What purpose does Verbal serve on MCAT

[Midifelder10]

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If you can perform on physical and biological section why is verbal weighed so heavy. If you are doing fine in other sections you do understand the language, can communicate with the patients. This section has kept some good students who wanted to be in med school from pursuing their dreams. It is so counterproductive and inefficient that people are taking this test multiple times just to get in.

Example A; P 11, V 7, BS 11 29
Example B: P 9, V 13, B 9 31

Who has a better chance of success in Med school? My vote A.

I don't want to start crap but a honest intellectual discussion only.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Try reading your post out loud in a dork voice.

"I quite like my reality"
"Refer to LV's post"
"... composed mostly"
"My reality is one..."

If you ever talk like that in real life, people are going to laugh at you.

They're all gonna laugh at you.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

That picture ended up being too damn big.

 

[Temperature101]

How can someone justify that?
Student A: 12PS....6VR....13BS
Student B: 9PS...14VR....8BS

Why should student B have advantage over student A in the admission process assuming the other aspects of their applications are somewhat equal and both speak fluent english?

 

[red doctober]

How can someone justify that?
Student A: 12PS....6VR....13BS
Student B: 9PS...14VR....8BS

Why should student B have advantage over student A in the admission process assuming the other aspects of their applications are somewhat equal and both speak fluent english?

That wasn't quite the original scenario, but I'd say student B is still more desirable because there are no subsections below 7 (a cut-off that schools actually use when screening.) Time for a new scenario.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

How can someone justify that?
Student A: 12PS....6VR....13BS
Student B: 9PS...14VR....8BS

Why should student B have advantage over student A in the admission process assuming the other aspects of their applications are somewhat equal and both speak fluent english?

Not this again! The first two pages are all about this! It's because the difference between a 6 and 14 is much more substantial than the difference between a 9 or 12 or 8 and 13.

Honestly though, this is a terrible scenario because NEITHER will have an easy time getting into med school.

 

[Midifelder10]

How can someone justify that?
Student A: 12PS....6VR....13BS
Student B: 9PS...14VR....8BS

Why should student B have advantage over student A in the admission process assuming the other aspects of their applications are somewhat equal and both speak fluent english?

That is sort of my point too. 6 vr can definitely interact with patients, clearly understand them and I would pick this candidate above B because he has done well in the two sections that correlate better to success. This is simple scientific approach as I know this person will not struggle.

Candidate B otoh is most like a graduate of school of arts and parties but has definitely read a lot of literature and psychology. Will definitely struggle in science so is not that desirable a candidate.

What most of the people are saying is that candidate B has more logical and critical thinking and they can say with 100% certainity because they feel like saying that. Don't show us any any data to refute that because we don't believe in that but we will keep on saying that.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

That is sort of my point too. 6 vr can definitely interact with patients, clearly understand them and I would pick this candidate above B because he has done well in the two sections that correlate better to success. This is simple scientific approach as I know this person will not struggle.

Candidate B otoh is most like a graduate of school of arts and parties but has definitely read a lot of literature and psychology. Will definitely struggle in science so is not that desirable a candidate.

What most of the people are saying is that candidate B has more logical and critical thinking and they can say with 100% certainity because they feel like saying that. Don't show us any any data to refute that because we don't believe in that but we will keep on saying that.

Anyone who says that doesn't know what they're talking about. I, for one, am saying that the VR section isn't useless so it should stay. Given those two students though, I wouldn't feel 100% comfortable accepting EITHER, so it's kind of a weird choice to be given.

 

[Midifelder10]

Refer to LV's post. Call me argumentative, but this thread is composed mostly of your posts. My reality is one in which people can at least attempt to overcome difficulties in life as opposed to sitting in front of their computers complaining. I quite like my reality. =]

Dude you are getting preachy over here. Mr Stephen Hawkings of verbal please read my posts carefully, I have been emphasizing that verbal is not efficient way of testing, multiple attempts at MCAT by me show that I am dedicated and still doing my best to overcome a difficulty that is not relevant to the final outcome.

How would you feel if after a 100 m dash for 50 m swim they ask Bolt and Michael Phelps to write a personal statement in 500 words why they deserve the gold medal. You can always say hey those are the rules but does that make it relevant to the final outcome? My point is that verbal has very little correlation.

Let me say it slowly for your benefit veeerbaal haaaaaaaas veeeeeery liiiiitle coreeeelllaaatttioooon to fiiiinaaaal oooooutcooooome.

 

[LifeTake2]

Dude you are getting preachy over here. Mr Stephen Hawkings of verbal please read my posts carefully, I have been emphasizing that verbal is not efficient way of testing, multiple attempts at MCAT by me show that I am dedicated and still doing my best to overcome a difficulty that is not relevant to the final outcome.

How would you feel if after a 100 m dash for 50 m swim they ask Bolt and Michael Phelps to write a personal statement in 500 words why they deserve the gold medal. You can always say hey those are the rules but does that make it relevant to the final outcome? My point is that verbal has very little correlation.

Let me say it slowly for your benefit veeerbaal haaaaaaaas veeeeeery liiiiitle coreeeelllaaatttioooon to fiiiinaaaal oooooutcooooome.

Those that have judged the education and ability of the vast majority of practicing physicians in the US have deemed that if you can't get over a 5 on VR you will not make a good physician.

Now what makes a good physician is subjective, but since AMCAS has administered several hundred thousand MCAT exams I'd say they are more qualified than anyone on SDN to make that call. The VR section has existed in it's current form since 1992 and while the MCAT is being revamped, VR is not going anywhere so actual physicians still feel it has value.

Let me say this very slowly for you OP:

iiitttt will haaveee 100% coreeellaatiionn to YYYOOUUURRR fffinnall ooouttcoomee, since until you accept the issue it is your performance and not the test your final outcome will not include a US Medical Degree.

 

[Midifelder10]

Those that have judged the education and ability of the vast majority of practicing physicians in the US have deemed that if you can't get over a 5 on VR you will not make a good physician.

Now what makes a good physician is subjective, but since AMCAS has administered several hundred thousand MCAT exams I'd say they are more qualified than anyone on SDN to make that call. The VR section has existed in it's current form since 1992 and while the MCAT is being revamped, VR is not going anywhere so actual physicians still feel it has value.

Let me say this very slowly for you OP:

iiitttt will haaveee 100% coreeellaatiionn to YYYOOUUURRR fffinnall ooouttcoomee, since until you accept the issue it is your performance and not the test your final outcome will not include a US Medical Degree.

I am well aware of the final outcome.

Since earth was flat for 1000 's years that does not mean it was not round. It took Bugs Bunny to fins earth was round?

 

[psychgirrrl]

That is sort of my point too. 6 vr can definitely interact with patients, clearly understand them and I would pick this candidate above B because he has done well in the two sections that correlate better to success. This is simple scientific approach as I know this person will not struggle.

Candidate B otoh is most like a graduate of school of arts and parties but has definitely read a lot of literature and psychology. Will definitely struggle in science so is not that desirable a candidate.

What most of the people are saying is that candidate B has more logical and critical thinking and they can say with 100% certainity because they feel like saying that. Don't show us any any data to refute that because we don't believe in that but we will keep on saying that.

How do you know applicant B will struggle in the sciences? You can look this up yourself, but I am pretty sure medical school performance is basically the same between candidates who score a 27+ so... I will make it easy for you: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf page 8

Also, I enjoy how you attempt to be all scientific and refute people's claims due to "lack of evidence" and you take huge leaps in logic by saying students who get lower science scores were "partiers". Give me a break, dude.

 

[gtbROX]

Dude you are getting preachy over here. Mr Stephen Hawkings of verbal please read my posts carefully, I have been emphasizing that verbal is not efficient way of testing, multiple attempts at MCAT by me show that I am dedicated and still doing my best to overcome a difficulty that is not relevant to the final outcome.

How would you feel if after a 100 m dash for 50 m swim they ask Bolt and Michael Phelps to write a personal statement in 500 words why they deserve the gold medal. You can always say hey those are the rules but does that make it relevant to the final outcome? My point is that verbal has very little correlation.

Let me say it slowly for your benefit veeerbaal haaaaaaaas veeeeeery liiiiitle coreeeelllaaatttioooon to fiiiinaaaal oooooutcooooome.

Hmmm, maybe if you had practiced more verbal you would be making better analogies right now. In reality your analogy does not work because a doctor (ideally) will be reading, writing, speaking for a good portion of his or her career whereas swimmers swim for the bulk of the career.

And, at least, you're admitting now that verbal has correlation.

 

[Midifelder10]

http://internationalgme.org/Resources/Pubs/Donnon%20et%20al%20%282007%29%20Acad%20Med.pdf

BS, ps and then verbal. Very poor correlation.

Here is my post from few days back where I have mentioned that verbal has poor correlation. Please quit putting words that I did not say.

"Hmmm, maybe if you had practiced more verbal you would be making better analogies right now. In reality your analogy does not work because a doctor (ideally) will be reading, writing, speaking for a good portion of his or her career whereas swimmers swim for the bulk of the career.

And, at least, you're admitting now that verbal has correlation.

 

[Midifelder10]

How do you know applicant B will struggle in the sciences? You can look this up yourself, but I am pretty sure medical school performance is basically the same between candidates who score a 27+ so... I will make it easy for you: https://www.aamc.org/students/download/267622/data/mcatstudentselectionguide.pdf page 8

Also, I enjoy how you attempt to be all scientific and refute people's claims due to "lack of evidence" and you take huge leaps in logic by saying students who get lower science scores were "partiers". Give me a break, dude.

But you do know with 100 % certainity that people with 5 vr will not make good drs?

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

That is sort of my point too. 6 vr can definitely interact with patients, clearly understand them and I would pick this candidate above B because he has done well in the two sections that correlate better to success. This is simple scientific approach as I know this person will not struggle.

It's not the interaction per say. But rather the fact that you'll be listening in for minimal information from your patient and then making a conclusion in your head about what potentially they have. I.e directly using the techniques tested in verbal.

Candidate B otoh is most like a graduate of school of arts and parties but has definitely read a lot of literature and psychology. Will definitely struggle in science so is not that desirable a candidate.

You're making my head hurt with your inept conclusions. Maybe if you would take a formal logic class or bother to read some classical lit you'd improve your verbal score. Furthermore as I've mentioned again, once you hit a 27 you've evened out the field. And Hell, there are plenty of DO students who get 26s and 27s and graduate medical school and don't struggle with the sciences in medical school. So really this entire argument is so flawed that I'm not surprised that you're making 5's in the verbal as you evidently have no global reasoning skills at all.

I mean in all honesty, I feel like way too many Bio majors these days are completely inept at critical thinking and rely completely on memorization because the major completely lacks any critical thinking requisites. And I say this as a Biology major and Psych major,and I can openly say that in my bio classes I don't use half of the critical thinking skills that I do in my psych major. But that makes sense since psych is a major where you're forced to directly think of things from a researchers point of view and have to read research papers.


What most of the people are saying is that candidate B has more logical and critical thinking and they can say with 100% certainity because they feel like saying that. Don't show us any any data to refute that because we don't believe in that but we will keep on saying that.

Because based on many factors, all of which have been mentioned in this thread it functions decently as a logic test.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

But you do know with 100 % certainity that people with 5 vr will not make good drs?

And you know that someone who makes a 9 in PS or BS is going to make a bad doctor? This is a two way street my friend. But generally unless you're ESOL then scoring a 5 means that you have trouble reading something and putting the information together. Which likewise will mean that you will suffer in the experimental/research passages on the BS section.


I mean honestly if you're having trouble with verbal sign up for a formal logic class in your philosophy department, try to read Aristole/ Descarte, and read a crap ton of research papers where you actively try to understand things like purpose, what you can do with the information obtained, etc. Do this for a few months and you'll both improve your logical abilities and do well on VR.

 

[MDforMee]

Is this a premedical forum, or what?

No one has bothered to take a case history of the OP to diagnose this issue properly.

For instance, here's what I'd say to the OP before trashing his lame verbal score:
1. What is your history with standardized tests in reading?
2. What stands out in your childhood about reading?
3. Were you read to as a child?
4. Have previous teachers/professors commented on your writing/reading?
5. Have you ever been diagnosed with a learning disability?

In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low.

You guys shouldn't bag on him.

This thread needs to die.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Is this a premedical forum, or what?

No one has bothered to take a case history of the OP to diagnose this issue properly.

For instance, here's what I'd say to the OP before trashing his lame verbal score:
1. What is your history with standardized tests in reading?
2. What stands out in your childhood about reading?
3. Were you read to as a child?
4. Have previous teachers/professors commented on your writing/reading?
5. Have you ever been diagnosed with a learning disability?

In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low.

You guys shouldn't bag on him.

This thread needs to die.

Except you just kind of implied he's learning disabled for getting a VR score thousands of other premeds get every year (if not lower)...

 

[psychgirrrl]

But you do know with 100 % certainity that people with 5 vr will not make good drs?

Wow, you have a talent concerning extrapolation or an inability to ask non-accusatory questions. I don't know whether the MCAT predicts the quality of a physician. I was under the impression that it predicted success in medical school. Which I have pointed to you with data from the aamc that students with a score of about 27 have the ability to finish med school in 4 years. So basically, whether you score a 27 or a 35 you are good to go.

I know that just because you went to medical school it certainly does not mean you are a "good" doctor. That is very subjective and I am not sure there are real metrics for it out there. My personal opinion is that a good doctor needs to listen to the patient, understand what the patient says, compile the verbal complaints with the data gathered from the lab results and arrive at a accurate diagnosis. They should be able to communicate this diagnosis back to the patient in a way that is comforting and will compel the patient to adhere to the treatment. Those are all important steps that require reading comprehension as well as knowledge of medical concepts.

Something else I know: there is no correlation between a poor science score and being a "partier". Yet, you say that because someone scores low on PS and BS they are more likely to be less concerned with their studies.

It just baffles me that you take such huge leaps in logic when responding to this thread.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Is this a premedical forum, or what?

No one has bothered to take a case history of the OP to diagnose this issue properly.

For instance, here's what I'd say to the OP before trashing his lame verbal score:
1. What is your history with standardized tests in reading?
2. What stands out in your childhood about reading?
3. Were you read to as a child?
4. Have previous teachers/professors commented on your writing/reading?
5. Have you ever been diagnosed with a learning disability?

In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low.

You guys shouldn't bag on him.

This thread needs to die.

No one is trashing his verbal skills. We're just saying that verbal is an important part of the test and yes, it can be improved, it just takes time and training.

 

[psychgirrrl]

Serenade I completely agree with you and everything you wrote within the OP's quote. I have also been treading the waters of both bio and psych worlds and can tell you that psych requires me to critically analyze EVERYTHING. Nothing is given to me. I've been doing research since my sophomore year of college and cognition is not regurgitation. It's thinking about thinking which is incredibly hard and rewarding. Because behavior is multi-faceted we have to approach it from several angles. Who is to say one angle is better than the other? That's why we have lots of repetition of experiments and have to come up with novel methodology to test things. Some of the methodology I've read about is ingenious and required creativity as well as scientific thought and observation. Some of the results I've found/read left my mouth hanging open because I did not expect them at all. When I did research I thought I noticed a difference between a different groups and did statistical analysis said "no". Great lesson on not letting your biases cloud your conclusions!

 

[MDforMee]

No one is trashing his verbal skills. We're just saying that verbal is an important part of the test and yes, it can be improved, it just takes time and training.

If it were me, and I was interested in helping the op to see the importance of the verbal section, I'd advise him to research the matter further and present compelling evidence to do so.

And since it was me, and this was me 2 pages ago before reading any replies to the thread:

"Being a successful physician depends on staying up to date with current research in the various specialties... Being a successful physician also depends on reading TONS of material, and being able to quickly, and accurately make decisions based on said material... Try reading an issue of JAMA, cover to cover, and get back to us."

I'm gonna bounce on outta this whip.

 

[gtbROX]

Here is my post from few days back where I have mentioned that verbal has poor correlation. Please quit putting words that I did not say.

"Hmmm, maybe if you had practiced more verbal you would be making better analogies right now. In reality your analogy does not work because a doctor (ideally) will be reading, writing, speaking for a good portion of his or her career whereas swimmers swim for the bulk of the career.

And, at least, you're admitting now that verbal has correlation.

Verbal = logic is most illogical stuff I have ever heard. Keep on believing that and in toothfairy. Who has been feeding you this crap.

=.=

 

[TipToad]

This section has kept some good students who wanted to be in med school from pursuing their dreams.

I mean, the same can be said for any other section. o_o

ESL student here. My reading/listening scores on standardized tests throughout elementary school were single-digit (<10) percentiles! First VR practice test was a 4 😛 Scored an 11 on the real thing.

Verbal gets a lot of hate, but it's by no means impossible, and I really do think it's important.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Is this a premedical forum, or what?

No one has bothered to take a case history of the OP to diagnose this issue properly.

For instance, here's what I'd say to the OP before trashing his lame verbal score:
1. What is your history with standardized tests in reading?
2. What stands out in your childhood about reading?
3. Were you read to as a child?
4. Have previous teachers/professors commented on your writing/reading?
5. Have you ever been diagnosed with a learning disability?

In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low.

You guys shouldn't bag on him.

This thread needs to die.

The only way to let a thread die, is to comment in it again a bit later on...

If it were me, and I was interested in helping the op to see the importance of the verbal section, I'd advise him to research the matter further and present compelling evidence to do so.

I'm gonna bounce on outta this whip.

Oh thank you for your wise input thread-comissoner. Can you even see us from all the way up there on your pedestal?

 

[MDforMee]

The only way to let a thread die, is to comment in it again a bit later on...



Oh thank you for your wise input thread-comissoner. Can you even see us from all the way up there on your pedestal?

Since when did SDN allow people in clown college to list their SDN status as "medical student"?!?!?

 

[Wakadaka]

haven't read through the whole thread, but i think the VR is a good section because it can't just be memorized. not that the sciences are strictly memorization, but you can get a 10 just by knowing the concepts backwards and forwards i would say.

i actually like the VR because i don't have to feel guilty if i don't know a topic. i feel the field is leveled among people taking it, and its just how you prepare/ your ability.

i had a teacher in high school tell me that the best thing you can do for the SAT was read a lot. so many people i know haven't read a single book that they weren't required to, and i can't really imagine what that must be like. i don't read a ton, but a lot of the books that i have read for fun have helped shape my life, and i feel like it really helped me on the VR section.

i guess what i'm saying is VR isn't as much innate ability, but something that you build up through the course of your life by reading and thinking critically.

 

[Midifelder10]

haven't read through the whole thread, but i think the VR is a good section because it can't just be memorized. not that the sciences are strictly memorization, but you can get a 10 just by knowing the concepts backwards and forwards i would say.

i actually like the VR because i don't have to feel guilty if i don't know a topic. i feel the field is leveled among people taking it, and its just how you prepare/ your ability.

i had a teacher in high school tell me that the best thing you can do for the SAT was read a lot. so many people i know haven't read a single book that they weren't required to, and i can't really imagine what that must be like. i don't read a ton, but a lot of the books that i have read for fun have helped shape my life, and i feel like it really helped me on the VR section.

i guess what i'm saying is VR isn't as much innate ability, but something that you build up through the course of your life by reading and thinking critically.

True - If you have read a lot of books you do better in verbal. If you have solved lot of physics problems and don't do better in verbal does not mean you are not logical thinker. Physics in my opinion is lot more challenging.

 

[Midifelder10]

Is this a premedical forum, or what?

No one has bothered to take a case history of the OP to diagnose this issue properly.

For instance, here's what I'd say to the OP before trashing his lame verbal score:
1. What is your history with standardized tests in reading?
2. What stands out in your childhood about reading?
3. Were you read to as a child?
4. Have previous teachers/professors commented on your writing/reading?
5. Have you ever been diagnosed with a learning disability?

In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low.

You guys shouldn't bag on him.

This thread needs to die.

Yes I do have a learning disability, it is that I have gone thru the whole thread and learned nothing.

Let me summarize so far:

(1) Verbal = Logic, no proof so far but I told you so.take my word.

(2) I present multiple papers showing verbal has the least correlation all I get is no it is not.

(3) I do get some info that verbal helps in clinical dealings with data, I sort of agree with that.

(4) Not a single data showing a poor verbal score leads to poor performance in med school.

(5) personally I know of 3 cases with VR = 5,5,6 got admitted and were in middle of their graduating class. Their opinion was that verbal is pure BS.

(6)Hot air = rhetoric != data

Now it is getting below the belt with learning disability, next step name calling.

 

[Renaissance Man]

Since when did SDN allow people in clown college to list their SDN status as "medical student"?!?!?

When did pre-meds start putting the title MD into their username before they have been accepted anywhere?

 

[Midifelder10]

And you know that someone who makes a 9 in PS or BS is going to make a bad doctor? This is a two way street my friend. But generally unless you're ESOL then scoring a 5 means that you have trouble reading something and putting the information together. Which likewise will mean that you will suffer in the experimental/research passages on the BS section.


I mean honestly if you're having trouble with verbal sign up for a formal logic class in your philosophy department, try to read Aristole/ Descarte, and read a crap ton of research papers where you actively try to understand things like purpose, what you can do with the information obtained, etc. Do this for a few months and you'll both improve your logical abilities and do well on VR.

Q If you get VR = 4, BS =11 does that mean you don't understand the language?

 

[Midifelder10]

Wow, you have a talent concerning extrapolation or an inability to ask non-accusatory questions. I don't know whether the MCAT predicts the quality of a physician. I was under the impression that it predicted success in medical school. Which I have pointed to you with data from the aamc that students with a score of about 27 have the ability to finish med school in 4 years. So basically, whether you score a 27 or a 35 you are good to go.

I know that just because you went to medical school it certainly does not mean you are a "good" doctor. That is very subjective and I am not sure there are real metrics for it out there. My personal opinion is that a good doctor needs to listen to the patient, understand what the patient says, compile the verbal complaints with the data gathered from the lab results and arrive at a accurate diagnosis. They should be able to communicate this diagnosis back to the patient in a way that is comforting and will compel the patient to adhere to the treatment. Those are all important steps that require reading comprehension as well as knowledge of medical concepts.

Something else I know: there is no correlation between a poor science score and being a "partier". Yet, you say that because someone scores low on PS and BS they are more likely to be less concerned with their studies.

It just baffles me that you take such huge leaps in logic when responding to this thread.

I don't know where you went to school but most of the places sciences and engg are much more harder than liberal arts. So it is safe to assume these kids work harder and there is no need to get offended with that statement. If we can't agree with this basic premise than we could never ever agree on anything.

 

[ash286]

Also for why they would not like a breakdown of scores like BS 12 V 5 PS 11, I think they want to see that if you are told you need to prepare and do well on 3 relatively different types of test sections that you can do that... kind of like when we applied to college, good colleges wanted to see good grades and test scores in math, english, science, history, etc. even if you were applying for a specific major.

 

[psychgirrrl]

I don't know where you went to school but most of the places sciences and engg are much more harder than liberal arts. So it is safe to assume these kids work harder and there is no need to get offended with that statement. If we can't agree with this basic premise than we could never ever agree on anything.

Hon, I don't doubt you spend countless hours memorizing equations and solving mathematical problems. I am a Bio/Psych student and have had my fair share of classes taken by Chem, Physics and some engineering students too (math).

Have you ever heard of the theory of multiple intelligences? You forget to see the value in the vast amount of talent present within our population. Just because you aren't particularly good at verbal reasoning skills it doesn't meant that you are a useless person and will never be doctor. Also, just because I am good at people related and linguistic tasks it doesn't mean I am not intelligent (or lazy or that I party too much).

I can do math and science perfectly well. Growing up, I had a lot of difficulty in math and honestly when I really decided on medicine I chose to stop telling myself math is stupid and tried to give it a shot. I did and now I am happy I did because I appreciate it in a new way and realize that it is necessary to get me to medical school. Am I ever going to find limits in medical school? Probably not. Am I going to be asked to explain quantum theory? Probably not. I might have to do some kinetics and thermodynamics in biochem, but is that clinically relevant? Not really.

The point I am trying to make is that you need to stop suggesting that people in other majors are stupid or partiers because they have a skill you do not yet have. I am sure you are perfectly capable of learning it if you give yourself the chance. Right now, your mentality is impeding you from doing so. At first you were questioning the validity of verbal and when others explained it to you you refuse to acknowledge it and now your argument has degraded into "Social sciences and liberal arts are stupid! Shakespeare is dumb! Engineering students are smart!"

If your goal is to become a doctor, you need to suck it up and deal with the fact that you are expected to do decent in verbal reasoning. You question the validity of social sciences and verbal on the MCAT but the AAMC has decided to include a whole new section JUST ON SOCIAL SCIENCES. Get over it, it's one of the many hoops you will have to jump through to get into med school.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

True - If you have read a lot of books you do better in verbal. If you have solved lot of physics problems and don't do better in verbal does not mean you are not logical thinker. Physics in my opinion is lot more challenging.

If you do a lot of reading, you'll develop new cognitive patterns that are associated with higher order cognition and logic. Things tested by the Vr section.

Furthermore if you do a lot of math and physics you'll probably also be a more logical person as both utalize similar cognitive and neural pathways and can be logically derived from very simple assumptions.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Q If you get VR = 4, BS =11 does that mean you don't understand the language?

Let's make this a learning experience. I am the author of the passage that you just failed to comprehend entirely. I stated that if you score a 5 on the VR it means that you're reading the language, but making incorrect conclusions from it, case and point this post.

However I'm going to say that it's probably going to be impossible for you to score an 11 on the BS if your verbal comprehension is at the level of a 4. You simply will read the biology passages and not understand implied facts, relations, etc.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yes I do have a learning disability, it is that I have gone thru the whole thread and learned nothing.

Let me summarize so far:

(1) Verbal = Logic, no proof so far but I told you so.take my word.

There's plenty of evidence to explain why verbal tests logic and how it is relevant.


(2) I present multiple papers showing verbal has the least correlation all I get is no it is not.

What's your point? I can show you a paper that shows that obesity by itself does not lead to decreased longitivity. You're drawing at straws here buddy, you're trying to say that it is meaningless because it is not correlated with something that it potentially is not meant to be correlated with at all, or because of the fact that after a 27 score the relationship becomes minimal for all subscores.

(3) I do get some info that verbal helps in clinical dealings with data, I sort of agree with that.

k

(4) Not a single data showing a poor verbal score leads to poor performance in med school.

Mostly because there are few poor verbal scores in medical school. That being said a below 27 mcat = higher chance of failing out, failing the USMLE, redoing a year.

(5) personally I know of 3 cases with VR = 5,5,6 got admitted and were in middle of their graduating class. Their opinion was that verbal is pure BS.

Anecdotes =/= statistics. But again, I'm going to outright say that there are more pressing factors, maybe even mediating factors more important in expressing preference.

(6)Hot air = rhetoric != data

k

Now it is getting below the belt with learning disability, next step name calling.

..

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I just think it is unfair that students who wish to go to medical school in the US need to deal with the VR while, people who take the USMLE from other countries have a much easier time. They should add a VR section to the USMLE for people from other countries that did not have an MCAT system lol! This is coming from someone who recently immigrated from another country, so English is not my first language. I have accepted I need to deal with VR and and I will work towards getting better but, I do think the system is crap. People do get into great residency programs based on their USMLE scores and many of them are not that great at English. The MCAT tests reasoning and I feel the PS and BS sections are adequate for that.

There is leniency for ESOL students, etc. But no, the USMLE is already a 8.5 hour test and it includes questions that are structured far more complexly but in the same manner of logical deduction that is common in the verbal section of the mcat.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I don't know where you went to school but most of the places sciences and engg are much more harder than liberal arts. So it is safe to assume these kids work harder and there is no need to get offended with that statement. If we can't agree with this basic premise than we could never ever agree on anything.

Generally speaking engineering and physical science is significantly harder than liberal arts. However Biology in my opinion in many situations is either a little bit more difficult or at the same difficulty as psychology and is far easier than philosophy.

But it all depends on personal strengths, I dislike writing excessive papers so philosophy would destroy me. Likewise I don't enjoy mathematics ( I'm good at it, but I'd rather do other things). Likewise most biology majors would fail in upper level philosophy courses because they lack critical thinking skills and an ability to write proficiently.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Oh God, the "sciences > liberal arts" argument just opened up a whole different can of worms. A can pre-allo opens 7378475 times a year.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Yeah your right but, at least they get go the point where they can take the USMLE lol!😀

Well, it's not like they're going to have an easy time even if they do well on the USMLE.

 

[MDforMee]

When did pre-meds start putting the title MD into their username before they have been accepted anywhere?

Don't get all serious on me, sugar princess.

Looks like I was onto something, though. OP has a learning disability.

People on here want to be doctors, but haven't developed the mental faculties it takes to be one, seems to me.

The shoe will be on the other foot soon enough.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Don't get all serious on me, sugar princess.

Looks like I was onto something, though. OP has a learning disability.

People on here want to be doctors, but haven't developed the mental faculties it takes to be one, seems to me.

The shoe will be on the other foot soon enough.

Mr. Mighty Pre-med should have realized by now that people don't take too kindly to being told they have a learning disability simply because they scored in the 25th percentile of all test takers.

Less pseudo-doctoring, more sensitivity for OPs situation please.

 

[MDforMee]

Mr. Mighty Pre-med should have realized by now that people don't take too kindly to being told they have a learning disability simply because they scored in the 25th percentile of all test takers.

Less pseudo-doctoring, more sensitivity for OPs situation please.

Your guns are pointed the wrong way, friendo.

I've been sticking up for the OP throughout this thread because I suspected that he had a learning disability.

You've got it backwards.

Want proof? Here's my quote from up top:
"In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low. You guys shouldn't bag on him."

If you're so quick to blame others, then do yourself a favor and get your facts straight beforehand.

 

[LuciusVorenus]

Your guns are pointed the wrong way, friendo.

I've been sticking up for the OP throughout this thread because I suspected that he had a learning disability.

You've got it backwards.

Want proof? Here's my quote from up top:
"In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low. You guys shouldn't bag on him."

If you're so quick to blame others, then do yourself a favor and get your facts straight beforehand.

He seemed pretty pissed off by your statement, so I don't see the point in constantly repeating it is what I'm saying.

"Yes I do have a learning disability, it is that I have gone thru the whole thread and learned nothing.

Let me summarize so far:

[...]

Now it is getting below the belt with learning disability, next step name calling."

 

[Midifelder10]

Your guns are pointed the wrong way, friendo.

I've been sticking up for the OP throughout this thread because I suspected that he had a learning disability.

You've got it backwards.

Want proof? Here's my quote from up top:
"In my opinion, if the OP has done what he says he has, then there are reasons we're unaware of as to why his verbal score is low. You guys shouldn't bag on him."

If you're so quick to blame others, then do yourself a favor and get your facts straight beforehand.

So everyone who is an ESL has learning disability?
Everyone where they don't speak english at home has learning disability?
This is rich.
Anyone who can get comfortable double digits in biology with taking only 1 into course but not crack 5 in verbal is LD?
Finally I have learned something that there are people who so conveniently ignore data, not willing to present any data but some random stuff will resort to name calling.
Try taking 15 cr hrs of organic, circuits, electro mag,and lit with class curve at C and then come back and call others LD. That work load is a soul crushing experience.

 

[Midifelder10]

Generally speaking engineering and physical science is significantly harder than liberal arts. However Biology in my opinion in many situations is either a little bit more difficult or at the same difficulty as psychology and is far easier than philosophy.

But it all depends on personal strengths, I dislike writing excessive papers so philosophy would destroy me. Likewise I don't enjoy mathematics ( I'm good at it, but I'd rather do other things). Likewise most biology majors would fail in upper level philosophy courses because they lack critical thinking skills and an ability to write proficiently.

Bio for sure is difficult too, can't comment on philosphy or psychology as there was no requirement to take that.

 

[Midifelder10]

Don't get all serious on me, sugar princess.

Looks like I was onto something, though. OP has a learning disability.

People on here want to be doctors, but haven't developed the mental faculties it takes to be one, seems to me.

The shoe will be on the other foot soon enough.

How do you know that and where is the proof. Repeating it over and over again does not make it true. You are an extremely annoying and immature person. You want to repeatedly talk about stuff without proof. Let me repeat it, is there any proof that verbal tests for anything that BS and PS dont reveal? Please spend some time finding a study and we can discuss that.

 

[Midifelder10]

Wow, you have a talent concerning extrapolation or an inability to ask non-accusatory questions. I don't know whether the MCAT predicts the quality of a physician. I was under the impression that it predicted success in medical school. Which I have pointed to you with data from the aamc that students with a score of about 27 have the ability to finish med school in 4 years. So basically, whether you score a 27 or a 35 you are good to go.

I am better than 27 with 5 in VR according to schools I am not good to go.

I know that just because you went to medical school it certainly does not mean you are a "good" doctor. That is very subjective and I am not sure there are real metrics for it out there. My personal opinion is that a good doctor needs to listen to the patient, understand what the patient says, compile the verbal complaints with the data gathered from the lab results and arrive at a accurate diagnosis. They should be able to communicate this diagnosis back to the patient in a way that is comforting and will compel the patient to adhere to the treatment. Those are all important steps that require reading comprehension as well as knowledge of medical concepts.

Most of the time when I go to physicians they have no time to talk, it takes them 30 sec to make a diagnosis, they rely more on blood work and other results, half the time they don't even want to talk. this talking stuff, way overrated.

Something else I know: there is no correlation between a poor science score and being a "partier". Yet, you say that because someone scores low on PS and BS they are more likely to be less concerned with their studies.

By and large science students have a much harder work load, you may be an exception but that is predominantly the case.

It just baffles me that you take such huge leaps in logic when responding to this thread.

No jump in logic by me just published papers.

Go get some studies instead of hot air. You have a very closed mind please please open it and please let some sunshine in.

 

[7175pank]

I heard that VR has a higher correlation with USMLE 1 scores than does PS but is slightly lower than BS. I read a study on it a while ago but usmle world had something to say about it: http://www.usmleworld.com/Step1/step1_facts.aspx

I think of VR as more of a logic and inference test over anything else. I would imagine it to be hard to argue that being able to integrate large amounts of information isn't a useful skill for med school.