What is the real point of interviews

[mcloaf]

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Right, because that was the point of the post....

👎

Fair enough. This is what happens when I try to post while I'm streaming lectures. 🙁

 

[Dbate]

Fair enough. This is what happens when I try to post while I'm streaming lectures. 🙁

Woah, somebody on SDN didn't try to escalate an argument!

Are there actually good people on the internet?!?!?!

 

[14app91]

You're right, my example was extreme, but the point I was trying to make is sometimes you don't have a choice of where to spend your money, especially if you don't have much to start with.

No I understand where you're coming from and I'm on your side more than anything. I don't mean to come off as a prick, although I probably did.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Fixed that for you.

Let's not pretend we're not paying for this "privilege"--which we actually had to work to earn.

So I don't think describing it as a "privilege" is even right. Unless the "privilege" was busting our asses for four years and studying hard for an admissions test.

You do realize that the cost of medical education is far greater than what you pay in tuition right?? Since you are aiming at the Texas public schools, let me make the following example tailored to your situation.

Texas public schools receive significant endowments from the state of Texas to subsidize the cost of tuition to keep actual cost of attendance lower. In return, these medical schools agree to accept a very large portion of its students from within the state. This benefits the state by having adequate physicians in the future.

In closing, they are not taking your money, but in reality paying for part of your education.

 

[circulus vitios]

You do realize that the cost of medical education is far greater than what you pay in tuition right?? Since you are aiming at the Texas public schools, let me make the following example tailored to your situation.

Texas public schools receive significant endowments from the state of Texas to subsidize the cost of tuition to keep actual cost of attendance lower. In return, these medical schools agree to accept a very large portion of its students from within the state. This benefits the state by having adequate physicians in the future.

In closing, they are not taking your money, but in reality paying for part of your education.

Ever hear of Hollywood accounting?

 

[Kinch]

Reading these posts makes me feel very lucky to live in Southeast Michigan. I have 3 IIs that will probably collectively cost me about $150 and was given enough notice to trade shifts at work. Ridiculous amount of great schools within driving distance.

 

[Dbate]

You do realize that the cost of medical education is far greater than what you pay in tuition right?? Since you are aiming at the Texas public schools, let me make the following example tailored to your situation.

Texas public schools receive significant endowments from the state of Texas to subsidize the cost of tuition to keep actual cost of attendance lower. In return, these medical schools agree to accept a very large portion of its students from within the state. This benefits the state by having adequate physicians in the future.

In closing, they are not taking your money, but in reality paying for part of your education.

That's not a legitimate argument. My parents (and several other taxpayers) provide that money. The school is not giving it to you for free because it's not the school's money.

Additionally, the argument that it costs much more to educate students than what tuition charges doesn't hold water to the fact that tuition increases at medical schools have exceeded any type of benchmark for inflation (even if you peg it to healthcare-specific inflationary measures).


When you look at the economics, there is no justification for the increases. They certainly aren't going to pay professors more.

Besides, I will take the skills I learn and contribute to society. If anything, it is more of an investment on the state's part and the return offered to society (in terms of the lives future physicians may potentially save) more than covers whatever is spent educating students multiple times over.

As an aside, it costs far more than just tuition to attend medical school. Any economic analysis of capital outflows should taken into account opportunity cost. I make about 75K a year at my current job. So the actual cost of med school, in my case, would be 4 years of tuition + 300K. But that is just a technical argument because those are unrealized dollars.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Ever hear of Hollywood accounting?

Yes, medical schools and hollywood movie companies have the same agenda.🙄

That's not a legitimate argument. My parents (and several other taxpayers) provide that money. The school is not giving it to you for free because it's not the school's money.

It also includes that taxpayers who dont have kids or who have kids that arent in medical schools. So THEY are also paying for your education. Maybe they shouldnt pay for you either since its unfair to them?

Additionally, the argument that it costs much more to educate students than what tuition charges doesn't hold water to the fact that tuition increases at medical schools have exceeded any type of benchmark for inflation (even if you peg it to healthcare-specific inflationary measures).

When you look at the economics, there is no justification for the increases. They certainly aren't going to pay professors more.

If you look at the tuition rates for texas schools, the increase is insignificant. Texas also has a law that there cant be a tuition increase of more than 3%

Besides, I will take the skills I learn and contribute to society. If anything, it is more of an investment on the state's part and the return offered to society (in terms of the lives future physicians may potentially save) more than covers whatever is spent educating students multiple times over.

You are right that its an investment, but you can just as easily take your skills elsewhere to another state. That would result in the state wasting its money and resources on you and receiving no benefit.

 

[Dbate]

It also includes that taxpayers who dont have kids or who have kids that arent in medical schools. So THEY are also paying for your education. Maybe they shouldnt pay for you either since its unfair to them?

Their tax dollars help to ensure that the state has an adequate number of physicians. So when they go to the emergency room or need surgery they can know that a highly trained physician will be there to take care of them.

Even if they don't have children or aren't in medical school, they still reap the benefits of the investment.

If you look at the tuition rates for texas schools, the increase is insignificant. Texas also has a law that there cant be a tuition increase of more than 3%

That's a factor unique to texas, so it is a point I will concede that I was wrong about.

You are right that its an investment, but you can just as easily take your skills elsewhere to another state. That would result in the state wasting its money and resources on you and receiving no benefit.

I think this takes a parochial view of how benefits are distributed. The mobility open to me is also open to many other residents of Texas. And similarly, residents of other states can move to Texas as well.


The free flow of people across state boundaries means that even if I don't stay in Texas after med school (I actually intend to move to California), I will still contribute to society on the national level. And given the inflow and outflow of people from state to state, I think viewing the overall benefit on this level is appropriate.

 

[Dbate]

To bring the conversation closer to the original topic of this thread, what are the factors that determine if someone is admitted post interview?

Can a faculty member or individual who has sat on an admissions committee (like Ismet, iirc) shed light on this?

For the vast majority of people, the interview is probably neutral. So what does it come down to when they are sitting in the ad com meeting room?

Stats? Lors?



I received two interviews from two literal dream schools (read: the crown jewels of Texas) that were reaches, and I am worried about how this will eventually play out.

 

[DylanE]

To bring the conversation closer to the original topic of this thread, what are the factors that determine if someone is admitted post interview?

Can a faculty member or individual who has sat on an admissions committee (like Ismet, iirc) shed light on this?

For the vast majority of people, the interview is probably neutral. So what does it come down to when they are sitting in the ad com meeting room?

Stats? Lors?



I received two interviews from two literal dream schools (read: the crown jewels of Texas) that were reaches, and I am worried about how this will eventually play out.

At a school on Tuesday I had my interviewer explicitly state that the interview review accounted for "50 percent" of what factored into an acceptance. Of course n equals one in this case, but I can't imagine they are the only school that cares about them.

 

[gyngyn]

To bring the conversation closer to the original topic of this thread, what are the factors that determine if someone is admitted post interview?

Can a faculty member or individual who has sat on an admissions committee (like Ismet, iirc) shed light on this?

For the vast majority of people, the interview is probably neutral. So what does it come down to when they are sitting in the ad com meeting room?

Stats? Lors?



I received two interviews from two literal dream schools (read: the crown jewels of Texas) that were reaches, and I am worried about how this will eventually play out.

I hope you get in to one of them so that California can reap the reward of your greatness.

 

[Dbate]

I hope you get in to one of them so that California can reap the reward of your greatness.

 

[Dbate]

At a school on Tuesday I had my interviewer explicitly state that the interview review accounted for "50 percent" of what factored into an acceptance. Of course n equals one in this case, but I can't imagine they are the only school that cares about them.

Wow, do you mind sharing what school this is?

I wonder if this is generalizable to most schools. Another poster did mention that they spend a considerable amount of resources on interviewing applicants, so it must matter somewhat at ever school.

 

[Ismet]

To bring the conversation closer to the original topic of this thread, what are the factors that determine if someone is admitted post interview?

Can a faculty member or individual who has sat on an admissions committee (like Ismet, iirc) shed light on this?

For the vast majority of people, the interview is probably neutral. So what does it come down to when they are sitting in the ad com meeting room?

Stats? Lors?

As with most things, this varies greatly between schools, so giving a couple n=1 examples won't really be beneficial.

 

[gyngyn]

At a school on Tuesday I had my interviewer explicitly state that the interview review accounted for "50 percent" of what factored into an acceptance. Of course n equals one in this case, but I can't imagine they are the only school that cares about them.

Once you are invited for an interview, it becomes the single most important factor in your decision (at my school).

 

[DylanE]

Wow, do you mind sharing what school this is?

I wonder if this is generalizable to most schools. Another poster did mention that they spend a considerable amount of resources on interviewing applicants, so it must matter somewhat at ever school.

Tufts. But they place a lot of emphasis on underserved communities and social justice, so they are definitely looking for a certain personality type.

 

[Status Sciaticus]

Their tax dollars help to ensure that the state has an adequate number of physicians. So when they go to the emergency room or need surgery they can know that a highly trained physician will be there to take care of them.

Even if they don't have children or aren't in medical school, they still reap the benefits of the investment.

They still do not benefit as much your family because in addition to receiving the same benefits as them, your family also has a physician and a higher overall income status than a tax-paying family without a son who is a doctor.



That's a factor unique to texas, so it is a point I will concede that I was wrong about.




I think this takes a parochial view of how benefits are distributed. The mobility open to me is also open to many other residents of Texas. And similarly, residents of other states can move to Texas as well.


The free flow of people across state boundaries means that even if I don't stay in Texas after med school (I actually intend to move to California), I will still contribute to society on the national level. And given the inflow and outflow of people from state to state, I think viewing the overall benefit on this level is appropriate.

The point still stands texas schools are putting an increased level of investment in you compared to other out of state schools where tuition rates are still in the 40K/year area.

Neither. He is being facetious and cynical.

 

[Dbate]

As with most things, this varies greatly between schools, so giving a couple n=1 examples won't really be beneficial.

From a rational point of view, I know this is true.

But as an applicant looking from the outside (with literally no clue of how schools make decisions), anything helps!

 

[gyngyn]

Neither. He is being facetious and cynical.

Facetious, yes. Cynical, no.

 

[Mr Avante]

From a rational point of view, I know this is true.

But as an applicant looking from the outside (with literally no clue of how schools make decisions), anything helps!

what are you looking for?

 

[Dbate]

what are you looking for?

I just wanted to hear anecdotes of how their school's admissions committee makes decisions after interviews.

 

[Mr Avante]

I just wanted to hear anecdotes of how their school's admissions committee makes decisions after interviews.

by making little notes of your performance during the interview and then reviewing them when your case is being discussed.

@gyngyn, do you guys record each interview at your place?

 

[solitarius]

Tufts. But they place a lot of emphasis on underserved communities and social justice, so they are definitely looking for a certain personality type.

The irony (hypocrisy?) here is that they are the most expensive school in the country.

I guess they figured out how their highly-indebted graduates can make this work in their careers.

 

[gyngyn]

by making little notes of your performance during the interview and then reviewing them when your case is being discussed.

@gyngyn, do you guys record each interview at your place?

Video recorded?

 

[Mr Avante]

Video recorded?

yeah

 

[gyngyn]

yeah

That's creepy. No.

 

[Ismet]

Video recorded?

yeah

lol talk about awkward

 

[Mr Avante]

That's creepy. No.

lol talk about awkward

Weird. I thought your committee video recorded applicants.

 

[gyngyn]

Weird. I thought your committee video recorded applicants.

How would you know my committee?

 

[Starry]

Once you are invited for an interview, it becomes the single most important factor in your decision (at my school).

So how would a person with a 3.8/38 with an average interview be compared with a 3.5/32 with a slightly above avg interview? Do the stats not matter anymore? EC's? Research?

 

[Ismet]

Weird. I thought your committee video recorded applicants.

i don't know if any school video record interviews....it's incredibly creepy and committee members don't have time to watch hundreds of videos when they can just trust the interviewer to give a good report.

 

[gyngyn]

So how would a person with a 3.8/38 with an average interview be compared with a 3.5/32 with a slightly above avg interview? Do the stats not matter anymore? EC's? Research?

After you are invited, the interviews have the most weight. An adorable 32 will beat a flat affect 38 every time. You see, they aren't competing against each other, they are being evaluated on their desirability.

 

[Starry]

After you are invited, the interviews have the most weight. An adorable 32 will beat a flat affect 38 every time. You see, they aren't competing against each other, they are being evaluated on their desirability.

I see. Time to crank up my adorable-ness then. 😉

 

[gyngyn]

I see. Time to crank up my adorable-ness then. 😉

You bet.

 

[Mr Avante]

i don't know if any school video record interviews....it's incredibly creepy and committee members don't have time to watch hundreds of videos when they can just trust the interviewer to give a good report.

we do

 

[PhysMatMan]

we do

Do you at least inform applicants that you are recording them?

 

[Mr Avante]

Do you at least inform applicants that you are recording them?

A signature is required before the interview. You can pretty much accept or refuse to participate. (The interviewing panel has a psychologist, and no, I am not an examiner).

 

[PhysMatMan]

A signature is required before the interview. You can pretty much accept or refuse to participate. (The interviewing panel has a psychologist, and no, I am not an examiner).

That doesn't sound at all like an interrogation.🙄

 

[terp720]

As an aside, it costs far more than just tuition to attend medical school. Any economic analysis of capital outflows should taken into account opportunity cost. I make about 75K a year at my current job. So the actual cost of med school, in my case, would be 4 years of tuition + 300K. But that is just a technical argument because those are unrealized dollars.

Even with FAP, the process has cost well north of $2000 and I still have three interviews left 🙁

I'm sorry if this is nosy, but you can make $75K and still qualify for FAP?

 

[Mr Avante]

That doesn't sound at all like an interrogation.🙄

it's not
it's paramount to capture the atmosphere of the interview; It gives you a natural picture of the applicant. Besides, it's always fun when someone farts or has stomach rumbling ("Grace under pressure" ).

 

[Dbate]

I'm sorry if this is nosy, but you can make $75K and still qualify for FAP?

I just graduated and only got this job about two months ago. I got FAP to apply for the mcat when I was a student in college, so it was only based on my parents' income.

 

[Lya]

Albany has anonymous evaluators taking notes while watching through a video camera in all MMI stations. I am not sure if they record all the interviews, but I highly doubt it.

It is not creepy at all, but rather making interviewees feel easier with their interviews, because they don't have to feel stared by another person standing and taking notes in the same room behind you.

 

[gyngyn]

Albany has anonymous evaluators taking notes while watching through a video camera in all MMI stations. I am not sure if they record all the interviews, but I highly doubt it.
.

It's a Brave New World, I guess...

 

[yehhhboiii]

Albany has anonymous evaluators taking notes while watching through a video camera in all MMI stations. I am not sure if they record all the interviews, but I highly doubt it.

It is not creepy at all, but rather making interviewees feel easier with their interviews, because they don't have to feel stared by another person standing and taking notes in the same room behind you.

uh that is more creepy
you don't know who's watching and you know that they are

 

[Lya]

Namerguy,

I think the situation is far more complicated than this.

I can see where there are issues of contention. Some people feel that they interviewed well, but their fate was decided beforehand due to their weaker application. This would cause some to question whether the interview really makes or breaks your application as some claim, or whether it's just another data point. And if it's another data point, it's an expensive hurdle at that. Others question whether the interview process is fair due to random selection of interviewers. And then there's just the uncertainty that many are dealing with about II's and getting accepted. Many would feel more at ease if they were crushing this app cycle like you.

On the other hand, I completely agree with your assessment.

- The schools invest a large amount of their resources and time to interview applicants. So it's obviously important to them. That senior faculty agree to read apps and interview applicants says a lot about how it is important to the school.
- You're going to have to "interview" for anything that is truly desirable and many things less desirable. That includes any job, a nicer job, your spouse/girlfriend, residency, and all Attending positions in the future. The better the gig, the more rigorous the selection process and the odder the interview.
- I think a lot of people aren't used to interviewing at this level. When my friends and I applied to colleges, the ones who went to Ivy League schools or scholarships for prestigious schools had to do interviews. The folks who went to the local state U or community college did not.

I think it's just the frustration with the process, the uncertainty of it, the reality that people may go home empty handed and having invested a lot of money and much of their lives over the past few years is what is drawing out the frustration. Can't expect everyone to be calm and mature when so much emotions are being laid out on the line here.

As a re-applicant, I understand the level of uncertainty and frustration this whole process entails, especially when having no II.

Sometimes, when people say they interviewed well, even their performances are subjective and could vary at a larger scale. Not all interviews with feeling great post-interview are actually great, after all. So, just because people don't get in even with their interviews that they felt great afterwards, I would hope that they should at least consider what could have gone wrong in their applications or interviews, before blaming on the whole process. At least, this is what I did and tried to improve the application for this cycle, and it is paying off fortunately.


I especially understand the last paragraph, however. It is just that there are too many of us investing equally a lot of resources, while there are simply significantly fewer spots available. If these two numbers are equal, we would have felt much more worthwhile with all of our investments and with less uncertainty and frustration. However, we simply cannot make everyone happy due to a limited number of spots available, and someone has to go empty-handed. How would you address these empty-handed applicants?

 

[yehhhboiii]

I've had to miss 3 days for every interview that requires a flight. When I add up lost income, the gas spent driving to/from the airport, airport parking, flight tickets, meals, car rentals or taxis, and hotels, it's $800-1000. Thank god I live with my parents because I couldn't stand losing that much money per month, multiplied by however many interviews I have, while still trying to pay my bills.

Not to mention it's a hassle taking that time off work. My bosses are somewhat understanding, although it's still unpaid time off. I was expecting to be fired and I imagine other bosses aren't as understanding.

 

[luckylee3]

law schools do skype interviews. why cant med schools?

I feel like med school is like baseball. stubborn to change even when we have the technology to do so

 

[deleted393595]

I went through the interview process for consulting firms.

The difference is that Wall street firms pay for all your travel/flights there and back, pay for your lodging in a hotel, and pay for all your meals the entire time you are there to interview. That is for all applicants regardless of whether or not you are hired.

So when I went to the final round in Dallas with Oliver Wyman, they flew me from CT to TX, put me in a nice hotel, and paid for expensive meals.

I wonder what the acceptance rate would be post-interview, if med schools had to cover all that for all interviewees.

+1. Thanks for pointing this out too.

So here's what I don't understand about the hypocrisy of med schools: They expect us to be super altruistic and willing to sacrifice our lives for the general population, but they force us to pay for our own travel and lodging costs, and then charge us through the nose for tuition....

I mean, where does that tuition money go? Especially during 3rd and 4th year when you're basically paying the med school to do free work...

--------------

With Obamacare happening soon, I wouldn't be surprised if the smart people going into medicine decide that there are much better and higher paying opportunities elsewhere. For example, associates worth their salt on Wall Street can get paid 100k+ while working 60 hours a week by the time they're 27ish, and if they're really good, they can make partner in a firm by their early 40s and earn 1-3 million a year not including bonus (This data applies to only a certain sector in finance that I'm not going to reveal since it could very well give me away in real life).

I'm not saying that all people going into med school could pull that off if they decided to go to Wall Street - just a very elite 1% of that crowd could, but it's worth noting that the financials of med school and the statist thinking down in DC is going to drive this smart-elite group out of medicine.

Yes. You shouldn't be doing it for the money. But what's the point if you can't afford to get a house in your 30s because as a PCP you still owe a ton of money back to your med school?

I'm especially worried about this too for specialists since it seems that Obama and our fellow folks in DC seem to think that specialists make too much in comparison to PCPs (even though PCP pay was purposely driven down by Medicare) and thus specialists should make less...

 

[luckylee3]

+1. Thanks for pointing this out too.

So here's what I don't understand about the hypocrisy of med schools: They expect us to be super altruistic and willing to sacrifice our lives for the general population, but they force us to pay for our own travel and lodging costs, and then charge us through the nose for tuition....

I mean, where does that tuition money go? Especially during 3rd and 4th year when you're basically paying the med school to do free work...

to the pockets of school administrators. we are all slaves while these people laugh their way to the bank. it's how life works son. sometimes i wonder if altruism is just a facade in medicine. i mean who doesnt like money?