What is your point of disagreement with the SDN hive mind?

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Zebra Hunter said:
I disagree with the frequent piling on pre-meds for asking about physician compensation. I find it absurd that many of my peers think of medicine as something more than a job, and that deciding to become a physician partly due to the compensation means they won't be good physicians.
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Word. People are motivated by money. Motivation is key in any venture. Motivation makes greatness. It's one thing to say that people who are motivated wholly by money won't be good doctors, but even partly? Physicians are not some godsend altruists who will work for no money. lol please.

Cut physician pay by 75%, and see if the national acceptance rate will still be 43%. It's no secret why this is one of the most competitive countries in medical school admissions – doctors enjoy job guarantees and security that virtually no other career gives them. With that comes monopoly power, high incomes, etc. It doesn't mean they can't be altruists with financial incentives.
 
Catman21 said:
I can honestly say i hate the go-getter, get ahead, laughably pretentious, zero social skill/relatablity personality type of the majority of pre-meds, and med students.
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Hasn't been my experience.
 
Catman21 said:
I can honestly say i hate the go-getter, get ahead, laughably pretentious, zero social skill/relatablity personality type of the majority of pre-meds, and med students.
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Sadly it doesn't end in med school... The cattyness and backstabbing about who's going to be next year's chief residents make me feel like I'm in a sorority.
 
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wowsers said:
Word. People are motivated by money. Motivation is key in any venture. Motivation makes greatness. It's one thing to say that people who are motivated wholly by money won't be good doctors, but even partly? Physicians are not some godsend altruists who will work for no money. lol please.

Cut physician pay by 75%, and see if the national acceptance rate will still be 43%. It's no secret why this is one of the most competitive countries in medical school admissions – doctors enjoy job guarantees and security that virtually no other career gives them. With that comes monopoly power, high incomes, etc. It doesn't mean they can't be altruists with financial incentives.
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I generally agree with this but I would make a strong qualification:

One should not treat money as an end in and of itself and doing so is a huge mistake. I think this is the difference between being motivated partly and wholly by money but I'm not sure it's what people mean when they say they are "partly" motivated by money.

The end should be: raise a family, give kids a quality education, have health insurance, pay for your location's living standards and then have money left over for a reasonable amount of leisure, live in a safe neighborhood etc. Even those aren't really ends because the actual ends are caring for yourself and the people you care about. The quantity of money, that is means, that can achieve these ends is small compared to even the median physician salary. So I would say that we shouldn't jump on people who say they are motivated by money but if you know anything about physician comp then it should be a total after-thought imho. Now being concerned about debt....that's serious and everyone should probably have this in mind going into this when they are considering their options.

Make Or Break said:
I have come to the realization that the way medicine operates is more like a business and is not an entitlement for the betterment of society.
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Yah, I think the discussions over in Allo make it pretty clear that the Allo-hive agrees with this and I would have to strongly disagree. Medicine is a business in the sense that people need to make money somewhere and someone has to pay for the service, we can't spend all of our money on futile care, we have to be prudent in the way we allocate care for each patient, allocate facilities for a specific population, etc. so we can deliver the cheapest, best care to the people that need it the most.

If you start from the assumption that affordable, accessible healthcare is a right then I think that's the kind of business you get out. If you start from the assumption that all of medicine is just a business then you get the 1980s.
 
Nurses can do a physician's job even better due to their heightened intimacy with the patients

Medical schools should have a lottery admission system where it's only by chance people are accepted and not based on GPA/MCAT/ECs etc, to level the playing field (not everyone is a good test taker or performs well in academic settings so these people are at a natural disadvantage)

Since everyone looks down on physicians who joined the profession for money, physicians should only be compensated by free in-hospital/clinic Chinese buffets
 
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Godspeedyou said:
Nurses can do a physician's job even better due to their heightened intimacy with the patients

Medical schools should have a lottery admission system where it's only by chance people are accepted and not based on GPA/MCAT/ECs etc, to level the playing field

Since everyone looks down on physicians who joined the profession for money, physicians should only be compensated by free in-hospital/clinic Chinese buffets
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Uhh...??

Wait, you're the new neighborhood troll, right?
 
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Mad Jack said:
Personally I actually don't think it's that bad, but there are a lot of things about it I don't like.
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Mad Jack said:
I'm okay with reform, but not this reform.
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...I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Nice to see you try and back-peddle though, after practicing physicians and residents chimed in against you.

Honestly, I tried looking through your thread but it was very hard to take seriously since it pretty much just turned into a "THANKS OBAMA" circlejerk.
 
Cyndaquil MD said:
Honestly, I tried looking through your thread but it was very hard to take seriously since it pretty much just turned into a "THANKS OBAMA" circlejerk.
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Lets not forget the fella claiming having to pay an income tax was equivalent to being robbed.
 
When pre-meds post the "where should I apply" or "is this a good list of schools to apply toir" and other pre-meds or even some med students say they should get into school X because of their stats. Specific example is when people say an applicant will get into DO schools just because of a high MCAT or GPA, as if the rest of the application isn't important.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
1. I have gotten a few good snippets of advice that I have applied to my life to increase my odds of getting into school off of here, but the major issue of (atleast the pre-med forum) is that it is (for the most part) students trying to give advice to other students. A lot of the members on here post as if they have made it through med-school or are on admissions committees trying to give each other advice on their own anecdotal life experiences of things they've read that aren't always based off of research regarding admissions, but rather things they've read themselves on here and have essentially turned into a big game of online-telephone.
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Yeah, that's kinda the point of a "forum," ya know... Informed hearsay is better than uninformed hearsay or no hearsay. But you're correct that it's hard to differentiate among those things unless you've been around for a while and learn how to.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
1. I have gotten a few good snippets of advice that I have applied to my life to increase my odds of getting into school off of here, but the major issue of (atleast the pre-med forum) is that it is (for the most part) students trying to give advice to other students. A lot of the members on here post as if they have made it through med-school or are on admissions committees trying to give each other advice on their own anecdotal life experiences of things they've read that aren't always based off of research regarding admissions, but rather things they've read themselves on here and have essentially turned into a big game of online-telephone.

2. The hate for alternative care providers, Caribbean schools, and the like. SDN is literally the only source that I've utilized that has such deeply ingrained hate for the two I just mentioned. Yes, I have been warned by physicians that Caribbean schools are iffy at times, but the stats I've seen here are blown wayyyyy out of proportion, you can literally take any statistic and rearrange some data to fit your own viewpoint. As for alternative providers and their specializations, on here it seems to be a consensus that they are all bumbling hippy idiots who are killing patients left and right. However in real life the doctors I know absolutely LOVE THEM. We have an integrated oncology program at my hospital that has NDs and MDs/DOs working side by side, and there is mutual respect, neither side thinks the other is misguided or filled with false medicine that just exists to make a buck. Again, as above, returning to the students-teaching-students point, most of us have never experienced it and are lecturing based off of anecdotal evidence.

3. The hypocrisy, plain and simple. I have read posts dating back a year or two, and see conflicting viewpoints regarding what is good, what is bad, what will get you into med school, and what will absolutely keep you out. I have even seen it on my own posts; 6 months ago I was told by many of you I have no chance of getting into a medical school. Then a month ago after I asked a question regarding taking my ND acceptance vs taking the chance to apply MD/ DO this upcoming cycle, I was told "you can walk into almost any DO school, and have a solid chance at some mid/ low-tier med schools". Literally the only thing that changed was that my GPA went up .05 points. There was even a flip-flop regarding my leadership in my fraternity. First it was said that I shouldn't even list that I was in one, even though it was something that shaped me into what I am today, then I was told that it is something awesome that I should emphasize.

Just my 2 cents.
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Hmmm, we haven't had a good alternative medicine thread in any of the Allo boards since I've been back... sad too. The takedowns in those end up being a thing of beauty.
 
OK, I'll play:

1) I'm just a premed under the age of 25, but I know more than actual Adcom members at medical schools, medical students, residents and clinicians.
2) I'm not yet 25 and have experienced X, and therefore, this experience applies equally to everyone else and everywhere else.
3) That you need a 3.9 and a 40 MCAT to get into med school.
4) That outliers are = the norm.


One the plus side, I have found SDNers to be overwhelmingly helpful and altruistic. There may be a surplus of anxiety and neuroses here, but I think the future of American medicine is in good hands. I wish I could get more of you as my students...but from some of the posts I've seen, a few of you are, or will be. No, I'm not going to share, either.
 
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SDN gives too optimistic advice, in my experience. everyone seems too positive. I have a friend who has a 2.1 sGPA, and was dismissed from graduate school and people here say he can still get in. I am not so sure about that advice though as people I know in person tell my otherwise. I hope SDN is right though.
 
scrublyfe21 said:
Alternative medicine is here to stay in my opinion. Hell, when it was first recognized in the medical community Osteopathic medicine was in the same boat as Naturopathic Physicians are in today, just with much less bureaucratic red tape to fight through, during the days when men were men and lawyers didn't rule every decision we make. I highly recommend shadowing with an alternative practitioner to see what it's about and what they do. You might be impressed at the difference they can make in the lives of the chronically ill, even if it is mostly quality of life related. I look at it this way; Many of the attacks against alternative medicine go along the lines of "It hasn't been proven/ it isn't scientifically based", and are similar to blindly following a religion, in that you reject it because the practices may conflict with your deeply ingrained beliefs about what is possible. However, many treatments, especially herbal, might just have biochemical basis that simply haven't been elucidated yet. Look at it metaphorically as taking an orange vs. taking a vitamin c pill. You would say the orange is the better option, yes? The benefit from the vitamin c is the same, but biologically the orange is better because there are multiple chemicals within the orange itself that allow for integration and amplification of their beneficial effects, and these interactions may be too complicated to ever prove through a specific pathway, other than to say "They work so we'd might as well use them". That is natural medicine at it's core. Ignore the BS like homeopathy.
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(sigh)... I didn't mean here in this thread.

I'm sure there'll be some interesting responses to this in the morning when I wake up.
 
To be honest, part of the reason people detect a "hive" mentality is because it's tiring to constantly argue with people. When someone disagrees with the prevailing wisdom of a particular thread, they have to assess whether it is worth the time and effort to not only type up a response, but then stay and defend it against all the counter perspectives. It can be done by the motivated individual, but after a few threads of it you just let it go after the first couple rallies. After being on the site for...nearly 8 years now, the trajectory of these arguments is pretty predictable. At some point you pick your battles and hope that others who share your perspective will join in so that a proper case can be made for whatever it is you're suggesting/advocating.

Thankfully most things on this site I agree with, or there is sufficient basis for debate that enough countering views are always represented. One topic that I find a bit of a "tunnel" on is loans and choosing schools. The vast majority of SDN will advocate for the cheapest school above all else, and I think that is actually not always warranted. However, I think the scenarios in which it is appropriate to take a large amount of debt are few and thus if the hive is to err on some extreme, I'm glad that it's toward frugality. However, some nuance to this discussion is sorely missing and typically drowned out through attacks on age, intelligence, or naiveté.

At the end of the day it's still the internet so you just have to adjust your expectations accordingly and always use your own brain. None of us can dictate your life for you, nor should you let us even if we could (and I assure you some on this forum would certainly enjoy trying).
 
darkjedi said:
wait whats the disagreement about this
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Med students don't know everything, especially if they're some K-MD with minimal life experience outside of school, etc. etc.
 
RogueUnicorn said:
Med student automatically > Premed
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And don't forget resident automatically > medical student.

Although I've found that the residents aren't nearly as obnoxious about that as the medical students can be to the premeds. I think the worst part about that whole problem is when a premed is genuinely wrong and repeatedly given good advice by medical students, we have to hear "YOU JUST THINK I'M WRONG CUZ I'M A PREMED" thanks to other posters that have used the med student>premed argument to shut down discussion in the past without explaining their reasoning.
 
cs24 said:
And don't forget resident automatically > medical student.

Although I've found that the residents aren't nearly as obnoxious about that as the medical students can be to the premeds. I think the worst part about that whole problem is when a premed is genuinely wrong and repeatedly given good advice by medical students, we have to hear "YOU JUST THINK I'M WRONG CUZ I'M A PREMED" thanks to other posters that have used the med student>premed argument to shut down discussion in the past without explaining their reasoning.
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I won't call anyone out, but I have even seen this numerous times between med students on the allo forums. "You are just a second year..." Sheesh you guys can be harsh to each other sometimes.
 
Doctor Bob said:
Waaaay more time than I should have spent.
I was looking for one that used to be available, but it's not there anymore.



Word to your mother
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Are you aware that there are people in this world that have a severe medical condition which causes them to be that way? My mother for instance is one of those people. She is a truck driver that has bad knees and a bad back from driving the truck but you probably do not care about that case either. Oh well I am not one of those people I am 6'4" 245lbs and I exercise every day. I would love to see you say something like to my mother in front of me. Probably never happen though you are probably just an internet tough guy. I doubt very seriously you would say that to someones face. Just my thought.What do you think. Oh I am sorry you probably do not have a brain. I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know.
 
Make Or Break said:
I on the other hand will be happy to buy you a plane ticket to come here and see if you have the nerve to say that to someone I know.
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Sweet. I'd love a free plane ticket. PM me the info.

17150500.jpg
 
Doctor Bob said:
Sweet. I'd love a free plane ticket. PM me the info.

17150500.jpg
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When I meant "buy you a plane ticket" I meant you PM me your bank info/credit card (doesn't matter which one) and I'll buy one for you with your money.
 
Cyndaquil MD said:
...I don't even know what you're talking about anymore. Nice to see you try and back-peddle though, after practicing physicians and residents chimed in against you.

Honestly, I tried looking through your thread but it was very hard to take seriously since it pretty much just turned into a "THANKS OBAMA" circlejerk.
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Its a simple case of cognitive dissonance. I don't hate Obamacare, I just really think it is about the worst way we could have gone about reform. It's a minor net positive that should have been a great positive, and I find it infuriating how poorly the law was crafted. It's the legal equivalent of redirecting a train that was on a track about to kill 100 people to a different track that kills 98- it's an overall net positive but still is ultimately just killing a while bunch of different people.
 
Narmerguy said:
To be honest, part of the reason people detect a "hive" mentality is because it's tiring to constantly argue with people. When someone disagrees with the prevailing wisdom of a particular thread, they have to assess whether it is worth the time and effort to not only type up a response, but then stay and defend it against all the counter perspectives. It can be done by the motivated individual, but after a few threads of it you just let it go after the first couple rallies. After being on the site for...nearly 8 years now, the trajectory of these arguments is pretty predictable. At some point you pick your battles and hope that others who share your perspective will join in so that a proper case can be made for whatever it is you're suggesting/advocating.
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Sometimes I find myself looking at a thread and hoping, waiting that someone will take up the good cause because I'm way too tired to do it yet again.


. One topic that I find a bit of a "tunnel" on is loans and choosing schools. The vast majority of SDN will advocate for the cheapest school above all else, and I think that is actually not always warranted. However, I think the scenarios in which it is appropriate to take a large amount of debt are few and thus if the hive is to err on some extreme, I'm glad that it's toward frugality. However, some nuance to this discussion is sorely missing and typically drowned out through attacks on age, intelligence, or naiveté.
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Agreed and that topic in particular tends to be a blind-leading-the-blind phenomenon (i.e. students advising other students). The funny thing is that when someone a bit older (e.g. attending) chimes in with a more nuanced argument they often get shouted down for not understanding what the kids these days are going through.

I do think that the default position of frugality is the lesser of two evils, but there are times when it gets ridiculous (e.g. posters advocating a third tier school over a top tier one for like 20K a year difference)
 
When my 12 year tells me "you wouldn't understand" I KNOW that he doesn't understand either!

Agreed and that topic in particular tends to be a blind-leading-the-blind phenomenon (i.e. students advising other students). The funny thing is that when someone a bit older (e.g. attending) chimes in with a more nuanced argument they often get shouted down for not understanding what the kids these days are going through.
 
The notion that state schools are huge jokes academically, and that it's just easy to do well in classes at these schools. It's oftentimes a case where there is no curve at all, no matter how poorly people did on an exam. I go to a really low-ranked undergrad (had other options but couldn't afford them and had family issues) and we had no curve in General Chemistry or OChem. Plenty of people failed these classes too, whereas there are a lot of reports of grade inflation at top-tier schools. I'm not disputing that some top-tiers have a ton of competition in the pre-reqs (e.g. WashU), but I just don't agree with the conception a lot of people on here have of lower-ranked schools. Most professors in the STEM department at my university are intelligent and experienced enough to know that if they give students a false impression of their abilities, it will only do them a disservice.
 
Narmerguy said:
Thankfully most things on this site I agree with, or there is sufficient basis for debate that enough countering views are always represented. One topic that I find a bit of a "tunnel" on is loans and choosing schools. The vast majority of SDN will advocate for the cheapest school above all else, and I think that is actually not always warranted. However, I think the scenarios in which it is appropriate to take a large amount of debt are few and thus if the hive is to err on some extreme, I'm glad that it's toward frugality. However, some nuance to this discussion is sorely missing and typically drowned out through attacks on age, intelligence, or naiveté.
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I think people tend to forget that choosing a med school is a very personal decision. Expectations, goals, and preferences will vary from applicant to applicant.
 
jb94mg said:
The notion that state schools are huge jokes academically, and that it's just easy to do well in classes at these schools. It's oftentimes a case where there is no curve at all, no matter how poorly people did on an exam. I go to a really low-ranked undergrad (had other options but couldn't afford them and had family issues) and we had no curve in General Chemistry or OChem. Plenty of people failed these classes too, whereas there are a lot of reports of grade inflation at top-tier schools. I'm not disputing that some top-tiers have a ton of competition in the pre-reqs (e.g. WashU), but I just don't agree with the conception a lot of people on here have of lower-ranked schools. Most professors in the STEM department at my university are intelligent and experienced enough to know that if they give students a false impression of their abilities, it will only do them a disservice.
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Likewise, the stories of rampant grade inflation at top schools is also overstated. Good luck getting a curve in the gen chem classes at these places. Few people even take them because students typically accelerate out. Few people fail not because As are given out like candy, but because they just do very well.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Sometimes I find myself looking at a thread and hoping, waiting that someone will take up the good cause because I'm way too tired to do it yet again.




Agreed and that topic in particular tends to be a blind-leading-the-blind phenomenon (i.e. students advising other students). The funny thing is that when someone a bit older (e.g. attending) chimes in with a more nuanced argument they often get shouted down for not understanding what the kids these days are going through.

I do think that the default position of frugality is the lesser of two evils, but there are times when it gets ridiculous (e.g. posters advocating a third tier school over a top tier one for like 20K a year difference)
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I thought I was the only one to do that. I sometimes wait and get excited when I see a certain group of posters have already made it to the thread. Then I just like their posts and move on. Although, I've started just quoting myself from prior threads. Write a long post once and then copy/paste it. Dorky, but surprisingly (well, not really) effective.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
I mentioned that I wish there was a way to make a "file" so to speak where you could easily save and then look-up your own past posts. I find myself thinking a lot of the time that I know I answered this question in 2011 or so...but using the search function it can still take a while to track it down.
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I have a bookmark folder of my 'longer' posts. Then label them "MD vs. DO", "URM", "Clinical volunteering", "Match lists" etc. Like I said... dorky...
 
I guess one point of contention for me would be the very common suggestion that one should travel during gap years. I don't really know anything about travel costs, but I get the impression in talking to people irl that ain't no body go the money for that.

I'd be super happy to go out West or visit Deutschland during my gap period, however.
 
SouthernSurgeon said:
Agreed and that topic in particular tends to be a blind-leading-the-blind phenomenon (i.e. students advising other students). The funny thing is that when someone a bit older (e.g. attending) chimes in with a more nuanced argument they often get shouted down for not understanding what the kids these days are going through.

I do think that the default position of frugality is the lesser of two evils, but there are times when it gets ridiculous (e.g. posters advocating a third tier school over a top tier one for like 20K a year difference)
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Only a small fraction of people can afford to care about prestige. They will be adamant about their beliefs and try to impose on everyone else. I don't blame them, but it's silly sometimes.
 
J Senpai said:
I guess one point of contention for me would be the very common suggestion that one should travel during gap years. I don't really know anything about travel costs, but I get the impression in talking to people irl that ain't no body go the money for that.
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But it's "worth it." 🙄
 
J Senpai said:
I guess one point of contention for me would be the very common suggestion that one should travel during gap years. I don't really know anything about travel costs, but I get the impression in talking to people irl that ain't no body go the money for that.

I'd be super happy to go out West or visit Deutschland during my gap period, however.
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I was one of those "I'm gonna travel all the time!!!!" people. Interviews aside, I haven't left anywhere... Research assistants don't live the lucrative life I once thought they did...
 
The constant boot-licking of the adcoms on here. The other day I saw a regular user and an adcom post similar advice (literally almost verbatim) back to back, and the adcom got 6 likes and the previous poster got 1 or 2.
 
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