What would a "medicare-for-all" system look like?

[deleted480308]

The one like we had in 2008.

Remember Trump's tax-cut bill and deregulation? Yeah, same old right-wing economics(neoliberalism) and Trump put it to overdrive. Plus there's other factors: $1T of student loan debt, $1T of credit card debt, auto loans, housing reinflated, raising taxes on the working and middle-class, 50% of the population make $30, 000 or less and it goes on and on.

But usually happens when you cut taxes for corporations and uber-wealthy and deregulating banks.

Predicted to crash between August 2019 to August 2020. There's already signs of it.

“Predicted” where? (Citation please)

Are you ready to join the “stop govt involvement in student loans” team?

If the credit card company extends bad credit, let them fail. Fine by me

The recent tax bill did not actually raise taxes on the working and middle class (again, citation please) or are you talking about the local income tax deduction going away?

If that 50% of the population wants more than $30k/yr for their labor, they can provide a service someone wants to pay more than $30k for

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

The one like we had in 2008.

Remember Trump's tax-cut bill and deregulation? Yeah, same old right-wing economics(neoliberalism) and Trump put it to overdrive. Plus there's other factors: $1T of student loan debt, $1T of credit card debt, auto loans, housing reinflated, raising taxes on the working and middle-class, 50% of the population make $30, 000 or less and it goes on and on.

But usually happens when you cut taxes for corporations and uber-wealthy and deregulating banks.

Predicted to crash between August 2019 to August 2020. There's already signs of it.

Umm... no?

 

[321931]

Gyuji. It would take a miracle for someone like Sanders to win. Everyone that has money and is somewhat wealthy would most likely vote for anyone but him. In order to pay for his proposed legislation, it would be literally a ginormous tax on corporations and the high earners. Guess who controls really the the world? The 1%. The wealthy. Why would they want to tax themselves?

I'm sorry but it will most likely be for-the-establishment with a little bit of left leaning bias- Joe Biden- or Trump. And trump didn't get to where he is from the angry farmers- it was people voting for their own self interest that wanted tax cuts. If you had money in the market- your 401k, ira, and stocks are doing the best it ever is.

So I know you have a crystal ball and predicting all these events, but I don't see it happening.

 

[Lawpy]

Trump is pretty much done in the Upper Midwest. Plus, you're underestimating his "socialist" platform and other policies that appeal to many people and even older people. We live in a different era of politics. More and more people are getting their news from the Internet than cable television.

What does Trump have to counter Bernie's policies? Vuvuzuela? Crazy Bernie? When Bernie is talking about facts, numbers and policies. Trump is already doing the GOP agenda of cutting Social Security and Medicare.

Plus an economic crash is coming. You think Trump and Republicans are going to survive the 2020 election when the economy crashes? I already said there's going to be a Republican bloodbath in 2020. And even more in 2022 when Republicans in blue and swing states like Marco Rubio are up for re-election when M4A becomes a reality.

The one like we had in 2008.

Remember Trump's tax-cut bill and deregulation? Yeah, same old right-wing economics(neoliberalism) and Trump put it to overdrive. Plus there's other factors: $1T of student loan debt, $1T of credit card debt, auto loans, housing reinflated, raising taxes on the working and middle-class, 50% of the population make $30, 000 or less and it goes on and on.

But usually happens when you cut taxes for corporations and uber-wealthy and deregulating banks.

Predicted to crash between August 2019 to August 2020. There's already signs of it.

Eesh I dislike people trying to forecast something especially since forecasts have a high chance of being wrong.

People forecasted a Democratic win in 2016 election. That didn't happen. People forecasted Brexit leading to major economic disaster. That didn't happen. People forecasted Trump will torpedo the economy. That didn't happen. Not to mention, we had the recent Australian and Indian elections that completely upended forecasts that so-called experts were pushing through for months to years.

And when things don't happen what forecasters think, the news media get all surprised and announce that the results "confounded the pollsters and pundits".

I despise forecasts.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

If a crash is coming it better hurry. The election isn’t far away. I don’t like Trump based on some of his non libertarian policies, but I can’t argue that the economy on my end is definitely better than it was under Obama.

 

[Lawpy]

If a crash is coming it better hurry. The election isn’t far away. I don’t like Trump based on some of his non libertarian policies, but I can’t argue that the economy on my end is definitely better than it was under Obama.

That's because Obama inherited an economic disaster from Bush and had to clean things up. Trump got Obama's economic recovery and made it better.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Does that mean the economy under Bill Clinton actually just prospered because of Bush Senior?

 

[321931]

The entire market is a disaster. We are an economy built on cheap money via QE from 2008, and we cannot even handle minor interest rate hikes because the market will crash. The only reason why we are still a world power is due to military and the fact that our money is the reserve currency.

But that's beside the point Gyuji. If the market does collapse...how on earth are we going to fund a bill like universal healthcare or the green new deal when we are ALREADY broke. Now we are going to be more broke with a bunch of layoffs and total collapse. So if what you are saying is true...how are we going to pay for all this? I can understand paying for it NOW...but when the economy is in shambles...you cut back..and you do QE...not spend more.

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Yeah, that pretty much say that Bernie Sanders gets it.

Yeah.... no. He doesn't get it.

Trump is pretty much done in the Upper Midwest. Plus, you're underestimating his "socialist" platform and other policies that appeal to many people and even older people. We live in a different era of politics. More and more people are getting their news from the Internet than cable television.

What does Trump have to counter Bernie's policies? Vuvuzuela? Crazy Bernie? When Bernie is talking about facts, numbers and policies. Trump is already doing the GOP agenda of cutting Social Security and Medicare.

Plus an economic crash is coming. You think Trump and Republicans are going to survive the 2020 election when the economy crashes? I already said there's going to be a Republican bloodbath in 2020. And even more in 2022 when Republicans in blue and swing states like Marco Rubio are up for re-election when M4A becomes a reality.

The only chance the DNC has of beating Trump in a general election is to put their eggs in the Joe Biden handbasket. Even then it's not a sure thing.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Hmm. Easy solution. Just print more money!

I don’t understand how the Democrats think trump is definitely going to lose. I don’t care for the man, but women’s and minority rights haven’t been ushered back to 1950, we’re not in a world war, and the democrats have no decent candidates. Talk about trump being a poor excuse for a man (which I agree with), but Joe Biden? Creepy Uncle Joe? The democrats are going to have to come up with someone better than that.

 

[Gyuji]

Gyuji. It would take a miracle for someone like Sanders to win. Everyone that has money and is somewhat wealthy would most likely vote for anyone but him. In order to pay for his proposed legislation, it would be literally a ginormous tax on corporations and the high earners. Guess who controls really the the world? The 1%. The wealthy. Why would they want to tax themselves?

I'm sorry but it will most likely be for-the-establishment with a little bit of left leaning bias- Joe Biden- or Trump. And trump didn't get to where he is from the angry farmers- it was people voting for their own self interest that wanted tax cuts. If you had money in the market- your 401k, ira, and stocks are doing the best it ever is.

So I know you have a crystal ball and predicting all these events, but I don't see it happening.

Like I said before, the only hard part for Bernie Sanders is the primary because the primary election has low voter turnouts due to most people being less informed about it.

Guess who votes in the primary elections? Mostly older people, and being Democratic, they're usually brainwashed by corporate media and tend to favor established members of the party like Joe Biden. So with Sanders, he needs people under 45 to turnout to vote in the primary and he's already campaigning hard on Medicare-4-All. He's doing the 50 States Strategy, going to rallies-to-rallies and, as well, being very unapologetic unlike the last time.

I know the Democratic National Committee doesn't want Sanders to win the nomination and they will try to rig the primary like last time. But to be honest, I don't see anyone from the corporate-wing of the party that can take down Bernie Sanders. Biden might be the favorite but his numbers are tanking due to his past, voting record, and creepiness is surfacing. As well with his gaffes: berating Millennials, agreeing about cutting Social Security and Medicare, lying about having the most progressive record, saying he loves Dick Cheney and working with Republicans and so on(all on camera).

Corporate media acknowledged this and now hiding Biden from the spotlight and waiting for the debates. Basically, they know that once a politician with baggage disappear for a while, their numbers stay the same or goes up (nostalgia factor), similar to Hillary Clinton and even George W. Bush.

Remember, the primary is a year-long process. You can't keep going with just platitude sandwiches, neoliberal-centrism, and no policies, If it was a 3-month primary, Biden has a good chance. But for a whole year of saying nothing? Plus people like Sanders is going to point out Biden wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare. You know who is Biden's supporters..

.Once he starts talking with this neoliberal-centrist garbage, much like Hillary Clinton, his number will continue to go down and he'll flop like he did like the previous two times he ran.

You have to understand the mood of the public. Since the 2000's, the anti-establishment sentiment has been growing among the people. The reason why Trump won in 2016 is because he campaigned himself as an "outsider" and campaigned through the left-populist agenda in the Upper Midwest by saying he's against NAFTA and TPP. Unlike Hillary whom is the opposite. Though we know Trump was full of it and he proved it afterwards during his time in office.

Now with Sanders and Trump, you know Sanders' background and voting record, his stance against corporations and his authentic populism and Trump's horrible economics that reeks Ronald Reagan and W, plus looming crash, attacks on Social Security and Medicare, raising taxes for working people, bloating up the military budget(twice!), outsourced jobs, while punting away the healthcare issue after the 2020 election? And Sanders is talking about raising the minimal wage, against free trade(outsourcing), Medicare-4-All, universal paid-vacation, putting back regulations on banks and corporations and raise taxes on them like they did post-WW2 and before Carter-Reagan era came where the economy steadily grew.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Right. Trump being an “outsider” is a joke. And the “he’s rich already, therefore he has nothing to gain from a presidency and is purely altruistic” is some idiotic thinking. BUT, Bernie claims to be so progressive but it’s clear that he is not a “working class” American. Sounds like especially the African American voters aren’t big fans. It’s more of the members of the rich white crowd that like him. He doesn’t identify with the lower income crowd.

What I don’t understand also- is the notion that conservatives “raise taxes on working people”.

I pay less taxes under Trumps plan than I would’ve under Hillary, Obama, or Bernie’s plan and I make 40,000 a year. Definitely not “rich”.

If progressives only want to tax the “rich” why does anyone making under say 500,000 a year see tax increases with them?

 

[Gyuji]

That's because Obama inherited an economic disaster from Bush and had to clean things up. Trump got Obama's economic recovery and made it better.

It's an illusion. Similar to Reagan, Bush Jr, and Republicans' economics of the 1920's via liberalism-to-neoliberalism

Basically tax cuts for corporations and uber-wealthy and deregulation. It creates a boom in the stock market but only a time period hence the name the Roaring 1920's.

 

[321931]

It's an illusion. Similar to Reagan, Bush Jr, and Republicans' economics of the 1920's via liberalism-to-neoliberalism

Basically tax cuts for corporations and uber-wealthy and deregulation. It creates a boom in the stock market but only a time period hence the name the Roaring 1920's.

So if the market crashes, jobs are cut, economy goes sour....

Who is going to pay for the trillions needed to do universal healthcare and the other social programs? Shouldn't these kind of programs be implemented when we are booming and roaring and everyone has a job, and corporate has record profits? If Sanders inherits a recession/depression economy....are we seriously going to add a budget of 32 trillion dollars? When people's budgets get tight due to layoffs and cut hours....are we going to tax them more in order to pay for it?

I'm sorta trying to follow your logic. You say we are due for market collapse...and we are going to add 32 trillion dollars on top of a 30 trillion dollar deficit...on a "poor" economy. How does that logically make sense? Just print money and cause hyperinflation? Just tax more...when noone is working and economy is doing bad?

I'm just trying to follow you on all your thought processes. Because it makes no sense to me.

 

[deleted927028]

Like I said before, the only hard part for Bernie Sanders is the primary because the primary election has low voter turnouts due to most people being less informed about it.

Guess who votes in the primary elections? Mostly older people, and being Democratic, they're usually brainwashed by corporate media and tend to favor established members of the party like Joe Biden. So with Sanders, he needs people under 45 to turnout to vote in the primary and he's already campaigning hard on Medicare-4-All. He's doing the 50 States Strategy, going to rallies-to-rallies and, as well, being very unapologetic unlike the last time.

I know the Democratic National Committee doesn't want Sanders to win the nomination and they will try to rig the primary like last time. But to be honest, I don't see anyone from the corporate-wing of the party that can take down Bernie Sanders. Biden might be the favorite but his numbers are tanking due to his past, voting record, and creepiness is surfacing. As well with his gaffes: berating Millennials, agreeing about cutting Social Security and Medicare, lying about having the most progressive record, saying he loves Dick Cheney and working with Republicans and so on(all on camera).

Corporate media acknowledged this and now hiding Biden from the spotlight and waiting for the debates. Basically, they know that once a politician with baggage disappear for a while, their numbers stay the same or goes up (nostalgia factor), similar to Hillary Clinton and even George W. Bush.

Remember, the primary is a year-long process. You can't keep going with just platitude sandwiches, neoliberal-centrism, and no policies, If it was a 3-month primary, Biden has a good chance. But for a whole year of saying nothing? Plus people like Sanders is going to point out Biden wanting to cut Social Security and Medicare. You know who is Biden's supporters..

.Once he starts talking with this neoliberal-centrist garbage, much like Hillary Clinton, his number will continue to go down and he'll flop like he did like the previous two times he ran.

You have to understand the mood of the public. Since the 2000's, the anti-establishment sentiment has been growing among the people. The reason why Trump won in 2016 is because he campaigned himself as an "outsider" and campaigned through the left-populist agenda in the Upper Midwest by saying he's against NAFTA and TPP. Unlike Hillary whom is the opposite. Though we know Trump was full of it and he proved it afterwards during his time in office.

Now with Sanders and Trump, you know Sanders' background and voting record, his stance against corporations and his authentic populism and Trump's horrible economics that reeks Ronald Reagan and W, plus looming crash, attacks on Social Security and Medicare, raising taxes for working people, bloating up the military budget(twice!), outsourced jobs, while punting away the healthcare issue after the 2020 election? And Sanders is talking about raising the minimal wage, against free trade(outsourcing), Medicare-4-All, universal paid-vacation, putting back regulations on banks and corporations and raise taxes on them like they did post-WW2 and before Carter-Reagan era came where the economy steadily grew.

You hit the nail on its head. Yes Bernie’s hardest task is to win the nomination. Even in 2016, in hypothetical match up, he was beating Trump by double digits , sometimes even by more than 20 times. This time , he is trailing Biden by big margin because the progressive leaning people are split three ways between him, warren and Harris. If the other two withdraw from the race, Bernie can easily beat Biden.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

You hit the nail on its head. Yes Bernie’s hardest task is to win the nomination. Even in 2016, in hypothetical match up, he was beating Trump by double digits , sometimes even by more than 20 times. This time , he is trailing Biden by big margin because the progressive leaning people are split three ways between him, warren and Harris. If the other two withdraw from the race, Bernie can easily beat Biden.

Nope

 

[managedcarefin]

Medicare for all will not work for two reason. 1. The way we deliver care in America is a disaster and given how different it is hospital to hospital, region to region a single system managing that wouldn't work administratively. 2. If medicare for all comes along and average employers stop offering healthcare coverage and private insurers start closes how exactly are we going to employee all of those people....? Not even talking about the clinic side strictly from an administration point of view medicare for all is DOA.

 

[Gyuji]

So if the market crashes, jobs are cut, economy goes sour....

Who is going to pay for the trillions needed to do universal healthcare and the other social programs? Shouldn't these kind of programs be implemented when we are booming and roaring and everyone has a job, and corporate has record profits? If Sanders inherits a recession/depression economy....are we seriously going to add a budget of 32 trillion dollars? When people's budgets get tight due to layoffs and cut hours....are we going to tax them more in order to pay for it?

I'm sorta trying to follow your logic. You say we are due for market collapse...and we are going to add 32 trillion dollars on top of a 30 trillion dollar deficit...on a "poor" economy. How does that logically make sense? Just print money and cause hyperinflation? Just tax more...when noone is working and economy is doing bad?

I'm just trying to follow you on all your thought processes. Because it makes no sense to me.

Remember 2008 crash/recession? Bailing out Wall Street(twice), bailing out GM(I was in favor of it). bloating up the military budget, and as well with the Stimulus Package(should have spend more to bring back the economy to normal while re-installing Glass-Steagall Act)....

If you're concern about the national debt and deficit, look at Trump: Bloated up the military budget insanely. Last week, it was almost doubled. Let's not forget about the maintenance of those 900 military bases. Yet no one talks about it. No "how you're going to pay for it?" questions from the media.

How about Honduras? A poor country is able to have a public healthcare sector.

With these social programs, there's many ways to allocate money to fund those programs and I already posted it back then.

How about raising corporate tax rate like the old days and set regulations on them? End corporate welfare, end corporate crimewave. I'm in favor of increasing insanely on them for messing the economy.

 

[deleted480308]

Remember 2008 crash/recession? Bailing out Wall Street(twice), bailing out GM(I was in favor of it). bloating up the military budget, and as well with the Stimulus Package(should have spend more to bring back the economy to normal while re-installing Glass-Steagall Act)....

If you're concern about the national debt and deficit, look at Trump: Bloated up the military budget insanely. Last week, it was almost doubled. Let's not forget about the maintenance of those 900 military bases. Yet no one talks about it. No "how you're going to pay for it?" questions from the media.

How about Honduras? A poor country is able to have a public healthcare sector.

With these social programs, there's many ways to allocate money to fund those programs and I already posted it back then.

How about raising corporate tax rate like the old days and set regulations on them? End corporate welfare, end corporate crimewave. I'm in favor of increasing insanely on them for messing the economy.

There is a difference between “welfare” and not stealing as much of someone’s (or some company’s money).

But I’m with you on wanting less spending all over if that’s what you are into

 

[321931]

I get what you are saying- and what you are saying is noble...but it makes zero sense if theres a recession which you are banking on. It would literally send us into a great depression. I mean you are talking in hypotheticals...and I am to. If anything- universal healthcare should be implemented when the economy is strong...not when its weak- which you are proposing.

I personally love debating economics and stock market, and policies like that. So I guess I'm shifting the topic towards more of an economic topic. So I guess the question is how economically do we make this work when in recessions- you need to jump start things...not tax more in order to create more social programs....?

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

And Sanders is talking about raising the minimal wage, against free trade(outsourcing), Medicare-4-All, universal paid-vacation, putting back regulations on banks and corporations and raise taxes on them like they did post-WW2 and before Carter-Reagan era came where the economy steadily grew.

Which is why he is going to lose......

How about Honduras? A poor country is able to have a public healthcare sector.

Wait, are you citing Honduras as an example of how feasible it is to have universal healthcare?

 

[deleted927028]

Which is why he is going to lose......


Wait, are you citing Honduras as an example of how feasible it is to have universal healthcare?

If it is feasible for a poor country, why not for the supposedly richest country?

 

[321931]

If it is feasible for a poor country, why not for the supposedly richest country?

Just a quick google search on honduras universal healthcare shows a failed system that is underbudget, has a migration of doctors leaving due to pay/working conditions, and inability to treat everyone. Noone is going to honduras for medical care unless its medical tourism for cheap dental work or medical work with questionable results. Everyone comes to the States if they want the best care. It's stupid to compare honduras healthcare to united states healthcare.

You should compare universal healthcare system of first world countries to united states. Hint UK hint. Which is ironically also on the verge of collapse.



Anywhooo what to do? I def won't be moving my license over the UK...but I bet a UK physician wouldn't mind coming to the U.S.

 

[deleted927028]

So if the market crashes, jobs are cut, economy goes sour....

Who is going to pay for the trillions needed to do universal healthcare and the other social programs? Shouldn't these kind of programs be implemented when we are booming and roaring and everyone has a job, and corporate has record profits? If Sanders inherits a recession/depression economy....are we seriously going to add a budget of 32 trillion dollars? When people's budgets get tight due to layoffs and cut hours....are we going to tax them more in order to pay for it?

I'm sorta trying to follow your logic. You say we are due for market collapse...and we are going to add 32 trillion dollars on top of a 30 trillion dollar deficit...on a "poor" economy. How does that logically make sense? Just print money and cause hyperinflation? Just tax more...when noone is working and economy is doing bad?

I'm just trying to follow you on all your thought processes. Because it makes no sense to me.

@Rainee, this is not in response to your post but in general.

Since 2016 primaries, I have watched Bernie going over his plans AND EXACTLY HOW HE IS GOING TO PAY FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM, at least hundred times in the debates, interviews, rallies etc. I have never seen any US politicians explaining their proposals with that much clarity.

Yet, all his detractors like republicans, conservatives, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC , corporate Democrats pretend as if they were deaf, and attack him by saying “how he is going to pay?”, “where is the money?”, “numbers don’t add up” etc. some intellectuals even say he is going to run up the debt by 40T, 50T and even 70T etc. come on !! If you have issues with his plans of how he is going to pay, you can disagree. But we should not blatantly lie and claim he had no plans and claim he is going to run up deficit.

Whenever Medicare for all comes up, the intellectuals repeatedly ask “how are we going to pay?”, “it is going add 30T to deficit etc. The question they forget to ask themselves is HOW WE ARE PAYING NOW? ARE THE PRIVATE INSURANCE GIVING THE COVERAGE FOR FREE? We are paying nearly three times in premiums compared to UK and deductibles, copays on top of it. HOW THE HELL WE ARE ABLE TO PAY THAT MUCH BUT WE COMPLAIN ABOUT PAYING ONE THIRD OF IT?

Bernie has told many times that he will collect 2% of salary from every employee and 6% from the employer to fund Medicare for all. No deductible or copay. A typical family pays about $25000 in premiums, copays and deductibles. So unless you make more than a million in salary, it is a damn good deal. May be, he should have used the term premium instead of the terrible term TAX.

Regarding free tuition, he repeatedly said he is planning to tax wall street speculative trading by like 0.1%, 0.03% and 0.3% etc. Still people attack him dishonesty by saying he is going to raise the tax on middle class people, it is a bad idea, it won’t work in USA , we can’t afford it etc.

I can go on and on. But you see where I am going. I don’t really understand why people are so obsessed with acting against their own interest.

 

[321931]

@Rainee, this is not in response to your post but in general.

Since 2016 primaries, I have watched Bernie going over his plans AND EXACTLY HOW HE IS GOING TO PAY FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM, at least hundred times in the debates, interviews, rallies etc. I have never seen any US politicians explaining their proposals with that much clarity.

Yet, all his detractors like republicans, conservatives, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC , corporate Democrats pretend as if they were deaf, and attack him by saying “how he is going to pay?”, “where is the money?”, “numbers don’t add up” etc. some intellectuals even say he is going to run up the debt by 40T, 50T and even 70T etc. come on !! If you have issues with his plans of how he is going to pay, you can disagree. But we should not blatantly lie and claim he had no plans and claim he is going to run up deficit.

Whenever Medicare for all comes up, the intellectuals repeatedly ask “how are we going to pay?”, “it is going add 30T to deficit etc. The question they forget to ask themselves is HOW WE ARE PAYING NOW? ARE THE PRIVATE INSURANCE GIVING THE COVERAGE FOR FREE? We are paying nearly three times in premiums compared to UK and deductibles, copays on top of it. HOW THE HELL WE ARE ABLE TO PAY THAT MUCH BUT WE COMPLAIN ABOUT PAYING ONE THIRD OF IT?

Bernie has told many times that he will collect 2% of salary from every employee and 6% from the employer to fund Medicare for all. No deductible or copay. A typical family pays about $25000 in premiums, copays and deductibles. So unless you make more than a million in salary, it is a damn good deal. May be, he should have used the term premium instead of the terrible term TAX.

Regarding free tuition, he repeatedly said he is planning to tax wall street speculative trading by like 0.1%, 0.03% and 0.3% etc. Still people attack him dishonesty by saying he is going to raise the tax on middle class people, it is a bad idea, it won’t work in USA , we can’t afford it etc.

I can go on and on. But you see where I am going. I don’t really understand why people are so obsessed with acting against their own interest.

I suppose its because you are proposing a topic on a medical forum...where literally reimbursement rates will most likely be cut in half which will affect overall take home pay. I'm sorry but many physicians just aren't going to put up with double the workload, double the paperwork, and less pay. In short- that is that their own self interest. You go to school for a long time, and you expect to make X amount. Cutting that X amount in half sucks. I can probably guarantee you that if it were to pass, many physicians that are well off would just retire/semi-retire and or do a concierge group practice that takes cash only.

Thanks for the answer though- it does make sense. But implementing it and making it work would be very hard- through administration- AND also finding the providers to put up with it. Just keeping it real.

 

[deleted927028]

Just a quick google search on honduras universal healthcare shows a failed system that is underbudget, has a migration of doctors leaving due to pay/working conditions, and inability to treat everyone. Noone is going to honduras for medical care unless its medical tourism for cheap dental work or medical work with questionable results. Everyone comes to the States if they want the best care. It's stupid to compare honduras healthcare to united states healthcare.

You should compare universal healthcare system of first world countries to united states. Hint UK hint. Which is ironically also on the verge of collapse.



Anywhooo what to do? I def won't be moving my license over the UK...but I bet a UK physician wouldn't mind coming to the U.S.

Yes, people come to USA for treatment if they are millionaires. How much you charge people here for the so called best care? Around $20000 to $25000 per year. Still no guarantee that you won’t go bankrupt if you get serious illness. Do you know what is the average household in come in USA ? $50000. Do you think those people have mountain of left over money to dish out $20-$25K for healthcare? By the way , our country is ranked 38 in the world, well below many poor countries that you detest, not #1 as you are brainwashed to believe.

 

[deleted927028]

I suppose its because you are proposing a topic on a medical forum...where literally reimbursement rates will most likely be cut in half which will affect overall take home pay. I'm sorry but many physicians just aren't going to put up with double the workload, double the paperwork, and less pay. In short- that is that their own self interest. You go to school for a long time, and you expect to make X amount. Cutting that X amount in half sucks. I can probably guarantee you that if it were to pass, many physicians that are well off would just retire/semi-retire and or do a concierge group practice that takes cash only.

Thanks for the answer though- it does make sense. But implementing it and making it work would be very hard- through administration- AND also finding the providers to put up with it. Just keeping it real.

I agree with you on physician pay. They have to pay them handsomely . Reimburse their tuition. We need to attract bright minds into medicine.

 

[321931]

I agree with you on physician pay. They have to pay them handsomely . Reimburse their tuition. We need to attract bright minds into medicine.

Well that's one area we can agree upon. Just so happens that the state/gov insurance pays literally 1/4 or 1/2 what a PPO pays. After paying your overhead expenses...you literally are barely breaking even...and not even paying yourself. So that being said- I doubt that universal healthcare would match PPO pay. Just my 2 cents. But I agree with your comment.

 

[deleted480308]

Yes, people come to USA for treatment if they are millionaires. How much you charge people here for the so called best care? Around $20000 to $25000 per year. Still no guarantee that you won’t go bankrupt if you get serious illness. Do you know what is the average household in come in USA ? $50000. Do you think those people have mountain of left over money to dish out $20-$25K for healthcare? By the way , our country is ranked 38 in the world, well below many poor countries that you detest, not #1 as you are brainwashed to believe.

Those rankings are crap

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

If it is feasible for a poor country, why not for the supposedly richest country?

Do you have any understanding at all of how much of a failed system Honduras has?

By the way , our country is ranked 38 in the world, well below many poor countries that you detest, not #1 as you are brainwashed to believe.

Yeah multiple people have already explained to you why that number means less than a fart in the wind, but by all means continue to throw it out there as if the more times you use it the more accurate it will become.

 

[deleted927028]

Those rankings are crap

Assuming it is crap, it is crap for all the countries and 37 of them are doing better than us and all of them spend only a fraction of what we spend. They must be doing something better than us. You sound like a team that blames the rules after losing the game terribly

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

Assuming it is crap, it is crap for all the countries and 37 of them are doing better than us and all of them spend only a fraction of what we spend. They must be doing something better than us. You sound like a team that blames the rules after losing the game terribly

No. That's not how any of that works, you are quite literally a walking logical fallacy....

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

@Rainee, this is not in response to your post but in general.

Since 2016 primaries, I have watched Bernie going over his plans AND EXACTLY HOW HE IS GOING TO PAY FOR EVERY ONE OF THEM, at least hundred times in the debates, interviews, rallies etc. I have never seen any US politicians explaining their proposals with that much clarity.

Yet, all his detractors like republicans, conservatives, Fox News, CNN, MSNBC , corporate Democrats pretend as if they were deaf, and attack him by saying “how he is going to pay?”, “where is the money?”, “numbers don’t add up” etc. some intellectuals even say he is going to run up the debt by 40T, 50T and even 70T etc. come on !! If you have issues with his plans of how he is going to pay, you can disagree. But we should not blatantly lie and claim he had no plans and claim he is going to run up deficit.

Whenever Medicare for all comes up, the intellectuals repeatedly ask “how are we going to pay?”, “it is going add 30T to deficit etc. The question they forget to ask themselves is HOW WE ARE PAYING NOW? ARE THE PRIVATE INSURANCE GIVING THE COVERAGE FOR FREE? We are paying nearly three times in premiums compared to UK and deductibles, copays on top of it. HOW THE HELL WE ARE ABLE TO PAY THAT MUCH BUT WE COMPLAIN ABOUT PAYING ONE THIRD OF IT?

Bernie has told many times that he will collect 2% of salary from every employee and 6% from the employer to fund Medicare for all. No deductible or copay. A typical family pays about $25000 in premiums, copays and deductibles. So unless you make more than a million in salary, it is a damn good deal. May be, he should have used the term premium instead of the terrible term TAX.

Regarding free tuition, he repeatedly said he is planning to tax wall street speculative trading by like 0.1%, 0.03% and 0.3% etc. Still people attack him dishonesty by saying he is going to raise the tax on middle class people, it is a bad idea, it won’t work in USA , we can’t afford it etc.

I can go on and on. But you see where I am going. I don’t really understand why people are so obsessed with acting against their own interest.

Why? Why doesn’t he just collect it all from the rich 1%ers? Why is he having to tax every employee? I thought he was against that sort of thing.



On a serious note it wouldn’t be a better thing for me. I have virtually no medical expenditure, and that 25,000 a year doesn’t apply to me. I don’t think I’ve spent more than 2000$ on my healthcare in my 15 years of adult life. I don’t feel like paying for others who don’t take care of themselves. They put themselves into that situation, not my responsibility to pay for their stupid choices.

 

[321931]

Why? Why doesn’t he just collect it all from the rich 1%ers? Why is he having to tax every employee? I thought he was against that sort of thing.



On a serious note it wouldn’t be a better thing for me. I have virtually no medical expenditure, and that 25,000 a year doesn’t apply to me. I don’t think I’ve spent more than 2000$ on my healthcare in my 15 years of adult life. I don’t feel like paying for others who don’t take care of themselves. They put themselves into that situation, not my responsibility to pay for their stupid choices.

Have you been to Europe? Everyone is FIT as hell. No joke. Biking, hiking, walking, everyone is fit...which contributes to lower amounts of diabetes and obesity related conditions. Should we have a clause that Americans under universal healthcare need to be the same? Do we get incentives towards that? Or do we just just pay pay pay for other peoples choices...even though personally I'm a Marathon Runner and in the best shape in my life?

So sorta curious what you guys think about that. Europeans are fit as hell.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Why not have different tiers? If you wanna sell socialized medicine, how about a tier system? Like insurance groups. No preexistings, healthy, fit? Cheap insurance. Not so healthy? You’ll be in the more expensive group.

I’m totally against any form of socialism but if you guys want to sway people, you’re going to need new ideas.

I agree. I never eat any processed food, I grow much of what I eat, and I run 2 miles every single day and weight train 5 days a week. Maybe if everyone put effort into their body, healthcare costs would be lower. Grosses me out when I volunteer in the hospital, and some morbidly obese patient is there for hypertensive crisis, and his family is bringing him fried chicken, and sweet tea and honey buns. I am NOT paying for stupidity like that.

 

[forumname1]

Not sure why people think that electing Bernie or anyone else to the presidency will do anything to secure medicare-for-all. Trump ran on building the wall and can't get it done for the same reason medicare-for-all more than likely wouldn't go anywhere: Congress won't pass it. And people can feign support all they want for it because lip service is cheap, when the actual vote came I don't think that it would go. Look at California: super majorities in the state House and Senate and they won't even pass it. Only reason Obamacare got passed was they had the presidency, the house, and 60 senators which prevented a filibuster. Taking a simple look at the Senate map for 2020 it's almost impossible for the dems to get to 60 senate seats. Now I do think that the current political climate means that the dems would simply get rid of the legislative filibuster if they got a simple majority and wanted to pass something with a dem president. I also think that if something like medicare-for-all was passed, it would instantly be taken to the Supreme Court much in the same way that Obamacare was fought over in the courts. With the new justices in place, who knows how the vote would go.

Also anyone who thinks the government touching something will somehow reduce administrative overhead and "control costs" is in my opinion choosing to ignore reality. Just look at the Obamacare website: it cost over $2.1 billion (and that's a 2014 number) for a website that basically didn't even function in its beginnings. It has gotten better, but the solution was basically to just keep pouring money at it until it was better. If they can't even design a website to function without a billion(s) dollar price tag, I shudder to think what the actual costs will be. And you can't believe anything that the Congressional Budget Office says, because they are pretty much just randomly guessing (just take a look at their "projected" costs and the actual costs). And any study funded from outside the government will just "find" the cost to be whatever fits their intended bias with the article (either for or against medicare for all).

 

[deleted927028]

Not sure why people think that electing Bernie or anyone else to the presidency will do anything to secure medicare-for-all. Trump ran on building the wall and can't get it done for the same reason medicare-for-all more than likely wouldn't go anywhere: Congress won't pass it. And people can feign support all they want for it because lip service is cheap, when the actual vote came I don't think that it would go. Look at California: super majorities in the state House and Senate and they won't even pass it. Only reason Obamacare got passed was they had the presidency, the house, and 60 senators which prevented a filibuster. Taking a simple look at the Senate map for 2020 it's almost impossible for the dems to get to 60 senate seats. Now I do think that the current political climate means that the dems would simply get rid of the legislative filibuster if they got a simple majority and wanted to pass something with a dem president. I also think that if something like medicare-for-all was passed, it would instantly be taken to the Supreme Court much in the same way that Obamacare was fought over in the courts. With the new justices in place, who knows how the vote would go.

Also anyone who thinks the government touching something will somehow reduce administrative overhead and "control costs" is in my opinion choosing to ignore reality. Just look at the Obamacare website: it cost over $2.1 billion (and that's a 2014 number) for a website that basically didn't even function in its beginnings. It has gotten better, but the solution was basically to just keep pouring money at it until it was better. If they can't even design a website to function without a billion(s) dollar price tag, I shudder to think what the actual costs will be. And you can't believe anything that the Congressional Budget Office says, because they are pretty much just randomly guessing (just take a look at their "projected" costs and the actual costs). And any study funded from outside the government will just "find" the cost to be whatever fits their intended bias with the article (either for or against medicare for all).

I completely agree with what you have said in the first paragraph. It is not going to be easy. Ultimately you need the votes. He does not have billions sitting around to bribe the senators, congressmen and buy their votes or buy the media outlets and brainwash the gullible people and half the people who will benefit from it are against him. But he is the best person available to give it a best shot. He says that he is going to rally the people and put pressure on the senators and congressmen. That’s the best he could do. If the people do not want to rise up then they have only blame themselves.

I wanted to avoid commenting on your second paragraph but couldn’t resist. The starting problem that Obamacare website had is nothing. These things are expected to happen. I am in IT and I haven’t seen any projects not having these kind of issues. But it is a good opportunity for everyone to take a shot at the government and feel good about themselves. What these people fail to understand is that the website was developed by PRIVATE contractors. But we are not trained to find fault with private companies or criticize them. It is not fashionable. But the government is an easy target. No one will come to its defense. As I have said many times, there will be problems in both private and government endeavors, neither is perfect and both are equally efficient/inefficient.

Regarding your apprehension that if Medicare for all will contain cost, do not worry, it will happen as proved by every other country. Expert analysis says that just getting rid of private insurance companies will save 33%. Collecting premiums from insurers and distributing it to physicians and hospitals is not a rocket science. Anybody can do it .

 

[deleted480308]

I completely agree with what you have said in the first paragraph. It is not going to be easy. Ultimately you need the votes. He does not have billions sitting around to bribe the senators, congressmen and buy their votes or buy the media outlets and brainwash the gullible people and half the people who will benefit from it are against him. But he is the best person available to give it a best shot. He says that he is going to rally the people and put pressure on the senators and congressmen. That’s the best he could do. If the people do not want to rise up then they have only blame themselves.

I wanted to avoid commenting on your second paragraph but couldn’t resist. The starting problem that Obamacare website had is nothing. These things are expected to happen. I am in IT and I haven’t seen any projects not having these kind of issues. But it is a good opportunity for everyone to take a shot at the government and feel good about themselves. What these people fail to understand is that the website was developed by PRIVATE contractors. But we are not trained to find fault with private companies or criticize them. It is not fashionable. But the government is an easy target. No one will come to its defense. As I have said many times, there will be problems in both private and government endeavors, neither is perfect and both are equally efficient/inefficient.

Regarding your apprehension that if Medicare for all will contain cost, do not worry, it will happen as proved by every other country. Expert analysis says that just getting rid of private insurance companies will save 33%. Collecting premiums from insurers and distributing it to physicians and hospitals is not a rocket science. Anybody can do it .

What expert analysts say 33% savings? Citation?

And the problem with a crap govt website over a crap private site is the private company cannot seize your income or put you in jail if you don’t use their crap website. They also can’t take your income against your will to build the crap website

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

I completely agree with what you have said in the first paragraph. It is not going to be easy. Ultimately you need the votes. He does not have billions sitting around to bribe the senators, congressmen and buy their votes or buy the media outlets and brainwash the gullible people and half the people who will benefit from it are against him. But he is the best person available to give it a best shot. He says that he is going to rally the people and put pressure on the senators and congressmen. That’s the best he could do. If the people do not want to rise up then they have only blame themselves.

I wanted to avoid commenting on your second paragraph but couldn’t resist. The starting problem that Obamacare website had is nothing. These things are expected to happen. I am in IT and I haven’t seen any projects not having these kind of issues. But it is a good opportunity for everyone to take a shot at the government and feel good about themselves. What these people fail to understand is that the website was developed by PRIVATE contractors. But we are not trained to find fault with private companies or criticize them. It is not fashionable. But the government is an easy target. No one will come to its defense. As I have said many times, there will be problems in both private and government endeavors, neither is perfect and both are equally efficient/inefficient.

Regarding your apprehension that if Medicare for all will contain cost, do not worry, it will happen as proved by every other country. Expert analysis says that just getting rid of private insurance companies will save 33%. Collecting premiums from insurers and distributing it to physicians and hospitals is not a rocket science. Anybody can do it .

So you admit that our politicians are bought, but we shouldn’t be fearful or critical of our government? Who do you think the government is exactly?

 

[deleted927028]

So you admit that our politicians are bought, but we shouldn’t be fearful or critical of our government? Who do you think the government is exactly?

But we have to understand that the government comprised of employees are different from the politicians and appointed officials with power. There is no corruption or inefficiency with the government employees, they are as powerless as we are.

Of course I admit most of the politicians on both sides are bought and they are corrupt. But surrendering to private blood suckers and let them loot our hard earned money and the national resources is not a better option. We have to fight to remove the corruption instead. we people are accepting the corruption and give the politicians a free ride because we are divided over stupid , worthless social issues like guns, abortion, gay rights, skin color etc. Most of us vote on these issues and let the politicians do whatever they want. The solution is easy. First we all have to believe that the government is not some evil , alien force that’s out to get us but it is our shield. Then we have to come together , fight together and make campaign contributions, lobbying, speaking fees, employment for politicians in private sector after retirement etc all CRIMINAL OFFENSES. Because this is how the bribe is getting paid legally. Demand the government to take over all natural resources like oil, natural oil etc, harvest them , sell it and use the profit to fund social security, healthcare etc. Demand the politicians to take control over banking, education, healthcare and come up with policies that will benefit 99% of the population and not just 1%. Close the tax loopholes that the multi billion corporations use and get away with not paying single dollar.

The best way to make it happen is to back the right politicians like Bernie, Warren etc instead of getting terrified of them. Get out of the couch and fight. Demand your senator, congressmen to do the right thing . Surrendering to private entities, worshipping them, defending them irrespective of the atrocities they commit, is not going improve the situation, it will only worsen it

 

[deleted480308]

But we have to understand that the government comprised of employees are different from the politicians and appointed officials with power. There is no corruption or inefficiency with the government employees, they are as powerless as we are.

Of course I admit most of the politicians on both sides are bought and they are corrupt. But surrendering to private blood suckers and let them loot our hard earned money and the national resources is not a better option. We have to fight to remove the corruption instead. we people are accepting the corruption and give the politicians a free ride because we are divided over stupid , worthless social issues like guns, abortion, gay rights, skin color etc. Most of us vote on these issues and let the politicians do whatever they want. The solution is easy. First we all have to believe that the government is not some evil , alien force that’s out to get us but it is our shield. Then we have to come together , fight together and make campaign contributions, lobbying, speaking fees, employment for politicians in private sector after retirement etc all CRIMINAL OFFENSES. Because this is how the bribe is getting paid legally. Demand the government to take over all natural resources like oil, natural oil etc, harvest them , sell it and use the profit to fund social security, healthcare etc. Demand the politicians to take control over banking, education, healthcare and come up with policies that will benefit 99% of the population and not just 1%. Close the tax loopholes that the multi billion corporations use and get away with not paying single dollar.

The best way to make it happen is to back the right politicians like Bernie, Warren etc instead of getting terrified of them. Get out of the couch and fight. Demand your senator, congressmen to do the right thing . Surrendering to private entities, worshipping them, defending them irrespective of the atrocities they commit, is not going improve the situation, it will only worsen it

Stupid issues like guns and murdering humans in the womb? Those are kind of a big deal

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Demand the government to take over all natural resources like oil, natural oil etc, harvest them , sell it and use the profit to fund social security, healthcare etc. Demand the politicians to take control over banking, education, healthcare and come up with policies that will benefit 99% of the population and not just 1%.

You mean like the USSR did? Or Venezuela?

Our government has already taken over education. That doesn't give me much faith in its ability to do better with banking or healthcare.

Hard pass.

 

[deleted927028]

What expert analysts say 33% savings? Citation?

And the problem with a crap govt website over a crap private site is the private company cannot seize your income or put you in jail if you don’t use their crap website. They also can’t take your income against your will to build the crap website

I am sorry I did not save the link. Please do google, you will find it.

I know you are so fearful of the government. But the fear is not based on reality but imaginary. You have been trained to believe that way from your childhood. No amount of discussion will help the situation. You have to come out of it by yourself.

A few months ago, there was a 20 year old kid on Bill Maher’s show. With a lot of conviction, the kid was repeatedly saying “I hate the government “. At one point Bill stopped him and pressed “I get it that you hate the government, but can you give us the reasons why you do so?” The kid could not come up with even one reason, just a wry, ackward smile. Obviously he is too young to have any real world experience with the government. Basically he was trained to hate the government at a very young agar by the environment. You cannot reason with him. He will remain the same for the rest of his life and vote on autopilot against his own interest. The Republican Party has a lifelong loyal voter right there.

 

[deleted927028]

You mean like the USSR did? Or Venezuela?

Our government has already taken over education. That doesn't give me much faith in its ability to do better with banking or healthcare.

Hard pass.

Why are you ignoring Canada, Australia, all Scandinavian countries to name a few? Do you honestly believe Venezuela would the best country in the world if they followed the same policies of USA ?

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Why are you ignoring Canada, Australia, all Scandinavian countries to name a few? Do you honestly believe Venezuela would the best country in the world if they followed the same policies of USA ?

They don't have centralized banking.

And weirdly enough, Venezuela was quite prosperous at one time...

How Venezuela went from a rich democracy to a dictatorship on the brink of collapse

The government’s response to economic crisis is reshaping the nation.

www.vox.com

 

[321931]

Why are you ignoring Canada, Australia, all Scandinavian countries to name a few? Do you honestly believe Venezuela would the best country in the world if they followed the same policies of USA ?

Venezuela is a disaster because the gov took over oil production, made 99% of their countries income dependent on a cyclical product, drove out all privatized businesses, gave a bunch of gov supplements out, and when oil crashed- they could not save themselves. They drove out all the entrepreneurs because hint- no entrepreneur wants to work in a socialized setting where stuff can be seized because the government says so. The gov in Venezuela did just that because they thought they could do better and provide for the citizens.

Now they are stuck with a bunch of people that STILL expect handouts and all the people with brains left to countries that would value their hard work.

Venezuela would not be the best country in the world, but it wouldn't be the disaster it is today if it did follow the same policies of the United States.

Anyways moot points, the states will always be driven by Capitalism with a safety net of social benefits. Forumname1 nailed the point home. So around in circle we go about talking about something that will never happen.

 

[deleted480308]

I am sorry I did not save the link. Please do google, you will find it.

I know you are so fearful of the government. But the fear is not based on reality but imaginary. You have been trained to believe that way from your childhood. No amount of discussion will help the situation. You have to come out of it by yourself.

A few months ago, there was a 20 year old kid on Bill Maher’s show. With a lot of conviction, the kid was repeatedly saying “I hate the government “. At one point Bill stopped him and pressed “I get it that you hate the government, but can you give us the reasons why you do so?” The kid could not come up with even one reason, just a wry, ackward smile. Obviously he is too young to have any real world experience with the government. Basically he was trained to hate the government at a very young agar by the environment. You cannot reason with him. He will remain the same for the rest of his life and vote on autopilot against his own interest. The Republican Party has a lifelong loyal voter right there.

That’s not how this works. You proposed something as a fact, you can google it and post the citation here

And save me the story time stuff since it’s irrelevant. I’m much older than that, am not a republican, and have changed my views significantly since childhood.

Let’s get back to that citation you owe us

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

“There is no inefficiency or corruption with government employees”

Okay I’m definitely calling troll on this one.

 

[321931]

“There is no inefficiency or corruption with government employees”

Okay I’m definitely calling troll on this one.

haha he def got us good, but it was definitely a fun discussion.

 

[BeautifulSmiles523]

Ah! I totally missed “Venezuela would still be the best country in the world if they followed US policies?”

Man, he weaves them in there so well. +1 good troll