?

Rheumatoid arthritis. Leaky gut syndrome. IBS. Crohn’s. Lupus. Neuropathy. Dementia/Alzheimer’s. Various psychiatric disorders. I deal with inflammed, profoundly insulin resistant people every shift.

 

[Warder]

Waste of money on a degree that will most likely go away in the next 25-50 years. I'm seeing a trend of medical schools adopt other aspects of medicine (e.g. culinary medicine) into med school curricula. Stuff that's evidence-based in that "realm" of ND but not crackery

Someone once told me that "alternative medicine" that actually works just ends up being called medicine.

 

[gyngyn]

I'm going to interject here. There is a profound difference of opinion on unproven therapies in this thread.
As long as we can maintain collegiality, the thread will continue. If there is divergence into name-calling, it won't.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

what run of the mill family doctor is coaching patients on what they should and shouldn’t be eating? What run of the mill family doctor has the time to? Most are just happy to prescribe a statin, ace inhibitor, beta blocker, and metformin. Kick the can down the road, while not addressing the root cause. What doctor has any training in nutrition that didn’t come from their own interest in the subject? I’m glad that things are changing in this respect. Clearly what we’re eating and the nutritional guidelines have failed us. You can’t out exercise a ****ty diet. Period. These are areas that mainstream medicine has failed people. Insulin resistance/the metabolic syndrome are the drivers of chronic disease and roughly .90 of every dollar is spent treating chronic disease. It’s a pandemic we’re exporting at this point. It’s insanity. It can’t be sustained indefinitely. It’s bankrupting us.

 

[TwoHighways]

Keep up the good fight! You’re practicing real medicine.

 

[narla_hotep]

What exactly do they do? I came across an office sign that read "Naturopathic Oncology" and that sort of peaked my curiosity.

This. This is what they do:

“Chemotherapy is for losers”: A tragic tale of cancer, naturopathic quackery, and murder

When a patient and her family trust a naturopath rather than oncologists and oncologic surgeons, the result is often tragic. In this case, Fikreta Ibrisevic trusted naturopath Juan Sanchez Gonzalez in

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Stuff

www.stuff.co.nz

Why one naturopath quit after watching her peers treat cancer patients

"What was off-putting was watching the other naturopaths in my office practice."

www.vox.com

 

[longhaul3]

Rheumatoid arthritis. Leaky gut syndrome. IBS. Crohn’s. Lupus. Neuropathy. Dementia/Alzheimer’s. Various psychiatric disorders. I deal with inflammed, profoundly insulin resistant people every shift.

What? How can you lump Crohn's and IBS together? You listed a handful of devastating autoimmune disorders that have been pretty thoroughly elucidated and then...IBS and leaky gut syndrome (which is frank pseudoscience).

RA is probably the worst possible example. Before DMARDs people were progressively and inexorably crippled by RA. Now it would be a crime not to start an RA patient on a DMARD. In fact, it's the only way to change the natural history of the disease—the only treatment that is "disease modifying." Nutmeg will not help an RA patient.

 

[deleted480308]

ND’s wouldn’t exist if mainstream medicine did a better job at treating the root causes of disease instead of treating symptoms. Maybe some reflection on the current state of medicine would be more productive than writing off ND training as quackery. What has mainstream medicine done for addressing the metabolic syndrome epidemic? Food for thought.

Caveat: I have no idea what ND training actually consists of.

Food for thought? The thought is fat people need to eat less food. Avoiding metabolic syndrome is stupidly simple but self restraint is difficult and people want to eat

 

[TwoHighways]

I leave y’all with this. It’s not a randomized controlled trial, but I hope it makes clear the elephant in the room. Read it, or don’t. Change is coming, people are coming to understand chronic disease in ways that isn’t taught in medical school.

Insulin resistance, selfish brain, and selfish immune system: an evolutionarily positively selected program used in chronic inflammatory diseases - Arthritis Research & Therapy

Insulin resistance (IR) is a general phenomenon of many physiological states, disease states, and diseases. IR has been described in diabetes mellitus, obesity, infection, sepsis, trauma, painful states such as postoperative pain and migraine, schizophrenia, major depression, chronic mental...

arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com

 

[narla_hotep]

Annd, where is the naturopathy in this? Sounds like a peer reviewed article about insulin resistance, which is something MD's definitely learn about in school. Of course, research may later show us that some of what we learned wasn't fully right, but in that case we live and learn and adapt our curricula. That's how evidence based medicine works.

 

[Goro]

I leave y’all with this. It’s not a randomized controlled trial, but I hope it makes clear the elephant in the room. Read it, or don’t. Change is coming, people are coming to understand chronic disease in ways that isn’t taught in medical school.

Insulin resistance, selfish brain, and selfish immune system: an evolutionarily positively selected program used in chronic inflammatory diseases - Arthritis Research & Therapy

Insulin resistance (IR) is a general phenomenon of many physiological states, disease states, and diseases. IR has been described in diabetes mellitus, obesity, infection, sepsis, trauma, painful states such as postoperative pain and migraine, schizophrenia, major depression, chronic mental...

arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com

I'll have to repeat what is mentioned above: whatever the failing of modern medicine are, they are not excuses for quack treatments or pseudoscience. In fact, believers in woo (and it IS a belief system) often use the "failings of Medicine" as a proof for their own nostrums.

 

[dpmd]

Rheumatoid arthritis. Leaky gut syndrome. IBS. Crohn’s. Lupus. Neuropathy. Dementia/Alzheimer’s. Various psychiatric disorders. I deal with inflammed, profoundly insulin resistant people every shift.

And what root cause management are you claiming is being withheld from these?

 

[FutureSurgical]

Read it, or don’t. Change is coming, people are coming to understand chronic disease in ways that isn’t taught in medical school

How do you know how disease is taught in medical school if you won't matriculate until this fall?

 

[jecki46]

@Goro, @gonnif I think y'all will enjoy this!

 

[ciestar]

An increasing number of people i know are engaging in woo. Aka, MLM snake oil people that claim they can cure diabetes, cancer, the flu, act as vaccinations, etc.

That is my concern with an ND, do they shill this stuff too? Nobody should be telling my friend that cinnamon oil with cure her 10 year old of DM1.

 

[deleted480308]

I leave y’all with this. It’s not a randomized controlled trial, but I hope it makes clear the elephant in the room. Read it, or don’t. Change is coming, people are coming to understand chronic disease in ways that isn’t taught in medical school.

Insulin resistance, selfish brain, and selfish immune system: an evolutionarily positively selected program used in chronic inflammatory diseases - Arthritis Research & Therapy

Insulin resistance (IR) is a general phenomenon of many physiological states, disease states, and diseases. IR has been described in diabetes mellitus, obesity, infection, sepsis, trauma, painful states such as postoperative pain and migraine, schizophrenia, major depression, chronic mental...

arthritis-research.biomedcentral.com

What specifically do you think this “makes clear”?

And what specifically do you know about medical school?

 

[Doctoscope]