What went wrong and who can I talk to about my application?

[K1NG]

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Let me start by saying that when I was pregnant sometime in the last century, I had little respect for What to Expect When You Are Expecting. That said, the book really emphasized "Best Odds" the things you should do to have the best chance of the most desirable outcome.

Can you have a healthy baby even if you smoke? Yes, it can happen. Drink one cocktail once a month? Yeah, stories have been told of someone who did that and still had a healthy baby. and so on.

Same with med admissions. There are people who have managed to do well despite not having research, not having shadowing, not getting a 10 in verbal on the MCAT but the fact remains that the odds of getting admitted are much better if you do that stuff.

I have all that stuff.. but still no II lol. Med school why u do dis??

I will make a separate thread though for advice on what to do next if I don't hear anything by the end of this month.

 

[ski89]

OP has received more than enough advise by now, but I will add my 2 cents for what it's worth..

My application has been relatively successful (5 interviews, 1 acceptance so far, 1 waitlist). You can look at my MD apps to get an idea of my basic activities (oh and, 3.63/32). I also have some things in my application that could be considered red flags - institutional action (academic related), an MIP, multiple Fs, multiple Ws. However, I was able to craft an AMCAS application, essays, LORs, etc that all "fit together". That is, starting from my personal statement I had a clear theme that resonated though my activities, my grades, my general life story even. It's hard to explain, but there is a distinct difference between a munch of jumbled together activities and grades vs an application that is consistent between what you and your recommenders write about (your motivations, character, interests, etc) and what you actually did. When these factors line up, your application comes across as more believable, personable, genuine, and thus more memorable and desirable.

Not sure if I explained that very well..

 

[ski89]

I have all that stuff.. but still no II lol. Med school why u do dis??

I will make a separate thread though for advice on what to do next if I don't hear anything by the end of this month.

That was precisely LizzyM's point. Those things are conducive to success but do not in any way produce success 100% or even perhaps 60% of the time.

 

[medic86]

OP has received more than enough advise by now, but I will add my 2 cents for what it's worth..

My application has been relatively successful (5 interviews, 1 acceptance so far, 1 waitlist). You can look at my MD apps to get an idea of my basic activities (oh and, 3.63/32). I also have some things in my application that could be considered red flags - institutional action (academic related), an MIP, multiple Fs, multiple Ws. However, I was able to craft an AMCAS application, essays, LORs, etc that all "fit together". That is, starting from my personal statement I had a clear theme that resonated though my activities, my grades, my general life story even. It's hard to explain, but there is a distinct difference between a munch of jumbled together activities and grades vs an application that is consistent between what you and your recommenders write about (your motivations, character, interests, etc) and what you actually did. When these factors line up, your application comes across as more believable, personable, genuine, and thus more memorable and desirable.

Not sure if I explained that very well..

Nope. That was an excellent explanation. 😛

 

[K1NG]

That was precisely LizzyM's point. Those things are conducive to success but do not in any way produce success 100% or even perhaps 60% of the time.

Haha yeah I know 🙂

 

[lolcat]

sort of relevant to the thread.. but i might be a 3rd time reapp and i'm a little embarassed to request another LOR from my writers for the next cycle or possible SMP. how should i go about doing that? i am on good terms with them but i honestly feel like crap to break them the news

 

[PlasticBag]

sort of relevant to the thread.. but i might be a 3rd time reapp and i'm a little embarassed to request another LOR from my writers for the next cycle or possible SMP. how should i go about doing that? i am on good terms with them but i honestly feel like crap to break them the news

I would feel the same way. If you applied to DO schools, you should have all letters in Interfolio. I sent one letter from interfolio to AMCAS and it was added to my app. So you can potentially reuse old letters if you have them in Interfolio

 

[lolcat]

I would feel the same way. If you applied to DO schools, you should have all letters in Interfolio. I sent one letter from interfolio to AMCAS and it was added to my app. So you can potentially reuse old letters if you have them in Interfolio

yeah i have them in interfolio for DO schools, didn't know that was possible. but wouldn't you want them to maybe change a few things in the letter as well just in case? i mean to improve your chances.. not sure if reusing the same letter would be of benefit

 

[hoihaie]

Let me start by saying that when I was pregnant sometime in the last century, I had little respect for What to Expect When You Are Expecting. That said, the book really emphasized "Best Odds" the things you should do to have the best chance of the most desirable outcome.

Can you have a healthy baby even if you smoke? Yes, it can happen. Drink one cocktail once a month? Yeah, stories have been told of someone who did that and still had a healthy baby. and so on.

Same with med admissions. There are people who have managed to do well despite not having research, not having shadowing, not getting a 10 in verbal on the MCAT but the fact remains that the odds of getting admitted are much better if you do that stuff.

Why would you risk FAS with your baby 🙁
(unless the clinical recommendation has changed since I last did a research presentation on that topic in 2011?)

 

[gyngyn]

Why would you risk FAS with your baby 🙁
(unless the clinical recommendation has changed since I last did a research presentation on that topic in 2011?)

Recommendations will not change because the safe amount of ETOH for any given individual is not known, but Italy has turned out ok...

 

[PlasticBag]

yeah i have them in interfolio for DO schools, didn't know that was possible. but wouldn't you want them to maybe change a few things in the letter as well just in case? i mean to improve your chances.. not sure if reusing the same letter would be of benefit

If they are from two cycles ago, it's probably better to ask the letter writers to add a few updates. But if you're really embarrassed about it and the original letters were strong, I guess reusing them at least lets you move forward with your application.
I would probably reuse some letters (especially from professors - not much in their opinion can change after you've finished their class) but I would try to also get a letter from someone new.

 

[karayaa]

It all depends on what you are doing. Being an ER scribe does not replace doing shadowing. As an ER scribe, you are performing a job, which in this context is a negative because it makes your focus performing a task, rather than learning about what you are getting into. You are exposed to the emergency room and health care administered there, which is very different from how 90%+ physicians practice. The purpose of shadowing is that you see what the daily life of a physician is. Interacting with patients, the paperwork, the conferences, the business, the science, the art, everything. Most jobs working at a hospital don't fulfill that. I interviewed someone a few years back for medical school who had 3 years of experience working as a ER tech and then as a Rad tech. They wrote down that they had something like 2500 hours of "clinical experience", but after talking to them, it was clear that those jobs were just that, jobs. They did the job very well, but that means they showed up, did their job and clocked out, nothing more. I want it to be clear, there is nothing wrong with that inherently. But if you are going to try to double count hours that you were paid during, you better have gotten something actually out of them. This is like someone doing 'research' by washing glassware in a lab. Being in the hospital and being able to smell the patients is one thing, but actually knowing what physicians do is something else. You can't replace that experience. Are there people who get in without that? Of course. But, the vast majority of admissions committees want to know that you at least tried to figure out what being a physician is like.



This is how I read your application:
3.48/38
Zero research
ER scribe
Zero altruism oriented volunteering
Below average personal statement
Below average LOR
Zero physician shadowing
Reasonable work history
ORM

Summary: Asymmetric academics, time outside of academics is largely spent working for pay despite not supporting family/others. No big unique factors.

3.48/38 applying widely and broadly is more than sufficient to get into medical school from an academic perspective. The fact that you had zero interviews indicates that something on your application stopped people from interviewing you. IAs/Criminal issues aside (assume that you don't have these), I think the biggest question for me is why should a medical school use a spot on you? What do you bring to the table that will help my medical school class. It is surprising that out of 24 schools, not a single one thought that your package outside of your stats was possibly what they were looking for. It is possible that a single something is holding you back, but those are usually pretty easy to suss out since there aren't that many that can do that.

If you have a lower GPA, you are competing with a lot more people. Your ECs have to be at a minimum cohesive and complete. Your personal statement and your LOR need to be at a minimum positive (not just saying, "He is a nice guy"). If you have an above average GPA/MCAT, the bar is a little lower, smaller deficiencies in an application are less magnified. You do NOT need some big unique thing to get you into medical school. But, you have multiple areas in your application that are sub-standard. When someone reviews your application for possible interviews, you have to either have something that draws them in and makes them say, "Ya, I want/need to meet this guy." or they have to say, "He is low risk enough that its worth getting him in here to see if he will fit."

I would examine your ECs. To me you are dominated by 'neutral' ECs. While by itself that is not a problem, it becomes one if you have sub-standard academics and nothing else on your application going for you.

Originally posted here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-take-next-year-after-junior-year-off.1113782/

Understand that what I'm about to talk about is a very fuzzy topic. I'm putting boundaries on things that really don't have boundaries and explaining a thought process that is largely subconscious... There are three broad categories of ECs. Leisure activities, neutral, and altruistic. There is nothing wrong with enjoying or doing any of them. However, there is a reason adcoms are looking for certain kinds of activities. Medicine is a lot of science, but it is by and large a people profession. It is also a profession that is dominated by the concept of helping other people. No, you don't have to be the next Mother Theresa, but a good part of your time will be in the service of others. If you can't handle that, you will be miserable. No, it does not make you a bad person. It just makes you a poor fit for what most physicians do every day. No matter how bad of a day I'm having in the hospital, virtually every single one of my patients is having a worse day, after all, they are in the hospital, seeing me. Certainly not every physician's practice is like that, but most physicians will have something similar to say about helping their patients.

• Leisure activities are those that you do for yourself. The focus is on you. Most hobbies/sports fall into this category. I would say that if you could potentially scratch out an EC and it wouldn't negatively impact other people or your life, then it is leisure. We like to see people that have leisure activities. Being able to have fun and focus on non-academic things is important. Everyone wants to be around people with hobbies, it makes for a more interesting class.
• Neutral activities are things that you have to do. For example, if you have to work because you are paying for school or supporting family etc. It is a limitation on your time that is just something that has to be done. This is something that needs to be considered when looking at GPAs or how involved people are in other activities.
• Altruistic activities are things where the focus is on other people. Things that better the lives of others primarily. Things that demonstrate that you spend at least a small amount of your time thinking about the needs of others instead of your own. This is where the, "What % of your time do you spend doing different things?" comes in. I'm not saying that someone that devotes <1% of their free time to others can't be a good physician or get enjoyment out of it. But, everything else being equal, I'd strongly prefer someone that is much higher as I think that their chances of success are much higher.

Regarding productivity. Virtually any activity can be productive. It is more about what you do with an activity than what the activity itself is. For instance, if you are in research for 2000 hours, what did you produce? Conceivably, someone paid you or you got academic credits, or at the very least you invested your time into it. So, what came of it? What tangibly shows that you weren't goofing off and getting nothing out of it. The easiest to appreciate are publications, posters, abstracts etc. Strong letters of recommendation are another. I'm not talking about a good letter, I'm talking about, "It is tragic that none of his work was published because he has made significant contributions to our lab including X, Y, and Z." And more importantly in a LOR like that, what is your analagous Wins Above Replacement, compared to if the lab hired someone else. I'm not that creative, so I'll go through the applications sitting on my desk right now and pick out the single most "productive" things I can find that they did before medical school.

Restructured soup kitchen, tripled meals served by reallocating resources.
Top 3 rank, nationally fencing
2 years research, x1 first author in low impact, 2 presentations
2 years research, x2 non-first author publications, one in Cell, the other PNAS
1 year research, x2 presentations, x1 award from presentation
3 months fundraising and 3 months (Summer) digging wells in Kenya
5 years habitat for humanity from HS to present
2 Summers teaching English in a Lebanese refugee camp

Yes, I cherry picked from ~30 applications. There are certainly a lot of people with very good scores that played video games, worked on their hobbies and are perfectly good people. But, there are also a lot of pretty amazing people out there doing a lot of amazing things. Being productive is about dedication, passion, hard work and perseverance. ie. what we want from our medical students. I interviewed at most of the top 10 as well as several other more local places. Virtually everyone you meet on the trail is going to be a good student. Some better than others. But, it was very obvious when talking to other applicants at the top schools that I was a small fish in a very big sea of stellar applicants.

So much gold. Thank you for taking the time to share!

 

[Mr. MCAT]

Wow, I am impressed and happy with all the responses. To answer many people's responses, I agree in that my application looks like I am lazy, especially in terms of volunteerism. I spent wayyyy too much time working/hanging out during my undergrad and not enough studying. Plus, I was dealing with some depression issues and blah blah (who doesn't, though?).

As for the Chile thing: correct me if I'm wrong, but I THINK this would come off as altruistic rather than rich white person going to vacation. I am going to Chile for 3.5 months, probably will be sent to a remote, undeserved area (I won't know for sure until two weeks prior to the beginning of the program), to teach English to students aged 5th-12th. I also won't be paid at all and, in fact, will be losing money to pay for my own plane ticket there. I will be working 36 hours per week teaching for free. I love teaching and I'm hoping this will show that I don't just do work for the money. Do you guys still not recommend it? I mean I definitely need more volunteerism on my app... Also, I plan to volunteer in Chile at other places, such as a hospital or homeless shelter, if possible.

Also, I will PM my PS to the people who requested it. Let me know what you think. It is very possible my personal statement just absolutely sucks.

I have had no institutional action except for a warning--my friend copied my work once from a class I had taken a year before--but UCSC (my undergrad) told me that was removed from my file. I have had no legal action taken against me.

Currently, I am just beginning in a lab. I also am going to be looking to get some shadowing experience and have begun emailing physicians. I will probably apply to some post-bacs, too, just in case my GPA is really holding me back.

FINALLY, I have some good news, and very coincidental. I received my first II this morning (actually, for some reason it got sent to my dad's email and he then sent it to me). I have an interview at Western Pomona 2/5/2015. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated! I know it seems weird that I would just happen to get an interview after posting this, but I promise this is my first interview and I JUST got it.

And THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYONE for the truthful and sometimes blunt feedback. I need it.

 

[dellprecision]

Just my two cents, but this is how I'm reading your last post. The bolded parts are you.

Wow, I am impressed and happy with all the responses. To answer many people's responses, I agree in that my application looks like I am lazy, especially in terms of volunteerism. I spent wayyyy too much time working/hanging out during my undergrad and not enough studying. Plus, I was dealing with some depression issues and blah blah (who doesn't, though?).

A lot of people don't. Quite a few people adjust rather quickly, and many make sure these issues don't affect their work. So far this implies poor study habits/decision making/stress-coping skills, all habits which may very likely come back to haunt you in medical school unless you can show that you've overcome these issues.

As for the Chile thing: correct me if I'm wrong, but I THINK this would come off as altruistic rather than rich white person going to vacation. I am going to Chile for 3.5 months, probably will be sent to a remote, undeserved area (I won't know for sure until two weeks prior to the beginning of the program), to teach English to students aged 5th-12th. I also won't be paid at all and, in fact, will be losing money to pay for my own plane ticket there. I will be working 36 hours per week teaching for free. I love teaching and I'm hoping this will show that I don't just do work for the money. Do you guys still not recommend it? I mean I definitely need more volunteerism on my app... Also, I plan to volunteer in Chile at other places, such as a hospital or homeless shelter, if possible.

I personally don't think it's that bad, but this also sounds like the kind of thing that only someone from a fairly well-off family can afford, and I also fail to see why you have to go to Chile (unless you just want to travel/experience a new culture, which is cool too).

Also, I will PM my PS to the people who requested it. Let me know what you think. It is very possible my personal statement just absolutely sucks.

No comment.

I have had no institutional action except for a warning--my friend copied my work once from a class I had taken a year before--but UCSC (my undergrad) told me that was removed from my file. I have had no legal action taken against me.

Assuming that nothing is on your file, then you should be good, but still, this demonstrates some questionable decision-making, in my opinion.

Currently, I am just beginning in a lab. I also am going to be looking to get some shadowing experience and have begun emailing physicians. I will probably apply to some post-bacs, too, just in case my GPA is really holding me back.

Couldn't hurt to try, I suppose. Post-baccs can be especially good if you're interested in applying DO your next cycle with grade replacement and all that (though other people have also brought up that you can just re-take courses at a local university for a lot less money). If you're dead set on MD's, and you're confident in your academic abilities, then it may not be a bad idea to look into SMP's as well, especially ones with linkages towards medical schools (but only go there if you are truly confident in your ability to master medical school level material).

FINALLY, I have some good news, and very coincidental. I received my first II this morning (actually, for some reason it got sent to my dad's email and he then sent it to me). I have an interview at Western Pomona 2/5/2015. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated! I know it seems weird that I would just happen to get an interview after posting this, but I promise this is my first interview and I JUST got it.

Why would your dad have gotten it unless you provided his email on your applications? I don't even know how any of my parents can get contacted by these schools.

And THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYONE for the truthful and sometimes blunt feedback. I need it.

Good luck!

 

[jamcat]

Just my two cents, but this is how I'm reading your last post. The bolded parts are you.

Wow, I am impressed and happy with all the responses. To answer many people's responses, I agree in that my application looks like I am lazy, especially in terms of volunteerism. I spent wayyyy too much time working/hanging out during my undergrad and not enough studying. Plus, I was dealing with some depression issues and blah blah (who doesn't, though?).

A lot of people don't. Quite a few people adjust rather quickly, and many make sure these issues don't affect their work. So far this implies poor study habits/decision making/stress-coping skills, all habits which may very likely come back to haunt you in medical school unless you can show that you've overcome these issues.

Good luck!

I actually read this as the OP was having a rough time, but recognizes that everyone has rough times, so accepts/agrees that his rough times are no excuse for the sub-stellar academic performance. I don't think he was saying that everybody's *grades* in undergrad are rough, just that everyone's *lives* are, and that some dealt with it better than others. He's admitting fault here, so I think you're actually on the same page.

OP, you've received great advice in this thread. It looks like you've been thoughtful, reflective, and receptive to the feedback of those here who have so graciously lent their expertise. That bodes well for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

 

[Winged Scapula]

FINALLY, I have some good news, and very coincidental. I received my first II this morning (actually, for some reason it got sent to my dad's email and he then sent it to me). I have an interview at Western Pomona 2/5/2015. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated! I know it seems weird that I would just happen to get an interview after posting this, but I promise this is my first interview and I JUST got it.

Uhmm....so is it possible that you used your dad's email address (for whatever reason) and invites have been going to his Junk Mail folder?

 

[Jay11jayjay]

Low GPA - high MCAT doesn't completely offset low GPA.

LOR's that aren't "good" or "great" or "strong" will not help you.

Your PS may have raised some eyebrows?

Lack of cold hard shadowing experience (scribe doesn't count) is usually an app killer.

You don't need research to get into med school (I got accepted without any research experience), but you do need to show longitudinal commitment to a few activities.

I was accepted at many MD schools with zero hours of so-called shadowing experience. I did spend 2 semesters in the ED working on a research project. But, I don't buy your point.

 

[jl lin]

It all depends on what you are doing. Being an ER scribe does not replace doing shadowing. As an ER scribe, you are performing a job, which in this context is a negative because it makes your focus performing a task, rather than learning about what you are getting into. You are exposed to the emergency room and health care administered there, which is very different from how 90%+ physicians practice. The purpose of shadowing is that you see what the daily life of a physician is. Interacting with patients, the paperwork, the conferences, the business, the science, the art, everything. Most jobs working at a hospital don't fulfill that. I interviewed someone a few years back for medical school who had 3 years of experience working as a ER tech and then as a Rad tech. They wrote down that they had something like 2500 hours of "clinical experience", but after talking to them, it was clear that those jobs were just that, jobs. They did the job very well, but that means they showed up, did their job and clocked out, nothing more. I want it to be clear, there is nothing wrong with that inherently. But if you are going to try to double count hours that you were paid during, you better have gotten something actually out of them. This is like someone doing 'research' by washing glassware in a lab. Being in the hospital and being able to smell the patients is one thing, but actually knowing what physicians do is something else. You can't replace that experience. Are there people who get in without that? Of course. But, the vast majority of admissions committees want to know that you at least tried to figure out what being a physician is like.



This is how I read your application:
3.48/38
Zero research
ER scribe
Zero altruism oriented volunteering
Below average personal statement
Below average LOR
Zero physician shadowing
Reasonable work history
ORM

Summary: Asymmetric academics, time outside of academics is largely spent working for pay despite not supporting family/others. No big unique factors.

3.48/38 applying widely and broadly is more than sufficient to get into medical school from an academic perspective. The fact that you had zero interviews indicates that something on your application stopped people from interviewing you. IAs/Criminal issues aside (assume that you don't have these), I think the biggest question for me is why should a medical school use a spot on you? What do you bring to the table that will help my medical school class. It is surprising that out of 24 schools, not a single one thought that your package outside of your stats was possibly what they were looking for. It is possible that a single something is holding you back, but those are usually pretty easy to suss out since there aren't that many that can do that.

If you have a lower GPA, you are competing with a lot more people. Your ECs have to be at a minimum cohesive and complete. Your personal statement and your LOR need to be at a minimum positive (not just saying, "He is a nice guy"). If you have an above average GPA/MCAT, the bar is a little lower, smaller deficiencies in an application are less magnified. You do NOT need some big unique thing to get you into medical school. But, you have multiple areas in your application that are sub-standard. When someone reviews your application for possible interviews, you have to either have something that draws them in and makes them say, "Ya, I want/need to meet this guy." or they have to say, "He is low risk enough that its worth getting him in here to see if he will fit."

I would examine your ECs. To me you are dominated by 'neutral' ECs. While by itself that is not a problem, it becomes one if you have sub-standard academics and nothing else on your application going for you.

Originally posted here: http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/should-i-take-next-year-after-junior-year-off.1113782/

Understand that what I'm about to talk about is a very fuzzy topic. I'm putting boundaries on things that really don't have boundaries and explaining a thought process that is largely subconscious... There are three broad categories of ECs. Leisure activities, neutral, and altruistic. There is nothing wrong with enjoying or doing any of them. However, there is a reason adcoms are looking for certain kinds of activities. Medicine is a lot of science, but it is by and large a people profession. It is also a profession that is dominated by the concept of helping other people. No, you don't have to be the next Mother Theresa, but a good part of your time will be in the service of others. If you can't handle that, you will be miserable. No, it does not make you a bad person. It just makes you a poor fit for what most physicians do every day. No matter how bad of a day I'm having in the hospital, virtually every single one of my patients is having a worse day, after all, they are in the hospital, seeing me. Certainly not every physician's practice is like that, but most physicians will have something similar to say about helping their patients.

• Leisure activities are those that you do for yourself. The focus is on you. Most hobbies/sports fall into this category. I would say that if you could potentially scratch out an EC and it wouldn't negatively impact other people or your life, then it is leisure. We like to see people that have leisure activities. Being able to have fun and focus on non-academic things is important. Everyone wants to be around people with hobbies, it makes for a more interesting class.
• Neutral activities are things that you have to do. For example, if you have to work because you are paying for school or supporting family etc. It is a limitation on your time that is just something that has to be done. This is something that needs to be considered when looking at GPAs or how involved people are in other activities.
• Altruistic activities are things where the focus is on other people. Things that better the lives of others primarily. Things that demonstrate that you spend at least a small amount of your time thinking about the needs of others instead of your own. This is where the, "What % of your time do you spend doing different things?" comes in. I'm not saying that someone that devotes <1% of their free time to others can't be a good physician or get enjoyment out of it. But, everything else being equal, I'd strongly prefer someone that is much higher as I think that their chances of success are much higher.

Regarding productivity. Virtually any activity can be productive. It is more about what you do with an activity than what the activity itself is. For instance, if you are in research for 2000 hours, what did you produce? Conceivably, someone paid you or you got academic credits, or at the very least you invested your time into it. So, what came of it? What tangibly shows that you weren't goofing off and getting nothing out of it. The easiest to appreciate are publications, posters, abstracts etc. Strong letters of recommendation are another. I'm not talking about a good letter, I'm talking about, "It is tragic that none of his work was published because he has made significant contributions to our lab including X, Y, and Z." And more importantly in a LOR like that, what is your analagous Wins Above Replacement, compared to if the lab hired someone else. I'm not that creative, so I'll go through the applications sitting on my desk right now and pick out the single most "productive" things I can find that they did before medical school.

Restructured soup kitchen, tripled meals served by reallocating resources.
Top 3 rank, nationally fencing
2 years research, x1 first author in low impact, 2 presentations
2 years research, x2 non-first author publications, one in Cell, the other PNAS
1 year research, x2 presentations, x1 award from presentation
3 months fundraising and 3 months (Summer) digging wells in Kenya
5 years habitat for humanity from HS to present
2 Summers teaching English in a Lebanese refugee camp

Yes, I cherry picked from ~30 applications. There are certainly a lot of people with very good scores that played video games, worked on their hobbies and are perfectly good people. But, there are also a lot of pretty amazing people out there doing a lot of amazing things. Being productive is about dedication, passion, hard work and perseverance. ie. what we want from our medical students. I interviewed at most of the top 10 as well as several other more local places. Virtually everyone you meet on the trail is going to be a good student. Some better than others. But, it was very obvious when talking to other applicants at the top schools that I was a small fish in a very big sea of stellar applicants.

I've got to save this^. One of the all-time best responses. 👍👍👍

 

[jl lin]

FINALLY, I have some good news, and very coincidental. I received my first II this morning (actually, for some reason it got sent to my dad's email and he then sent it to me). I have an interview at Western Pomona 2/5/2015. Any last minute advice would be greatly appreciated! I know it seems weird that I would just happen to get an interview after posting this, but I promise this is my first interview and I JUST got it.

And THANK YOU SO MUCH EVERYONE for the truthful and sometimes blunt feedback. I need it.

Hey, Mr. MCAT, really, good luck and all the best! And thanks for posting, b/c there is some really great stuff in this thread. 🙂

 

[Mr. MCAT]

I actually read this as the OP was having a rough time, but recognizes that everyone has rough times, so accepts/agrees that his rough times are no excuse for the sub-stellar academic performance. I don't think he was saying that everybody's *grades* in undergrad are rough, just that everyone's *lives* are, and that some dealt with it better than others. He's admitting fault here, so I think you're actually on the same page.

OP, you've received great advice in this thread. It looks like you've been thoughtful, reflective, and receptive to the feedback of those here who have so graciously lent their expertise. That bodes well for you, and I wish you the best of luck!

Yeah that's exactly right. Everyone has rough lives, I just let it get the best of me sometimes and that was my mistake.

As for the Chile thing, I still don't see how admissions would see it as a rich white person thing. I'm paying for my own ticket, having worked for it with my own money, to live in Chile with almost no money (certainly not earning any money). I'll be living with a host family who have been given a grant through the country to help offset the cost of me living with them. It's the English Opens Doors Program, if anyone wants to look into it. Seems like admissions committees would love this sort of thing, though that's not why I'm doing it necessarily, I do want to experience a new culture and I want to do something outside of my comfort zone. And I want to learn Spanish better.

Alas, no, unfortunately my dad hasn't been getting all my responses or something like that. For some reason, only Western has been sending him stuff instead of me. All the other schools I applied to have been giving me updates via my own email.

 

[PlasticBag]

Yeah that's exactly right. Everyone has rough lives, I just let it get the best of me sometimes and that was my mistake.

As for the Chile thing, I still don't see how admissions would see it as a rich white person thing. I'm paying for my own ticket, having worked for it with my own money, to live in Chile with almost no money (certainly not earning any money). I'll be living with a host family who have been given a grant through the country to help offset the cost of me living with them. It's the English Opens Doors Program, if anyone wants to look into it. Seems like admissions committees would love this sort of thing, though that's not why I'm doing it necessarily, I do want to experience a new culture and I want to do something outside of my comfort zone. And I want to learn Spanish better.

Alas, no, unfortunately my dad hasn't been getting all my responses or something like that. For some reason, only Western has been sending him stuff instead of me. All the other schools I applied to have been giving me updates via my own email.

I don't think it will be viewed as a negative but it won't give an altruistic impression either. It's just a mild positive: instead of going backpacking and partying for three months, he decided to do something good for the local community on his vacation. It's just that teaching those kids is secondary to traveling and "exotic" experience. You know, teaching immigrant kids in your local community wouldn't quite be as thrilling, right?

Don't get me wrong, I'm saying this only from the perspective of how I would look at it if I saw it on an application (but im just a fellow premed). My personal opinion is that your trip sounds pretty amazing and not everything you do has to be a self-sacrificing act. But just keep in mind that it might not be a "wow" factor on you app.

At least it's not a medical mission and you are actually qualified to do something positive for the local community.

 

[MrLogan13]

Yeah that's exactly right. Everyone has rough lives, I just let it get the best of me sometimes and that was my mistake.

As for the Chile thing, I still don't see how admissions would see it as a rich white person thing. I'm paying for my own ticket, having worked for it with my own money, to live in Chile with almost no money (certainly not earning any money). I'll be living with a host family who have been given a grant through the country to help offset the cost of me living with them. It's the English Opens Doors Program, if anyone wants to look into it. Seems like admissions committees would love this sort of thing, though that's not why I'm doing it necessarily, I do want to experience a new culture and I want to do something outside of my comfort zone. And I want to learn Spanish better.

Alas, no, unfortunately my dad hasn't been getting all my responses or something like that. For some reason, only Western has been sending him stuff instead of me. All the other schools I applied to have been giving me updates via my own email.

It's viewed that way because not many people are able to do it. If you want to teach English and improve your Spanish, there's a large population of underserved in our own California communities that can fulfill those things. It raises the question, why travel across the world to do those things when there's a need here?

I don't think it will be negative, but I don't think it'll look as good as you think it will.

 

[Bovary]

It's viewed that way because not many people are able to do it. If you want to teach English and improve your Spanish, there's a large population of underserved in our own California communities that can fulfill those things. It raises the question, why travel across the world to do those things when there's a need here?

I don't think it will be negative, but I don't think it'll look as good as you think it will.

Because living in Chile for three months is far different than living in central CA for three months. In Chile you'll get total language immersion, even in most of Santiago; this won't be the case in CA. The culture of Chile is not that of central California, and so I hope we can set aside med school applications for a moment to allow for some personal enrichment. Maybe in the eyes of some ADCOMs it looks marginally "worse" to go to Chile, but when you bolster your application and get in somewhere next year regardless, you'll be glad to have seen a giant strip (from the arid north to frozen south) of South America.

 

[jamcat]

It's viewed that way because not many people are able to do it. If you want to teach English and improve your Spanish, there's a large population of underserved in our own California communities that can fulfill those things. It raises the question, why travel across the world to do those things when there's a need here?

I don't think it will be negative, but I don't think it'll look as good as you think it will.

As somebody who does not come from money and who took out loans for undergrad but who has a rich sense of wonder, curiosity, and adventure, and has self-funded international trips, can we please put to rest the idea that only rich people get to travel? Yes, only rich people get to do the 2-week mission trip where you have to pay a $5,000 "program fee" in addition to paying for your own way, and I think that's where travel gets a bad rep. But with a bit of ingenuity, there are plenty of ways to travel without having rich parents. Unless you are supporting a family, you can make international travel happen if it's a priority. I kind of bristle when some of my friends, who live in apartments twice the price of my dump, who go out to eat three times a week, say "Oh my god, I'd *love* to travel as much as you, but I just could never afford it!"

As for why travel across the world to do something when there's a need in the local community, you could really apply that question to a number of activities. Working on one need in this world does not mean you deny the existence of other needs--there are plenty to go around! Why are more medical schools putting such an emphasis on global health these days when not every person in the U.S. is getting adequate health care? Why go to New Orleans to help rebuild after Katrina when there are Habitat for Humanity needs in your local community? Why would anybody ever think of going into the Peace Corps when there are lots of people who need help in America?

It's no secret that Peace Corps volunteers get way more out of their experience personally than any actual help they give to the community. In fact, most of them say that they totally didn't make a difference in the world, but that being in the PC taught them skills that will help them make a difference in the world in the future. As somebody who nearly went into the Peace Corps myself but ended up working at another international NGO instead, that's the first thing RPCVs will tell you: Don't do it thinking you're going to make any difference at all; you'll end up frustrated. Do do it if you want to learn a lot, have a great adventure, and get a great foundation for making a difference later when you have the skills and degrees to do so. Is that really so bad?

As a minor example, it's difficult to become fluent in another language in the U.S.; it's generally recommended that language learners travel to a country in which their language is spoken to gain fluency. If the OP goes to Chile and becomes fluent in Spanish, doesn't this increase his potential to help the large underserved Spanish-speaking population in the future?

So perhaps that's where adcoms find fault with international programs. Perhaps they find fault with the people who think that living in another country makes them morally superior or something, just this side of Mother Theresa. That's obviously untrue. But to deny that, when coupled with community engagement in the US, international experience has the potential to extraordinarily enrich a person's skill set and perspective of both local and international issues in ways that can't be completely replicated in the U.S. isn't, I think, very accurate. I'm right with you ridiculing the two-week $5,000 mission trips. But not all international positions are like that, and I think it's to all of our benefits not to paint them with one brush.

 

[DokterMom]

As somebody who does not come from money and who took out loans for undergrad but who has a rich sense of wonder, curiosity, and adventure, and has self-funded international trips, can we please put to rest the idea that only rich people get to travel? Yes, only rich people get to do the 2-week mission trip where you have to pay a $5,000 "program fee" in addition to paying for your own way, and I think that's where travel gets a bad rep. But with a bit of ingenuity, there are plenty of ways to travel without having rich parents. Unless you are supporting a family, you can make international travel happen if it's a priority. I kind of bristle when some of my friends, who live in apartments twice the price of my dump, who go out to eat three times a week, say "Oh my god, I'd *love* to travel as much as you, but I just could never afford it!"

As for why travel across the world to do something when there's a need in the local community, you could really apply that question to a number of activities. Working on one need in this world does not mean you deny the existence of other needs--there are plenty to go around! Why are more medical schools putting such an emphasis on global health these days when not every person in the U.S. is getting adequate health care? Why go to New Orleans to help rebuild after Katrina when there are Habitat for Humanity needs in your local community? Why would anybody ever think of going into the Peace Corps when there are lots of people who need help in America?

It's no secret that Peace Corps volunteers get way more out of their experience personally than any actual help they give to the community. In fact, most of them say that they totally didn't make a difference in the world, but that being in the PC taught them skills that will help them make a difference in the world in the future. As somebody who nearly went into the Peace Corps myself but ended up working at another international NGO instead, that's the first thing RPCVs will tell you: Don't do it thinking you're going to make any difference at all; you'll end up frustrated. Do do it if you want to learn a lot, have a great adventure, and get a great foundation for making a difference later when you have the skills and degrees to do so. Is that really so bad?

As a minor example, it's difficult to become fluent in another language in the U.S.; it's generally recommended that language learners travel to a country in which their language is spoken to gain fluency. If the OP goes to Chile and becomes fluent in Spanish, doesn't this increase his potential to help the large underserved Spanish-speaking population in the future?

So perhaps that's where adcoms find fault with international programs. Perhaps they find fault with the people who think that living in another country makes them morally superior or something, just this side of Mother Theresa. That's obviously untrue. But to deny that, when coupled with community engagement in the US, international experience has the potential to extraordinarily enrich a person's skill set and perspective of both local and international issues in ways that can't be completely replicated in the U.S. isn't, I think, very accurate. I'm right with you ridiculing the two-week $5,000 mission trips. But not all international positions are like that, and I think it's to all of our benefits not to paint them with one brush.

Living in another country is absolutely a wonderful and enriching experience. Total immersion in another culture and language offers truly unique perspectives that you just can't get living in your 'same old' environment in the US -- or even in a different US environment. On that front, I couldn't agree with you more.

Traveling abroad is enormously beneficial to the person traveling.

The point being made here is that OP's planned trip is something that will benefit him at least as much as it benefits the people he is going there to teach. That's certainly not a bad thing -- but it's not something that's going to make an AdCom sit up and say "Wow! What a humanitarian! He really has a passion for helping the less fortunate." If he's trying to demonstrate service and altruism, a service trip that overwhelmingly benefits others (not the OP) is the way to do it.

I'm not suggesting that the OP doesn't care about helping and/or serving others -- just that by virtue of being international rather than domestic, the trip has a taint of self-interest.

 

[jamcat]

OK, I can buy that. But I've seen several times how adcoms love Peace Corps folk, and I'd hope that you'd apply the same rigorous standard to them. Wonderfully enriching personally, but not really having much of an effect on the communities they're trying to serve. What it does do, as what all international work can do, is give somebody the background and skills that they can apply later in their career.

I'd also argue the very same is true for nearly all volunteer activities, the US and abroad. For example, I'd argue that a pre-med teaching English to a migrant worker, or working at a soup kitchen for the homeless, *should* be getting more out of it than the person "simply" learning English, or "simply" getting a meal they would otherwise be getting from someone else; otherwise they're not a very reflective person.

So when it comes down to it, all volunteering can be construed as "tainted with self-interest," even the check-off-the-box soup kitchen volunteering that is apparently preferable to international work. Just as you can't distinguish the people whose primary motivation in volunteering abroad is actually volunteering from those whose primary motivation is an adventure, you can't distinguish the people whose primary motivation in volunteering state-side is to serve others from those who wanted to get into medical school.

Would it make a difference from the adcom side if, for example, the OP had a long history of volunteering with some underserved Spanish-speaking population in undergrad and now wants to go to Chile to teach, with the goal of both volunteering and improving his Spanish so he can better serve this population in the future?

 

[dellprecision]

Peace Corps is different, in my opinion, since it's a much longer time commitment and it forces one to go to an underserved part of the world, and it's a very well-established and renowned program. The fact that it's compensated also increases the socioeconomic diversity of candidates that it can attract since volunteers won't lose money by joining.

The reason I stated earlier as to why Chile sounded a little like a rich kid's activity (which OP somewhat reinforced) is that not everybody can afford to do that. The fact that he's not being paid (obviously since it's volunteering) and has to pay for his own travel expenses only further supports that since someone without money would be much less likely to be able to afford all that.

I still think it's a pretty cool activity since it'll help OP grow and learn as a person and applicant. In terms of short-term impact, going to Chile will almost definitely produce less good than tutoring in California, but in terms of long-term impact, Chile can be much better if it helps OP gain a deeper sense of cultural competency that he otherwise wouldn't have gained in the states that he can bring towards the profession.

 

[mimelim]

OK, I can buy that. But I've seen several times how adcoms love Peace Corps folk, and I'd hope that you'd apply the same rigorous standard to them. Wonderfully enriching personally, but not really having much of an effect on the communities they're trying to serve. What it does do, as what all international work can do, is give somebody the background and skills that they can apply later in their career.

I'd also argue the very same is true for nearly all volunteer activities, the US and abroad. For example, I'd argue that a pre-med teaching English to a migrant worker, or working at a soup kitchen for the homeless, *should* be getting more out of it than the person "simply" learning English, or "simply" getting a meal they would otherwise be getting from someone else; otherwise they're not a very reflective person.

So when it comes down to it, all volunteering can be construed as "tainted with self-interest," even the check-off-the-box soup kitchen volunteering that is apparently preferable to international work. Just as you can't distinguish the people whose primary motivation in volunteering abroad is actually volunteering from those whose primary motivation is an adventure, you can't distinguish the people whose primary motivation in volunteering state-side is to serve others from those who wanted to get into medical school.

Would it make a difference from the adcom side if, for example, the OP had a long history of volunteering with some underserved Spanish-speaking population in undergrad and now wants to go to Chile to teach, with the goal of both volunteering and improving his Spanish so he can better serve this population in the future?

Okay, let me put this bluntly.

Going to Chile for 3 months is not even remotely close to going to the Peace Corps. Peace Corps traditionally are 27 month programs. They are also typically assignments. The focus on helping others, not self improvement. And, I would be very careful how you insult the Peace Corps by saying that they don't have much effect on a community. This is very simple. Would going to Chile for 3 months be a negative on your application? No. Are there far better things that you can do with your time? Yes. It is that simple.

 

[jamcat]

Mimelim, I don't think I made myself clear. I don't mean to insult the Peace Corps at all; I think it's wonderful and I nearly did it myself. I worked in international development before deciding to attend medical school, and I have loads of co-workers and friends who are RPCVs, and the NGO I worked for worked very closely with PVCs. I'm literally sitting next to two RPCVs (my roommates) right now.

Literally every single one says that you need to go into the PC knowing that the primary benefit will be to you, not to the world. One of my PCV friends in an interviewer for the PC now and it's always a big red flag for her when an applicant thinks they're going to change the community in which they live. She makes sure they know at the outset that it isn't going to happen.

I love the PC, but my assessment isn't inaccurate; it's very informed. I'm not sure what you did before becoming a doctor, but I'm a non-trad who has worked professionally in international development. I think the PC should be a gigantic plus in applying to med school, not because they changed the world, but because of how the experience changed them.

Okay, let me put this bluntly.
And, I would be very careful how you insult the Peace Corps by saying that they don't have much effect on a community.

Again, I guess you don't have much involvement with the PC, because the *Peace Corps* makes it very clear to any applicant that they won't have much effect on the community. This isn't an insult *at all*. There are quite a few people who work in global health who think the PC is detrimental; I'm not one of them.

 

[jamcat]

Oh, and I wasn't comparing going to Chile for 3 months to being a PCV; I was suggesting that if the metric by which we judge an EC is that the community get out of it more than the volunteer does, that metric is inaccurate. Any metric that that would put the 3-month stint in Chile on the same level as a PC term is off, because they're obviously so different. So we need to amend how we judge ECs.

Then again, I'm just a humanitarian who dies a little each time I read about pre-meds trying to figure out what volunteering would look good on their application.

 

[ridethecliche]

Okay, let me put this bluntly.

Going to Chile for 3 months is not even remotely close to going to the Peace Corps. Peace Corps traditionally are 27 month programs. They are also typically assignments. The focus on helping others, not self improvement. And, I would be very careful how you insult the Peace Corps by saying that they don't have much effect on a community. This is very simple. Would going to Chile for 3 months be a negative on your application? No. Are there far better things that you can do with your time? Yes. It is that simple.

I insult the peace corps by saying it's the pretty face of American imperialism. It's that simple.

 

[jl lin]

So, listen, there are cases to be made either way. If you feel strongly led to go and work in Chile, go for it. There's a lot of comfort in staying home to volunteer. Less of a risk factor too. Just be sure to share what it was that made it very compelling for you to go. What was valuable about the experience? And make sure you are doing volunteering on your home/local level. More resources go to America that any where else in the world. That alone shares the reason for reaching out beyond our borders. Plus, 3 months is a good stretch of time for a volunteering experience. I am drawn to Haiti, even though it's seemingly forever one perpetual mess.

Do what you feel led to do. These trips are by no means necessarily vacations. LOL

To Mr. MCAT and anyone else feeling compelled to be a part, even small part, of global outreach, GO FOR IT! You may find a lifetime connection and may even be a part of bigger efforts in the future for the particular area. Just don't forsake the homeland. 🙂 We help people one patient and one community at a time.

Ask yourself this question. Would you feel led and compelled to go there and work and be exposed to whatever--away from the comforts of home, even if you weren't applying to medical school and adcom members wouldn't be evaluating your experiences for medical school acceptances? If you would do it anyway, I say go!

 

[On Eagle's Wings]

The Chile trip sounds like decent idea. International work is often blasted on SDN as vacation and tourism, but it can actually give your application a boost if you actually focus on altruism and helping people. You will also need to ensure you write a good description of the activity in your application and show you actually did something serious and were not going there for a vacation. The biggest activity on my application was 11+ combined weeks of medical missions in Central America over 3 years time. I wrote about it prominently in my PS, secondaries, and my activity descriptions. The result: 3 II and 1 acceptance all from CA schools.

Mr. MCAT, the chile trip does not sound like a bad idea. Just make sure you actually do something to help people down there and are able to write a good description about it that shows you are committed to altruism and helping the under-served.

 

[Edv14]

I'm glad to hear you got an interview OP.
So would being a scribe who works with a doctor in their office all day (instead of the ED) count as shadowing? I am planning to seek additional shadowing experience, but I feel like I'm getting a lot of the same kind of experience as you would get with shadowing. I'm there to do a job of course and that does require me to focus, but I essentially spend the entire day with the doctor I scribe for and I see everything from paperwork, to calling other hospitals/physicians, to working with the medical staff, happy patients, unhappy patients... It seems to be a very good way to get a sense of what being a doctor is like, especially if you do it for an extended period.