What percentage of applicants never make it?

[Goro]

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Really? As in Caribbean Meds? Why? I find that somewhat surprising since they're not ranked.

I did know a south Asian doctor who was trying to talk his kid into going to med school abroad right out of high school. Thankfully, his kid went the traditional route.

All thosue parents see is "MD school". They know nothing else.
True but sad story. I had a student who was dismissed from our program. But one day, he shows up with his dad, who wanted to argue about re-admitting the kid. I was so gobsmacked by this that I sat politely and listened to the dad. Then I told them that as course coordinator, the Dean had spoken, and this was irreversible.

Never again I will talk to a parent.

I think the dad mentioned something about sending the kid to a Carib school.

Poor kid looked miserable the whole time.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

All thosue parents see is "MD school". They know nothing else.
True but sad story. I had a student who was dismissed from our program. But one day, he shows up with his dad, who wanted to argue about re-admitting the kid. I was so gobsmacked by this that I sat politely and listened to the dad. Then I told them that as course coordinator, the Dean had spoken, and this was irreversible.

Never again I will talk to a parent.

I think the dad mentioned something about sending the kid to a Carib school.

Poor kid looked miserable the whole time.

When parents show up at a med school, they're taking helicoptering to a whole new level. That said, I think it was in this forum that someone reported seeing a dad accompany his daughter at her med school interview, and he insisted on coming on the tour! 😱

 

[mwsapphire]

When parents show up at a med school, they're taking helicoptering to a whole new level. That said, I think it was in this forum that someone reported seeing a dad accompany his daughter at her med school interview, and he insisted on coming on the tour! 😱

Coming on the tour is reasonable! Maybe he wants to see her school let dads be curious OMG. And maybe she just meant dad will accompany her on the flight some people hate travelling alone....so long as they aren't being invasive it's not a big deal.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Coming on the tour is reasonable! Maybe he wants to see her school let dads be curious OMG. And maybe she just meant dad will accompany her on the flight some people hate travelling alone....so long as they aren't being invasive it's not a big deal.

I see nothing wrong with a parent traveling with their student... there's all kinds of reasons why that might happen. However, coming on the tour just looks bad to the school.

I'm not opposed to med schools offering some sort of separate tour for spouses/parents who've traveled with the applicant, but until that happens, parents should not be going on the tours that are for the interviewing students.

 

[mwsapphire]

I see nothing wrong with a parent traveling with their student... there's all kinds of reasons why that might happen. However, coming on the tour just looks bad to the school.

I'm not opposed to med schools offering some sort of separate tour for spouses/parents who've traveled with the applicant, but until that happens, parents should not be going on the tours that are for the interviewing students.

Fair enough. I'm just getting defensive b/c I can see my dad doing that....

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Fair enough. I'm just getting defensive b/c I can see my dad doing that....

I understand why family members would be interested in seeing the facilities, that's why I don't see anything wrong with med schools offering some sort of "side tour" for relatives....away from the applicant tour.

I remember an undergrad orientation director telling me that colleges had to start hosting "parent orientations" at the same time because so many parents were showing up. Schools began providing these separate orientations to allow the students to be away from parents so that they could ask whatever questions the students needed to ask.

 

[gyngyn]

Coming on the tour is reasonable! Maybe he wants to see her school let dads be curious OMG. And maybe she just meant dad will accompany her on the flight some people hate travelling alone....so long as they aren't being invasive it's not a big deal.

Not before acceptance!

 

[gyngyn]

I understand why family members would be interested in seeing the facilities, that's why I don't see anything wrong with med schools offering some sort of "side tour" for relatives....away from the applicant tour.

I remember an undergrad orientation director telling me that colleges had to start hosting "parent orientations" at the same time because so many parents were showing up. Schools began providing these separate orientations to allow the students to be away from parents so that they could ask whatever questions the students needed to ask.

We now have a parent orientation: setting boundaries and expectations has become necessary.

 

[mwsapphire]

Not before acceptance!

Oooohhhh I thought this was a post acceptance tour....my bad...

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Oooohhhh I thought this was a post acceptance tour....my bad...

No, this is interview day.

I totally understand why family members (parents/spouses/SO's) have a serious interest and they often have a serious financial interest. As @gyngyn mentions, his/her school now includes a separate tour for relatives. Not only does that set boundaries, but it allows the student to feel free to ask whatever they want without "big ears" nearby. Smart, proactive move.

 

[Goro]

Gyngyn has some real horror stories with parents.

When parents show up at a med school, they're taking helicoptering to a whole new level. That said, I think it was in this forum that someone reported seeing a dad accompany his daughter at her med school interview, and he insisted on coming on the tour! 😱

We now have a parent orientation: setting boundaries and expectations has become necessary.

 

[gyngyn]

Gyngyn has some real horrors stories with parents.

If only you knew!

 

[Goro]

If only you knew!

Of the ones you've shared with us, all I can say is that no screenwriter could make anything up like them!!!

 

[PreMedMissteps]

If only you knew!

Dish!
😀

 

[altblue]

Are you Asian/Muslim?
Also, @efle , you're in a gap year, right? Did you have to convince your parents it was worth it ( trying to figure out if this sentiment is typical with the usual American family).

Nope, I'm white and irreligious lol

 

[gyngyn]

Dish!
😀

Parents suing because their darling wasn't accepted.
Parents writing their darling's assignments.
Parents pointing out that the US president has behaved worse than their darling.
Parents assuring us that, but for their darling, patients would die (as MS2's no less).
Parents threatening suicide if their child did not pass.
Parents stalking us.
You get the drift.

 

[altblue]

QFT, I was shocked when they told me their parents were forcing them to retake a competitive score, my own parents didn't know what the MCAT was when I told them I was studying for it. Makes sense why you hear about some medical students being miserable because it wasn't really their own choice of career.


They were surprised because they knew I had good grades and thought that was all that really mattered for admissions, but they didn't express any disapproval or anything like that.

Yup. It's actually kind of sad really. Maybe some of them wish they were researchers, artists, or educators.... . in another life.

 

[Donna Moss]

.

 

[mwsapphire]

It's because they are so hell bent on saying their kid is an MD, makes X amount of money, with fancy cars/houses/travel plans. My own father tried to push me toward Caribbean schools post graduation. Parents pushing their kids into defined paths led to major depression/self insecurities in my case. A whole lot of self introspection and addressing mental health issues. But finally I was like, I want to go about this right way, take a few years, fix my grades and give it my best shot. There's no point in rushing.

In my case getting competitive grades is condition for the gap year- resume is nothing w/o grades, according to my parents. Although, a gap year would allow for my senior year grades to shine, too.

 

[cactusman]

In my case getting competitive grades is condition for the gap year- resume is nothing w/o grades, according to my parents. Although, a gap year would allow for my senior year grades to shine, too.

If you don't have high enough grades, how are they going to stop you from taking a gap year? Force you to apply (how? You could probably be financially dependent once you graduate)? Even if you did apply with low grades is likely to result in rejection and then you still end up having a year off. Or you pick out bad school choices (OOS publics or something) and write bad secondaries if you actively wanted to take a gap year.

I get parental pressure, but at some point the conditions become much less meaningful.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Parents suing because their darling wasn't accepted.
Parents writing their darling's assignments.
Parents pointing out that the US president has behaved worse than their darling.
Parents assuring us that, but for their darling, patients would die (as MS2's no less).
Parents threatening suicide if their child did not pass.
Parents stalking us.
You get the drift.

And stalking??? That's restraining order territory!

 

[Toutie]

And stalking??? That's restraining order territory!

Obviously you haven't been around long enough to hear some of @gyngyn stories. His ones about the outfits/costumes that some applicants have worn to interviews over the years are just classic!

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Makes sense why you hear about some medical students being miserable because it wasn't really their own choice of career.

This always shocks me.

You'd think that if someone's heart really wasn't in it they'd accidentally-on-purpose screw up their app or their interviews a bit. Or you'd think that at least their lack of sincere interest would come thru during their interviews.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

Obviously you haven't been around long enough to hear some of @gyngyn stories. His ones about the outfits/costumes that some applicants have worn to interviews over the years are just classic!

I think I recall reading someone (maybe gyngyn) mention a secondary photo of an applicant who was either in swimsuit or maybe his birthday suit. 😱

 

[gyngyn]

And stalking??? That's restraining order territory!

Just about every year...

 

[DBC03]

I'm honestly trying to imagine this right now. My parents have always pushed me to be mediocre. I wanted to go Ivy and my dad said, "what's wrong with a state school. It was good enough for me and it should be good enough for you, too." You can't imagine what he said when I told him I was going to apply to medical school, especially when I was a perfectly respectable engineer.

I definitely feel for kids who get pushed into this. It was a difficult enough decision to make on my own. Being forced into it? Awful.

 

[cactusman]

Parents pointing out that the US president has behaved worse than their darling.

In the future, when I don't want to bother writing a conclusion, I'll end my assignments with "covfefe," and if professors get annoyed then I can use this argument to covfefe

 

[altblue]

I'm honestly trying to imagine this right now. My parents have always pushed me to be mediocre. I wanted to go Ivy and my dad said, "what's wrong with a state school. It was good enough for me and it should be good enough for you, too." You can't imagine what he said when I told him I was going to apply to medical school, especially when I was a perfectly respectable engineer.

I definitely feel for kids who get pushed into this. It was a difficult enough decision to make on my own. Being forced into it? Awful.

When I was complaining about orgo and later pchem my dad was telling me that I didn't have to be a doctor for him to be proud of me.

And yup I can't imagine the pressure being added on top of this life decision

 

[bbbcccppp]

I think I recall reading someone (maybe gyngyn) mention a secondary photo of an applicant who was either in swimsuit or maybe his birthday suit. 😱

That could get you admitted at some places


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Toutie]

That could get you admitted at some places


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

All depends on what you look like in a bathing suit/birthday suit. 🙂 or 😱

 

[SuaveCardigans]

Just about every year...

I had no idea being on an adcom could be so dangerous...

 

[PreMedMissteps]

I had no idea being on an adcom could be so dangerous...

I had no idea, either. But now that I think about it, I've known some families who've literally invested all they had in Mary's or Johnny's expensive undergrad education (even going so far as selling their homes, raiding their retirement funds, and squeezing into tiny apartments) while betting on their child's future big doctor salary to support them during their elder years. With that sort of pressure in the background, I can see that some might become unhinged when their snowflake doesn't get admitted.

 

[738177]

Really? As in Caribbean Meds? Why? I find that somewhat surprising since they're not ranked.

I did know a south Asian doctor who was trying to talk his kid into going to med school abroad right out of high school. Thankfully, his kid went the traditional route.

According to South Asian parents, your only 3 career options are: Doctor, Engineer, Lawyer. Earlier you get to these goals, the better. PhD used to be the other popular option but word got around that it doesn't pay as well.
Funny you mention the high school thing. I know a kid who just started at a Irish med school. 6 year program and tuition is ~60k per year! That's freaking terrifying.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

According to South Asian parents, your only 3 career options are: Doctor, Engineer, Lawyer.

Not only South Asian parents.

I've seen a number of parents who only give doctor and engineering (and maybe pharmacist) as options, and many times it's because they expect their kids to support them in their old age, as well as bragging rights.

 

[begoood95]

Growing up in an Arab household, man, does the whole "doctor, engineer, lawyer" thing ring true. I'm lucky in that I found that being a physician will probably suit me.

My sister on the other hand... after she told my parents that she didn't want to become a lawyer (and instead a professor, gasp!) all hell broke lose. Then, she said she wanted to add another major, the second one being Gender and Women's Studies. My parents were not pleased, to say the least.

 

[DokterMom]

Yes, the idea of having a gap year, to some parents, is like having a kid loafing on the couch.

As for retaking a top 15% MCAT, it's even worse when these students are in high school and their parents are pressuring them to retake an ACT 35 or a SAT 1570 (new).

The obsession with top school names must be exhausting.

I disagree -- The only downside to retaking a 35 ACT or 1570 SAT is wasted time. You do better? - Great! You do worse? - nobody has to know.

But there's a real downside to retaking a top MCAT score. Even if you do better, it's evidence of poor judgement in addition to hubris. You do worse? - Bad judgement, hubris and stupidity.

 

[hellobigcat]

Really? As in Caribbean Meds? Why? I find that somewhat surprising since they're not ranked.

I did know a south Asian doctor who was trying to talk his kid into going to med school abroad right out of high school. Thankfully, his kid went the traditional route.

South Asian parents are familiar with the MBBS doctor track straight out of high school. Right after 18, MBBS students embark on 4.5 years of study followed by 1 year of internship before they can practice in India. To them, going through 4 year of undergrad, 4 years of med school, and another 4 years of residency seems ridiculous. Plus, they have never heard of DO, and think it is less than an MD.

Therefore, a Caribbean med school that offers an MD or an MBBS in an Indian or UK school seems more worthwhile than "wasting" time and money in an undergrad -> USMD doctor track.

 

[hellobigcat]

I disagree -- The only downside to retaking a 35 ACT or 1570 SAT is wasted time. You do better? - Great! You do worse? - nobody has to know.

But there's a real downside to retaking a top MCAT score. Even if you do better, it's evidence of poor judgement in addition to hubris. You do worse? - Bad judgement, hubris and stupidity.

I have always believed in this conspiracy theory that schools can see all of your scores even if you send your highest.

 

[814965]

I'm reapplying and more than likely won't try again if I don't get in anywhere a second time, so it would be interesting to see data for reapplicants.

 

[hellobigcat]

My paramedic instructor comes from an Italian immigrant family. She sympathized with the whole Asian tiger parent thing. From the perspective of an immigrant, leaving a life behind to raise a family in a foreign land is only really worthwhile if your offspring end up taking advantage of every benefit of being an American: the education, speaking English as a first language, etc. etc. This inevitably leads to wanting your children to go to an Ivy league, and go onto medical school, business, or a lawyer.

I've met Italians, Polish, and West African immigrants that have the same goals for their children, because of the reasons above.

Edit: I realize I'm drifting off topic. sorry.

 

[Goro]

I'm reapplying and more than likely won't try again if I don't get in anywhere a second time, so it would be interesting to see data for reapplicants.

It's going to vary form school to school, and the SDN meme that you're really disadvantaged may be more hype than reality. My take is that people who merely reapply without fixing thier deficits are in the worst situation, while good candidates who applied late but reapply early in Take 2 can have better success. Ditto for moderate candidates who aimed too high in Take 1.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

I have always believed in this conspiracy theory that schools can see all of your scores even if you send your highest.

This can be very true because many schools transcripts have all your scores on them.
In fact, there are some colleges that don't even bother to ask you to send scores because they know they'll see them on your transcripts

 

[PreMedMissteps]

disagree -- The only downside to retaking a 35 ACT or 1570 SAT is wasted time. You do better? - Great! You do worse? - nobody has to know.

First of all there are some schools that require you send all your scores. Furthermore, if they see all your scores and they see retook a very high score, it could suggest some negative things about you

And see the above post where many schools include all your scores on the transcripts

 

[DokterMom]

First of all there are some schools that require you send all your scores. Furthermore, if they see all your scores and they see retook a very high score, it could suggest some negative things about you

And see the above post where many schools include all your scores on the transcripts

Interesting -- A change for the better, IMO since the old way -- take it as often as you want -- further advantaged the rich kids who could easily afford multiple attempts.

 

[cactusman]

I disagree -- The only downside to retaking a 35 ACT or 1570 SAT is wasted time. You do better? - Great! You do worse? - nobody has to know.

But there's a real downside to retaking a top MCAT score. Even if you do better, it's evidence of poor judgement in addition to hubris. You do worse? - Bad judgement, hubris and stupidity.

First of all there are some schools that require you send all your scores. Furthermore, if they see all your scores and they see retook a very high score, it could suggest some negative things about you

And see the above post where many schools include all your scores on the transcripts

Not to mention the psychological message of telling your 17 year old that scoring in the top ~0.5%+ is not good enough.

I don't think there's any way colleges can know if you took the ACT repeatedly (unlike SAT), although I think Tufts at least tries to request that all exams, including all ACT dates, are sent. They're also need-aware and take half their class ED so they're probably not doing it for the benefit of lower SES students, though.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

I'm reapplying and more than likely won't try again if I don't get in anywhere a second time, so it would be interesting to see data for reapplicants.

What is your situation? Such data won't mean much if your application is weak or troubled, or you have a poor list.

 

[814965]

What is your situation? Such data won't mean much if your application is weak or troubled, or you have a poor list.

My app's not bad. Pretty competitive for DO and low to mid-tier MD. I improved it a lot since last year and applied really early to a better-crafted school list. I'd be interested in seeing the overall stats for reapplicants just because they'd be interesting to see.

 

[PreMedMissteps]

My app's not bad. Pretty competitive for DO and low to mid-tier MD. I improved it a lot since last year and applied really early to a better-crafted school list. I'd be interested in seeing the overall stats for reapplicants just because they'd be interesting to see.

Good.

Do you have a few instate publics? Did you apply to all of them last year as well? What significant things have you improved since last year? How many DO schools did you apply to this year?

 

[814965]

Good.

Do you have a few instate publics? Did you apply to all of them last year as well? What significant things have you improved since last year? How many DO schools did you apply to this year?

Don't feel like listing all that. My app's good. My point was that it would just be interesting to see the stats if they existed. That's all.