What to Do? Am I screwed?

[Archimedes]

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Alright Doctors (or soon-to-be doctors) , Diagnose me: 😀

Okay, so basically I come from a typical south Asian family who pushes their every kid to be a doctor. When I entered college, I did not know what the hell to do with my life, so I basically took some science classes and started on my biology major to see how I'd feel about continuing on in science.

That led to a number of good solid research internships - 1. neuro internship for the summer. 2. stem cell research internship which I'm still on - this will be a total 2 year internship. 3. epilepsy research internship - this was a psych study and it lasted for like 6 months - here i worked with epilepsy patients collecting data on them. 4. a summer internship at nice university in a top notch immunology lab - basic research in making antibodies.

GPA is 3.9

Major: double major in biology and philosophy

Minor: Chemistry and Microbiology (double minor).

Volunteer work - Hospice (although not frequently - kind of like once every two weeks?). Also worked in Ronald McDonald - cooking dinner and entertaining kids - also once every two weeks. I am also a suicide counselor - I work on crisis lines, so we get suicide calls as well as domestic abuse, rape, teen pregnancy, drug abuse etc. The cool thing is we also get calls from folks with various psychological and psychiatric disorders.

Here's the catch. And I'm sure many of you have gone thru this.

MCAT is a flat 24.

Reason: I couldn't take it in April of my third year due to family problems. That semester was tough enough to pull out on its own. Then the summer internship at another university in another state had me working lab hours until 10 pm. So obviously, I had very little time to study for the MCAT. I got the same score that I was getting on my first princeton diagnostic, to be quite honest.

I think I can definitely pull up the score, because part of it was sheer stress...I slept like 1-2 hours the night before the MCAT. I was too worried that my PI of my lab in this internship was not satisfied that my RNA wasn't working!!!

And also - I had my goals set on MD/PhD.

So all that is gone into the garbage for the time being.

The questions I have now are the following:

1. I'm applying to the NIH postbacc programs and I hear those are really nice - the plus is you get paid. How does this weigh up against a 1-year master's program. Mind you, I've taken almost all the tough classes at my own institution (which is not a top notch school btw, but its no community college either). Most of the classes I've taken are science courses.

2. Should I work more on my clinicals?

3. Physician shadowing - I physician shadowed for one summer, and that too was really like 3 visits with the physician.

4. Rec Letters - I have them written already since I was intending on applying last summer. I have the required 3 science, 1 outsider, 1 non-science letters. Do the secondaries require more than this? I just read in some thread that some guy had like 15 letters of rec?? Are more optional and almost necessary (even if the school doesn't say they are needed)?

5. Does now waiting a year, and having to take the mcat over again diminish my chances of getting into top tier schools? Like, even if I got a 35 the second time around on my MCAT (given that the first poor score was really due to stress and poor preparation, rather than my own skills and intelligence), should I still kiss schools like Upenn, UCSF, Columbia, Harvard, etc good-bye?

6. I'm beginning to have second thoughts about doing an MD/PhD. This is mainly because from what I've seen of MD/PhD program guys - and I've talked to many of them and seen a little of the politics that is behind these programs - I'm afraid that they'll pressure me into not doing a residency after the MD/PhD program - and I dont want any pressure of that kind. Most of these programs lean on the PhD side (not all), and they prefer to see you go into a research fellowship rather than actually practice medicine. Also, I will be immobile for anywhere between 7-10 years. I'd like to start a family at some point, and I'm now in a long-distance relationship, and (not that I absolutely WILL marry this guy), it just makes me realize that it is always good to be flexible. So, if i want to move because of marriage, I can do that after 4 years, rather than having the 7-10 year range block me.

For that, I need to talk to my professors and ask them to change my rec letters from rec'ing for md/phd programs to md programs (but still emphasizing that I'd like to pursue research as an MD and that I'd be interested possibly in doing a phd afterwards). And that is an obstacle in itself, because I don't know if that will make me look unprepared and undecisive to the professors writing me rec letters - and one of these guys REALLY wants to see me get into an md/phd program!

Blah - I figured I'd just vent out if anything. Please please please, if you have any good advice let me know - PM me, email me, reply to me in this thread. I'm kinda depressed these days. Help?

Thanks!

 

[Paws]

Well, hmmmmm ... I think there might be hope for this patient. 😉

Dude! I am in my first year and I have not even half the stellar stuff you just described. Plus I am older too. 😀 But seriously, chill. I didn't have an aisian family breathing down my neck, and I am just a plain old vanilla american. But still, I would just step back and take a minute and re-examine your stats which are pretty awesome. Then, take another minute and ask youself: what do I need to boost up my mcat score.

Then, just boost your score. That's about it that I can see. I know the pressure can feel crazy and intense, but just remember to step back periodically and assess the overall picture. It's a marathon not a sprint, and try and enjoy the journey along the way.

 

[virilep]

Hey man, I usually don't reply to long threads like this... but I guess I'm a good person to relate you're story to. I'm desi... guju, if that means anything, but i know exactly what you mean. I'll try to answer your questions.

you have a great record. the volunteer work is great. depending on what state you're from, you might be able to get into a decent state school.

what would I do?
I took a year off. I had a pretty good track record except for the MCAT and I got waitlisted. So i took a year off.

Alright Doctors (or soon-to-be doctors) , Diagnose me: 😀

Okay, so basically I come from a typical south Asian family who pushes their every kid to be a doctor. When I entered college, I did not know what the hell to do with my life, so I basically took some science classes and started on my biology major to see how I'd feel about continuing on in science.

That led to a number of good solid research internships - 1. neuro internship for the summer. 2. stem cell research internship which I'm still on - this will be a total 2 year internship. 3. epilepsy research internship - this was a psych study and it lasted for like 6 months - here i worked with epilepsy patients collecting data on them. 4. a summer internship at nice university in a top notch immunology lab - basic research in making antibodies.

GPA is 3.9

Major: double major in biology and philosophy

Minor: Chemistry and Microbiology (double minor).

Volunteer work - Hospice (although not frequently - kind of like once every two weeks?). Also worked in Ronald McDonald - cooking dinner and entertaining kids - also once every two weeks. I am also a suicide counselor - I work on crisis lines, so we get suicide calls as well as domestic abuse, rape, teen pregnancy, drug abuse etc. The cool thing is we also get calls from folks with various psychological and psychiatric disorders.

Here's the catch. And I'm sure many of you have gone thru this.

MCAT is a flat 24.

Reason: I couldn't take it in April of my third year due to family problems. That semester was tough enough to pull out on its own. Then the summer internship at another university in another state had me working lab hours until 10 pm. So obviously, I had very little time to study for the MCAT. I got the same score that I was getting on my first princeton diagnostic, to be quite honest.

I think I can definitely pull up the score, because part of it was sheer stress...I slept like 1-2 hours the night before the MCAT. I was too worried that my PI of my lab in this internship was not satisfied that my RNA wasn't working!!!

And also - I had my goals set on MD/PhD.

So all that is gone into the garbage for the time being.

The questions I have now are the following:

1. I'm applying to the NIH postbacc programs and I hear those are really nice - the plus is you get paid. How does this weigh up against a 1-year master's program. Mind you, I've taken almost all the tough classes at my own institution (which is not a top notch school btw, but its no community college either). Most of the classes I've taken are science courses.

In my mind, I see it being beneficial to stay on the stem cell research you are now and even if you get paid less, it will be great to stay with the same PI and increase your chances of getting published (if you are not already). also, this might be a little more laid back for you to study for the MCAT.

2. Should I work more on my clinicals?

I think this would be a great idea. since you would be taking the year off to study for the MCAT, talk to a doctor that's in a field you would find interesting.. and if you go to a school that has a med school there, you can shadow people and the doc's LOR will be a lot more persuasive at that school. I just realized that question 2 and 3 are the same ;-)

3. Physician shadowing - I physician shadowed for one summer, and that too was really like 3 visits with the physician.

4. Rec Letters - I have them written already since I was intending on applying last summer. I have the required 3 science, 1 outsider, 1 non-science letters. Do the secondaries require more than this? I just read in some thread that some guy had like 15 letters of rec?? Are more optional and almost necessary (even if the school doesn't say they are needed)?

no, the object of the game is to get the best possible- that know you the best. he maybe had more but they don't count more if you have more of them quantity wise. you're fine in this aspect.

5. Does now waiting a year, and having to take the mcat over again diminish my chances of getting into top tier schools? Like, even if I got a 35 the second time around on my MCAT (given that the first poor score was really due to stress and poor preparation, rather than my own skills and intelligence), should I still kiss schools like Upenn, UCSF, Columbia, Harvard, etc good-bye?

actually some top tier med schools like this. if you decide to take the year off and do some kind of research/ travel/ volunteer work that might make you look a lot better than the person that just graduated. the numbers game is more of a way to get your foot in the door for the interview. once you get that, your goal is to be unique. then this time spent during the year off, that's crucial. I've spent time traveling, i'm substitute teaching now, and going to europe in the summer. but... i do wish now that i had a research job that paid me. i make some money, but not ballin by any means.

6. I'm beginning to have second thoughts about doing an MD/PhD. This is mainly because from what I've seen of MD/PhD program guys - and I've talked to many of them and seen a little of the politics that is behind these programs - I'm afraid that they'll pressure me into not doing a residency after the MD/PhD program - and I dont want any pressure of that kind. Most of these programs lean on the PhD side (not all), and they prefer to see you go into a research fellowship rather than actually practice medicine. Also, I will be immobile for anywhere between 7-10 years. I'd like to start a family at some point, and I'm now in a long-distance relationship, and (not that I absolutely WILL marry this guy), it just makes me realize that it is always good to be flexible. So, if i want to move because of marriage, I can do that after 4 years, rather than having the 7-10 year range block me.

I definately agree. I was thinking of doing a MD/PhD in biomed engineering. but then I realized what I want to do in my life. I want to treat patients and be more of a clinical person. it's totally up to you and how you want to see your life in 10 years. a friend of mine is doing a md/phd and she's worried that it's too long... (and by the way, i know the added pressure of being desi and the fact that you're a girl)

For that, I need to talk to my professors and ask them to change my rec letters from rec'ing for md/phd programs to md programs (but still emphasizing that I'd like to pursue research as an MD and that I'd be interested possibly in doing a phd afterwards). And that is an obstacle in itself, because I don't know if that will make me look unprepared and undecisive to the professors writing me rec letters - and one of these guys REALLY wants to see me get into an md/phd program!

Blah - I figured I'd just vent out if anything. Please please please, if you have any good advice let me know - PM me, email me, reply to me in this thread. I'm kinda depressed these days. Help?

you shouldn't be depressed. for sure. just look at it with a positive aspect- as an opportunity.

Thanks!

you're welcome 🙂 holla if you got questions.

 

[doc05]

md vs md/phd: why did you do all that research if you're not interested? clinical medicine is boring, and if research is what you like, the phd is essential.

mcat: study this time.

nih postbacc: sounds nice. but you've already spent enough time in the lab.

letters: ask them to rewrite; most will be fine with it.

publications: have you published all the work? if not, then at least get a few abstracts/posters out of it.

clinical experience: yours is really enough. there's only so much you can do/learn prior to medical school...because of this, you'll never know what you're getting into until you're there (no matter how much or where you volunteer)

year off? I suggest you retake (and ace) the mcat, then bum around europe for a while. the nih program sounds nice, but it's not essential since you've already had a ton of research experience. peace corps is also a good idea (esp. if you've got your heart set on a top-tier school), but it's a 2-year deal.

best of luck

 

[irishlaydi]

Hi. Just wanted to say that I spent a year at the NIH in the Post-Bac program and was able to do straight clinical research (more clinical stuff than actual research) and got a lot of great experience. PM me if you have any questions about the program, etc...
Good Luck with whatever you decide

 

[Dazed]

My advice: apply this year & see what happens. You may get in with your other credentials. If not, retake the MCAT & apply again - I am sure you can do much better if you study. I also recommend NOT doing something medically related - you'll be doing that for the rest of your life & it really doesn't seem like you need more things to add to your resume.

Dazed, MS4

 

[llort]

dang, your post was longer than the magna carta. chill out. apply

 

[hotlikebutter]

wow, i feel like this is my personal bio. good research, good gpa, just low mcat scores and very interested in md/phd.

I can offer my advice since i also did the NIH post bac program. it is an amazing program and having it on your cv looks awesome. every interview Ive had asked me about it. I had a chance to talk to many phds. mds and md/phds and they all pretty much tell me that you can only have time for one if you really want to be good at it. If you do the md/phd you will most likely be an okay md and an ok phd. this is generalizing big time, but this is from the mouths of branch chiefs!

Plus with just an MD or DO you can do research. The true benefit of the md/phd is the NIH scholarship you get for medical school. also, if you ask a true phd about md/phd they will most of the time tell you that the phd portion is inferior to one that is done alone in terms of training for research. again, a gross generalization.

my advice is decide what you want to do. for me, it was the clinical experiences that inspired me while the research was just stimulating and challenging. i ultimately chose to take the mcat again and scored 27, again kinda low for MD schools. I wanted to give up and go to graduate school, but obvisously this was the path of least resistance and I would have been a person with a phd who is not inspired.

I was faced with two choices, take the mcat again for the 4th time or just apply to MD and DO schools. I chose the latter. Yes there is still people who deny the significance fo the DO's, but they are a minority, and some of the DO schools arent exactly cake to get into either! I was met with a warm reception by the DO schools and truly felt they evaluated my desire to be a doctor and not my MCAT score, so half way through I withdrew my MD apps and secured a seat at an osteopathic school and am very happy to start next year.

I think i could have gotten into an MD school somewhere in the US with my stats, but I wanted to have a choice where i would live for 4 years. I would highly recommend you look into applying and talking to both md and do students. they will most often tell you go where the tuition is cheapest, good rotations and where you will be happy regardless of degree type. my best friend, doing her md/phd said her experiences with DO's in her clinical rotations have taught here there is no difference, in fact she has quite a few DO preceptors, and she urges me to follow my dream to be a physician and thats what I will do.

good luck to you, feel free to private message me if you have any questions about the NIH program or whatever. its highly competitive to get so dont take it lightly. i would suggest you apply to the cancer institute given your research background. I was in NIMH and had a great time. I got publications and lived it up in DC while getting paid! what more can a pre med ask for?!

 

[sundevil23]

Taking a year off will not kill your chances at a top school as long as your MCAT improves. I had a friend who was in a similar situation, excellent stats except the MCAT. He took a year off, did some research, studied his butt off for the MCAT, did much much better and now is a 2nd year a U of Michigan. Best of luck, don't give up and give the MCAT hell this April! 🙂

 

[waterski232002]

md vs md/phd: why did you do all that research if you're not interested? clinical medicine is boring, and if research is what you like, the phd is essential.

mcat: study this time.

nih postbacc: sounds nice. but you've already spent enough time in the lab.

letters: ask them to rewrite; most will be fine with it.

publications: have you published all the work? if not, then at least get a few abstracts/posters out of it.

clinical experience: yours is really enough. there's only so much you can do/learn prior to medical school...because of this, you'll never know what you're getting into until you're there (no matter how much or where you volunteer)

year off? I suggest you retake (and ace) the mcat, then bum around europe for a while. the nih program sounds nice, but it's not essential since you've already had a ton of research experience. peace corps is also a good idea (esp. if you've got your heart set on a top-tier school), but it's a 2-year deal.

best of luck

Well said... Agree 👍

 

[jbod34]

I am currently a 2nd year student and I feel obligated to give my 2 cents. Being a doctor is not about getting As and 4.0s and 30s on the MCAT. I will tell you from experience that there are a lot of people in my class who have steller records, grades, experience, etc but they are going to be terrible doctors. Tallking to some of them is like talking to a wall. Some have no people skills and it is obvious that their hearts are not in it. DONT do medicine because someone pushed you into it or because you just feel like its the next step b/c you have good grades or like science. Ask yourself, do you have a passion and compassion for people? Are you willing to work 20 hour days with your only grattitude sometimes being vomited upon by the drunk that you are obligated to take care of? Can you relate and put yourself into the shoes of the wife whose husband you just diagnosed with pancreatic cancer and has a prognosis of only weeks? My poinit is medicine is not for everyone. I am not in anyway implying that you fall into this catagory but I would seriously suggest you look deep inside and decide whether or not this is really what you want. If all you want is to be a doctor no matter what then be thrilled that you get the opportunity to be a physican whether that means being a DO or an MD. NO ONE CARES which that you are as long as you provide care that is patient oriented. Ask around. Lots of patients get treated by nurse practioners and PAs and they think they are doctors. Our goal is to take care of patients to the best of our ability and not get caught up in our title.

 

[kingcer0x]

I am currently a 2nd year student and I feel obligated to give my 2 cents. Being a doctor is not about getting As and 4.0s and 30s on the MCAT.

yeah, but getting into medical school sure is...

dude, take the mcat again, get a 30, and you are good to go.

 

[tupac_don]

md vs md/phd: why did you do all that research if you're not interested? clinical medicine is boring, and if research is what you like, the phd is essential.

mcat: study this time.

nih postbacc: sounds nice. but you've already spent enough time in the lab.

letters: ask them to rewrite; most will be fine with it.

publications: have you published all the work? if not, then at least get a few abstracts/posters out of it.

clinical experience: yours is really enough. there's only so much you can do/learn prior to medical school...because of this, you'll never know what you're getting into until you're there (no matter how much or where you volunteer)

year off? I suggest you retake (and ace) the mcat, then bum around europe for a while. the nih program sounds nice, but it's not essential since you've already had a ton of research experience. peace corps is also a good idea (esp. if you've got your heart set on a top-tier school), but it's a 2-year deal.

best of luck

Clinical medicine is boring???? Are you serious? Yea research is way more fun, being cooped up in a lab all day and doing experiments. In clinical medicine you get to do cool stuff and its much more intense. You are in the middle of all action, particularly if you work in in ER, surgery or an ICU. Sorry but clinical medicine is way more exciting than research hands down, even being a clinical dermatologist is more exciting than research.

 

[doc05]

Clinical medicine is boring???? Are you serious? Yea research is way more fun, being cooped up in a lab all day and doing experiments. In clinical medicine you get to do cool stuff and its much more intense. You are in the middle of all action, particularly if you work in in ER, surgery or an ICU. Sorry but clinical medicine is way more exciting than research hands down, even being a clinical dermatologist is more exciting than research.

you obviously have been watching too much "ER." the reality is that clinical medicine gets boring really fast. 90% of what you see is routine. very routine. if you think ER is exciting, then you don't realize how many people come in with complaints related to their own poor judgment.

surgery is great, if you can put up with all the bulls--t that goes along with the job. ICU is about endless rounding, dying patients, many of whom don't leave (alive, that is).

and there is zero intellectual creativity in clinical medicine, unless you are one of the very few academic physicians involved in cutting-edge research.

 

[MoosePilot]

I'm completely confused...

The only weak part of your app is your MCAT, so you want to know whether you need to do a super high powered post-bacc?! 😕

It sounds like extraneous things are what distracted you from the MCAT the first time. Your worries about your research I'm sure are very important to you, but can't be distilled down to a simple number like the MCAT.

Take 4 months and do nothing but prep for the MCAT. Now until April would be the best time, but you're getting a slightly late start. Do your personal best on the MCAT and reapply. That's it.

 

[lemurlover]

you sound super uber capable, what with the well-rounded academics, great gpa, and work experience. take on a little less for a while. contemplate whether you WANT to be a doctor. sounds like you enjoy research a lot and working with people. that's good. just make sure you want to be a doc for YOURSELF, not for your parents who are not going to study for you or stay up late taking care of sick people for you. this really is about you.

take the mcat again, and treat it like a part time or full time job studying for it. if your family can afford to support you during that time, that will help immensely. and while you're studying, take up a new hobby, just for FUN. something that you will not list on your resume. that helps with the stress to have at least something that's not an achievement!

best luck!