What purpose does Verbal serve on MCAT

[Midifelder10]

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If you can perform on physical and biological section why is verbal weighed so heavy. If you are doing fine in other sections you do understand the language, can communicate with the patients. This section has kept some good students who wanted to be in med school from pursuing their dreams. It is so counterproductive and inefficient that people are taking this test multiple times just to get in.

Example A; P 11, V 7, BS 11 29
Example B: P 9, V 13, B 9 31

Who has a better chance of success in Med school? My vote A.

I don't want to start crap but a honest intellectual discussion only.

 

[kperry]

While I certainly can not say if an adcom would prefer a over b, my opinion would be that student b would be more desirable over student a due to the well-roundness of student b. While student a does demonstrate competency in the sciences, I believe that adcoms are looking for students who excel in every phase of the mcat. Student b has decent scores in ps and bs and a great score in vr while student a only shows competency in 2/3 sections.

I could be completely wrong in my assessment, but the mcat is an exam designed to test your overall critical thinking ability, not just scientific critical thinking. I hate verbal reasoning as much as the next person but you have to work at it and demonstrate that you are well-rounded. Also, the mcat and verbal reasoning is just another hoop that you have to jump through to show how much you want to be a doctor. It may not seem relevant but you just have to do it. Its as simple as that.

 

[andrewsmack05]

I am not sure but I think its quoted somewhere that verbal is an indicator of how you will do in medical school. Somebody else can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is the reasoning.

 

[Midifelder10]

While I certainly can not say if an adcom would prefer a over b, my opinion would be that student b would be more desirable over student a due to the well-roundness of student b. While student a does demonstrate competency in the sciences, I believe that adcoms are looking for students who excel in every phase of the mcat. Student b has decent scores in ps and bs and a great score in vr while student a only shows competency in 2/3 sections.

I could be completely wrong in my assessment, but the mcat is an exam designed to test your overall critical thinking ability, not just scientific critical thinking. I hate verbal reasoning as much as the next person but you have to work at it and demonstrate that you are well-rounded. Also, the mcat and verbal reasoning is just another hoop that you have to jump through to show how much you want to be a doctor. It may not seem relevant but you just have to do it. Its as simple as that.

The well rounded argument is fine but verbal is just one criteria that shows well rounded. It is no different than someone showing well rounded by sports, hunting fishing etc. If someone is well read as other sections indicate this is an unnecessary hoop.

 

[Midifelder10]

I am not sure but I think its quoted somewhere that verbal is an indicator of how you will do in medical school. Somebody else can correct me if I am wrong but I believe that is the reasoning.

On the contrary this section has no correlation, none whatsoever.

 

[V5RED]

PS tests how well you can solve physics and chemistry questions posed by scientists.

BS tests how well you can solve biology and organic chemistry questions posed by scientists.

VR tests how well you can understand new information whether it is given to you by an artist, a scientist, a scholar, a priest, or any other type of person.

The other two sections can have new-ish information from journal articles, but the truth is those are just regular physics/chemistry/biology/organic chemistry questions with a bit of window dressing to make them seem new. Any information that was not previously known is explained in the passage and it is all based on the science you were told to know.

VR questions are random and not based on anything you were meant to have studied. You didn't get a year of classes plus months of dedicated content review to learn the topics you see on VR, you get about 5 minutes. Given the massive amount of information you will be expected to learn in medical school in a much shorter time than >1 year, this seems pretty useful to me.

 

[lastdrop]

On the contrary this section has no correlation, none whatsoever.

Do you have a source for this?

 

[gtbROX]

I've come to see verbal as testing two things: short term memory and logic. I know many test prep companies argue against the former, but I have found that I do better on verbal and get high scores when I am able to remember most of the passage style, tone, details, and layout. Logic is just what most of the mcat is about, and a physician, if anything, should be logical and rational.

Now, why is it necessary for the medical schools to see your verbal score? Shadow a PCP, hospitalist, or any kind of doctor that sees and talks to patients directly and diagnoses them. A good doctor would listen to the patient and see the whole picture and remember the important details of that conversation. An example that comes to my mind is a woman that looked pregnant and she had never taken a pregnancy test or ultrasound to find out if she was carrying. She told the doctor that she was told at a previous clinic that she had high blood pressure among other health issues. The doctor then told her she may have ascites, and they did an ultrasound and found this to be true so they used paracentesis to remove the excess fluid build up. I asked the doctor how he knew it was this versus a pregnancy, and the doctor said that she had low serum albumin levels which is common in liver diseases and high blood pressure. From talking to her and discovering her religious background and beliefs he guessed that she would not have been participating in sexual activity at the time, but he had the ultrasound done anyways.

Verbal is hard, but why would current doctors, people with M.D. degrees that have actually experience the physician's life firsthand, put it in the medical school admission test if it wasn't necessary?

 

[Midifelder10]

PS tests how well you can solve physics and chemistry questions posed by scientists.

BS tests how well you can solve biology and organic chemistry questions posed by scientists.

VR tests how well you can understand new information whether it is given to you by an artist, a scientist, a scholar, a priest, or any other type of person.

The other two sections can have new-ish information from journal articles, but the truth is those are just regular physics/chemistry/biology/organic chemistry questions with a bit of window dressing to make them seem new. Any information that was not previously known is explained in the passage and it is all based on the science you were told to know.

VR questions are random and not based on anything you were meant to have studied. You didn't get a year of classes plus months of dedicated content review to learn the topics you see on VR, you get about 5 minutes. Given the massive amount of information you will be expected to learn in medical school in a much shorter time than >1 year, this seems pretty useful to me.

I can make 10 questions in physics that can test your intellect. Same is true for chem bio, organic and you can have random questions to test from. I dont see any justification for verbal or the humanity aspect of that. If I can understand quantum theory trust me I will pick up medicine.

 

[Midifelder10]

I've come to see verbal as testing two things: short term memory and logic. I know many test prep companies argue against the former, but I have found that I do better on verbal and get high scores when I am able to remember most of the passage style, tone, details, and layout. Logic is just what most of the mcat is about, and a physician, if anything, should be logical and rational.

Now, why is it necessary for the medical schools to see your verbal score? Shadow a PCP, hospitalist, or any kind of doctor that sees and talks to patients directly and diagnoses them. A good doctor would listen to the patient and see the whole picture and remember the important details of that conversation. An example that comes to my mind is a woman that looked pregnant and she had never taken a pregnancy test or ultrasound to find out if she was carrying. She told the doctor that she was told at a previous clinic that she had high blood pressure among other health issues. The doctor then told her she may have ascites, and they did an ultrasound and found this to be true so they used paracentesis to remove the excess fluid build up. I asked the doctor how he knew it was this versus a pregnancy, and the doctor said that she had low serum albumin levels which is common in liver diseases and high blood pressure. From talking to her and discovering her religious background and beliefs he guessed that she would not have been participating in sexual activity at the time, but he had the ultrasound done anyways.

Verbal is hard, but why would current doctors, people with M.D. degrees that have actually experience the physician's life firsthand, put it in the medical school admission test if it wasn't necessary?

Lot of science courses can prepare you for that i.e. remembering stuff. Why do MDs have that as a portion of test I don't know but the one I talked to told me it was irrelevant. Is it MD's who want it or the humanities major who insist on having this as a part of the test?

 

[LianaStan]

I would give B an interview over A.

Since when did elementary physics and organic chemistry play a huge role in the daily tasks of practitioners? You think knowing the cell cycle is really all that relevant to whether someone is a good doctor? Being well-rounded applies only for the direct skills of a doctor. The tools you learn now are tools that help you in learning the skills to be in medicine, they are not the skills directly.

What the PS and BS sections will show is the ability to work hard to comprehend and memorize information. VR tests an innate (harder to improve) ability to think critically and efficiently. Being a doctor, I would say, is more about analyzing complex information and making the best decision than outright memorization.

While low science scores would be a red flag for me as it indicates a lack of time and dedication put forth for a significant test, I would weigh verbal reasoning significantly higher because the ceiling that person can reach is higher; thus, if I was on an admissions committee, I would grant that person an interview and see if he/she is committed to changing habits to improve dedication and work harder.

On a final note (which I hope will not offend too many people), it is not as if the sciences that we have to know for the MCAT are particularly difficult. They are the most basic concepts in each of the respective fields. If you and anyone else do get into medical school, I think it highly likely that you may look back at the MCAT and scoff at its simplicity.

P.S. I am not bashing the sciences, I agree that a solid scientific background is a plus, as it will make med school much easier to understand. Also, my argument is assuming we are not talking about two different applicants with extreme differences in scores (i.e. 14/6/14 vs 7/15/7 . Such scenarios are rare, but definitely more interesting as it really highlights the specific weaknesses of the applicants. They would both have to prove to me that they can overcome those weaknesses).

 

[Midifelder10]

Do you have a source for this?

http://internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon et al (2007) Acad Med.pdf

BS, ps and then verbal. Very poor correlation.

 

[LianaStan]

I can make 10 questions in physics that can test your intellect. Same is true for chem bio, organic and you can have random questions to test from. I dont see any justification for verbal or the humanity aspect of that. If I can understand quantum theory trust me I will pick up medicine.

I agree with this statement, but I feel the sciences on the MCAT are so shallow that it is simply a recognition of a pattern or concept. If they really wanted to make the MCAT a logical science test, then yes, they could include mathematical proofs or quantum theory. The fact is they don't because it would be unfair as colleges nationwide do not have equal higher education. However, the elementary sciences are on a more level playing field. Since it is only basic sciences being tested, there is no differentiation between those who can actually think critically and those with only knowledge of basic concepts.

Is it any wonder that Bio majors score consistently in the bottom per section on the MCAT? I will link you to this interesting website that breaks down the MCAT by majors:
http://medschoolodyssey.wordpress.c...ics-on-the-mcat-and-your-undergraduate-major/

Of course this is a correlation, and we can only infer about why the breakdown is the way it is.

 

[Midifelder10]

I agree with this statement, but I feel the sciences on the MCAT are so shallow that it is simply a recognition of a pattern or concept. If they really wanted to make the MCAT a logical science test, then yes, they could include mathematical proofs or quantum theory. The fact is they don't because it would be unfair as colleges nationwide do not have equal higher education. However, the elementary sciences are on a more level playing field. Since it is only basic sciences being tested, there is no differentiation between those who can actually think critically and those with only knowledge of basic concepts.

Is it any wonder that Bio majors score consistently in the bottom per section on the MCAT? I will link you to this interesting website that breaks down the MCAT by majors:
http://medschoolodyssey.wordpress.c...ics-on-the-mcat-and-your-undergraduate-major/

Of course this is a correlation, and we can only infer about why the breakdown is the way it is.

Agreed but some basic sciences do require thinking. Verbal on the other hand I don't know, extremely inefficient.

 

[BoxVersionAce]

I can make 10 questions in physics that can test your intellect. Same is true for chem bio, organic and you can have random questions to test from. I dont see any justification for verbal or the humanity aspect of that. If I can understand quantum theory trust me I will pick up medicine.

Many would agree, even those that have scored high, that the MCAT is a fundamentally flawed test that does not correlate well to one's success in medical school or as a physician. This sentiment does not refer to verbal alone, but the test as a whole. Sure, understanding the pre-req sciences REALLY (like I'm talking 13-15 range not the difference between 9 and 11) well may mean that you are more able to succeed in medical school. But there is a certain point when you gotta say none of this crap matters and its just another exam.

Many medical schools have english and humanities prerequisites. Some students complain about that thinking all they need to know is science. Would you complain about that? Moreover, isn't it quite odd that adcoms recommend students to forge a well rounded application that reflects that student's diversity and personal interests? These questions aren't entirely relevant, but I hope you get my point.

 

[LianaStan]

Many would agree, even those that have scored high, that the MCAT is a fundamentally flawed test that does not correlate well to one's success in medical school or as a physician. This sentiment does not refer to verbal alone, but the test as a whole. Sure, understanding the pre-req sciences REALLY (like I'm talking 13-15 range not the difference between 9 and 11) well may mean that you are more able to succeed in medical school. But there is a certain point when you gotta say none of this crap matters and its just another exam.

Many medical schools have english and humanities prerequisites. Some students complain about that thinking all they need to know is science. Would you complain about that? Moreover, isn't it quite odd that adcoms recommend students to forge a well rounded application that reflects that student's diversity and personal interests? These questions aren't entirely relevant, but I hope you get my point.

I have to disagree with this statement. The MCAT is an indicator of intelligence + dedication. Those two factors are important in any academic field. While the MCAT may not be the best screening factor (which is supported by the drastic changes we will see in the near future for it), it does allow us to quantify to some degree these two traits of an applicant. One can be incredibly intelligent, yet do poorly because of a lack of hard work, and vice versa. Everyone possesses some sort of balance between these two. Now whether you are a good doctor is another thing, as more subjective traits must be taken into account. However, the MCAT does do an okay job imo of screening out those that may not survive the rigors of medical school.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I can make 10 questions in physics that can test your intellect. Same is true for chem bio, organic and you can have random questions to test from. I dont see any justification for verbal or the humanity aspect of that. If I can understand quantum theory trust me I will pick up medicine.

Hmm..well if you can pick up quantum physics and medicine you should be able to "pick up" enough skills to get past VR. I would argue that reading comprehension is the most important skill to have going into medical school. They are going to reteach the BS stuff and most of PS never really comes up.

 

[Renaissance Man]

I would give B an interview over A.

Since when did elementary physics and organic chemistry play a huge role in the daily tasks of practitioners? You think knowing the cell cycle is really all that relevant to whether someone is a good doctor? Being well-rounded applies only for the direct skills of a doctor. The tools you learn now are tools that help you in learning the skills to be in medicine, they are not the skills directly.

This. Very well said.

 

[Midifelder10]

Hmm..well if you can pick up quantum physics and medicine you should be able to "pick up" enough skills to get past VR. I would argue that reading comprehension is the most important skill to have going into medical school. They are going to reteach the BS stuff and most of PS never really comes up.

Unfortunately I cant.Comfortable double digits in everything suck at verbal, main reason for the post.
If you look at the scientific data three is no correlation and I can comprehend everything else.

 

[Midifelder10]

This. Very well said.

When did knowing Shakespear is an important trait for learning medicine?

 

[BoxVersionAce]

I have to disagree with this statement. The MCAT is an indicator of intelligence + dedication. Those two factors are important in any academic field. While the MCAT may not be the best screening factor (which is supported by the drastic changes we will see in the near future for it), it does allow us to quantify to some degree these two traits of an applicant. One can be incredibly intelligent, yet do poorly because of a lack of hard work, and vice versa. Everyone possesses some sort of balance between these two. Now whether you are a good doctor is another thing, as more subjective traits must be taken into account. However, the MCAT does do an okay job imo of screening out those that may not survive the rigors of medical school.

Well, do you at least agree with the first sentence in my quote? I may have exaggerated when I said "none" and "crap." But I just wanted to get the point across that the MCAT as a whole doesn't necessarily correlate to success as a physician, in an argument that centers around the PS and BS being good indicators of success. I suppose I mistakenly made an implication that a good MCAT score does not indicate hardwork or intelligence, useful tools in medical school and any situation. Nonetheless, these tools may or may not be used in a way that fosters ones career as a physician or medical student, based on the subjective factors you've referred to. The explication made here is based on the fact that the OP thinks that a good understanding of PS and BS should land an interview on the basis of evaluating one's probable success in medical school.

 

[Renaissance Man]

When did knowing Shakespear is an important trait for learning medicine?

Wat?

Anyways, I never said that being familiar with Shakespeare's works would help you in medical school. Although it wouldn't hurt you. I agreed with a poster who said that being well-rounded and having well-honed reading comprehension and critical thinking skills are more important than remembering the steps of the TCA cycle.

Let's be honest, most practicing physicians probably don't remember what a Lineweaver-Burk plot looks like or what it is used for. Comprehending basic, biology, chemistry, and physics is all well and good, and obviously important. However a computer can recall scientific facts.

I think VR is important because it asks you to read about a subject you aren't familiar with, gain a basic understanding of it, and then synthesize that information in order to solve a problem. To me, those skill sound like they could be useful to a physician.

 

[dropper]

Nothing really matters
Anyone can see

 

[gtbROX]

Lot of science courses can prepare you for that i.e. remembering stuff. Why do MDs have that as a portion of test I don't know but the one I talked to told me it was irrelevant. Is it MD's who want it or the humanities major who insist on having this as a part of the test?

You do realize that there is a board of M.D.s from top tier schools that go through the mcat and decide what to put on it. Is it likely that they were all "humanities major who insist on having [it] as a part of the test"? No...
I feel that premeds nowadays feel that they are entitled to an M.D. degree, they treat it almost as if it is a right for them. When they face a difficulty they would opt to treat it like an obstacle rather than face it head on a logically resolve their situation.

My first score on verbal was a 6, and I slaved away my first month of studying doing verbal drills and reading articles and then I got a 5. I spent the next month also studying intensely for verbal and throughout I was getting 6-8s. This month I've been doing minimum of a verbal drill a day and I've been getting 9-11s on drills and AAMCs. I am one of the worst readers I know; the only things I've ever bothered to read were forums, required readings, and science articles. I am horrible with reading comprehension and the type of logic required for any critical reading section of tests. The only difference between myself and many other premeds struggling in VR is that I haven't given up. If I am to become a doctor and encounter difficult patients, similarly, I will not give up on them.

 

[Midifelder10]

You do realize that there is a board of M.D.s from top tier schools that go through the mcat and decide what to put on it. Is it likely that they were all "humanities major who insist on having [it] as a part of the test"? No...
I feel that premeds nowadays feel that they are entitled to an M.D. degree, they treat it almost as if it is a right for them. When they face a difficulty they would opt to treat it like an obstacle rather than face it head on a logically resolve their situation.

My first score on verbal was a 6, and I slaved away my first month of studying doing verbal drills and reading articles and then I got a 5. I spent the next month also studying intensely for verbal and throughout I was getting 6-8s. This month I've been doing minimum of a verbal drill a day and I've been getting 9-11s on drills and AAMCs. I am one of the worst readers I know; the only things I've ever bothered to read were forums, required readings, and science articles. I am horrible with reading comprehension and the type of logic required for any critical reading section of tests. The only difference between myself and many other premeds struggling in VR is that I haven't given up. If I am to become a doctor and encounter difficult patients, similarly, I will not give up on them.

I may give up but not yet. What your post tells me is that how in efficient it is because you have spent years of your life studying for something that has no correlation. There has to be a better way because I can communicate and understand.

 

[MedPR]

If you can perform on physical and biological section why is verbal weighed so heavy. If you are doing fine in other sections you do understand the language, can communicate with the patients. This section has kept some good students who wanted to be in med school from pursuing their dreams. It is so counterproductive and inefficient that people are taking this test multiple times just to get in.

Example A; P 11, V 7, BS 11 29
Example B: P 9, V 13, B 9 31

Who has a better chance of success in Med school? My vote A.

I don't want to start crap but a honest intellectual discussion only.

I vote B. Everything you learn in UG is borderline useless in medical school. Verbal reasoning is an innate (more or less) ability that is helpful in every aspect of life including, but not limited to, the thousands of pages of scientific information you will read in your career.

Think about it this way. What one aspect of the MCAT will you use in your career as a physician? Every single day you will communicate with other physicians, nurses, pharmacists, and patients. What is the most relevent test of communication and understanding skills on the MCAT? VR.

Plus, haven't you noticed that a good portion of the BS passages can be answered if you have solid reasoning skills and can make connections between the passage and the questions?

 

[Midifelder10]

Wat?

Anyways, I never said that being familiar with Shakespeare's works would help you in medical school. Although it wouldn't hurt you. I agreed with a poster who said that being well-rounded and having well-honed reading comprehension and critical thinking skills are more important than remembering the steps of the TCA cycle.

Let's be honest, most practicing physicians probably don't remember what a Lineweaver-Burk plot looks like or what it is used for. Comprehending basic, biology, chemistry, and physics is all well and good, and obviously important. However a computer can recall scientific facts.

I think VR is important because it asks you to read about a subject you aren't familiar with, gain a basic understanding of it, and then synthesize that information in order to solve a problem. To me, those skill sound like they could be useful to a physician.

Prove to me that verbal has anything to do with critical thinking, math does and physics too but verbal, that is a stretch. Even the AMCAS data shows it has no bearing on any outcome.

 

[Midifelder10]

I vote B. Everything you learn in UG is borderline useless in medical school. Verbal reasoning is an innate (more or less) ability that is helpful in every aspect of life including, but not limited to, the thousands of pages of scientific information you will read in your career.

Think about it this way. What one aspect of the MCAT will you use in your career as a physician? Every single day you will communicate with other physicians, nurses, pharmacists, and patients. What is the most relevent test of communication and understanding skills on the MCAT? VR.

Plus, haven't you noticed that a good portion of the BS passages can be answered if you have solid reasoning skills and can make connections between the passage and the questions?

Why dont we make all humanity majors physicians? I think the ability to analyze data (talking to patients) is more important. This does not look for skills that verbal is seeking. Listening to patients and taking verbal reasoning are two different animals.

 

[MedPR]

Why dont we make all humanity majors physicians? I think the ability to analyze data (talking to patients) is more important. This does not look for skills that verbal is seeking. Listening to patients and taking verbal reasoning are two different animals.

So I say that VR is more relevant than BS/PS and you respond with "Why don't we make all humanity majors physicians?".. Ok sir, you think BS/PS is more important than VR, so why don't we make all engineering, math, and hard science majors physicians?

No one section on its own is an indicator of your success in medical school. However, of all three, VR is the best one for several reasons.

1. Everything on BS barely scratches the surface of what you will learn in med school.
2. PS is totally useless and irrelevent for med school.
3. VR tests your knowledge and comfort level with the english language, your ability to comprehend complex and unfamiliar ideas, and your ability to understand the opinions and reasoning of another individual who may not think the same way you do.
4. Memory alone can get you points on BS/PS, not so for VR.
5. Your preparation for VR sticks with you. If you are successful on the VR section, you will likely retain those reasoning skills throughout life. I don't think the same is true for BS/PS. I took the MCAT on 4/5 and got a 33 (11-11-11). If you gave me another MCAT today, I would probably score <8 on BS and PS, and >10 on VR.

 

[ocellicyst]

Just be glad you aren't taking the 2015 MCAT.....

 

[gtbROX]

I may give up but not yet. What your post tells me is that how in efficient it is because you have spent years of your life studying for something that has no correlation. There has to be a better way because I can communicate and understand.

Medical school is tough and forces sciences into your brain. Given that, you only need a certain ability to memorize science info/formulas/details to be a suitable med school candidate. Now, whether you're a "good listener," which includes taking in info from all senses besides just hearing with great short term memory, and a good critical thinker is best tested by the verbal section. A common problem in physicians labeled, "bad doctors," is a lack or seeming lack of care in what the patient is saying or feeling. Since verbal tests your ability to focus when given different kinds of passages with different tones, topics, etc, it also tests your potential ability to focus when talking to different patients with different tones, linguistic structures and etc. Some people speak with convoluted sentence structures, some people will just ramble on and on, and some people will present the least important facts last and most important facts first; regardless of the type of patient, you're supposed to pick up the important details and put them together to diagnose and respond adequately to your patient. I hope you don't end up whining about verbal at a med school interview (if you get one) because that's one of the worst qualities you can have as a doctor.

 

[red doctober]

Just be glad you aren't taking the 2015 MCAT.....

My thoughts exactly.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the shear amount of reading that is required of medical students. During the pre-clinical years leading up to Step 1, students learn more though self-teaching using the literature than from the few hours a day they spend in the classroom and in labs. Alas, VR tests just that: reading something, extrapolating information from it, and being able to use that information to solve problems.

In my opinion, VR is as important but not more important than the other sections. VR requires particular attention from the preparing test-taker because it is often overlooked and widely considered to be the hardest to prepare for. You may find it tough to justify spending so much time in preparation for VR because you don't believe in its philosophical importance, but take it from a more applicable perspective: if you do poorly on VR, no BS or PS score will make up for that. It is what it is, and no amount of complaining will change it.

 

[Midifelder10]

My thoughts exactly.

I'm surprised no one has mentioned the shear amount of reading that is required of medical students. During the pre-clinical years leading up to Step 1, students learn more though self-teaching using the literature than from the few hours a day they spend in the classroom and in labs. Alas, VR tests just that: reading something, extrapolating information from it, and being able to use that information to solve problems.

In my opinion, VR is as important but not more important than the other sections. VR requires particular attention from the preparing test-taker because it is often overlooked and widely considered to be the hardest to prepare for. You may find it tough to justify spending so much time in preparation for VR because you don't believe in its philosophical importance, but take it from a more applicable perspective: if you do poorly on VR, no BS or PS score will make up for that. It is what it is, and no amount of complaining will change it.

All this reading is scientific none of the touchy feely stuff that verbal teaches. Reading scientific literature and verbal passages are day and night apart.

 

[Midifelder10]

Medical school is tough and forces sciences into your brain. Given that, you only need a certain ability to memorize science info/formulas/details to be a suitable med school candidate. Now, whether you're a "good listener," which includes taking in info from all senses besides just hearing with great short term memory, and a good critical thinker is best tested by the verbal section. A common problem in physicians labeled, "bad doctors," is a lack or seeming lack of care in what the patient is saying or feeling. Since verbal tests your ability to focus when given different kinds of passages with different tones, topics, etc, it also tests your potential ability to focus when talking to different patients with different tones, linguistic structures and etc. Some people speak with convoluted sentence structures, some people will just ramble on and on, and some people will present the least important facts last and most important facts first; regardless of the type of patient, you're supposed to pick up the important details and put them together to diagnose and respond adequately to your patient. I hope you don't end up whining about verbal at a med school interview (if you get one) because that's one of the worst qualities you can have as a doctor.

Most of the time a physician listens to the patient and orders battery of test. It is this scientific data that he relies on not the stuff that patient conveys. i agree it is good to listen but your scientific training is more important.

 

[Midifelder10]

So I say that VR is more relevant than BS/PS and you respond with "Why don't we make all humanity majors physicians?".. Ok sir, you think BS/PS is more important than VR, so why don't we make all engineering, math, and hard science majors physicians?

No one section on its own is an indicator of your success in medical school. However, of all three, VR is the best one for several reasons.

1. Everything on BS barely scratches the surface of what you will learn in med school.
2. PS is totally useless and irrelevent for med school.
3. VR tests your knowledge and comfort level with the english language, your ability to comprehend complex and unfamiliar ideas, and your ability to understand the opinions and reasoning of another individual who may not think the same way you do.
4. Memory alone can get you points on BS/PS, not so for VR.
5. Your preparation for VR sticks with you. If you are successful on the VR section, you will likely retain those reasoning skills throughout life. I don't think the same is true for BS/PS. I took the MCAT on 4/5 and got a 33 (11-11-11). If you gave me another MCAT today, I would probably score <8 on BS and PS, and >10 on VR.

If VR is so important than why does the data not support your argument? On the contrary it shows it has no importance at all.

 

[WTEngel]

Sounds like sour grapes from someone who got a crappy verbal score.

Spend as much time studying for and practicing your verbal REASONING skills as you do researching why they are not important, and maybe the point will be moot on your next go at the MCAT. Verbal reasoning is just one of those things you have to practice on. For some people, it just doesn't "click" like the sciences. Everyone has their Achille's heel.

Have you ever had to read the physician's note on a patient and analyze it to understand what the doctor who transferred that patient to your service is trying to say? Verbal reasoning is very important..not only to make sure that the person reading that note or charting on the patient understands what is going on, but also to ensure that the person writing the note is writing cohesively and understandably and unnecessary errors in patient care are avoided.

The statement above is just one example of how verbal reasoning is important when you become a physician.

 

[Midifelder10]

Sounds like sour grapes from someone who got a crappy verbal score.

Spend as much time studying for and practicing your verbal REASONING skills as you do researching why they are not important, and maybe the point will be moot on your next go at the MCAT. Verbal reasoning is just one of those things you have to practice on. For some people, it just doesn't "click" like the sciences. Everyone has their Achille's heel.

Have you ever had to read the physician's note on a patient and analyze it to understand what the doctor who transferred that patient to your service is trying to say? Verbal reasoning is very important..not only to make sure that the person reading that note or charting on the patient understands what is going on, but also to ensure that the person writing the note is writing cohesively and understandably and unnecessary errors in patient care are avoided.

The statement above is just one example of how verbal reasoning is important when you become a physician.

I was the first one to admit I have crappy verbal scores and hence my resentment. Is verbal the reason I should not be allowed to get in med school, that is ridiculous because i do understand what someone is talking about.
To communicate with other physician seriously you are telling me I need that level of comprehension? i respectfully disagree.

 

[gtbROX]

Most of the time a physician listens to the patient and orders battery of test. It is this scientific data that he relies on not the stuff that patient conveys. i agree it is good to listen but your scientific training is more important.

You may want to shadow some docs then because they need to be attentive to ALL of what a patient is saying. A good doctor should be analyzing, not only the physical health of the patient, but also the mental and emotional health. You don't find out the latter by just "ordering a battery of tests."Doctors have to watch out, frequently, for suicidal behavior in patients, and there are a lot of malpractice penalties for doctors who aren't observant of such. A doctor that is alert to things like suicide isn't just grounded in his or her sciences. If a doctor shouldn't care for the emotional/mental health of his or her patients, you might as well have PhDs in white coats.

 

[Midifelder10]

You may want to shadow some docs then because they need to be attentive to ALL of what a patient is saying. A good doctor should be analyzing, not only the physical health of the patient, but also the mental and emotional health. You don't find out the latter by just "ordering a battery of tests."Doctors have to watch out, frequently, for suicidal behavior in patients, and there are a lot of malpractice penalties for doctors who aren't observant of such. A doctor that is alert to things like suicide isn't just grounded in his or her sciences. If a doctor shouldn't care for the emotional/mental health of his or her patients, you might as well have PhDs in white coats.

Have shadowed plenty and what is written on patients chart is no more than AP english level. As far as suicidal behavior yes you do have to report but what has that got to do with verbal?
Most of the physicians are extremely intelligent folks but that has little to do with verbal but more to do with their grasp of sciences.

 

[red doctober]

I think that anyone has the capacity to score at least a 9 on VR, it just may require a lot of work from some people and very little from others. It's important not to compare yourself to others, especially those who can score 12+ without preparing at all. I was once very much in your shoes, thinking why can't the MCAT just test science. I struggled to score anything higher than a 10 on the practice tests and thought that I just didn't have what it took. It was very easy just to give up and blame the system, but instead I decided to fight back and bust my butt on it. The best thing I learned was that good practice meant spending more time reviewing answers and making a conscious effort to try to learn from previous mistakes. I was able to get my hands on a ton of practice materials, and spent everyday for 2 months doing a practice test. It was like conditioning my brain for the mental marathon that was VR.

If ranting about VR is your way keep yourself motivated by venting, then fine, I understand where you're coming from, but your arguments are simply not true. If you are actually right, it would mean one of two things (1) the creators of the MCAT as well as admissions committees don't know as much as you do about predictors of medical education success or (2) this is a massive conspiracy against medical school hopefuls to keep some otherwise qualified applicants from being able to enter medical school and become doctors. Don't you think that medical schools actually cared about choosing the applicants with the highest potential to succeed in medical school and beyond? Like it or not, they use VR as a predictor of success, and yes, it has been shown that VR scores positively correlate with medical school and USMLE success.

 

[WTEngel]

I was the first one to admit I have crappy verbal scores and hence my resentment. Is verbal the reason I should not be allowed to get in med school, that is ridiculous because i do understand what someone is talking about.
To communicate with other physician seriously you are telling me I need that level of comprehension? i respectfully disagree.

You may respectfully disagree, however the admissions committees at many medical schools seem to consider verbal reasoning an important part of the process, which is all the evidence I need to consider it an important part of becoming a doctor. It is pretty hard to become a doctor if you can't get in the door.

Admissions committees consider verbal important for many reasons, not limited to what I noted above. You may have done some shadowing, but I doubt you have gone over any complex patient's charts for any appreciable amount of time. I am talking complex medical ICU or Trauma ICU patients, or even complex ED patients with multiple co-morbidities and extensive visit histories with little or no follow up care. Talk about having to read multiple passages and put the material together into a cohesive and thoughtful picture!

Add the points above to the need to thoughtfully read research and other published papers, and then critically analyze them in order to determine how valid they are or how you want the considerations discussed in those documents to affect your practice. At that point, understanding is not the goal, it is simply the first step. After understanding comes thoughtful reflection on the validity and impact of what you have read...and the process continues from there.

I know it is frustrating to struggle with certain hurdles on the road to getting into medical school. But think of it this way, the things you have trouble with now are not roadblocks, they are in fact checkpoints to make sure that you are in fact ready to jump in feet first and have the highest chances of excelling in medical school.

Study up, overcome this, and it will all be a distant memory. After the first month of medical school I am pretty sure nobody even thinks about their MCAT anymore. At that point it is all about the next exam, and the next exam, and the next exam...you get the point.

 

[Midifelder10]

I think that anyone has the capacity to score at least a 9 on VR, it just may require a lot of work from some people and very little from others. It's important not to compare yourself to others, especially those who can score 12+ without preparing at all. I was once very much in your shoes, thinking why can't the MCAT just test science. I struggled to score anything higher than a 10 on the practice tests and thought that I just didn't have what it took. It was very easy just to give up and blame the system, but instead I decided to fight back and bust my butt on it. The best thing I learned was that good practice meant spending more time reviewing answers and making a conscious effort to try to learn from previous mistakes. I was able to get my hands on a ton of practice materials, and spent everyday for 2 months doing a practice test. It was like conditioning my brain for the mental marathon that was VR.

If ranting about VR is your way keep yourself motivated by venting, then fine, I understand where you're coming from, but your arguments are simply not true. If you are actually right, it would mean one of two things (1) the creators of the MCAT as well as admissions committees don't know as much as you do about predictors of medical education success or (2) this is a massive conspiracy against medical school hopefuls to keep some otherwise qualified applicants from being able to enter medical school and become doctors. Don't you think that medical schools actually cared about choosing the applicants with the highest potential to succeed in medical school and beyond? Like it or not, they use VR as a predictor of success, and yes, it has been shown that VR scores positively correlate with medical school and USMLE success.

A reasonable response instead of blowing me out of water. I have not seen any correlation between verbal and success but BS section is a better predictor followed by PS. Please see the source I have cited above proving what I said.
We are not living in a perfect world and they are not chossing the best students. They are deciding winners and losers to some extent.

 

[MedPR]

I vote B. Everything you learn in UG is borderline useless in medical school. Verbal reasoning is an innate (more or less) ability that is helpful in every aspect of life including, but not limited to, the thousands of pages of scientific information you will read in your career.

Think about it this way. What one aspect of the MCAT will you use in your career as a physician? Every single day you will communicate with other physicians, nurses, pharmacists, and patients. What is the most relevent test of communication and understanding skills on the MCAT? VR.

Plus, haven't you noticed that a good portion of the BS passages can be answered if you have solid reasoning skills and can make connections between the passage and the questions?

If VR is so important than why does the data not support your argument? On the contrary it shows it has no importance at all.

One abstract does not prove your opinion as fact, nor does it disprove mine as fallacy. It does seem obvious that science tests would be more applicable to medical school (a "science" school), but less obvious why/how reading comprehension would correlate. That deduction combined with the fact that VR has been on the MCAT for years and years would tell any logical person that the writers and users of the test (adcoms) find some sort of value in it when it comes to evaluating applicants. You can look up all the data and studies you want, but the more important thing is that adcoms care about verbal, or else it would have been taken out of the MCAT after a few years (similar to how the WS is being taken out). Adcoms want the most capable students; the ones who will make it through medical school and become competent physicians. If VR wasn't indicative of that, it wouldn't still be on the MCAT.

 

[gtbROX]

Have shadowed plenty and what is written on patients chart is no more than AP english level. As far as suicidal behavior yes you do have to report but what has that got to do with verbal?
Most of the physicians are extremely intelligent folks but that has little to do with verbal but more to do with their grasp of sciences.

Chart = medicine/science
I never said anything about interpreting it with higher English. Suicidal behavior isn't as obvious as "Hey doc, I'ma commit suicide." A lot of times doctors have to listen to their patients to identify the possibility of things like suicide (other things could be elder/child abuse, misuse of drugs/medication, other behavioral aspects that are harmful to one's health). If you've walked around a hospital you may have noticed security guards/emts outside of certain rooms and/or patients wearing paper gowns. Go find out what the situation is.

 

[red doctober]

Just a couple:

"Performance on the LMCC Part I was significantly correlated with overall undergraduate GPA&#8230;undergraduate science GPA&#8230;MCAT verbal subscore&#8230;as well as MCAT total score." Omitted: r & p values. LMCC from what I understand is the Canadian equivalent of USMLE.

Moruzi, C. K. and G. R. Norman. 2009. Validity of Admissions Measures in Predicting Performance Outcomes: The Contribution of Cognitive and Non-Cognitive Dimensions. Teaching and Learning in Medicine: An International Journal. 14:1, 34-42.

"There were substantial correlations between individual MCAT scores and USMLE Step 1 scores, including the individual Verbal Reasoning scores."

Basco, W. T., D. P. Way, G. E. Gilbert, and A. Hudson. 2002. Undergraduate Institutional MCAT Scores as Predictors of USMLE Step 1 Performance. Academic Medicine. 77:10, S13-S16.

From your source:

"In predicting performance on the medical board licensing examination measures, only the biological sciences and verbal reasoning subtests maintained adjusted medium effect-size values across the first two and three Step examination respectively&#8230; Consideration should be given, however, to weighting or limiting the use of only the biological sciences and verbal reasoning subtests as the two best measures for predicting future medical student success."

Donnon, T., E. O. Paolucci, and C. Violato. 2007. The Predictive Validity of the MCAT for Medical School Performance and Medical Board Licensing Examinations: A Meta-Analysis of the Published Research. Academic Medicine. 82:1, 100-106.

The studies show verbal reasoning's importance in predicting success. On the other side of the spectrum, very few studies show any correlation between writing score and success. What are they doing with the writing section next year? If verbal wasn't important, it would have been out along with writing.

Edit: I just want to reiterate that I don't think that VR is necessarily the most important section, but it is important and should be treated by pre-meds as seriously as BS and PS.

 

[neekzg]

Not really sure what makes you think you know so much better than adcoms about what makes a good medical student. They've gone through the process themselves and they obviously think the verbal section is important--ESPECIALLY if they're changing the MCAT to incorporate more social sciences/humanities material.

It seems to me that you're not going to listen or consider anything that anyone posts unless they explicitly provide experimental data about the correlation between verbal scores and med school success. Plenty of people have provided excellent answers for the "purpose of the verbal section" but you're too bitter to give them any consideration.

You're treating the link you posted as some ultimate medical doctrine, when it definitely isn't. It's one study. Even if it was, nowhere does it say that there's absolutely no correlation between med school success and the verbal section. Even if the correlation is slightly less than the two science sections, they still document a correlation. It does state the writing sample has little significance on the success of a med student, which is probably why they're getting rid of the writing sample pretty soon.

 

[Temperature101]

We should make lawyers become doctors. On a side note...I think they should revoke the medical license of that surgeon who operated on my cousin but cant make a coherent sentence in english. SCIENCE DOES NOT HAVE A LANGUAGE. PERIOD.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

First of all, you asked which student I would prefer and I would have to go with B. The reason being that a 9 and 11 in PS are only 5/52 (9.6%) questions apart, while a 7 and 13 on VR are 14/40 (35%) questions apart. Person A might just have been lucky in getting sections that played to his/or her strengths, while Person B is obviously better than Person A when it comes to verbal. But that's just a weakness in the example. I think your point would be better served in comparing a 7 vs 13 in both VR and PS.

That's all really besides the point though. Honestly, I think the easiest way to score high on the VR section is to read fast (i.e. have plenty of time for the questions).

The easiest way to learn to read fast is to read often. I don't mean papers on pubmed and textbooks, I mean novels or about little interesting tidbits like what you would find in the NY times. Maybe ADCOMS want to select for people who read as a hobby, not just when it's required?

Also, your metanalysis makes a valid point, but as others have pointed out a weak correlation != no correlation.

For example, "The results of bivariate and multiple correlations indicated that scores on the science problems subtest were better predictors of the basic science component of physician education (Part I scores of the NBE) than were the reading scores. Both the science problems and reading skills predicted clinical science scores equally well (Part II scores of the NBE). Reading skills scores contributed more than the science problems subtest in predicting scores on an examination of patient management skills (Part III of the NBE)."


EDIT: Also, please keep in mind that while your performance on the sciences IS important in deciding whether or not you will become a competent physician, admission committees are NOT selecting the best "scientists." They are selecting the best "doctors." The two are pretty different.

As an engineering major, I can tell you that the majority of kids in my upper division EECS/ChemE classes would blow the PS section out of the water (and honestly, the BR section too), but they'd be the first to admit that they'd make awful physicians. At a time when everyone is complaining that the quality of care they receive from their providers is in decline because their doctors just don't seem to be able to look past the charts and "connect" with them, I doubt focusing more on chemistry/physics and less on the humanities is the best course to take...

 

[CaribbeanBlue]

I would be convinced that Student A studied for the MCAT WAYYYYY longer than Student B did. Most people coming out of the sciences classes could score around a 9 in PS/BS just from material they remember. There are numerous people that get over 11+ on VR for their diagnostic based on their reasoning skills.

 

[Narmerguy]

Please, anyone that has read the answers to the VR passages knows that VR is a joke. The correct answer often has less to do with critical reasoning abilities and more to do with making the same assumptions about the topic or author as the testmaker.