What went wrong? Help!

[RogueBanana]

Isn't the consensus that if you have clinical volunteering ( not work or shadowing) , then not having non clinical volunteering isn't a deal breaker? That seems soooo nitpicky of the AdComs...

I mean,

N=1 here, but anecdotally speaking I did not list any specific non-clinical volunteering activities on my primary. I had 600+ hours over several years of very meaningful clinical volunteering and I did make a note of holding a leadership role in a service-based fraternity. I did do volunteer work, but I failed to list it on my app being an uninformed pre-med and not realizing the importance of non-clinical work. I was still able to make it in, which I am very grateful for.

That being said, I truly feel that I would have had a significantly greater number of interviews had I listed sustained non-clinical volunteering.

At the end of the day, I think OP shot themselves in the foot by not listing volunteering. That resulted in only 3 interviews when they could have easily had 5-6.

From there, OP didn't have the interview / interpersonal skills to "make up" for the weirdness flaws @DokterMom pointed out.

It was a bit of a perfect storm situation.

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[mwsapphire]

I mean,

N=1 here, but anecdotally speaking I did not list any specific non-clinical volunteering activities on my primary. I had 600+ hours over several years of very meaningful clinical volunteering and I did make a note of holding a leadership role in a service-based fraternity. I did do volunteer work, but I failed to list it on my app being an uninformed pre-med and not realizing the importance of non-clinical work. I was still able to make it in, which I am very grateful for.

That being said, I truly feel that I would have had a significantly greater number of interviews had I listed sustained non-clinical volunteering.

At the end of the day, I think OP shot themselves in the foot by not listing volunteering. That resulted in only 3 interviews when they could have easily had 5-6.

From there, OP didn't have the interview / interpersonal skills to "make up" for the weirdness flaws @DokterMom pointed out.

It was a bit of a perfect storm situation.

I better start adding non clinical volunteering O.O

 

[Dr.Sticks]

I better start adding non clinical volunteering O.O

Yep!!!

 

[RogueBanana]

I better start adding non clinical volunteering O.O

Please do.

 

[mwsapphire]

Yep!!!

Actually, I do food drive work as a family at my local masjid...does that count? I'll have hardly 100 hours by the time I apply though.

 

[ciestar]

I better start adding non clinical volunteering O.O

My nonclinical volunteering was a focal point at basically every interview I had last year. My LizzyM was only a 68, so I had very average stats and received 10 II.

 

[caffeinemia]

I think that a LOR and/or lack of non-clinical volunteer service were the culprits here. I recommend waiting until 2018 to apply. Meanwhile, get a job and spend at least 2 hours/wk for 52 weeks on a community service activity that is not clinical.

In my opinion, this latter part is BS. Yes, yes, LizzyM is an adcom at one more place than I am, so take my input for whatever you think it's worth, but I am highly skeptical that any person who is so academically qualified and has taken the time to go explore medicine is not qualified to get into medical school because of not enough soup kitchen.

OP, I'd argue your list is very top heavy and in some very in-demand locales. It could just be that you were out-matched at some of these places and had no in-state preference at others... Vermont? Colorado? I'd say apply more broadly and keep doing what you love. Who cares if you like raising horses or sheep or whatever instead of packing cans in a box.

Finally, there are subtle personal quirks/qualities that may be really hard to self assess. You might suck at writing or interviewing and not even know it. Strangers on the interwebs are not very reliable in assessing these things either -- perhaps try a professional interview coaching session and just get an idea as to what your strengths and weaknesses are...

Finally think carefully about your LORs. It's the surprise element in your application and perhaps it might be useful to get a few extra LORs and send different samplings to different places (I dunno if that's even possible, but that's what I did for residency apps just to hedge against being sunk by any one letter).

 

[Dr.Sticks]

Actually, I do food drive work as a family at my local masjid...does that count? I'll have hardly 100 hours by the time I apply though.

Is that religious volunteering or something?

Anyways I haven't done any non-clinical yet, but what I am looking to do is volunteer with an underserved population.(homeless shelter, or something)
I am also considering applying to AmeriCorp after college.(mostly because I want to do it)

 

[RogueBanana]

Actually, I do food drive work as a family at my local masjid...does that count? I'll have hardly 100 hours by the time I apply though.

if you do it regularly then it is meaningful.

Adcoms would rather see you dedicate 1-2 hours per week or 5-10 per month OVER TIME
than have 100 hours of volunteering all done in the month prior to primaries going out.

 

[RogueBanana]

Is that religious volunteering or something?

Anyways I haven't done any non-clinical yet, but what I am looking to do is volunteer with an underserved population.(homeless shelter, or something)
I am also considering applying to AmeriCorp after college.(mostly because I want to do it)

I volunteer at a local inner city highschool as a tutor. I recommend it, if only for the valuable insights you get when you realize that medicine and teaching are one in the same.

 

[Dr.Sticks]

In my opinion, this latter part is BS. Yes, yes, LizzyM is an adcom at one more place than I am, so take my input for whatever you think it's worth, but I am highly skeptical that any person who is so academically qualified and has taken the time to go explore medicine is not qualified to get into medical school because of not enough soup kitchen.

OP, I'd argue your list is very top heavy and in some very in-demand locales. It could just be that you were out-matched at some of these places and had no in-state preference at others... Vermont? Colorado? I'd say apply more broadly and keep doing what you love. Who cares if you like raising horses or sheep or whatever instead of packing cans in a box.

Finally, there are subtle personal quirks/qualities that may be really hard to self assess. You might suck at writing or interviewing and not even know it. Strangers on the interwebs are not very reliable in assessing these things either -- perhaps try a professional interview coaching session and just get an idea as to what your strengths and weaknesses are...

Finally think carefully about your LORs. It's the surprise element in your application and perhaps it might be useful to get a few extra LORs and send different samplings to different places (I dunno if that's even possible, but that's what I did for residency apps just to hedge against being sunk by any one letter).

Lack of humility gets a lot of people rejected.
Medical Schools want people who can connect and show care/understanding for others, not just people who can get good grades.
For example; I bet Sheldon Cooper could get a 528 MCAT and a 4.0 GPA and produce thousands of hours of research
If I was an admissions guy I would probably reject him
Why? He would probably suck as a doctor because he can't relate to others, he believes he is superior and too good to interact with others.

In my clinical volunteering positionl I interact with people who may not be perfect people but I have to show them the same care and understanding as I would to anyone else.

Volunteering in settings like that shows adcoms that you aren't a snob and are willing to help the less fortunate.

 

[caffeinemia]

Lack of humility gets a lot of people rejected.
Medical Schools want people who can connect and show care/understanding for others, not just people who can get good grades.
For example; I bet Sheldon Cooper could get a 528 MCAT and a 4.0 GPA and produce thousands of hours of research
If I was an admissions guy I would probably reject him
Why? He would probably suck as a doctor because he can't relate to others, he believes he is superior and too good to interact with others.

In my clinical volunteering positionl I interact with people who may not be perfect people but I have to show them the same care and understanding as I would to anyone else.

Volunteering in settings like that shows adcoms that you aren't a snob and are willing to help the less fortunate.

OP's got plenty of volunteering experience -- not necessarily non-clinical, so I don't know what point you're trying to make. The difference between clinical and non-clinical -- or even human versus non-human - is quite frankly ludicrous.

 

[LizzyM]

Isn't the consensus that if you have clinical volunteering ( not work or shadowing) , then not having non clinical volunteering isn't a deal breaker? That seems soooo nitpicky of the AdComs...

Clinical volunteering is clinical and it checks that box. You do it because you are interested in clinical exposure. You do it because you want to see if you like the clinical environment and can stand working with patients.

Non-clinical volunteering doesn't involve patients. It gets you no exposure to your chosen profession. You do it because you have to do it for admission (grudgingly) or you do it because you like to help people and you feel compassion for people in need and you feel compelled to do what you can to help. Is it too nitpicky of the AdComs to select applicants who walk the walk when it comes to helping people in need?

 

[Dr.Sticks]

OP's got plenty of volunteering experience -- not necessarily non-clinical, so I don't know what point you're trying to make. The difference between clinical and non-clinical -- or even human versus non-human - is quite frankly ludicrous.

I'm not talking about OP
I am replying to the assertion that @LizzyM is wrong about importance of volunteering.

 

[dragoon]

Non-clinical volunteering doesn't involve patients. It gets you no exposure to your chosen profession. You do it because you have to do it for admission (grudgingly) or you do it because you like to help people and you feel compassion for people in need and you feel compelled to do what you can to help. Is it too nitpicky of the AdComs to select applicants who walk the walk when it comes to helping people in need?

It's just that, if you have a lot of clinical volunteering, does it make sense that you would have to also have non-clinical volunteering, just for the sake of having it? Can't you show "compassion for people in need and feel compellted to do what you can to help" in the clinical volunteering as well?

 

[caffeinemia]

Clinical volunteering is clinical and it checks that box. You do it because you are interested in clinical exposure. You do it because you want to see if you like the clinical environment and can stand working with patients.

Non-clinical volunteering doesn't involve patients. It gets you no exposure to your chosen profession. You do it because you have to do it for admission (grudgingly) or you do it because you like to help people and you feel compassion for people in need and you feel compelled to do what you can to help. Is it too nitpicky of the AdComs to select applicants who walk the walk when it comes to helping people in need?

yes. and by no means a hard and fast rule. and in my opinion - which everyone is free to disagree with -- unsound advice to give to a candidate who appears to be very qualified, notwithstanding any unknown personality or professional anomalies.

 

[LizzyM]

yes. and by no means a hard and fast rule. and in my opinion - which everyone is free to disagree with -- unsound advice to give to a candidate who appears to be very qualified, notwithstanding any unknown personality or professional anomalies.

A candidate who appears very qualified and who is, nonetheless, a re-applicant. Unknown personality or professional anomalies we can't identify in this forum but the lack of non-clinical service was a gap that 31 schools may have noticed and may have had an issue with.

 

[LizzyM]

It's just that, if you have a lot of clinical volunteering, does it make sense that you would have to also have non-clinical volunteering, just for the sake of having it? Can't you show "compassion for people in need and feel compellted to do what you can to help" in the clinical volunteering as well?

There is always the perception that you are doing it because you like clinical settings and you like being in the world of doctors and medicine and you are less interested in serving people in need. Serving the needy outside of a clinical setting shows that you are willing to help even when it doesn't get you "clinical service" points.

I know docs who go into schools as volunteers to give talks to kids. I know one who volunteered as a grade school tutor after retiring from medical practice (and he was an adcom member). If you like helping others, you will make it part of your life throughout your life, and not just because it pays well or is your job.

 

[ciestar]

Clinical volunteering is clinical and it checks that box. You do it because you are interested in clinical exposure. You do it because you want to see if you like the clinical environment and can stand working with patients.

Non-clinical volunteering doesn't involve patients. It gets you no exposure to your chosen profession. You do it because you have to do it for admission (grudgingly) or you do it because you like to help people and you feel compassion for people in need and you feel compelled to do what you can to help. Is it too nitpicky of the AdComs to select applicants who walk the walk when it comes to helping people in need?

My school has a REQUIREMENT during first year to do 16 hours of community service to the less fortunate (and this doesn't even seem like a lot). To say schools value it a lot is frankly an understatement. I am certain my nonclinical volunteering is what got me into school in the first place.

 

[Astra]

OP sorry about your current situation. When did you submit your application/secondaries? If you submitted somewhat late, that might explain your reduced number of II.

 

[ciestar]

There is always the perception that you are doing it because you like clinical settings and you like being in the world of doctors and medicine and you are less interested in serving people in need. Serving the needy outside of a clinical setting shows that you are willing to help even when it doesn't get you "clinical service" points.

I know docs who go into schools as volunteers to give talks to kids. I know one who volunteered as a grade school tutor after retiring from medical practice (and he was an adcom member). If you like helping others, you will make it part of your life throughout your life, and not just because it pays well or is your job.

I like working with kids. So, before I applied I worked pretty extensively with an organization serving kids that are homeless or in extreme poverty and I am fortunate enough that I am able to continue doing this when I can. This year, for my service requirement I tutor kids at a domestic abuse shelter. They have monthly "doctor's nights" where a pediatrician and other various medical professionals from the local children's hospital to give wellness exams to the kids there. Want to talk humbling? There it is. There is a harsh world outside most of our's and this gives you a glimpse at a patient population you may very well be serving.

 

[RogueBanana]

Also, since nobody has mentioned it,

OP, do you have any IA?

 

[Dr Seemi]

Hi all
I am currently nearing the end of my cycle with minimal hope for admittance. I have asked medical students and doctors for help in what went wrong and they are baffled. I am hoping for some help. I apologize for the information overload in advance, but at this point I need to scrutinize absolutely everything.

2016-2017 cycle (What I submitted going in)

Race: Asian
CA resident
Sci GPA: 3.88
MCAT: 520
Graduated July 2016

EC
ER volunteering=150 hours
Radiology Volunteering=150 hours
Radiology shadowing= 100 hours
Insect Research=2000 hours + 1st author paper (recently rejected and revised for resubmission)
Biology TA= 300 hours for 3 quarters
Raising animal hobby=unknown but exceeds 9999 hours
Various outdoor hobbies= 1500 hours during college

I had my PS evaluated by several medical students and the consensus was that it was good. It is highly unlikely to be the deal breaker. Because of this, I do not think my secondaries were particularly bad as I did not have to do extensive revisions on my PS.

School List (This is particularily long, 34 schools total.)
Einstein, Boston U, Case Western, Columbia, Drexel, Duke, Geisel, Harvard, Hofstra, Sinai, Buffalo, Hopkins, Keck, Mayo, NYU, Feinberg, U Penn, Stanford, U Vermont, ALL UC SOM, Pritzker, U Colorado, U Mich, U Pitts, U Rochester, U Wisc, Wash U, Cornell, Yale

Interviews
I interviewed at Keck early in the cycle but was waitlisted. I then interviewed at Wash U in October and have not heard back. Given the trend indicated in the WashU thread, I don't think I will get accepted. I recently interviewed at Case and was rejected. I plan to ask for feedback if possible.

Suspicions: I don't think my interview skills are a major issue as some of my interviewers gave great responses. Furthermore, I expected more interviews to be honest, which points to something else as the issue. Nevertheless, I will work on them for the upcoming cycle. At this point, I am suspecting a LOR sunk me but I don't think my writers are that cruel. I don't know what to believe. It could be the lack of nonclinical volunteering, but I did not think it would impact me this much. I am working on this currently.

Current Status
Miserable, but working to improve my app.
Volunteering at a food distribution organization (expected to have 40 hours before I move back home)
Volunteering as a nature observer (basically I note and report changes in local wildlife areas, expected 30 hours)
Volunteering as an English tutor for foreign visitors (expected 40 hours before I move)
Increased insect research hours (3100+ total currently, expected 3500+ by June)
Radiology Volunteering (ended during app cycle, total 190 hours)
ER Volunteering (180 currently, expected 300~400 before June)

Once I move back, I will look for a more permanent non clinical volunteering and a job to help pay back loans. I plan to apply both DO and MD schools for the upcoming cycle.

Any help or suggestions for improvements would be highly appreciated. Thank you for the help. If there's any crucial information I missed, let me know I will gladly add it.

Your extracurriculars are weird, lots of research in an off topic field make sure you almost seem like PHD candidate
Perhaps you are too
Grades are great
Clinical Volunteering is fine
I guess your no clinical volunteering is lacking
You are an ORM
Who knows about LORs

Basically your grades are great and that's what you have as your selling point. I don't see the fantastic rest of an app that guarantees interviews at top schools.

So since you should know this you should have applied to at minimum double the schools you applied and I'm sure you would have been fine. Hope it works out for you but remember to apply broadly at every point in your career and don't limit your options. I'll be starting fellowship next year and as someone who has gone through these frustrating processes for med school residency and fellowship remember that long term who cares if you waste an extra grand or so on unnecessary applications. It's better than having to waste a year.

 

[aalamruad]

Also, since nobody has mentioned it,

OP, do you have any IA?

lol it turns out that OP has 4 plagiarism IA's, 2 IA's for googling answers on his phone during exams, an expulsion for sexual harassment, and 2 felony hate crimes

 

[RogueBanana]

Your extracurriculars are weird
Perhaps you are too
Grades are great
Clinical Volunteering is fine
I guess your no clinical volunteering is lacking
You are an ORM
Who knows about LORs

Basically your grades are great and that's what you have as your selling point. I don't see the fantastic rest of an app that guarantees interviews at top schools.

So since you should know this you should have applied to at minimum double the schools you applied and I'm sure you would have been fine. Hope it works out for you but remember to apply broadly at every point in your career and don't limit your options. I'll be starting fellowship next year and as someone who has gone through these frustrating processes for med school residency and fellowship remember that long term who cares if you waste an extra grand or so on unnecessary applications. It's better than having to waste a year.

You're suggesting OP apply to 68 schools with a 3.8 and 520?

 

[RogueBanana]

lol it turns out that OP has 4 plagiarism IA's, 2 IA's for googling answers on his phone during exams, an expulsion for sexual harassment, and 2 felony hate crimes

Can you imagine?

 

[Dr Seemi]

You're suggesting OP apply to 68 schools with a 3.8 and 520?

In his situation. Yes.

If you have one selling point aka your grades and are lacking in the rest of your application you better apply broadly or have a much more balanced list which his clearly is not.

 

[Astra]

There is always the perception that you are doing it because you like clinical settings and you like being in the world of doctors and medicine and you are less interested in serving people in need. Serving the needy outside of a clinical setting shows that you are willing to help even when it doesn't get you "clinical service" points.

But helping the needy outside of a clinical setting gets you the "non-clinical" service points, so there is still an incentive to volunteer non clinically.

Also, what is the point of volunteering? Helping those who are less fortunate and contributing something positive to society.


So why should ONLY having clinical volunteering be seen as something negative considering that we wish to desire a clinical field? it shows the person is capable of altruism and can function in a clinical environment. I personally think that should be enough for med school.

 

[dragoon]

If you have one selling point aka your grades and are lacking in the rest of your application you better apply broadly or have a much more balanced list which his clearly is not.

Is his list really that top heavy? I feel like when your stats are good enough, applying to schools where your stats are >90 percentile lowers your chances of getting in

Edit: I feel like if you look at WedgeDawg's thing from last year about selecting which schools to apply to, his list would fit pretty well. And if he got an interview at WashU in Sep, I'm guessing the latest he applied was ~August

 

[aalamruad]

Is his list really that top heavy? I feel like when your stats are good enough, applying to schools where your stats are >90 percentile lowers your chances of getting in

Well it wouldn't lower your chances of acceptance overall, but you'd see severely diminishing returns

 

[RogueBanana]

In his situation. Yes.

If you have one selling point aka your grades and are lacking in the rest of your application you better apply broadly or have a much more balanced list which his clearly is not.

It would be prohibitively expensive though.

Lets assume that the average primary app costs $100.
Lets assume the average secondary costs $100

Thus, each school to apply to will cost $200.

To apply to 20 schools, (the SDN standard) would cost at minimum $4,000. Probably closer to $5,000 when you factor in the variability in costs for app fees. (some go as high as 200 for secondary alone)

Add in, say, 3-4 flights and hotels per 20 apps submitted and you're looking at another $1,500 - $2,000

Our total cost at minimum to apply to 20 schools is now probably around $6,000 - $7,000. This is accurate, my cycle cost me about $5,000 and I didn't have to buy plane tickets because all my interviews were local.

So lets say OP applies to 60 schools for simplicity of math,

that's as much as $21,000 in application and travel fees for a single re-application cycle.

It makes much more sense for the OP to just volunteer an hour per week for 10 months, address interview weaknesses, and re-apply with a targeted list of 10-15 schools.

 

[NegiGenerationZ]

Thanks for the help everybody! I currently am doing nonclinical volunteering so I guess I'm on the right track. I better go over everything I wrote for this cycle. Could be interview skills, but the interviewers responded well. Then again, who knows? I better work on that as well.

Besides nonclinical volunteering and interview skills, what else could I do in the meantime to improve myself?

As for some questions, I was complete mid-June and do not have any IA's or crimes under my name. At least, I hope not unless someone stole my identity. My secondaries were sent in within 2 weeks.

I do love nature but I am not a PETA person. Don't worry, I have not done protests.

I didn't apply DO since it wasn't suggested by the WedgeDog spreadsheet. I have no problem applying DO, and will do so this cycle.

Honestly, 34 schools was already a fortune that ate into the TA money I earned in college. If it were not for FAP, I would not have been able to apply to that many. There is no way I can afford 68. I don't have that type of money.

 

[aalamruad]

It would be prohibitively expensive though.

Lets assume that the average primary app costs $100.
Lets assume the average secondary costs $100

Thus, each school to apply to will cost $200.

To apply to 20 schools, (the SDN standard) would cost at minimum $4,000. Probably closer to $5,000 when you factor in the variability in costs for app fees. (some go as high as 200 for secondary alone)

Add in, say, 3-4 flights and hotels per 20 apps submitted and you're looking at another $1,500 - $2,000

Our total cost at minimum to apply to 20 schools is now probably around $6,000 - $7,000. This is accurate, my cycle cost me about $5,000 and I didn't have to buy plane tickets because all my interviews were local.

So lets say OP applies to 60 schools for simplicity of math,

that's as much as $21,000 in application and travel fees for a single re-application cycle.

It makes much more sense for the OP to just volunteer an hour per week for 10 months, address interview weaknesses, and re-apply with a targeted list of 10-15 schools.

Aren't primaries only like $30-35 per school or something? I don't think it's $100

Edit: but you're right that it would be way too expensive either way

 

[RogueBanana]

Aren't primaries only like $30-35 per school or something? I don't think it's $100

If I remember correctly they were 75-100
I didn't get FAP tho.

I'm pretty sure with FAP they get reduced to $35

 

[aalamruad]

If I remember correctly they were 75-100
I didn't get FAP tho.

I'm pretty sure with FAP they get reduced to $35

Just checked and we're both right, it's around $160 for the first school and around $38 for every subsequent school

 

[libertyyne]

I don't think it's necessarily that. It is that PLUS a ton of research hours paired with mediocre clinical experiences and no nonclinical volunteering at all. It kind of speaks more to "lab rat" than doctor. The application being largely animal based can raise some eyebrows, I'm sure, but more the lack of experience with people did OP in.

I hope op made a clear theme of radiology or pathology in the app.

 

[Dr Seemi]

It would be prohibitively expensive though.

Lets assume that the average primary app costs $100.
Lets assume the average secondary costs $100

Thus, each school to apply to will cost $200.

To apply to 20 schools, (the SDN standard) would cost at minimum $4,000. Probably closer to $5,000 when you factor in the variability in costs for app fees. (some go as high as 200 for secondary alone)

Add in, say, 3-4 flights and hotels per 20 apps submitted and you're looking at another $1,500 - $2,000

Our total cost at minimum to apply to 20 schools is now probably around $6,000 - $7,000. This is accurate, my cycle cost me about $5,000 and I didn't have to buy plane tickets because all my interviews were local.

So lets say OP applies to 60 schools for simplicity of math,

that's as much as $21,000 in application and travel fees for a single re-application cycle.

It makes much more sense for the OP to just volunteer an hour per week for 10 months, address interview weaknesses, and re-apply with a targeted list of 10-15 schools.

Good point. Regardless:

1) know realistically what kind of an applicant your are taking into account everything
2) apply at the right time and as early as possible keeping in mind the above
3) apply broadly and keep in mind your regional ties
4) in your situation would cough up the dough unless you would rather risk not matching/getting accepted and would rather spend a years padding your application by volunteering

 

[Astra]

Besides nonclinical volunteering and interview skills, what else could I do in the meantime to improve myself?

Are you a sociable person? Be honest with yourself. If you aren't, learn how to be sociable via tips on the internet and spending time with people.

Also, how was your appearance during interviews? Get a nice haircut, suit, shoes, deodorant, teeth whiten etc.

If you're out of shape, hit up @RogueBanana's fitness thread and get in shape. Contrary to what some might say, appearances do matter a lot and you will get treated/perceived better if you are more attractive.

And last but not least, do mock interviews and look up MMI prep techniques.

Your stats are insane, best of luck you got this.

 

[RogueBanana]

Good point. Regardless:

1) know realistically what kind of an applicant your are taking into account everything
2) apply at the right time and as early as possible keeping in mind the above
3) apply broadly and keep in mind your regional ties
4) in your situation would cough up the dough unless you would rather risk not matching/getting accepted and would rather spend a years padding your application by volunteering

$21,000 isn't something you can just cough up. That's what i make in a year at my current research job. If I were in OP's position I would have to take out a loan just to apply to med school. That's on top of undergrad debt and against future med school debt.

There is simply no need to spend that much money. OP can have a very successful cycle if they were to wait maybe a year or two at most and re-apply with a stronger app. As @gonnif says, does OP want to get into medical school, or get into medical school quickly.

 

[RogueBanana]

Just checked and we're both right, it's around $160 for the first school and around $38 for every subsequent school

Is that with FAP?

 

[aalamruad]

Is that with FAP?

Nope

 

[RogueBanana]

Nope

Interesting. Either way, with secondary fees reaching $150, the estimate is still pretty accurate

 

[Dr Seemi]

$21,000 isn't something you can just cough up. That's what i make in a year at my current research job. If I were in OP's position I would have to take out a loan just to apply to med school. That's on top of undergrad debt and against future med school debt.

There is simply no need to spend that much money. OP can have a very successful cycle if they were to wait maybe a year or two at most and re-apply with a stronger app. As @gonnif says, does OP want to get into medical school, or get into medical school quickly.

Alright your taking my statements too seriously so I'm gonna let it go. For the OP what's done is done.

OP: hope you get some good news as this cycle enters the final phase. Work on your app as others have suggested and you should be good. Sorry it's been tough chin up and play the game.

 

[LizzyM]

But helping the needy outside of a clinical setting gets you the "non-clinical" service points, so there is still an incentive to volunteer non clinically.

Also, what is the point of volunteering? Helping those who are less fortunate and contributing something positive to society.


So why should ONLY having clinical volunteering be seen as something negative considering that we wish to desire a clinical field? it shows the person is capable of altruism and can function in a clinical environment. I personally think that should be enough for med school.

Think what you want but the schools want to see non-clinical volunteer service. They want to see altruism and clinical exposure separately and not just as a two-for-one deal.

 

[RogueBanana]

Think what you want but the schools want to see non-clinical volunteer service. They want to see altruism and clinical exposure separately and not just as a two-for-one deal.

*mic drop*

 

[aalamruad]

Think what you want but the schools want to see non-clinical volunteer service. They want to see altruism and clinical exposure separately and not just as a two-for-one deal.

Ya gotta admit, it is a bit bizarre (and kind of messed up, actually) that there are situations where it'd look better to volunteer to tutor kids at some random elementary school than to volunteer to tutor hospitalized elementary schoolers who are incredibly sick and socially isolated and behind in their education due to hospitalization. I'd say the latter is always the better option in spite of the fact that it might look like 2-for-1 box-checking by some cynical adcom.

 

[gonnif]

Anyone who applies to Vermont and Buffalo and interviews at Keck and WashU did not fail to gain admission for applying too top heavy. The numbers here are good for any school in America. Once adcom's get past that, everything else comes into play and that's where things have gone wrong. To interview 3 times and have no waitlists suggests that the applicant is giving a poor impression. Something else is going on to get 3 top schools to offer interviews and the other 31 to offer nada.

OP said had waitlist from Keck and no decision from WashU yet. Not that unusual at this point in the cycle. from MSQ, about 60% of matriculants had acceptance with 3 interviews or less, and that would include those acceptances off of waitlist. And nearly half of all matriculants had a single offer of acceptance.

It is important to remember the old saying "that nothing is finalized until the mildy obese female vocalizes melodic" or something like that

 

[gonnif]

Am I the only one who picked up on the mega hours of insect research? Or just the only one blunt enough to point out that it could easily make you seem weird...

Clearly you're a very bright applicant, but you know how some of the stereotypes about extremely bright applicants who are interested in bugs play out -- to be blunt, poor social skills and a 'creepy' vibe. If your application did not make it clear that this is not who you are, then you may be paying the price for other people's assumptions.

My suggestion - spend your time doing activities that develop your social skills and demonstrate your humanity. Work with the elderly, children, disabled, veterans, etc. Go for compassion and human warmth since your intelligence is beyond question.

I dont think adcoms would get bugged out by that, pun intended; my research and pubs as a UG were fruit fly genetics and cellular and behavior on fireflies

 

[Goro]

I am with the wise LizzyM on this one. Med schools want to see you show off your humanism. And one thing I am picking up from SDNers who got into top schools (Harvard/Stanford/UCSF class) is that they have hundreds, and for some, even 1000s of hours of patient contact experience, and/or service to others less fortunate than oneself.

I think that a LOR and/or lack of non-clinical volunteer service were the culprits here. I recommend waiting until 2018 to apply. Meanwhile, get a job and spend at least 2 hours/wk for 52 weeks on a community service activity that is not clinical.

The applicant wasn't too top heavy, he was completely unprepared to apply. The application had a fatal deficiency that even the lower tier schools could not overlook. Volunteer service of a non-clinical nature is VERY important and its absence is a deal breaker.

Isn't the consensus that if you have clinical volunteering ( not work or shadowing) , then not having non clinical volunteering isn't a deal breaker? That seems soooo nitpicky of the AdComs...

In my opinion, this latter part is BS. Yes, yes, LizzyM is an adcom at one more place than I am, so take my input for whatever you think it's worth, but I am highly skeptical that any person who is so academically qualified and has taken the time to go explore medicine is not qualified to get into medical school because of not enough soup kitchen.

OP, I'd argue your list is very top heavy and in some very in-demand locales. It could just be that you were out-matched at some of these places and had no in-state preference at others... Vermont? Colorado? I'd say apply more broadly and keep doing what you love. Who cares if you like raising horses or sheep or whatever instead of packing cans in a box.

Finally, there are subtle personal quirks/qualities that may be really hard to self assess. You might suck at writing or interviewing and not even know it. Strangers on the interwebs are not very reliable in assessing these things either -- perhaps try a professional interview coaching session and just get an idea as to what your strengths and weaknesses are...

Finally think carefully about your LORs. It's the surprise element in your application and perhaps it might be useful to get a few extra LORs and send different samplings to different places (I dunno if that's even possible, but that's what I did for residency apps just to hedge against being sunk by any one letter).

Think what you want but the schools want to see non-clinical volunteer service. They want to see altruism and clinical exposure separately and not just as a two-for-one deal.[/QUOTE]

 

[LizzyM]

Ya gotta admit, it is a bit bizarre (and kind of messed up, actually) that there are situations where it'd look better to volunteer to tutor kids at some random elementary school than to volunteer to tutor hospitalized elementary schoolers who are incredibly sick and socially isolated and behind in their education due to hospitalization. I'd say the latter is always the better option in spite of the fact that it might look like 2-for-1 box-checking by some cynical adcom.

No rule against choosing both... one for clinical volunteerism and one for non-clinical.

OP said had waitlist from Keck and no decision from WashU yet. Not that unusual at this point in the cycle. from MSQ, about 60% of matriculants had acceptance with 3 interviews or less, and that would include those acceptances off of waitlist. And nearly half of all matriculants had a single offer of acceptance.

It is important to remember the old saying "that nothing is finalized until the mildy obese female vocalizes melodic" or something like that

One point off on the CARS for me. I hope that OP will update us in June when this opera is over.