what kind of kids were you?

[78222]

largely agree. and i never discourage anyone; well, kids anyway. i'm a big fan of keeping their eyes wide open for as long as possible.

but there's a difference between wanting something, and being willing to work for it. these kids may want to do medicine, but may not have the drive. so what is the thing that'll kick em in the ass and get to it.

my theory - if theyve been getting 2.0's consistently, disappointments aren't anything new, and a disappointment in not getting what they want is just part of the cycle. not for everyone, but a very substantial percentage, IMO. how would you break that cycle?

if you were a parent, whose kid wanted to be a doctor, but didnt cut the grades needed, he's in adolescence during that golden time of "personality formation" and you're noticing habits of laziness that continue well into his senior year of high school. what do you do so he turns it around in college and realizes that he really can go for the dream if he changes every thing about himself that he's lived as for the past 6 years?

that's a HUGE change which is why i think its quite rare. how do you make it less rare?

Well, what I usually tell people, even people who are applying to medschool now, is that if they are going to make it, they really have to want it and being willing to make sacrifices for it. I make sure early premeds know that if they want this, then they will have to make good grades - if they can do that while still being slackers - fine, but most people can't and I don't think ANYONE can really be a slacker in medschool because you have to memorize and regurgitate such a large amount of information. If they want it, they will do it - if they want it but also want to be Van Wilder, they'll probably have to choose one or the other.

As for the last part. I think for me, part of my laziness was derived from the fact that a) I didn't think crappy grads would really affect my ability to get into a decent school (and they didn't because of a high ACT score which despite a 2.0 GPA, landed me a scholarship) and b) realizing that highschool, at least my crappy HS, was busy work and not at all intellectual nor important. Of course, I was an incredibly cocky, arrogant teenager who was absolutely positive that I was smarter than everyone else. I also went into college with enough self assurance that I believed I could do well in any subject if I wanted to.

Ironically, after teaching HS overseas in my year off before medschool I realized what a jackass kid I was in HS and would get really pissed at the smart kids who, like me, wouldn't apply themselves. I hope karma doesn't come back on me by giving me a child who is as stupid and cocky as I was.

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[78222]

largely agree. and i never discourage anyone; well, kids anyway. i'm a big fan of keeping their eyes wide open for as long as possible.

but there's a difference between wanting something, and being willing to work for it. these kids may want to do medicine, but may not have the drive. so what is the thing that'll kick em in the ass and get to it.

my theory - if theyve been getting 2.0's consistently, disappointments aren't anything new, and a disappointment in not getting what they want is just part of the cycle. not for everyone, but a very substantial percentage, IMO. how would you break that cycle?

if you were a parent, whose kid wanted to be a doctor, but didnt cut the grades needed, he's in adolescence during that golden time of "personality formation" and you're noticing habits of laziness that continue well into his senior year of high school. what do you do so he turns it around in college and realizes that he really can go for the dream if he changes every thing about himself that he's lived as for the past 6 years?

that's a HUGE change which is why i think its quite rare. how do you make it less rare?

Well, what I usually tell people, even people who are applying to medschool now, is that if they are going to make it, they really have to want it and being willing to make sacrifices for it. I make sure early premeds know that if they want this, then they will have to make good grades - if they can do that while still being slackers - fine, but most people can't and I don't think ANYONE can really be a slacker in medschool because you have to memorize and regurgitate such a large amount of information. If they want it, they will do it - if they want it but also want to be Van Wilder, they'll probably have to choose one or the other.

As for the last part. I think for me, part of my laziness was derived from the fact that a) I didn't think crappy grads would really affect my ability to get into a decent school (and they didn't because of a high ACT score which despite a 2.0 GPA, landed me a scholarship) and b) realizing that highschool, at least my crappy HS, was busy work and not at all intellectual nor important. Of course, I was an incredibly cocky, arrogant teenager who was absolutely positive that I was smarter than everyone else. I also went into college with enough self assurance that I believed I could do well in any subject if I wanted to.

Ironically, after teaching HS overseas in my year off before medschool I realized what a jackass kid I was in HS and would get really pissed at the smart kids who, like me, wouldn't apply themselves. I hope karma doesn't come back on me by giving me a child who is as stupid and cocky as I was.

 

[QuikClot]

Guess what the most athletic kid in my graduating class is doing (7 years out of high school)? He is an EMT, lol.

Lot of happy EMTs in the world, including me at one time. You seem to be not quite over being the picked-on runt (I was that, too). As long as you're carrying resentment in your heart for these people, they own a part of your soul. 100k won't change that.

The real winner of the rat race is the one that's not still thinking about who they were in high school.

 

[jbrice1639]

oftentimes a relative will bring their kid to me and ask me if they think their kid has a shot at medical school. it got me thinking, what kind of kids were all you guys?

i'm talking generally in the 7th-11th grade type. hardworking? joker who did well? hard worker who didnt mind letting a few B's slip? class comedian?

i have a theory that in order to make it this far, hard work cant be something your just willing to put up with, but rather an embedded part of your personality, so my proposed theory is that everyone on this forum was quite successful as a high school/junior high schooler. the college turn-around is a rare exception.

i'm not saying that high school *****s shouldnt go for their dreams. hell, there are always exceptions, so why not you? but when that kid with the 850 SAT 2.0 high school GPA in idiot classes asks me if he can one day be a doctor, i find myself really thinking...can he turn it around? you can't just motivate them, you really need someone on their ass constantly until hard work and success become a part of who they are.

what do you guys think, what are your experiences?

definitely goofed off but did well. high school was mainly a hoop to jump through on the way to college in my opinion. and i definitely don't think you can determine whether someone will be successful or not based on their attitude in high school. people mature a lot after their teenage years, so being a screw-up then doesn't necessarily impact the future

 

[public5656]

Lot of happy EMTs in the world, including me at one time. You seem to be not quite over being the picked-on runt (I was that, too). As long as you're carrying resentment in your heart for these people, they own a part of your soul. 100k won't change that.

The real winner of the rat race is the one that's not still thinking about who they were in high school.

I do have some things on my chest that I would like to say to a few people from back in those days. But I'm mature now and have moved on with life.

I didn't mean to diss EMT's. I was dissing the fact that all he has become so far is an EMT when he was voted to be the most famous person in the graduating class. If he is happy being an EMT, then that is good.

The old saying goes, the students who have the highest GPA's end up being teachers and people who make the C grades end up the bosses of the B students. For how my life has turned out, I will be a CEO of my private company meanie: )

 

[Skelfie]

the college turn-around is a rare exception.

i'm not saying that high school *****s shouldnt go for their dreams. hell, there are always exceptions, so why not you? but when that kid with the 850 SAT 2.0 high school GPA in idiot classes asks me if he can one day be a doctor, i find myself really thinking...can he turn it around? you can't just motivate them, you really need someone on their ass constantly until hard work and success become a part of who they are.

Interesting theory. But, I think there are too many variables. You would consider me a "high school *****," I'm sure. I was one of those kids who didn't care about high school at all and considered it all to be a joke. Our district had a policy of automatically failing anyone who missed more than a certain number of days and that's the only reason I was physically present at my school.

I spent my days there following my own educational path -- reading copiously and writing fiction during the "lectures", taking art classes, hanging out with the folks who were in bands (I lived near Los Angeles so most of my week- and weekend-nights were spent at small shows and concerts). If, on a rare occasion, I found a subject interesting in school (like AP Bio, strangely enough) I would pay attention and get an A, but other than that I was content to coast by with B's and C's. When I finally got to college my previous suspicion that high school had been an utter waste of my time was confirmed -- I think my later adolescent years wouldn't have been so unfocused if I'd been able to go straight to college from junior high.

Anyway, I went on to get a PhD (I did my pre-med classes during my final dissertation years) and I'm now accepted to my first choice med school [[not to gloat!! I'm only mentioning it to support my point ]] -- and I did all that without someone being "on my ass constantly". I simply found something that I was interested in, in an environment which actually stimulated rather than stifled me.

 

[Scoot]

You know, I wish I had known people like Quiklot and Skelfie when I was trying to come back to school and make it in the academic world. The only people that I knew of that did well in school were the types that got all their motivation from outside (i.e. their parents) and, I feel, had no idea why they did anything. It sure made my life hard at times, trying to follow my own interests, not knowing that there were other people that had "success" while shunning the "ladder climbing mentality" that I felt like everyone else exhibited. It wasn't until my later college years that I met some people like me.

A very large part of the problem is the HS teachers and counselors that tell you "you will never amount to anything if you don't make good grades" -- It was probably true for them because many people aren't capable of recognizing what things are actually important and so just run full-speed at everything, having no idea why they are doing it. You actually believe that after a while and begin to count yourself out, if you’re not careful.

I just think it is actually detrimental to some people to have people in your face all the time telling you to work hard because "I said so," and it seems like the original purpose of this thread was to affirm that this mentality is the only way to "make it"---well for anyone reading this who actually believes this and subsequently counts themselves out: Screw That. Most of the people that actually make decisions about who gets into schools have experience with the type of people that don't believe everything they are told and recognize the value that there is in having them be a part of the game.

 

[public5656]

You know, I wish I had known people like Quiklot and Skelfie when I was trying to come back to school and make it in the academic world. The only people that I knew of that did well in school were the types that got all their motivation from outside (i.e. their parents) and, I feel, had no idea why they did anything. It sure made my life hard at times, trying to follow my own interests, not knowing that there were other people that had "success" while shunning the "ladder climbing mentality" that I felt like everyone else exhibited. It wasn't until my later college years that I met some people like me.

A very large part of the problem is the HS teachers and counselors that tell you "you will never amount to anything if you don't make good grades" -- It was probably true for them because many people aren't capable of recognizing what things are actually important and so just run full-speed at everything, having no idea why they are doing it. You actually believe that after a while and begin to count yourself out, if you’re not careful.

I just think it is actually detrimental to some people to have people in your face all the time telling you to work hard because "I said so," and it seems like the original purpose of this thread was to affirm that this mentality is the only way to "make it"---well for anyone reading this who actually believes this and subsequently counts themselves out: Screw That. Most of the people that actually make decisions about who gets into schools have experience with the type of people that don't believe everything they are told and recognize the value that there is in having them be a part of the game.

You hit it on the head. I was told many times by teachers and counselors that I was worthless and wouldn't become anything in this world except a factory worker. Well, guess what happened? I found something I'm passionate about. I didn't need anyone to kick me in the but to work hard (I grew up on a farm, thank you very much!), didn't need anyone to tell me to study for an exam, didn't need anyone to tell me to do homework, I just needed to find something that I actually CARED ABOUT.

Even when I took a history and English class in college I didn't give a crap about those subjects. I still got a B and an A in my three English classes and Got a B- in my history class, but they were so fricking boring I had a tough time reading the book (I just skimmed over the chapters to do assignments and exams...I never once read a page word by word for those classes).

When it came to the organic, botany, embryology, (not general chemistry..god I hated that class), heredity, and genetics courses, I would always be asking questions every lecture. For instance, one day in general biology we were talking about the use of non-viral gene therapy. I would ask questions about the benefit of the non-viral over the viral and how much better the non-viral is for expressing genes (are the genes expressed longer or shorter then the viral). In embryology I wanted minute information about how a disorder developed. Because of my questions in embryology, the professor changed his syllabus because of the questions I had. He added 3 different lectures to explain to me how certain disorders developed (we had a class of 5 people). There is only one other person in my embryology class that actually cared about the subject.

If you were to look on my transcript, you will see that my highest grades are in biology courses…heredity, genetics, embryology, independent study, service learning, research, anatomy, etc. (got a C in both organic and general chemistry though). I never took a biology course in high school.

I have grades that range from A to D for the rest of my classes.

 

[Bubb Rubb]

i always had the benefit of things coming easily so was always at the top of the class without stressing out about it, but i would keep on working hard and tackle new things, whether sports, music, math, computers, science... social skills even.

/me has social skills, really! despite the time stamp on this post. i'm on call tomorrow, poor me...

 

[45408]

I was a really nerdy kid all along, pretty much. Had nice dorky glasses from 4-9th grade. I always loved to read about cool or scientific stuff - astronomy, animals, big machines, etc. I still watch Modern Marvels and Mythbusters all the time. As for academic performance, I let a few things slide in high school - I had a few C's and one D even (although that was cuz the teacher was being a prick about not taking a late assignment), but I still graduated with like a 3.8. I think my grades dipped when I landed a girlfriend It was good exchange though - I ended up marrying her. I didn't do much in the way of ECs, and my ACT wasn't amazing. I definitely kicked it up a notch in college.

 

[45408]

My career choice would probably be a surprise to everyone (including my parents who don't know I'm in med school), and I agree with Bagel that getting accepted where I am wasn't that big of a deal. When you are sitting on a 30-33 MCAT, you typically are confined to your state school system; and in my region a 30 is nearly a sure thing unless you get a sudden case of Kluver-Bucy during the interview.

what do your parents think you're doing?

While I don't think anyone needs a big head over it, you guys are selling us short. Most people don't end up just "sitting on a 30-33 MCAT," because most people can't get that high.

 

[RokChalkJayhawk]

what do your parents think you're doing?

If you don't mind I'd like to know this as well

 

[NonTradMed]

From my experience, there is a correlation between high school achievements and med school admission. That is to say, people don't tend to have a huge change from high school to college.

And for those that do, if they do discover a purpose in their life, it's usually too late for them to do med school. There is a relatively small window of time when someone can goof off and then decide to straighten up and do med school. Most people have families and other obligations to worry about by the time they put their slacking off years behind them. As a nontrad, I actually saw a few people in my work place that finally realized what they wanted to do but couldn't go do it because they have spouses and kids to consider.

Unlike a job where a person who goofs off in high school can straighten up and perform on it, med school will require that person who have spent the last few years slacking off to focus on the prep work for med school and for many people, that may not be possible if they have families/jobs/other obligations.

I think people on these boards tend to be self selecting. We hear of a lot of exceptions but I just don't see that huge "I was a total slacker in high school but now I'm a PhD/MD candidate at Harvard" jump. It's possible but your chances of getting into med school decreases as you continue bad study habits as you climb up the educational ladder.

The kids at my med school disproportionately did well in high school, did well in college. There was one student who told us he had below a 3.0 in college becuase he choose to slack off throughout his early 20's but he spent the last 4-5 years going back to school while working to support a family to up his GPA for med school. His change did not happen within a couple of years, he said it took almost 5 years for him to get his act together. Is his story common? Even he doesn't think so. He knows he is an exception, and he has friends who were like him who have not come even close to what he has accomplished. Also, I think having a certain level of natural intelligence is very helpful. You can't be dumb AND lazy and get into med school.

I know many people on these boards like to share extraordinary stories that defied mainstream convention so we will hear of the GED-->MD experience but I really see that as the exception rather than the norm.

I remember kids who slacked off in high school who wanted to do this and that. They were told they needed to clean up. You know what some of their reply was? "I'll clean up in college. As long as I do well in college I'll be fine, high school doesn't matter". They were right about one thing, high school performance won't matter in the long run. However, what high school does is help you to acquire good study habits, focus and self-discipline which makes it possible to do well in college and beyond.

A kid who thinks they can get away with slacking off in high school b/c they'll be sure to do well in college is just fooling himself. Doing well has nothing to do with some magical transformation from high school to college, it has to do with internal drive to excel. And while I can see most kids who screw off in high school doing well 20 years down the life, I dont' think most will decide to turn around their academic lifestyle five years post-graduation and start a post-bacc to get into med school or some other competitive graduate project.

Given a premed's short lifespan (most stop being premed after 30), it's hard for me to see people who goof off in high school having this remarkably transformation in college that they make it into med shool. Does it happen? Sure. Is it common? Heck, no. The kids who are docs now in my old high school were all honors/AP students. Two of them were valedictorians at our high school. All were ranked in the top 5% of our school. Work hard in high school, work hard in college.

 

[Mr. Freeze]

While I think I understand that you are saying those kind of turnarounds are the exception, they do exist, and I think maybe more commonly than expected.

In the interest of disclosure, I graduated with the stellar GPA of 2.67. Maybe a little higher, because ironically I had quite a few honors tenths of points added. My college GPA was high enough I got into school without a BS. But I didn't start 'til I was 21, and paid my own way the whole time, sans a few tuition waivers.

I think it all depends on why you do poorly in HS. I personally was way too worried about non-academic EC's, like partying and girls. Plus, I knew I was joining the Marines, so why worry about things like chemistry I learned everything I needed to know about chemistry at lunch time...I didn't slack off because I thought I do well in college; I knew I wasn't going.

Well plans changed a little, went Army, and eventually had to learn way more about chemistry than I ever thought I would...not that I remember a great deal of it now...

If anyone is surprised I'm where I'm at now, they don't say it to my face. I'm not dumb; just had other **** to do when I was a kid. Some people can rebound, although you're probably right that many more can't...

 

[QuikClot]

I know many people on these boards like to share extraordinary stories that defied mainstream convention so we will hear of the GED-->MD experience but I really see that as the exception rather than the norm.

The problem with your argument is that you are discounting anecedote -- nothing wrong with that, per se -- but you are trumping it with something even less rigorous, your general impression of the way the world is or ought to be.

Study habits are not a hard thing to learn. "Work really hard until you know the material that's going to be on the test." It's not brain surgery. A low-ish GPA is not the immovable object it once was, either. Lots of people in med school weren't ideal students in high school, while others were. I don't see anything to suggest that a highly motivated person would have a particularly difficult time coming back from bad grades in high school. Grades are all about motivation, and motivation changes a lot in one's teens and twenties. It's all part of the process of growing up.

 

[NonTradMed]

The problem with your argument is that you are discounting anecedote -- nothing wrong with that, per se -- but you are trumping it with something even less rigorous, your general impression of the way the world is or ought to be.

Study habits are not a hard thing to learn. "Work really hard until you know the material that's going to be on the test." It's not brain surgery. A low-ish GPA is not the immovable object it once was, either. Lots of people in med school weren't ideal students in high school, while others were. I don't see anything to suggest that a highly motivated person would have a particularly difficult time coming back from bad grades in high school. Grades are all about motivation, and motivation changes a lot in one's teens and twenties. It's all part of the process of growing up.

I don't think good study habits are hard to learn but I believe that they are hard to acquire. My mother used to tell me (when I did something that she disapproved of) that it is always easy to pick up bad habits than it is to acquire good habits, because good habits tend to require effort.

The problem with low performing high school kids isn't that they lack the smarts or they screwed up their GPA to do med school, it's that they lack the motivation to clean up their act once they hit orientation day in college.

Now, some kids will clean up their act, but I think, if by the time you are 18 you have not, chances are, you won't be able to clean it up by the time you are 20. And as a premed, if you have been screwing around the first two years of your college career, it's much harder to get into med school even if you are a steller student the last two years. Being nontrad is also not easy in that you have to juggle things like work, maybe family and a mortgage. Hence, the best time to be a premed is really your college years, which means a turnaround time for most slackers is a couple of years. That's why I believe most slacker high school students will not find themselves into med school. It's not that they won't change, it's that the change may come too late for med school to happen.
I think most students, once they acquire mortgage, spouse and kid, will clean up their act, but it would take a highly motivated individual to then decide to fix their past academic failures and try for med school.

Btw, Doc Cottle rules!

 

[QuikClot]

The problem with low performing high school kids isn't that they lack the smarts or they screwed up their GPA to do med school, it's that they lack the motivation to clean up their act once they hit orientation day in college.

Now, some kids will clean up their act, but I think, if by the time you are 18 you have not, chances are, you won't be able to clean it up by the time you are 20.

The OP's scenerio involves parents asking about students 7th-11th grades (median age 15, not 18). He presumes they are motivated to become doctors, but lumps them into the category of "high school *****s." Based on the responses here, that theory, strictly construed, is myth busted. We all accept that the students can go into medicine if they are highly motivated to do so. Our disagreement, then, is over a relatively small point; how common or uncommon is it for people who did poorly in high school to become physicians? It'd be a good study, but at the moment, everyone is simply restating their opinions without offering any hard evidence.

Ultimately, if the question is whether or not to discourage the parents or discourage the child, I think the answer is clear; statistically people who are successful now in school are more likely to be successful later, but that's an association, not a necessary, causal relationship. So the best answer is still "Yes, they can become a doctor, provided it is something that they, and not just you, really want and are willing to work for it." It's the motivation of that particular student, and not how often, statistically, a person in their position is highly motivated, that determines their result.

 

[boulux]

i'm talking generally in the 7th-11th grade type. hardworking? joker who did well? hard worker who didnt mind letting a few B's slip? class comedian?

i have a theory that in order to make it this far, hard work cant be something your just willing to put up with, but rather an embedded part of your personality, so my proposed theory is that everyone on this forum was quite successful as a high school/junior high schooler. the college turn-around is a rare exception.

I'm not so sure that your theory is right... In fact, I would be the prime exemple of the opposite. First of all, I wasn't a "very" successful student before one year and a half ago. I always got decent-to-good grades in sciences courses, but I wasn't hard-working and I had a pretty bad attention deficit. Everyone knew I was smart, but the truth is, I was the most dissinterested student in the classroom. My first semester was apocalyptic because of that. I finished almost all of my course between 20% and 30% because I hated school and never finished the courses. That was back when I was studying administration. Then I went into sciences because it motivated me more and I was better at it. Then I got sick, really sick and for the first time of my life I thought about becoming a doctor. I started to work hard and since then I always get great grades (4.0/4.0 overall). Going through disease and working toward a goal that seemed unreachable has been something really motivating for me. At this point, I'm unstoppable. I went through major surgeries without quitting on my courses and still got perfect grades. I had the sky falling on me so many times and I still come back stronger every time.

So, what kind of person I was? A disinterested student, smart guy with a balanced life.

Now? I'm a balanced guy who went through more than I ever expected, and I'm working my butt off everyday.

 

[EBI831]

junior high: didn't do **** but then again you didn't need to to get good grades. got As in everything except advanced calculus/logic but again why the heck were they teaching 6th and 7th graders advanced calculus with no precal background? i decided it wasn't cool to study so i had to be forced by my parents to work hard
high school: went to private school, felt bad coming from public school so had chip on my shoulder that subsided once i realized most of my school was composed of *******es. worked about average, did all hw at school not at home etc. and got As then moved last 2 years to new city: didn't know anyone so i had more time for hw and worked hard as hell to graduate in top 10 of 500 ppl class and get national merit finalist.
college: i don't think i worked harder than most premeds at all, i think i work ed less than premeds but more than ppl of other majors. graduated w/ A- GPA with all of below A grades being in premed classes(physics and intro bio)...go figure. i didn't find it particularly hard, just tedious.

 

[JohnnyOU]

I was born a poor black child on the outskirts of Tulsa Oklahoma.
Got homeschooled the last year of highschool for telling the punk security guard at school I was gonna kick his buttocks for towing my car.

Failed homeschooling and had to go to night school when I was around 24.

And here I am!

 

[pcguy2]

I am a nature slacker. Never really tried that hard ever. In highschool I was top 5%. In unveresity I still didn't try and didn't do the best, but still got into med school and I only applied to 1 school.

Just comes to show, slackers always win in the end!

 

[45408]

Study habits are not a hard thing to learn. "Work really hard until you know the material that's going to be on the test." It's not brain surgery.

This is easy for someone to say who is either in or near med school. You guys are giving the average guy on the street too much credit. Of course nobody in the ALLOPATHIC FORUM thinks that high school was very hard or very important. I knew people in high school who tried hard but were always below-average students. I just don't believe that we are all equally talented, and that "anybody can do it" if they want to.

 

[Discobolus]

I didn't decide I wanted to be a doctor until my 5th year of college so I was never that kid who always wanted to be a doctor. I graduated just out of the top 10% of my high school class at a good public school (always makes those top public schools rank lists). I got about half A's and half B's without trying really hard, but I wouldn't say I was a slacker either. Never took any AP classes. Never took the SAT, but made a 30 on the ACT without any studying (which kind of pissed of some of my more studious classmates). Played football and was a State champion in my track and field event. I was pretty much the same through most of college, but buckled down a bit when I decided I wanted to go to medical school and my sports eligibility was over. Struggled with the first year of medical school due to total lack of study skills, but learned the ropes and did pretty well since then.

 

[sprinkibrio]

Your high school life was EXACTLY like mine in every sense... lol! The church friends and boyfriends in my town, the high school in another... My college life was totally different, though. I finally fit in so I had a ton of friends and was very partyish for awhile.

I hated high school, but I was good at it. I was valedictorian (though my class was small and school was easy). I don't remember ever taking homework home. I always got it done in study hall or class.
I had some social issues in high school and also grew up in a very conservative family. I stuck out and didn't really have a lot of friends or get invited out. I was always very studious and very self-motivated to do well in school and so thats pretty much all high school was for me. It was an easy education not a social thing, much to my own dissapointment. I really tried to fit in and form relationships in high school. I went out for most sports, was in band and choir, etc. It just didn't work for me. Finally I sort of gave up my senior year and actually ended up having more friends my senior year than other years.
I always had a string of boyfriends (from other schools, not mine) and was very good friends with a large group of people from my church, (again I went to church in a different town than my school) so I turned to them for my social needs.
College was pretty easy for me too. I definitely studied more but never found it difficult to be successful in college. (Other than physics and math ). I definitely had more friends in college but was still more studious than social.
Med school isn't exactly easy, but its not terrible either. I feel like I'm constantly studying, and am not honoring my courses, but then again, I think if I had as much time as many of my classmates (i.e. if I didn't have kids) I might perform better.
I don't know if there is any way of telling who can make it in med school vs who can not. We're all so different. Even within my class there is a huge difference in studying styles and motivation levels. Obviously a person has to be able to work hard enough and be successful enough to get in, but I'm pretty sure that some of my classmates struggled all the way into med school and will struggle all the way through, while studying constantly, then there are some of my classmates who are extremely intelligent that can goof off all the time and still pull the grades that will get them into med school.

 

[sprinkibrio]

.

 

[sprinkibrio]

They were right about one thing, high school performance won't matter in the long run. However, what high school does is help you to acquire good study habits, focus and self-discipline which makes it possible to do well in college and beyond.

I got great grades in high school, but I coasted (it was a bad school) so it taught me nothing about focus, self-discipline, or study habits... I suffered the first two years of college trying to figure those skills out, but rocked my second two years. I know other's who made B's and C's in their super fancy boarding high schools and then kicked my butt those first years of college because they had good school skills. This whole high school preformance predicts college preformance just depends on too many variables to be correct.

 

[Miami_med]

The OP's scenerio involves parents asking about students 7th-11th grades (median age 15, not 18). He presumes they are motivated to become doctors, but lumps them into the category of "high school *****s." Based on the responses here, that theory, strictly construed, is myth busted. We all accept that the students can go into medicine if they are highly motivated to do so. Our disagreement, then, is over a relatively small point; how common or uncommon is it for people who did poorly in high school to become physicians? It'd be a good study, but at the moment, everyone is simply restating their opinions without offering any hard evidence.

Ultimately, if the question is whether or not to discourage the parents or discourage the child, I think the answer is clear; statistically people who are successful now in school are more likely to be successful later, but that's an association, not a necessary, causal relationship. So the best answer is still "Yes, they can become a doctor, provided it is something that they, and not just you, really want and are willing to work for it." It's the motivation of that particular student, and not how often, statistically, a person in their position is highly motivated, that determines their result.

Wow,

I think we agree on something.

 

[Miami_med]

I didn't decide I wanted to be a doctor until my 5th year of college so I was never that kid who always wanted to be a doctor. I graduated just out of the top 10% of my high school class at a good public school (always makes those top public schools rank lists). I got about half A's and half B's without trying really hard, but I wouldn't say I was a slacker either. Never took any AP classes. Never took the SAT, but made a 30 on the ACT without any studying (which kind of pissed of some of my more studious classmates). Played football and was a State champion in my track and field event. I was pretty much the same through most of college, but buckled down a bit when I decided I wanted to go to medical school and my sports eligibility was over. Struggled with the first year of medical school due to total lack of study skills, but learned the ropes and did pretty well since then.

I took the SAT without studying. In fact, I think the idea of anyone studying for these tests in a relatively recent invention of the Kaplan generation. I never studied for a standardized test before the MCAT. Honestly, I think that everyone studying for these exams kind of screws up the point of what they are trying to show. Just my $.02

 

[baylormed]

I took the SAT without studying. In fact, I think the idea of anyone studying for these tests in a relatively recent invention of the Kaplan generation. I never studied for a standardized test before the MCAT. Honestly, I think that everyone studying for these exams kind of screws up the point of what they are trying to show. Just my $.02

I didn't study for my SATs, either. Partly because no one told me I had to take them until right before I had to take them (I was recently arrived in the country), and partly becuase it never occurred to me that I needed to.

I did just fine, and I laugh at the kids who went through all the stress with the studying and prep-courses and parental pressure. It's really not that hard.

 

[Katya00]

Junior high I skipped school a lot, smoked cigarettes, hung out with my friends doing other juvenile delinquent-type stuff. I always had fairly high grades without trying, I never did homework, and they almost failed me because I missed so many days (but my high grades saved me haha). I didn't think I'd ever go to college, ended up going through post-secondary options during high school.

I never liked Science or Math growing up; I excelled in English (perfect score on ACT) and Foreign language. I started to enjoy Biology in high school, and decided on some whim to major in it during college. I think a lot of it was because I wanted a challenge, and I found English classes to be simplistic and utterly worthless wastes of time (mostly boring discussion).

I always loved to read as a kid; I was very introspective and considered a dreamer and over-analyzer. When I was a kid I wanted to become a singer or a dancer, but I never had the chance to explore these options much.

I don't think I was a screw-up who saved herself at the last second, I was rebellious and got it (mostly) out of my system. I like to work hard and I have high expectations for myself...a lot of my old peers ended up on drugs, dropping out of school or as struggling single Moms, I just wanted a lot more than that for myself.

Of course, nobody would have ever guessed I would end up in medical school! I guess you can never predict Most of my teachers back then thought I was a loser, though there were a few who really liked me.

 

[Katya00]

I took the SAT without studying. In fact, I think the idea of anyone studying for these tests in a relatively recent invention of the Kaplan generation. I never studied for a standardized test before the MCAT. Honestly, I think that everyone studying for these exams kind of screws up the point of what they are trying to show. Just my $.02

Back then I viewed studying for standardized tests as a kind of "cheating", since I didn't feel it would really show my knowledge if I studied...kind of a strange attitude, but I was only 16!

I didn't study for the MCAT much either though, just 1 month of reviewing.

 

[ScubaEMT]

I lasted for about a year. I completely lost interest in what I was being taught and ended up traveling across the country via thumb (hitch-hiking) and rail (hopping freight trains). I think that I learned a great deal about myself and how the world actually works. In my opinion, this was a much better education than I would have gotten in high school. I took some time and worked as a cardiac tech and then an EMT for a few years, fell in love with medicine, and decided to go back to school. I got my GED (Good Enough Diploma.. hehe) and started taking a bunch of physical science courses at a community college. I did well and decided to continue on. A year and a half later, I still have my 4.0 and Im getting ready to transfer out to the university level.

From what I have been told by the docs I have worked with, intelligence, outstanding performance in college, life experience, and great scores on the MCAT are what get you in... Apparently dropping out of high school wasnt the massive black mark on my record that I was told it would be.

Dont get me wrong, I am sure that going through and doing well in high school would have had many benefits, but I do not think that I would be where I am today if I would have chosen that path.

 

[somemaybedoc]

oftentimes a relative will bring their kid to me and ask me if they think their kid has a shot at medical school. it got me thinking, what kind of kids were all you guys?

i'm talking generally in the 7th-11th grade type. hardworking? joker who did well? hard worker who didnt mind letting a few B's slip? class comedian?

i have a theory that in order to make it this far, hard work cant be something your just willing to put up with, but rather an embedded part of your personality, so my proposed theory is that everyone on this forum was quite successful as a high school/junior high schooler. the college turn-around is a rare exception.

i'm not saying that high school *****s shouldnt go for their dreams. hell, there are always exceptions, so why not you? but when that kid with the 850 SAT 2.0 high school GPA in idiot classes asks me if he can one day be a doctor, i find myself really thinking...can he turn it around? you can't just motivate them, you really need someone on their ass constantly until hard work and success become a part of who they are.

what do you guys think, what are your experiences?

I was pretty mediocre as far as high school grades are concerned. The whole thing was a bore most of the time. Lots of basic material, lots of stupid ass kiss questions from Harvard dreaming students, lots of easy, but time consuming pointless busy homework. There were plenty of arbitrary, ill thought out, and impractical rules and restrictions. The tests were easy enough, but the homework counted for a lot more than I thought it ought to, since it doesn't measure what you learned, but rather how slavishly you followed instructions (I've since learned that slavishly following instructions is occasionally unnecessary). It was a pretty good private school though, 100% went to college so I can't imagine how bored I would have been elsewhere.


The SAT was no problem though.

College had substance, the material was interesting, the homework (if any) actually had some value in stimulating thought, and I knew it actually mattered.

That was what was different and I doubt I am all that alone in my experience.

 

[directdoc]

Interesting question...and interesting responses.

I always worked my butt off. I was the student that all the teachers knew...made all A's...NHS and all that crap.

I disagree with the statement that all dreams come true...because if you're in college and you have a 2.8 GPA...you're not going to become a doctor. There's no way around that one.

 

[musiclink213]

I was the band geek. In JHS, I worked in the band room before school and after school, every free chance, I was in the band room. IN high school, I was in my schools music program, so I was taking about 3 music classes each cycle, and I was in the orchestra for the musicals. About a week or 2 before teh show, we would be in rehearsal until 10 pm. A couple of times, I ended up falling asleep with my textbooks beside me on the bed, and my mom wouldn't have the heart to make me go to school the next morning, so I skipped some days out of sheer exhaustion.

But I always got good grades, didn't really have to study for much until I got into my junior and senior year of high school. Everybody though I was going to be a lawyer because when I started high school, I wrote a contract with my dad that for every report card I got all E's on (we got graded E, G, S, U, N) I would get $50. We got 8 report cards a year, 4 cycles and also every half cycle we got a report card. I made quite a bit of money. He actually signed it and everything.

 

[EM_Rebuilder]

I was a total loaner. Few friends. Mainly worked with the family business in the evenings/weekends. I enjoyed it and that satisfied me. I always tell people that if I were in HS today, I would have probably been singled out as the next bomber or mass assualt person....

Certainly am a totally different person nowadays. Not sure what did it, but it was for the better...

 

[PeepshowJohnny]

High School: I destroyed classmates with minimal effort. I went to a very small high school and the other "smart kids" in my class I competed with in junior high either moved away or become slackers so I was king of the hill by default. I was the kind of teacher's hated: I'd goof off in class juuuust enough where they couldn't punish me and I'd wind up with an A. One of my favorite report cards/progress reports I got had an A+ in a math class with the comments: "Disruptive" and "Behavior inhibits learning" written write next to it. My senior English class final (which accounted for 30% of my grade) was a series of essay questions. I answered them all in haikus or limericks. I still ended up with the highest cummulative grade in the class.

In College though, I turned it around. I came in with a huge chip on my shoulder, coming in from the "sticks" to compete with people from the affluent suburbs who came in with mountains of AP credit (unheard of at my school). I worked my ass off all through college, always taking harder versions of classes than required, and ALWAYS kept my grades immaculate. It definitely helped when applying to med school.

-------

To succeed in Med school you've got to have three things in my estimation that I think you can estimate from a high school kid. Natural mental ability, a work ethic, and a good personality.

I've never seen anyone make it if they're deficient in one of those. I know a girl who wanted to go into a field about as competitive as medicine. She worked super hard, she was nice enough, but she didn't have the brain for it. She'd study for hours, everyone liked her, but she just couldn't wrap her mind around concepts and ended up burning out when she got to the point where no matter how hard she worked she couldn't succeed.

Without the work ethic, you're like Mycroft Holmes, Sherlock Holme's smarter, but infinitely lazier brother. You may be such a genius you never hard to study and everyone likes you, but if you don't have the work ethic you'll flame out. Tomorrow is my 10th day in the hospital with no break. No matter how smart you are, you can't outthink your way out of elbowgreese.

Without personality: obvious. The prototypical 44 MCAT 4.0 GPA from MIT who won't look his interviewer in the eye or answer any of his questions. Myself, even though I'm a huge geek, I've always been a decently popular, congenial one. It doesn't matter if you're Big Man on Campus or the Class Clown or Miss Super Empathic, as long as you can connect and converse with people, you're okay.

 

[dnr]

oftentimes a relative will bring their kid to me and ask me if they think their kid has a shot at medical school. it got me thinking, what kind of kids were all you guys?

i'm talking generally in the 7th-11th grade type. hardworking? joker who did well? hard worker who didnt mind letting a few B's slip? class comedian?

i have a theory that in order to make it this far, hard work cant be something your just willing to put up with, but rather an embedded part of your personality, so my proposed theory is that everyone on this forum was quite successful as a high school/junior high schooler. the college turn-around is a rare exception.

i'm not saying that high school *****s shouldnt go for their dreams. hell, there are always exceptions, so why not you? but when that kid with the 850 SAT 2.0 high school GPA in idiot classes asks me if he can one day be a doctor, i find myself really thinking...can he turn it around? you can't just motivate them, you really need someone on their ass constantly until hard work and success become a part of who they are.

what do you guys think, what are your experiences?

For me, grades have always been directly proportional to my interest. I was held back in KINDERGARTEN because I didn't want to do the activities (I was developing "much slower than the others"). I was nearly held back in 4th grade because I did so poorly in school...but I could beat Mario Brothers 1 with only one life (from start to finish)! In high school, my parents started nagging me to study for school. My grades got better and better, but they were never stellar (I'd say high 80's). In College, I decided to study the piano (certainly not as competitive as the pre-med pathway, but still pretty damn difficult). Since I was passionate about the field, I started to bust my A$$. I had a 4.0 the whole time (granted, I'm a crappy musician...but I did well academically). In my junior year, I switched to pre-med. My ambition went through the roof, and I thrived there as well (various science awards, 4.0s, etc...). I graduated at the top of my class in both fields (college-turn around?).

I am not brilliant by any means. For me, it is just a question of motivation.

back to your question: is hard-work embedded in my personality? I guess so...but it was not always channeled into school (i.e. Nintendo was more of a priority in middle school).

My father, an FP says that "anyone with average intelligence can be a doctor..." Both he, and myself, prove this point. Whether anyone with average intelligence can be a neurosurgeon...that's another story.

I think the question isn't "can these kids get into med school?" But "do they WANT to get into med school?"

 

[Medica2010]

Just based on the wide variety of responses you are getting here, I guess it is hard to determine whether someone is made for med school when they are young...

here's me:

In middle school, i was a real geeky type, and I hung out with all the other geeky types. I was considered one of the smart kids. I got good grades and had a lot of extra curriculars, and my dream was to go to Princeton.

When I got to highschool the work got harder, and I wasn't the smartest kid around anymore, I slowed my pace down. I still graduated the top 30 people in a class of over 600 (public), but my Princeton dreams were behind me, and I went to a great, little libral arts college. Oh, and I was actually kinda cool in high school, so that was a plus...

Then all of a sudden I was hot again. I started out in the top of my major and stayed there until I graduated. And I was super involved and made a bunch of friends. Now: med school

So the moral is... When I was in 8th grade, I was a dorky little girl with barely any social skills, and I would have taken one look at myself and said "No way, she can't interact with people!" Now it is another story. Everyone comes into their own at a different time.

 

[noonday]

because if you're in college and you have a 2.8 GPA...you're not going to become a doctor. There's no way around that one.

huh. so i guess i didn't get in to and spend the last year in med school then? me and my 2.8 undergrad gpa...must have hallucinated it all.

 

[whoisthedrizzle]

pothead

i was the kid who had the grades for nhs, but wasn't let in due to "character issues"

 

[gujuDoc]

I was painfully shy, to the point of having no friends for years at a time. I wasn't a loner by choice though... I really wanted friends, but I didn't know how to go about breaking into cliques and talking to people I didn't know. Lesson to y'all: be nice to the quiet kids! They might truly appreciate it, and you might end up with a good new friend!

Anyway, I always loved biology best out of all my classes, but I didn't know what I wanted to do with it. Straight A's through middle school and high school, with 9 APs and a bunch of honors classes. I was always good at tests (but I always felt that SATs and AP tests were more about test-taking skills than an honest evaluation of knowledge). I finally forced myself out of my shell in college, made some friends, but still managed good grades. I finally decided on med school my junior year of college, so I definitely don't think you need to have a "calling" from birth to be a doctor. Explore the possibilities, and do what feels right.

Ok granted I'm just starting grad school and not med school yet, I find this thread interesting.

When I was in middle school, I had zero friends. I was an outcast because I was not pretty, I had health issues due to allergies and epilepsy. I was finally taken off the epilepsy medications that caused such bad side effects when I was 15 and had my last seizure in 2nd grade. But the years of being on such medications had some bad side effects and people were cruel and didn't understand so I always sat alone and did what I needed to do but didn't interact much in middle school with others because while I wanted friends everyone in the class decided to start making up rumors on me til every single person turned on me. That was the age when people just were in it for a popularity contest and constant fads were the big thing. I went to a middle school which had 98% of the people as rich white caucasians. There were maybe 10 black people in the whole school of 700+ kids, 5 Indians, 5 latinos, and less then 5 Asians of non Indian origin. Many were of wealthier backgrounds except for a small minority of people.

In highschool, a lot of those same people who went on to go to my highschool changed a lot and matured way more and I started talking to many of them. The other half of them ended up going to the new highschool that was closer to our middle school. My highschool was one of a diverse background with many many African americans, Latinos, and other ethnic groups. We had everything from Koreans and Vietnamese people to Indians and Chinese folks as well as all sorts of islanders such as people from Jamaica, Haiti, the Bahamas, and so forth.

This more diverse background of my highschool made it a more pleasant experience. Furthermore, not everyone was of the upper class so it felt more integrated. Though there were still cliques people were more friendly and more pleasant to be around. In highschool I made an attempt to take more honors classes then i did in middle school and push myself further. I also took more interest in getting involved by doing all sorts of community service projects and got to know people more.

In college, I carried a lot of the lessons from highschool over in terms of getting active and talking to people more once I broke out of my shell. I had a lot more good times in highschool and college then middle school. I struggled due to some personal reasons in college which led to my need to do postbac and a masters but I learned from my mistakes.

I didn't struggle much with highschool courses for the most part because many of them were not so super challenging unless you were in IB courses. I however did not even know about the IB program when I was getting ready to start highschool and never thought of such things.

I did tend to enjoy my science courses most in highschool and still do to this day.

 

[gujuDoc]

On a related note, I never really kept up with a lot of my old highschool classmates but the one I know who did make it into med school was always a hard worker and involved in the same sort of activities in highschool as in college: Mostly community service of different sorts. The type of friends she made in college were similar in nature to her friends in highschool.

She was always the type who took honors classes and was in IB program. Her friends were people who wouldn't be thought of as the popular crowd and were not those kind of people who looked like models. But they were all down to earth people and often good nice people who worked hard. A lot of people liked her because of her sweet and practical nature. Though her own father was a physician and she came from wealth you never saw a glint of snobbery from her and still don't. A very simple person.

I tend to think she falls in the original posters characterization of what he's expecting to see. However, she did struggle somewhat to get into med school and just barely got off a waitlist to only one place with no other acceptances whereas getting into a good undergrad school was not severely tough for her. But personality wise she is the same.

 

[gujuDoc]

Interesting question...and interesting responses.

I always worked my butt off. I was the student that all the teachers knew...made all A's...NHS and all that crap.

I disagree with the statement that all dreams come true...because if you're in college and you have a 2.8 GPA...you're not going to become a doctor. There's no way around that one.

I hate to be the one to educate you, but many of those people who really wanted it made it despite 2.77 or 2.8 GPAs. The difference was they entered postbac or Masters programs to increase their GPAs and rocked the MCAT out. I know quite a few people now in med school who had 2.5 GPAs when they were originally undergrads. The difference was that they came back to school at 35+ years old and got 4.0s as postbacs and 35+ MCAT scores.

There was one guy a couple years ago who had a 2.77 GPA and 33 MCAT and got into WFU in NC.

There was another person on SDN who got in this past year with a 2.77 GPA which he brought up to 3.0 with 4.0 in one year of postbac and a 38 MCAT score.

it is possible if you are willing to put years of postbac or grad school and if you can pull off a good MCAT score.

 

[AnthonyNY]

my proposed theory is that everyone on this forum was quite successful as a high school/junior high schooler. the college turn-around is a rare exception.

College turn-around right here. I just didnt care about my grades in high school - but I could always just get by on the tests. Example: "Sequential 1" a high school math course in New York. Really didn't do any work, cut class alot, etc. Studied for a day before the State Regents and got a 95.

I had the potential, and always testetd very high on "aptitiude tests", but I just didn't know what I was really working for in any of my schooling before college. Actually, it pains me now to think about how well I could have done if I had just put in some effort and found motivation. Another example: I scored a 1350 on the SAT with absolutely no prep whatsoever, not even a PSAT... If only I knew then what I know now ... live and learn.

Anyway, college opened my eyes in the sense that it showed me the real meaning, value, and importance, of education. And the style of study was so far removed from high school; "here is the text, this is what you need to read for the test, which is on this date, goodbye". That is what I responded to. I needed the challenge and the responsibility without someone checking up on me or grading my F-ing homework.

So, I guess I responded to this post because, according to your theory, I am the rare exception; the college turn-around. Always had the potential, just needed to believe in myself and assume some responsibility.

 

[t33sg1rl]

I had the potential, and always testetd very high on "aptitiude tests", but I just didn't know what I was really working for in any of my schooling before college. Actually, it pains me now to think about how well I could have done if I had just put in some effort and found motivation. Another example: I scored a 1350 on the SAT with absolutely no prep whatsoever, not even a PSAT... If only I knew then what I know now ... live and learn.

Another one here... I always aced standardized exams but in high school, I never ever studied. I quickly learned that I could get B's without trying and I just took Honors/AP classes, which came with a full point GPA boost at my high school and were really not harder than the "regular" classes... probably there was more reading, but I didn't read so that was kinda moot.
Anyway, I bottomed out in college becase a) I had no idea why I was there and b) I had never actually studied before, so I didn't know how.

If parents are bringing over their teenagers and wanting to know if they can still be doctors, I'd suggest talking to the kids alone. Ask them what they want. Chances are your answer will be "I dunno"... in which case, tell the parents to lay off and give the kid a chance to explore different careers, even (gasp!) careers that don't require a college education.

 

[gujuDoc]

I have a friend who is starting med school in the fall. When he was in highschool, he dropped out of highschool but not because he was a bad kid or anything.

He opted to get a GED rather then HS diploma because he felt the teachers were ******ed and not really teaching him anything. He actually is very intelligent and self taught himself the rest of what he needed to know.

He felt he wasn't challenged enough in his highschool and it was a waste of time going there and feeling like things were being dumbed down too much.

 

[shellac]

medical school is a joke, it's so easy

 

[RxnMan]

...I disagree with the statement that all dreams come true...because if you're in college and you have a 2.8 GPA...you're not going to become a doctor. There's no way around that one.

Actually, there's at least two on this thread that disprove that rule.

 

[PharmDFisher]

I think almost anyone can get into medical school if they work hard enough...IF. To the OP, I think you pretty much got it right. High school isnt so much like medical school or even college (well, depending on your major...) If you worked hard, you did well. Everyone I know from high school that ended up going to medical school, or any other professional school for that matter, did very well in school, was in all honors/AP classes, ~1300 SAT or better, NHS...you know what kind of student I'm talking about. Even if you had that kid that got a 1600 SAT but never worked worth a damn, well, college will weed them out once they get to organic chem!

I took all ap classes, and flunked a lot of hs classes senior year i missed oh 47 days in the year, but i passed every single ap test i took... i got a 1480 with a perfect on the math... so far in college nothing but A's, even organic chemistry

know why? cause i learned college cost a !$#$ ton and if im paying for it i mind as well go