FirstMANdown

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I applied for the ARMY PGY1 residency program as a Civilian this year. Match came out on Dec. 18th for 2009 starting year. I did not match!!??? How is this possible if the ARMY has already a huge shortage of doctors. Went through the phase 1 & 2 physical exam and height/weight and passed them all and my application was ready to be sent out to Kentucky for my potential commission.
I am confused, I was approved to apply and was placed on the merit list. Had passed step 1 & 2ck/cs, graduated from medical school within the United States of America and am a born American citizen with no prior criminal or drug convictions. This is absolutely a lot of horse s**t. I am not happy about this at all.
I have just recently read an article that was widely released from the pentagon stating that they have a huge shortage of physician residents in the military and now for the 2010 year they would be excepting visa status medical grads for residency. How the hell could this be if they wont let a guy like me get excepted. They had more positions available then they had resident applications this year!!! I am so damn mad about this. I am considering taking the next step and writing a letter of complaint to many people of higher positions. This is just not right or fair! Since when can the ARMY be so damn picky with an already short staff of physicians??? Bunch of morons!
 

RussianJoo

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I applied for the ARMY PGY1 residency program as a Civilian this year. Match came out on Dec. 18th for 2009 starting year. I did not match!!??? How is this possible if the ARMY has already a huge shortage of doctors. Went through the phase 1 & 2 physical exam and height/weight and passed them all and my application was ready to be sent out to Kentucky for my potential commission.
I am confused, I was approved to apply and was placed on the merit list. Had passed step 1 & 2ck/cs, graduated from medical school within the United States of America and am a born American citizen with no prior criminal or drug convictions. This is absolutely a lot of horse s**t. I am not happy about this at all.
I have just recently read an article that was widely released from the pentagon stating that they have a huge shortage of physician residents in the military and now for the 2010 year they would be excepting visa status medical grads for residency. How the hell could this be if they wont let a guy like me get excepted. They had more positions available then they had resident applications this year!!! I am so damn mad about this. I am considering taking the next step and writing a letter of complaint to many people of higher positions. This is just not right or fair! Since when can the ARMY be so damn picky with an already short staff of physicians??? Bunch of morons!
What were your stats? did you pass step1 and 2 on the first attempt? What residency were you applying for?
 
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crazybrancato

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now for the 2010 year they would be excepting visa status medical grads for residency. How the hell could this be if they wont let a guy like me get excepted.
they didn't accept you b/c you're a dipsh!t moron who doesn't know the difference between accept and except . are you sure you're U.S. born?

You need to give a little more info (like what/where program you applied to, stats, etc) if you want help from this group. If you're more forthcoming, people here tend to be very helpful.

(Nice animation AFM4, you code that up yourself? Impressive.)
 

DogFaceMedic

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You need to give a little more info (like what/where program you applied to, stats, etc) if you want help from this group. If you're more forthcoming, people here tend to be very helpful.
What and where did you apply, and stats? The shortage is in specific areas. There is a limited need for pediatric-neurosurgical-urologists. But, come on down for family, medicine, peds, and psych.

Also, giant possibility of a screw up by OTSG with the paperwork. If so, you can use the rebuttal system. THe admin asst in the GME office is new to the position, and could have failed to input all documents, so your file may not have been seen.

Let us know details, and we can help.
 

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Perrotfish

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Highlights: Six years to complete medical school, with multiple retakes on USMLE Steps I and II, dropped after 8 months of PGY-1 training in FM in 2007.
Hooah

Still, I'm sort of surprised they couldn't match him into some sort of FM residency, if only for an intern year
 

DogFaceMedic

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Went through the phase 1 & 2 physical exam and height/weight and passed... Had passed step 1 & 2ck/cs, graduated from medical school within the United States of America and am a born American citizen with no prior criminal or drug convictions.
Highlights: Six years to complete medical school, with multiple retakes on USMLE Steps I and II, dropped after 8 months of PGY-1 training in FM in 2007.
A stellar CV I must say, and what with that can-do attitude the Army really is missing out on something special.

 

haujun

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I applied for the ARMY PGY1 residency program as a Civilian this year. Match came out on Dec. 18th for 2009 starting year. I did not match!!??? How is this possible if the ARMY has already a huge shortage of doctors. Went through the phase 1 & 2 physical exam and height/weight and passed them all and my application was ready to be sent out to Kentucky for my potential commission.
I am confused, I was approved to apply and was placed on the merit list. Had passed step 1 & 2ck/cs, graduated from medical school within the United States of America and am a born American citizen with no prior criminal or drug convictions. This is absolutely a lot of horse s**t. I am not happy about this at all.
I have just recently read an article that was widely released from the pentagon stating that they have a huge shortage of physician residents in the military and now for the 2010 year they would be excepting visa status medical grads for residency. How the hell could this be if they wont let a guy like me get excepted. They had more positions available then they had resident applications this year!!! I am so damn mad about this. I am considering taking the next step and writing a letter of complaint to many people of higher positions. This is just not right or fair! Since when can the ARMY be so damn picky with an already short staff of physicians??? Bunch of morons!
Every year some positions go unfulfilled for many reasons and I've seen military boads turn down the applicants even for open position. Both civilian and military face shortage of doctors. I understand and feel your frustration. However, I see pattern of your academic shortcomings from you medical school into residency. Although people may want to offer you the benefit of doubt it just hard to ignore multiple failures leading to this. Take this time to understand and fix your underlying problem before moving on. Do consider seeking professional help if applicable. Good luck.
 

orbitsurgMD

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I applied for the ARMY PGY1 residency program as a Civilian this year . . .
I am confused, I was approved to apply and was placed on the merit list. Had passed step 1 & 2ck/cs, graduated from medical school within the United States of America and am a born American citizen with no prior criminal or drug convictions. This is absolutely a lot of horse s**t. I am not happy about this at all.
. . . I am so damn mad about this. I am considering taking the next step and writing a letter of complaint to many people of higher positions. This is just not right or fair! Since when can the ARMY be so damn picky with an already short staff of physicians??? Bunch of morons!
So there are more issues. An unfortunate but repeated pattern of academic difficulties. That is not an insignificant issue, when it becomes a pattern. Failing Step I is not the end of the world, but the situation becomes more of a problem when those failures are repetitive and prevent you from graduating in the normal period of time.

The history here is not erased with graduation. Program directors cannot provide remedial assistance to you for your Step 3 or your in-service boards. They certainly hope you will not only study but succeed with a good passing score on your first try. They want you to succeed, and they want their program to reflect good quality teaching by having good quality scores. Program directors don't look good when their residents score poorly and a demonstrated pattern of failing at standardized tests begs issues of inadequate learning and inadequate fund of knowledge. There isn't a six-year plan for residency, if you fail there, you probably will be fired or not re-hired for the following year. That creates potential organizational problems for a program director--finding a replacement mid-program, gaps in rotation coverage, all things that they want to avoid. Program directors have to be accountable to the ACGME and the specialty society. Sometimes accepting an applicant with a troubled past vice going un-filled is seen as the greater of evils.

Anymore, it is not possible to explain away testing deficiencies by saying "I don't test well." That much should be obvious. But pretending that poor testing isn't related to fund of knowledge or potential professional difficulties is just not rational. Sure, there may be examples of students who have high scores who don't show good clinical judgment, but in my experience, those cases are rare, and in any case, irrelevant. We should not presume that the reverse is true, that lower-scoring students do any better.

I hope you can match somewhere. I think the suggestion above that you seek professional evaluation, possibly from an educational psychologist, is a good idea--both for your own benefit and that of those for whom you will be working. If I were a program director who had your application and had not yet excluded you as a candidate, I certainly would want to know what measures you had taken to gain insight into your pattern of difficulty in passing your board examinations.
 

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. . . I am so damn mad about this. I am considering taking the next step and writing a letter of complaint to many people of higher positions.
In terms of practical advice, DON'T DO THAT.
 
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i want out

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In terms of practical advice, DON'T DO THAT.
Go ahead and write to whomever you would like regardless of their position.

As a Civilian you have the right to tilt at whatever windmill you choose.

With your stats as reported above, you will be unlikely to get anywhere with any type of attitude, other than asking if perhaps your application was overlooked.

It wouldn't be the first time that an application has been overlooked.

You also wouldn't be the first problem child the .mil has taken on knowing full well that they were inheriting a train wreck (usually done with enlisted ranks for someone that was going to go to jail if they didn't join.).

You also should look at demonstrating some pattern of improvement as well as perhaps a reason (preferably one you can do something about, eg learning disability), for past performance.

Good luck, and then read this board some more, and see if maybe God (or your higher power of choice) is trying to tell you something, with the rejection.

i want out(of IRR)
 

IgD

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We had an individual who really wanted a residency position basically come work as a volunteer for several months. She got to know the faculty well and built up trust with everyone. She had good credentials though. Wonder if something like this would help the poster.
 

DogFaceMedic

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You also wouldn't be the first problem child the .mil has taken on knowing full well that they were inheriting a train wreck (usually done with enlisted ranks for someone that was going to go to jail if they didn't join.).
The "go to jail or join the army" volunteer usually have very well designed job titles. Such as: Point-man, bullet-catcher, mine-detector, cannon-fodder...
 

FirstMANdown

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The sad thing is that everything in medicine is judged by perfectionism. My rapport with patients have always been very outstanding. My clinical knowledge is very fair. I have been doing observer ship for 3 months now and will continue to do so for Ob-gyn, IM, and Surgery to brush up my basic skills and knowledge. Yes, I have had some academic setbacks such as a few retakes in medical school...not clinical but the shelf exam. Also, Step 1 & 2 posed some difficulties, but I have never been a good test takes with these type of exams. Positives--> passed Medical school without being kicked out. Passed Step 1 & 2ck/cs. also, plan to take and pass step 3 and continue observer ship for a prolonged period of time.
Going in medical school I was always thought that C=MD, but that just goes as far as a useless medical degree. What do I do now, take step 3 and pass? then just stop and look for a job in teaching? Should have just dropped out of Medical school if I knew this was going to happen.
The sad thing is that I was trained clinically in the US during medical school. I have nothing against FMG but it sure seems messed up that an FMG with little to no US clinical experience can be "accepted" into a US training residency program strictly based on high usmle step 1 and 2 board scores. The whole system of choosing doctors is just not right. If I passed my step 3 would that not suggest that I have enough clinical in-site to treat patients effectively???? Is that not what medicine is all about anyways. So what if I had multiple retakes on step 1 & 2. I still passed them. that has to count for something other than posterity.
Anyways thanks for the brutal criticism and help. I take it all in to account, good or bad. Just want say Thanks.
 

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I'm still not clear what happened with your first FM residency. Why were you dismissed? Also, how are you affiliated with the Army?
 

RugbyJC

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The "go to jail or join the army" volunteer usually have very well designed job titles. Such as: Point-man, bullet-catcher, mine-detector, cannon-fodder...
And then we see them on inpatient psych when they say "I would rather kill myself than go to work" and we are forced to believe their situational suicidality...
 
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orbitsurgMD

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The sad thing is that everything in medicine is judged by perfectionism. My rapport with patients have always been very outstanding. My clinical knowledge is very fair. I have been doing observer ship for 3 months now and will continue to do so for Ob-gyn, IM, and Surgery to brush up my basic skills and knowledge. Yes, I have had some academic setbacks such as a few retakes in medical school...not clinical but the shelf exam. Also, Step 1 & 2 posed some difficulties, but I have never been a good test takes with these type of exams. Positives--> passed Medical school without being kicked out. Passed Step 1 & 2ck/cs. also, plan to take and pass step 3 and continue observer ship for a prolonged period of time.
Going in medical school I was always thought that C=MD, but that just goes as far as a useless medical degree. What do I do now, take step 3 and pass? then just stop and look for a job in teaching? Should have just dropped out of Medical school if I knew this was going to happen.
The sad thing is that I was trained clinically in the US during medical school. I have nothing against FMG but it sure seems messed up that an FMG with little to no US clinical experience can be "accepted" into a US training residency program strictly based on high usmle step 1 and 2 board scores. The whole system of choosing doctors is just not right. If I passed my step 3 would that not suggest that I have enough clinical in-site to treat patients effectively???? Is that not what medicine is all about anyways. So what if I had multiple retakes on step 1 & 2. I still passed them. that has to count for something other than posterity.
Anyways thanks for the brutal criticism and help. I take it all in to account, good or bad. Just want say Thanks.
I think you aren't giving enough regard to the FMGs that come to train here. Many are outstanding, having graduated at their own national equivalent top-tier schools and often with honors. Some have done residencies in their own countries before migrating to the USA. They should not be seen as inferior to US graduates. And many do very well on the USMLE.

As for being a C-student, I hope every medical student worthy of the title hopes to do better than that. And how do you separate deficient fund of knowledge from poor test performance? Doing well on clinical rotations is only part of the education; developing a fund of knowledge you can call upon to practice is another, developing rapport with patients by good listening and observation, another. You can't expect to fulfill the requirements without attention to all aspects of your education as a physician. Acquiring a body of knowledge you can summon on testing is just part of what is expected. You can't say you didn't know that; you took the MCATs.

FMGs are "accepted" on the basis of more than their USMLE scores; they do grade students in other countries. I would feel a whole lot better as a PD taking an FMG with excellent USMLE scores and a solid medical school record than an American graduate with a marginal academic record and poor scores. I think I would vote for the FMG every time. You should not think that because you have graduated from a U.S. school that you are entitled to a place over an eligible FMG.

I wish you well, but from your post, I am wondering that you really don't have the insight into your situation you should have. I think you would be helping yourself if you inquired a little more.
 

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NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO, NO!
I am always surprised at how civil people are about posts like this. I usually strive to maintain a civil tone to all my posts as I am fully cognizant of the non-anonymity of the forum and I like it when SDN seems like an welcoming community. But in this case, I think only TIC and DogFace have approached the appropriate level of scorn that this post should engender. So I say no. While milmed is far from perfect, our service members deserve far better than you. You have failed at medicine. Move on. The world of medicine is not judged entirely on perfectionism, but it is judged on striving to do what is best for the patient. Everything in your post reeks of someone who does everything [email protected]$$ed ("My clinical knowledge is very fair"!?!?! How comforting for your patients) but expects that the "system" owes you some kind of favor (Why? Because your a nice guy? Because you have good rapport? Plenty of doctors with "very fair" [some with even very good] knowledge have killed patients that they have good rapport with).
I assume you applied to family practice. Imagine being on the other end of this conversation: "Hi, Airman/Soldier/Marine/Sailor Skippy. I see you've brought your child to see me today for some concerns. I see that she is the apple of your eye and the center of your universe. Well fear not! I have an MD/DO. It may have taken me two more years to get it than most others, and I had to take a year off to pass the second step of my board exams (if you don't know what those are, they are meant to assess for the development of an adequate fund of knowledge garnered in medical school) and, for that matter, I failed both steps on the first try, and barely passed on the second try (I know, a year off to study, and barely passed! Sheesh. **wink, wink*), but I got that degree eventually and it looks great on my wall and should inspire confidence in you. I'm seeing your precious one here in my resident continuity clinic as I learn the art and science of my profession. Don't worry. I want you to know that I did reasonably well in my clinical years of medical school and just because while I was a first year resident somewhere else I was told that I was functioning at the level of a beginning 3rd year medical student and I was subsequently fired from that residency, my firing was due to personality conflicts and people being too focused on "perfectionism" in the world of medicine (nothing to do with me, ya' know). Butch'ya know why you should feel confident in my abilities to take care of your child? Because I'm an American! Not just any American, but an American who never got busted for doing drugs or any other criminal act. And I went to a real honestagoodness American medical school where I barely eked out my degree. But it could have been worse. You could have had Habib from India who went to one of those Indian medical schools taking care of you. Yeah, he was probably was tops to get into med school and was probably already trained and licensed when he joined the military, but lets face it. I'm a heckuva nice guy and you can understand everything I say, right? [20 minutes later] Well I see your daughter's white count is a little low and her H&H is on the low side of normal but her red cell indices are a little off, and her platelets are a little low. What to make of that? Well, they're only a little low, I think we're OK. Have a fine Air Force/Army/Navy/Marine Corps/Coast Guard Day!...
Here's where I'm going to try to be nice again (try, at least). Look, I think anyone would objectively look at you and feel that you are at the end of the line. Medicine was a failed experiment for you. It sucks that it was probably an expensive experiment, but others who have done better than you have paid that price as well. You need to grow up, develop some insight, and move on. You've failed at one experiment, but it doesn't mean you will fail at others (unless you approach everything as [email protected]$$ed and with as little self-evaluation as you have medicine). Truly I wish you luck. But I would be scared to ever let you take care of one of my patients, much less my child or loved one.
 
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randomdude

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am considering taking the next step and writing a letter of complaint to many people of higher positions... This is just not right or fair! Bunch of morons!
Dude...I didn't believe this until I read it.

It's not fair? IT'S NOT FAIR!?!? Seriously? Morons? Really? Who are you going to call? What are you going to say? "Hey Mr Congressman, it took me 50% more time to pass medical school in addition to twice the attempts to pass my boards (which I haven't completely finished taking yet) and it's not fair the military won't take me"? You were planning to take Step III in March 08. I'm just curious, what happened?

You resorted to the military as a last ditch effort and you expected them to fall over wanting you just because you're an American med school grad? That's sad. Listen to the advice from others above.

Our military deserves the best taking care of them and someone who joins because they want to be in the military to take care of our Heros. Unfortunately, you are not even close to either of those two criteria. Sorry, but that's the truth. My friends in med school in the military worked their arses off - they planned their 4th year early for rotations, took Step II very early because of the military match (and passed!) and they did well. I'm living the life right now as an attending. Where are they? Iraq and Afghanistan. They sacrifice a lot, whether they were planning on it or not. It's disgusting to see that you want to join this admirable group of physicians because you couldn't make it anywhere else and expect the military ACcept you into a residency just because they need physicians and that you are an American grad. I'll take the doc with the heavy accent any day.

You need the insight (not 'in-site' - funny, it's ironic that for an 'american grad' you make a lot of grammatical mistakes) to realize that "planning and passing Step III" is not a "positive" - it is an EXPECTATION. Are you expecting a cookie and a gold star from programs for having that goal YEARS after finally graduating medical school?

I know you're in an unfortunately situation. Like everyone else, I wish you luck. But I don't want you taking care of our Heros, much less anyone else. I know it's harsh, but it's the truth and you know it. Not only because of your track record, but your blaming of everyone who you claim isn't helping you (your med school for not getting you a residency, your FP program for failing you FROM THE BEGINNING, etc). Stop blaming others, stop calling people morons. Look at yourself. Fix that first. Good luck.
 
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colbgw02

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^Paragraphs please.

FMGs are "accepted" on the basis of more than their USMLE scores; they do grade students in other countries. I would feel a whole lot better as a PD taking an FMG with excellent USMLE scores and a solid medical school record than an American graduate with a marginal academic record and poor scores. I think I would vote for the FMG every time. You should not think that because you have graduated from a U.S. school that you are entitled to a place over an eligible FMG.
Not to hijack the thread, but I disagree with the bolded statement, to a point. Be it civilian or military, U.S. tax dollars fund our residency training. A U.S. citizen should therefore have some expectation of preferential selection for residency training. Medical schools do this all the time vis-a-vis in-state students, and it makes perfect sense. I'm not saying that a US degree makes it an automatic, but I inferred from your post that residencies should choose the best applicants with consideration of USG/FMG/IMG status. Perhaps I'm reading into it too much.

As to the OP, I have very little sympathy. I am continually amazed at the incompetency of people who make it through the system on schedule without having to repeat or re-do. For better or worse, seeing someone have their training extended through academic failures is a gigantic red flag to me.
 
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FirstMANdown

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Just to make one minor correction on some of the feed back I have been getting. I did not get fired from residency, I resigned because of upper staff harassment and I was not the first one attacked. There has been others who were let go, fired or resigned from this program and one was re-selected to another program and is due to graduate from there residency this year. My chief resident told me along with all the 3rd year residents at that time that they all felt I was at the level of a training resident in which I was needed to be. Hardly ever worked with the PD but he had very strong opinions about me, I rectified these issue..at least that was the feed back I got from all the Md's who worked closely with me. Also, I saved one particular patients life when she was becoming very hypoxic while I was solo during a night float. And no I had never killed a patient nor did I ever put one in harms way while doing night float or any type of patient w/u for that matter, and I did many. However, some of the other few residents in that program were definitely "less than perfect" in regards to patient management. I mean just straight out stupid mistakes such as a third year did morning report on a patient he worked up during float and did not even have the physical written out in his H&P. How about this one, Another third year delivered a baby and then drop-ed it on the floor! There was even a resident in the program whom slapped a nurse on the butt and was barley reprimanded for it. All these residents graduated from this residency program. A lot of bs favortism exsisted in the program and it just made me sick. Of corse having some red flags in my back ground did not help my case. Now those are good examples of residents I would not want to touch my family members at any time. I never made gross errors like that. If I would have, the PD would have fired me on the spot. He was a big time A**hole. Any knowledge deficit I had I would actively try to improve by verifying, meaning the patient case with the chief for that month.
One of the third year residents that has already graduated had to literally take his Step 3 six times before he passed, another third year took his 3 to 4 before he passed but yet they are working doctors. On top of all that I have 5 letters of recommendations from attendings I worked with while there which are impressive non the less. 2 associate faculty, 1 ER, 1 Cardiology and the chief resident himself. I have seen plenty of people who are bad test takers or have taken longer than 4 years to graduate from medical school who made it through residency and are actively practicing "GOOD" medicine. Having the knack for medicine is more than just the ability to spit up information like a robot. The way I see it if I did not have what it took to make it as a physician I would have been kicked out of medical school a long time ago like so many others have. I have made many corrections with my short comings and trying to improve them with good results. Many doctors I have heard of or worked with in medical school were brilliant people but had as much common sense as the back of my [email protected]#!
"Hmmmmm, will I don't think I want you as my doc, Doc....you just don't have a high enough step 1 & 2 score for me to feel safe with you taking care of me and my family". If taking an exam multiple times before passing and then passing with low scores make you more less unqualified to be a working physician then maybe all the medical state boards should get together and change the 7 year limit to a 4 year limit for US grads since after all, to be good physician you should have step 1 and 2 taken and passed back to back and then step 3 after your first year of residency. right? Oh and lets raise the standard for passing all the Steps to lets say...whatever the mean is. Because after all everyone who scores below the mean is not worthy to practice medicine because they simply lack the fund of knowledge to be a SAFE practicing physician. And one more thing, if you have taken any of the Steps more than once then you should be banned from medicine all together. God forbid if it takes you more than 4 years to graduate from medical school.
Sorry people but this is the message that I am getting from some of the posts here in. But, keep them coming. Maybe I can learn something from all of this, other than quiting a career that has been both challenging and rewarding for me as well. :xf:
 

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Just to make one minor correction on some of the feed back (feedback one word) I have been getting. I did not get fired from residency, I resigned because of upper staff harassment and I was not the first one attacked. There has (have) been others who were let go, fired or resigned from this program and one was re-selected to another program and is due to graduate from there (their) residency this year. My chief resident told me along with all the 3rd year residents at that time that they all felt I was at the level of a training resident in which I was needed to be. Hardly ever worked with the PD but he had very strong opinions about me, I rectified these issue(s)..at least that was the feed back (feedback) I got from all the Md's (MD) who worked closely with me. Also, I saved one particular patients (patient's) life when she was becoming very hypoxic while I was solo during a night float. And no I had never killed a patient, nor did I ever put one in harms way while doing night float or any type of patient w/u for that matter, and I did many. However, some of the other few residents in that program were definitely "less than perfect" in regards to patient management. I mean just straight out stupid mistakes such as a third year did morning report on a patient he worked up during float and did not even have the physical written out in his H&P. How about this one, A(a)nother third year delivered a baby and then drop-ed (dropped) it on the floor! There was even a resident in the program whom slapped a nurse on the butt and was barley (barely - unless you're making beer) reprimanded for it. All these residents graduated from this residency program. A lot of bs favortism exsisted (existed) in the program and it just made me sick. Of corse (course) having some red flags in my back ground (background) did not help my case. Now those are good examples of residents I would not want to touch my family members at any time. I never made gross errors like that. If I would have, the PD would have fired me on the spot. He was a big time A**hole. Any knowledge deficit I had I would actively try to improve by verifying, meaning the patient case with the chief for that month.
One of the third year residents that has already graduated had to literally take his Step 3 six times before he passed, another third year took his 3 to 4 before he passed but yet they are working doctors. On top of all that I have 5 letters of recommendations (recommendation) from attendings I worked with while there which are impressive non the less. 2 associate faculty, 1 ER, 1 Cardiology and the chief resident himself. I have seen plenty of people who are bad test takers or have taken longer than 4 years to graduate from medical school who made it through residency and are actively practicing "GOOD" medicine. Having the knack for medicine is more than just the ability to spit up information like a robot. The way I see it if I did not have what it took to make it as a physician I would have been kicked out of medical school a long time ago like so many others have. I have made many corrections with my short comings (shortcomings) and (am) trying to improve them with good results. Many doctors I have heard of or worked with in medical school were brilliant people but had as much common sense as the back of my [email protected]#!
"Hmmmmm, will (well) I don't think I want you as my doc, Doc....you just don't have a high enough step 1 & 2 score for me to feel safe with you taking care of me and my family". If taking an exam multiple times before passing and then passing with low scores make you more less unqualified to be a working physician then maybe all the medical state boards should get together and change the 7 year limit to a 4 year limit for US grads since after all, to be good physician you should have step 1 and 2 taken and passed back to back and then step 3 after your first year of residency. right? Oh and lets raise the standard for passing all the Steps to lets say...whatever the mean is. Because after all everyone who scores below the mean is not worthy to practice medicine because they simply lack the fund of knowledge to be a SAFE practicing physician. And one more thing, if you have taken any of the Steps more than once then you should be banned from medicine all together. God forbid if it takes you more than 4 years to graduate from medical school.
Sorry people but this is the message that I am getting from some of the posts here in. But, keep them coming. Maybe I can learn something from all of this, other than quiting (quitting) a career that has been both challenging and rewarding for me as well. :xf:
1) OK, I'm a typo king, but you're just ridiculous.
2) Your argument is "well, some poeple are worse than me" - that's ******ed and you just lost any sympathy you had with me. The argument that you might suck less than someone so you deserve it is insulting.
3) I'm glad the military turned you down. If you're judge of being a good doctor is to not to be the worst guy you've ever seen, then you have pretty crappy standards.
4) you're right, they make the rules the way they do to give second chances. But that doesn't mean that it's OK to be the guy who barely scraped by. It certainly shouldn't give you a sense of entitlement.
 
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Gastrapathy

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Well, on the upside, mirror and orbit won't have to be mad at me for failing this guy. This is the level I'm talking about boys. This is why I said its all about protecting patients.
 

FirstMANdown

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1) OK, I'm a typo king, but you're just ridiculous.
2) Your argument is "well, some poeple are worse than me" - that's ******ed and you just lost any sympathy you had with me. The argument that you might suck less than someone so you deserve it is insulting.
3) I'm glad the military turned you down. If you're judge of being a good doctor is to not to be the worst guy you've ever seen, then you have pretty crappy standards.
4) you're right, they make the rules the way they do to give second chances. But that doesn't mean that it's OK to be the guy who varely(barely) scraped by. It certainly shouldn't give you a sense of entitlement.
Hey Mr.Typo King, looks like you made a typo error. ROFL:laugh:
 

BigNavyPedsGuy

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Nise re-butal way to refoot my poynts

Nice rebuttal way to refute my points
 

Droopy Snoopy

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Knew I'd seen you around SDN before. From other threads:
Heres my take on it. First and foremost....YESH!!!!! O B A M A !!!!

Obama graduated from Harvard Law school. He was #1, top of his class. white, black, chineese...etc who cares, no one in his class performed better than him. McCain on the other hand graduated from a legacy given military academy at the bottom of the bottom. This tells me that Obama had a whole lot more enthusiasm to get ahead early on his life compared to McCain who was born with a golden spoon in his mouth.

Why is this important? #1-we as doctors seem to base a persons qualifications for residency training mainly on USMLE Scores. We all know it means little in becoming a good doctor but it definitely correlates. Obama in the medical realm could be looked at academically as a 265+ where as McCain would be looked at as a 188. In Medicine we all know Obama would get the best residency or near best residency possible while McCain would have to except a whole in the wall program somewhere where no one else wants to live. I know this is stretching the concept a bit but on an academic level Obama is definitely much sharper. I think it is important to have a president who has had a history of perseverance. I realize McCain was a POW for 5 or 6 years and I have a lot of respect for that, but I don't believe that is enough to effectively run the white house.

#2-Age is a big issue. Obama is young, more energetic, and a cowboy who is willing to get out of the old views of politics and make sensible changes that may promote a much greater powerhouse of a nation than anyone would have known is possible. True, he may not have served as long as a senater as most of his colleagues but this also suggest that he may not have been in long enough to be corrupt by the system. McCain on the other hand is old. Older than Reagen was when he ran for presidency. He may not even live long enough to survive his 1st term, and than we would have Palin running the country. Now that is scary. I don't think Palin has ever been an academic stellar in anything she has ever done in her life. In the 80's she was busy trying to look as a pretty girl on stage when she was doing modeling and cat walks. Who ditsyness and bubble headedness even showed when she was elected as McCains VP.........Dumb move on McCain's part. Plenty of other Republican women that could have been much better picks that Palin.

#3-SAME OLD BS! McCain agreed with Bush on most issues. supports big business but gives little dam to the blue collars. Why should he. His wife and him make over $4,000,000.00 a year + 9 houses...etc. There is no benefit for the wealthy to help the middle class in this country. Obama, came from humble beginnings. Father abandon him, mother was on food stamps when he was a kid. In spite of all these set backs (not even including racial profiling), he was able to have the knack to set himself higher than the rest. I think he cares for the middle class much more. Hes been there, He knows the bitter with the sweet. McCain on the other hand is out of touch living a very spoiled life style since he was born. Don't get me wrong this is America. I think everyone has the right to live the American dream and to be as wealthy as possible. But, for president of this United States of America, the main working class in which the economy depends the most on needs a president that will most likely have there back (95% of the US population). With out a doubt that person is President Obama. However, some people still cant except that fact. Those people are forever lost in there own abysmal hell. Things will get better for all of us, you just wait and see.

This is just my opinion though. Please don't take any offense to the things I have written here in. Us as physicians in general should stop thinking only about ourselves and get our heads out of our a**'es and learn to be more giving. After all that is why we really should have got into this career to begin with. And for those who are the "good doctors", God bless your hearts. I know I am not perfect by any imagination and I still have a lot to learn in this world we call life. :D
__________________
----Remmember...wherever you go, there you are.---
And more backstory:

Also, had a racial discrimination against me on my first day in residency as well. Program director took me in on scramble without knowing my ethnicity and photo. When i speak on the phone I sound more "nasal" so I guess he though I was a white boy. Ill never forget, the first day I flew out to see him in person to sign my contract. He looked at me and said "Wow! you don't look like the way you sound on the phone!(smile)" then he had to pause and said "You look taller than I imagined(smile)". I knew then that this would be a F'd up bumpy ride but I needed the job. Never late, worked very very hard and got along great with all the residents. But he still was trying to say that my general knowledge was below par. Maybe it was, but whos isn't?? I have already passed both my step 1 & 2(not flying colors but passed). On top of it this guy had a sign of Jesus Christ on his wall and claimed to be an active christian.....what a hypocrite and a Liar. I resigned after 8 month of blood and sweet, as well as unneeded criticism by small things like miss-spelling words on my H&P. This guy was a regular bastard. Hope he gets whats coming to him.
I decided to move on with my wife and two daughters. I resigned because of pressure. He kept telling me in meetings; "you know, I can fire you any time I want". He also refussed to give me any credits for the 8 months I served him. It is a long story. Bottom line RACISM is real, and as an African American I have had it very very rough. I have no hate towards whites after all my mother is white but it is a serious and real issue. Anyone know a good Lawyer out there??:confused:
Your lack of insight and maturity is absolutely stunning. I honestly don't know what else to say, where to start. Don't care enough to try really, other than to say it sounds like the system is sorting you out as well as can be expected. Please find another career.
 

Perrotfish

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Are there URM FP programs out there? To produce residents for urban areas or some such? Something at Mehery or Morehouse maybe? OP might get along better there. Just a thought.
 

orbitsurgMD

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Are there URM FP programs out there? To produce residents for urban areas or some such? Something at Mehery or Morehouse maybe? OP might get along better there. Just a thought.
That would be a disservice to those institutions, no matter how gracious they might be.

I am still trying to understand the "racial discrimination" in the OP's quoted story, just above. What exactly was the invidious element there? You are implying that there was a discriminatory element to his treatment. All I can see from the entire account--his account--is a pattern of others having bent over backwards to accommodate him, and appear anything but discriminatory. If there was a demonstrated pattern of adequate performance on color-blind criteria, like the SHELF and the USMLE, I might be inclined to wonder, but that isn't the case here. And given the overall presentation, including the repeated malapropisms here and elsewhere (not simply spelling errors or "typos", BTW), I think there is a valid concern for more significant deficiencies, both in fund of knowledge and literacy. This is postgraduate professional education, not remedial coursework in a community college.

If anything, I fault his medical school advisors for not having insisted upon a formal and independent medical and psychological evaluation (at their expense--that would be fair) after his second failure at Step I.

I don't envy his old PD. The closer you get to a trainee's completion--and a PD is the last person to sign off before a doctor goes into practice as a board-eligible graduate, the closer you are to the blowback if that trainee gets into trouble and there is an inquiry. Getting a candidate with obvious problems who has scraped by for at least eight years (how were those MCATs?) having the rules stretched at nearly every gate that is not subjective in quality would make you resent the laxity of the resident's former medical school Dean for not terminating the student after a second fail on Step I.

To colbgw02:

You and I will have to agree to disagree. I happen to think we have a duty to spend U.S. tax dollars in the best interests of the taxpayers, and choosing the best available candidates over any available U.S. graduate is in the best interest of the taxpayers. If all other things were equal, then sure, pick the U.S. grad. It really isn't a problem, as visas are limited and there aren't enough applicants to fill all the programs anyway.
 

Apollyon

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1) OK, I'm a typo king, but you're just ridiculous.
2) Your argument is "well, some poeple are worse than me" - that's ******ed and you just lost any sympathy you had with me. The argument that you might suck less than someone so you deserve it is insulting.
3) I'm glad the military turned you down. If you're judge of being a good doctor is to not to be the worst guy you've ever seen, then you have pretty crappy standards.
4) you're right, they make the rules the way they do to give second chances. But that doesn't mean that it's OK to be the guy who barely scraped by. It certainly shouldn't give you a sense of entitlement.
X2, Rex Typonis! Ave!
 
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Handy388

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a lowly MS-0 has stumbled upon this thread of PURE GOLD.

English is my second language (but will be trained in American med school) and I swear I have better command of it than the OP.
 

The White Coat Investor

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...I was not the first one attacked. There has been others who were let go, fired or resigned from this program and one was re-selected to another program and is due to graduate from there residency this year. ...However, some of the other few residents in that program were definitely "less than perfect" in regards to patient management. I mean just straight out stupid mistakes such as a third year did morning report on a patient he worked up during float and did not even have the physical written out in his H&P. How about this one, Another third year delivered a baby and then drop-ed it on the floor! There was even a resident in the program whom slapped a nurse on the butt and was barley reprimanded for it. All these residents graduated from this residency program. A lot of bs favortism exsisted in the program and it just made me sick. Of corse having some red flags in my back ground did not help my case. Now those are good examples of residents I would not want to touch my family members at any time. I never made gross errors like that. If I would have, the PD would have fired me on the spot. He was a big time A**hole. Any knowledge deficit I had I would actively try to improve by verifying, meaning the patient case with the chief for that month.
One of the third year residents that has already graduated had to literally take his Step 3 six times before he passed, another third year took his 3 to 4 before he passed but yet they are working doctors. On top of all that I have 5 letters of recommendations from attendings I worked with while there which are impressive non the less. 2 associate faculty, 1 ER, 1 Cardiology and the chief resident himself. I have seen plenty of people who are bad test takers or have taken longer than 4 years to graduate from medical school who made it through residency and are actively practicing "GOOD" medicine. :xf:
I'm curious as to why you selected this ****ty program in the first place? Was it the only one you could get into? This is far worse than any program I even considered interviewing at. In fact, this sounds worse than any program I've ever heard of, including one shut down by the RRC for lack of attending supervision.
 
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DogFaceMedic

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a lowly MS-0 has stumbled upon this thread of PURE GOLD.

English is my second language (but will be trained in American med school) and I swear I have better command of it than the OP.
It seems there is blood in the water and the sharks are circling for the enjoyment.
Such behavior we should best leave with other professionals whose proper epithet is "shark."
 

narcusprince

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This post brings up a lot of issues that face minority physicians as well as medical students. Where did the system fail this person was it lax MCAT scores which allowed him to enter medical school through a "diversity" feed program. Also his attitude of P=MD is atrocious, I feel that being a physician one should always strive for excellence. Myself being a minority, one whom excelled on my medical boards near the top of my residency class, deferred military match into the competitive field anesthesiology, am jarred at that whole philosophy of just being average. My opinion is that being a minority you have to strive to be BETTER than everyone else because as soon as you fail then you are classified as a minori-hire or a lazy [email protected]#. Believe me I have heard this before from PHYSICIANS. Racism does exist and I cannot say I have not been effected by it. I went to a a top 10 medical school with a history of institutionalized racism. I excelled but when match time came around my 230 meant nothing to them. As I watched my other classmates get golden handshakes I was given the cold shoulder and told to look elsewhere. Even at the current residency I have heard attending use the slang term [email protected]# to describe a fellow classmate of mine. I was shocked but instead of making waves I turned my head went back to work and said to myself," When I am a attending I will never act like that." Last rotation I had an attending tell me flat out I was a very intelligible resident, academically competent, however he thought that I may have been overbearing in my flexing of academic knowledge in order to makeup for something. In short you have to be better than them because they are always looking at you. Maybe you should get out of clinical medicine their are plenty of fields still vying for physician presence, research, pharmaceutical sales, even in nurse education. Good luck to you.
Excuse the typos.
 

bustbones26

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Okay, all joking aside, let me ask one question of anybody that wants to answer it. What is this guy suppose to do?

Let's assume that he sits back and says, "Ah, the hell with it, medicine is not for me". Let's say that he becomes frustrated and gives up, moves on, decides that this is not the profession for him. Should he decide this, there is two unfortunate items to consider.

1. He graduated medical school. It took 6 years and multiple failures but he did it.

2. He has a committment to the Army.

Now, let's marry these two items. Despite multiple failures and academic shortcomings, he has a MD/DO behind his name and now the Army is going to make him live up to his committment. What this means is that he has to be a doctor in some capacity for whatever his committment length might be (probably 4 years like most).

Now, one thing is for sure. He has to do an internship. Maybe not in the Army but somewhere. If he is lucky, this will lead to selection into a program next year. If not, then its off to GMO land. Either way, he has to be a doctor for a committed time. He is not allowed to give up, quit, forget about it, etc. etc. He must repay his committment and there is no way out of it.

My advice, lay low, very low. Find a transitional internship that is cushy (e.g. no continuity clinics, no call with maybe an obligatory month of night float etc.). Take that year to not only pass and internship but to study and read.

At that end of that year, your are still going to carry the baggage of your past should you be lucky enough to gain acceptance into an Army program (or any program) so lay low. Do your job the best you can, do whatever your program asks you to do, don't speak until spoken to and just stay in the back seat and glide to graduation.

Do not write a letter and complain to anybody. As others here has already mentioned, this will just cause you more problems. Get upset, punch the wall, kick your door down, whatever you need to do to let out your anger and then get over it.

If you do decide to get back into family medicine, graduate residency, and pass your boards, etc. You will be welcomed into any community or utilized in the Army (if you stayed beyond your committment). Remember, that particular profession is much needed.

Take care and I hope that this bump in the road is just that for you.
 

BigNavyPedsGuy

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2. He has a committment to the Army.
No, you're wrong!! That's the thing. He was trying to join the Army (by matching) and they rejected him.

That's what started this whole thing.
 

J-Rad

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Just to make one minor correction on some of the feed back I have been getting. I did not get fired from residency, I resigned because of upper staff harassment and I was not the first one attacked. There has been others who were let go, fired or resigned from this program and one was re-selected to another program and is due to graduate from there residency this year. My chief resident told me along with all the 3rd year residents at that time that they all felt I was at the level of a training resident in which I was needed to be. Hardly ever worked with the PD but he had very strong opinions about me, I rectified these issue..at least that was the feed back I got from all the Md's who worked closely with me. Also, I saved one particular patients life when she was becoming very hypoxic while I was solo during a night float. And no I had never killed a patient nor did I ever put one in harms way while doing night float or any type of patient w/u for that matter, and I did many. However, some of the other few residents in that program were definitely "less than perfect" in regards to patient management. I mean just straight out stupid mistakes such as a third year did morning report on a patient he worked up during float and did not even have the physical written out in his H&P. How about this one, Another third year delivered a baby and then drop-ed it on the floor! There was even a resident in the program whom slapped a nurse on the butt and was barley reprimanded for it. All these residents graduated from this residency program. A lot of bs favortism exsisted in the program and it just made me sick. Of corse having some red flags in my back ground did not help my case. Now those are good examples of residents I would not want to touch my family members at any time. I never made gross errors like that. If I would have, the PD would have fired me on the spot. He was a big time A**hole. Any knowledge deficit I had I would actively try to improve by verifying, meaning the patient case with the chief for that month.
One of the third year residents that has already graduated had to literally take his Step 3 six times before he passed, another third year took his 3 to 4 before he passed but yet they are working doctors. On top of all that I have 5 letters of recommendations from attendings I worked with while there which are impressive non the less. 2 associate faculty, 1 ER, 1 Cardiology and the chief resident himself. I have seen plenty of people who are bad test takers or have taken longer than 4 years to graduate from medical school who made it through residency and are actively practicing "GOOD" medicine. Having the knack for medicine is more than just the ability to spit up information like a robot. The way I see it if I did not have what it took to make it as a physician I would have been kicked out of medical school a long time ago like so many others have. I have made many corrections with my short comings and trying to improve them with good results. Many doctors I have heard of or worked with in medical school were brilliant people but had as much common sense as the back of my [email protected]#!
"Hmmmmm, will I don't think I want you as my doc, Doc....you just don't have a high enough step 1 & 2 score for me to feel safe with you taking care of me and my family". If taking an exam multiple times before passing and then passing with low scores make you more less unqualified to be a working physician then maybe all the medical state boards should get together and change the 7 year limit to a 4 year limit for US grads since after all, to be good physician you should have step 1 and 2 taken and passed back to back and then step 3 after your first year of residency. right? Oh and lets raise the standard for passing all the Steps to lets say...whatever the mean is. Because after all everyone who scores below the mean is not worthy to practice medicine because they simply lack the fund of knowledge to be a SAFE practicing physician. And one more thing, if you have taken any of the Steps more than once then you should be banned from medicine all together. God forbid if it takes you more than 4 years to graduate from medical school.
Sorry people but this is the message that I am getting from some of the posts here in. But, keep them coming. Maybe I can learn something from all of this, other than quiting a career that has been both challenging and rewarding for me as well. :xf:
And here you demonstrate the problem. I agree, that second chances are in order for those that are willing to work for it and don't believe that the world at large and the world of medicine owes them something. I know that there are people out there that required a second or a third chance to get their house in order and can succeed. But at what point is it too much? It's hard to say, but you fully admit to and bask in your mediocrity (and that is a generous term in this case) and blame others for it while resenting that the military won't take a superstar such as yourself for no better a reason than having a medical degree and not having a criminal record. (As an aside, if you peruse the posts of even the strident critics of milmed a common theme is frustration with trying to do the best for your patients in a system often designed to stymie that effort. I doubt any of them would see your acceptance into the milmed system as any step forward). You keep talking about failing these tests, but it isn't that that would make anyone balk at your taking care of their loved ones. But less-than-mediocrity inspires less-than confidence. Yes, hounding on misspelling on an H&P may seem excessive, but if it's part of a pattern of lack of attention to detail, that IS the stuff that M&Ms are made of. We have all made mistakes, but nothing in your story speaks to someone who would adapt, overcome, and learn from yours. For the sake of your patients, if you are ever allowed to continue training, I hope I am wrong. I think Narcus's post is particularly germane for you.

Are there URM FP programs out there? To produce residents for urban areas or some such? Something at Mehery or Morehouse maybe? OP might get along better there. Just a thought.
The last time medical folk experimented on unsuspecting black folk in this manner it had something to do with syphilis, didn't it?
 

Perrotfish

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Let's assume that he sits back and says, "Ah, the hell with it, medicine is not for me". Let's say that he becomes frustrated and gives up, moves on, decides that this is not the profession for him. Should he decide this, there is two unfortunate items to consider.

1. He graduated medical school. It took 6 years and multiple failures but he did it.
I think this is enough to cause the problem, even sans military commitment. Really the root problem here is that medical school debt has gotten so high that you can no longer really humanely fail someone out of either residency or even medical school after the first year or so. It places an unreasonable emphasis of the bottleneck of just getting into medical school to evaluate the quality of the candidate.
 

m015094

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Hey Mr.Typo King, looks like you made a typo error. ROFL:laugh:
Yeah, he made a TYPO - something you do when your finger hits the wrong key on the keyboard. Your errors are more along the lines of a lack of understanding of grammar and the English language in general.
 

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I thank everyone for there comments. Things got heated up for some and others, brutal honesty as well as encouragement. I appreciate it all. Throughout my life I have always had obstacles, not just medical academics but had a hard up bringing. I have seen a lot in my life. You can say what you want about me and my life with its long string of mishaps and shortcomings, but when it comes down to it I don't ever quit what I start. This may be a failure on my part to foresee a very hard road ahead of me (maybe or not) but I will not quit or give up the fight. I will see this thing through to my best ability. It's not over until the fat lady sings.

Again, Thank you all for your honest input. Pro's or Con's it is always appreciated.:highfive:
 

a1qwerty55

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I'm curious as to why you selected this ****ty program in the first place? Was it the only one you could get into? This is far worse than any program I even considered interviewing at. In fact, this sounds worse than any program I've ever heard of, including one shut down by the RRC for lack of attending supervision.
I had the misfortune of working with a surgeon from a DO residency. All I can say is apparently they were not teaching surgery there. This whole parallel training thing and seperate evaluation/regulation scheme scares me.
 

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Sir,

Yours are the worst credentials I have ever heard of for someone in search of a residency position. 6 years for medical school, multiple failures on all portions of board exams relating to medical knowledge, and what amounts to dismissal from a family medicine residency position for lack of medical acumen.

This pattern of gross lack of medical knowledge and apparent inability to correct your deficiencies makes me concerned that you will injure your patients should you ever practice medicine without direct supervision. For that reason I have to question the judgement of anyone on this board who thinks you should tough it out and keep trying to find a residency spot.

If, God forbid, you bumble around in a residency and get passed along with a wink and a nod the way you were at medical school, you will be on your own without anymore handholding. Are you not concerned for the patients you would treat?

You mentioned above that one of your qualifications was a lack of felony convictions. To be perfectly blunt, I would rather have a convicted felon with reasonable medical knowledge who got their act together treating my family than you. Our armed forces certainly deserve better.
 
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Thyroid Storm
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This post brings up a lot of issues that face minority physicians as well as medical students. Where did the system fail this person was it lax MCAT scores which allowed him to enter medical school through a "diversity" feed program.
Most likely. AA certainly did not do this person any favors. It allowed him acceptance into a training program that he was not cut out for. I'm not trying to turn this thread into an AA debate, i'm just pointing out how this person got into this predicament. Obviously this person is a very unusual case and is not representative.

I went to a a top 10 medical school with a history of institutionalized racism. I excelled but when match time came around my 230 meant nothing to them. As I watched my other classmates get golden handshakes I was given the cold shoulder and told to look elsewhere.
Quotes like these annoy the hell out of me. I did better than 230 on my step one and guess how much that meant to top 10 residency programs? I didn't even get interviews at those programs! So I guess they're racist against white people too . . . .
 

narcusprince

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Mirror,
I did receive interviews at top ten programs in the country for residency. It was my home institution that was racist(by their own admission they say that they have not been kind to AA candidates). What field are you in Mirror???
 

MaximusD

Anatomically Incorrect
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I had the misfortune of working with a surgeon from a DO residency. All I can say is apparently they were not teaching surgery there. This whole parallel training thing and seperate evaluation/regulation scheme scares me.
With all due respect, I question this sentiment. Please provide adequate explanation of this judgement.

And to the OP, you have done horribly in your medical career thus far. I'm no star pupil, but I get through things the first time (so far, anyway). I am confident that you have worked hard, however I question how you have failed repeatedly at various checkpoints along the way.

I honestly suggest that you consider not practicing medicine clinically. There are other positions that accept licensed physicians. Perhaps you should attempt to get into any PGY-1 program that will accept you, and i do mean ANY and find a different career path either with an insurance company, in research, or in pharmaceuticals. Hell, you could end up making more money taking those routes anyway.

I know I'll be scorned for this, but best of luck in all that you do.

Just please honestly consider whether this is the right path for you. Patients deserve a high quality of care.
 
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