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Medical premiums is set to surpass the household income in 11 years. Probably only the top 1% and the kings would be able to afford the medical insurance. I hope I live that long to see how things pan out. Those who ridicule Bernie are going to regret it and pay dearly. Unfortunately we don’t think into future beyond one day.
 

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Could work if they turned down the 86 yo that wants dialysis and several major operations that have a 3% chance of working.
But it won’t. Because that guys compatriots vote. Children that need vaccines don’t vote or have parents that don’t believe in vaccines that vote for them. So we’d have a medical system set up for the biggest moron...which is wja we have now. And we all make a TON off it even though we know it’s stupid. But we just deliver what the average moron wants. So the problem is our economic benefit is actually aligned with giving dumb people what they want. Medicare for all just pushes that further...let’s do it!
I could see a solution but people won’t vote for it. People would rather vote to give me money and have no better outcomes...so if I can’t convince them otherwise why. It just take the money and say “thanks!”...
 
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People don’t want to pay for people who aren’t going to take care of themselves, or won’t get better.

So you basically have a list of people “not worthy of care” or you pay for a lot of people who aren’t going to get better, many vegetative, and it’s a huge money sink.
 
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Lawper

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Does that mean the economy under Bill Clinton actually just prospered because of Bush Senior?
No. Bush Sr. lost reelection to Clinton because of the early 1990s recession and slow growth.
 
May 22, 2018
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$6000 bill for fours of stay in Emergency Room in USA. It costs just $4000 in UK for one year worth of comprehensive coverage. But we should not complain, just shut up and pay. Because we get to live in the only capitalist country in the world and have the best healthcare in the world.

A healthcare provider could not afford health insurance , not some lazy free loader.
I'm A Health Care Provider Without Commercial Health Insurance. Here's My Story.
 

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No, because cost isn't the only thing that matters.

Mexico has much cheaper healthcare than we do, but I don't know many people clamoring to go there for treatment.
Actually medical tourism to Mexico from the US is substantial and growing.
 
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$6000 bill for fours of stay in Emergency Room in USA. It costs just $4000 in UK for one year worth of comprehensive coverage. But we should not complain, just shut up and pay. Because we get to live in the only capitalist country in the world and have the best healthcare in the world.

A healthcare provider could not afford health insurance , not some lazy free loader.
I'm A Health Care Provider Without Commercial Health Insurance. Here's My Story.
How exactly is America capitalist? That’s what I have yet to figure.
 

Lawper

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But following logic that has been used, that was really just Reagan’s fault. Right?
No, instead Bush Sr. got Reagan's recovery and ended up with a recession, which led to his defeat in reelection. I'd give credit to Reagan for fixing the mess he got from 1970s disaster.
 

sb247

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$6000 bill for fours of stay in Emergency Room in USA. It costs just $4000 in UK for one year worth of comprehensive coverage. But we should not complain, just shut up and pay. Because we get to live in the only capitalist country in the world and have the best healthcare in the world.

A healthcare provider could not afford health insurance , not some lazy free loader.
I'm A Health Care Provider Without Commercial Health Insurance. Here's My Story.
That story is crap. An NP job should easily pay around $100k. This person says they went locums in order to make even more money. With IBR and $100k in income you can absolutely buy insurance and pay student loans. It’s literally a lie to say it cannot be done.

Secondly, she is misrepresenting those cost share ministries and that story. First, no hospital expects to get the full bill from a cash payer. Hospital in my home town all you have to do is call and remind them you as cash pay and the price drops 50%. I was also on one of those price share ministry plans with family and covered stuff does get repaid. Yes it takes a few months but I have many friends on it too and personally know of over $100k worth of cost share that got covered.

That story is a sham. The author is misleading
 
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When I pay cash it ends up being even less than 50%

I’ve had 400$ bills magically become 50 or less. It’s a game, and it amazes me that people don’t see past it.
 
May 22, 2018
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How exactly is America capitalist? That’s what I have yet to figure.
It was meant to be a sarcasm, but seems like I failed. What I meant was, if someone like Bernie proposes that the government has to get involved and contain the cost of healthcare , 60-70% of the population get paranoid and shout that it is socialism, communism etc. In most of the countries around the world, UK, Canada, Australia, Scandinavian countries etc, the government takes charge of the healthcare and provide the population affordable healthcare. They are as free world and capitalist as we are. They don’t think their government involvement as socialism or communism etc. they don’t fear that their government is going to jail them, take away their liberty , confiscate their home etc.
 
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I’m talking about the game that the government and insurance companies play together.

I’ve worked in ERs and haven’t seen hospital staff playing games, it’s the insurance companies and government that play the games.
 
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I am baffled how our politicians still haven’t enacted laws to prevent adding medical bills to bankruptcies, like college tuition loans? Healthcare companies and hospitals not offered enough bribe like the banks?
 

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Rainee

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60% of bankruptcies caused by medical bills.
I am baffled how our politicians still haven’t enacted laws to prevent adding medical bills to bankruptcies, like college tuition loans? Healthcare companies and hospitals not offered enough bribe like the banks?
And 0% medical bankruptcies in other countries even though they spend only one third .
You could of combined all these posts into one post...fishing for responses by adding more troll bait? Anyways, I'll bite.

Anyhow, you are free to open a nonprofit clinic to help those in need, and or you can work as a physician in one. Some dentists/doctors I know actually give up a few weeks to just do charity cases. You could do that to. The world will never be fair- but they are doing their best to help out the less fortunate. I even hold dental clinic days where we work in the community for free. So what are YOU doing that helps out the community?
 
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I get what you are saying- and what you are saying is noble...but it makes zero sense if theres a recession which you are banking on. It would literally send us into a great depression. I mean you are talking in hypotheticals...and I am to. If anything- universal healthcare should be implemented when the economy is strong...not when its weak- which you are proposing.

I personally love debating economics and stock market, and policies like that. So I guess I'm shifting the topic towards more of an economic topic. So I guess the question is how economically do we make this work when in recessions- you need to jump start things...not tax more in order to create more social programs....?
Reason why you set regulations on corporations and Wall Street, and let regular people control the economy(embedded liberalism, unionism). That's how you build a growing economy like the U.S. had post-WW2 until Carter and Reagan came along with their neoliberalism. Look at Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway: strong unions, strong labor laws and regulations on corporate capitalism. Which something that American corporations dislike, Walmart's failure in Germany is good example.

You know about sales tax? Paying 6-7-8-9% per dollar.

How about adding some kind of sales tax on Wall Street? They don't pay any kind of tax when they buy millions and millions dollars worth of stocks. Nevermind 7-8% "sales tax," if you add just one-half of 1% of a tax, it'll produce $300 billion per year. With that $300 billion, you can do a lot of things with that: rebuild public works, fund a national healthcare service, create many jobs that won't be outsource.
 
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sb247

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Reason why you set regulations on corporations and Wall Street, and let regular people control the economy(embedded liberalism, unionism). That's how you build a growing economy like the U.S. had post-WW2 until Carter and Reagan came along with their neoliberalism. Look at Denmark, Germany, Sweden, Norway: strong unions, strong labor laws and regulations on corporate capitalism. Which something that American corporations dislike, Walmart's failure in Germany is good example.

You know about sales tax? Paying 6-7-8-9% per dollar.

How about adding some kind of sales tax on Wall Street? They don't pay any kind of tax when they buy millions and millions dollars worth of stocks. Nevermind 7-8% "sales tax," if you add just one-half of 1% of a tax, it'll produce $300 billion per year. With that $300 billion, you can do a lot of things with that: rebuild public works, fund a national healthcare service, create many jobs that won't be outsource.
But why is that money “yours” to take?
 

tr

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But why is that money “yours” to take?
Why isn't it 'yours' ('you' meaning the government)? Any accumulation of financial wealth is totally dependent on social institutions and the legal infrastructure provided by the government. You can't make a dime without the government printing/guaranteeing the money and overseeing the economic institutions and legal/judicial framework that adjudicates disputes and prevents people from just taking what they want from others. If you want to live on an island with no government, no taxes, no laws, and no social network, go ahead. But there will be no money there to argue over.
 
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sb247

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Why isn't it 'yours' ('you' meaning the government)? Any accumulation of financial wealth is totally dependent on social institutions and the legal infrastructure provided by the government. You can't make a dime without the government printing/guaranteeing the money and overseeing the economic institutions and legal/judicial framework that adjudicates disputes and prevents people from just taking what they want from others. If you want to live on an island with no government, no taxes, no laws, and no social network, go ahead. But there will be no money there to argue over.
Ah, so I should thank the benevolent govt for any fraction they generously allow me to keep?

Screw that noise
 
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Rainee

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I see both sides of the story, but the fact is that owning the rights to someone's labor and schooling just doesn't make sense. Yes we are all taxpayers into the system and the system keeps society in tact. But having a right to someone's labor for your healthcare makes no sense.

If there is no doctors, then how can that right be fulfilled? You can still fulfill your right to pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech whatever...by being YOU, by being born into this world. But if there was no such thing as a doctor, then how would you have a right to healthcare? You would probably just be praying and chanting into the wilderness for things to heal- and it wouldn't- and you would probably die from Polio or something.

That's what I don't get. But alas, people think that free schooling, free healthcare should be a right because we are the richest country on the planet. I guess we own the rights to teachers labor to teach us for free. And guess what? Schooling also has a two payer system. Private and public schools. Should we just outlaw all private schools and make them public because it's not fair that the public system is failing? Should Stanford become free and accept everyone? So anyways, it's a convoluted topic and it is what it is.
 

tr

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Ah, so I should thank the benevolent govt for any fraction they generously allow me to keep?
You should thank them for the legal structures that support your ability to live and work in a modern society with money and voting and stuff, rather than somewhere where your caveman neighbors are waiting to bash in your head and cannibalize your brains or the local chieftain is keeping you for slave labor and cutting your hand off for stealing food.

BTW they need money to keep it up.
 

sb247

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You should thank them for the legal structures that support your ability to live and work in a modern society with money and voting and stuff, rather than somewhere where your caveman neighbors are waiting to bash in your head and cannibalize your brains or the local chieftain is keeping you for slave labor and cutting your hand off for stealing food.

BTW they need money to keep it up.
That’s a pretty big false choice fallacy there, we can definitely have a govt without an income tax or a universal healthcare system

You can do better at structuring an argument
 
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I see both sides of the story, but the fact is that owning the rights to someone's labor and schooling just doesn't make sense. Yes we are all taxpayers into the system and the system keeps society in tact. But having a right to someone's labor for your healthcare makes no sense.

If there is no doctors, then how can that right be fulfilled? You can still fulfill your right to pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech whatever...by being YOU, by being born into this world. But if there was no such thing as a doctor, then how would you have a right to healthcare? You would probably just be praying and chanting into the wilderness for things to heal- and it wouldn't- and you would probably die from Polio or something.

That's what I don't get. But alas, people think that free schooling, free healthcare should be a right because we are the richest country on the planet. I guess we own the rights to teachers labor to teach us for free. And guess what? Schooling also has a two payer system. Private and public schools. Should we just outlaw all private schools and make them public because it's not fair that the public system is failing? Should Stanford become free and accept everyone? So anyways, it's a convoluted topic and it is what it is.
That's socialism for ya. Meaning "means of production." Putting our resources to something: police, firefighters, public education, roads, etc.

In the healthcare market, the prices has gone ridiculously high for the working and middle-class including the premiums for health insurance with questionable practices: death panels and crappy coverage. So, the People wants put to their resources into the healthcare market. They can do so since we're a capitalistic society, right? That's capitalism for ya!

You have to pay attention to the Democratic primary. Medicare-4-All is pretty much the focal point of the debate, and corporate Democrats, DNC, and their donors knows this and know they can't win the primary without M4A being involved in the conversation. Pretty much 2020 is going to be Medicare-4-All and as well with other policies.
 
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That’s a pretty big false choice fallacy there, we can definitely have a govt without an income tax or a universal healthcare system

You can do better at structuring an argument
Libertarianism is a fallacy. All it does is promote corporatism(corporate socialism and corporate capitalism), government corruption, monopolization, and unresponsive action from officials. All this ends with utter chaos to a society bringing to a revolt from the People.

Just give it up with the Swansonism and pure-libertarianism. No one is going to vote for it.
 
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sb247

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Libertarianism is a fallacy. All it does is promote corporatism(corporate socialism and corporate capitalism), government corruption, monopolization, and unresponsive action from officials. All this ends with utter chaos to a society bringing to a revolt from the People.

Just give it up with the Swansonism and pure-libertarianism. No one is going to vote for it.
Libertarianism doesn’t promote “corporate socialism”. What are you on?
 
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Libertarianism doesn’t promote “corporate socialism”. What are you on?
But it's prone to it. In your ideal world, you're giving corporations all the power. Free-market economics( in other word, outsourcing), unregulated corporate capitalism (eliminating competition) and rigging the market while price-gouging society by giving inferior goods(unregulated). You want to eat half-spoiled meat and produce and paying for it?

Doing so, corporations with their profits are going to influence government to favor them. Especially when people are going to revolt.
 

sb247

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But it's prone to it. In your ideal world, you're giving corporations all the power. Free-market economics( in other word, outsourcing), unregulated corporate capitalism (eliminating competition) and rigging the market while price-gouging society by giving inferior goods(unregulated). You want to eat half-spoiled meat and produce and paying for it?

Doing so, corporations with their profits are going to influence government to favor them. Especially when people are going to revolt.
The point of libertarianism is a minimalist govt that cannot be weilded as a weapon, you are just making stuff up

And the free market does mean more competition in almost every case
 

tr

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That’s a pretty big false choice fallacy there, we can definitely have a govt without an income tax or a universal healthcare system

You can do better at structuring an argument
Of course you can have govt without income tax, but you would have to have some other type of tax to fund it. You can't run the govt on nothing. Even a minimalist libertarian govt would still need some funding, although obviously less than one that provided broader supports for citizen well-being.

Universal access to health care is obviously optional, but a majority of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support it.


Look, my post was in response to your saying the govt has no right to tax anybody. Right or no right, without funding for any governmental functions we would be back to anarchy and might-makes-right, and money is useless under those conditions.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr

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Universal access to health care is obviously optional, but a majority of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support it.

That's true but with a huge asterisk.


It's no longer majority supported if:
-taxes go up
-private insurance goes away
-increased wait times for tests/procedures

Figure 11 in my link.

Since it's almost impossible that none of those things will happen, it no longer has the support of the majority.
 

sb247

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Of course you can have govt without income tax, but you would have to have some other type of tax to fund it. You can't run the govt on nothing. Even a minimalist libertarian govt would still need some funding, although obviously less than one that provided broader supports for citizen well-being.

Universal access to health care is obviously optional, but a majority of Americans (including 53% of Republicans) support it.


Look, my post was in response to your saying the govt has no right to tax anybody. Right or no right, without funding for any governmental functions we would be back to anarchy and might-makes-right, and money is useless under those conditions.
It’s not even close to a majority when you actually mention what it would take to make it happen, you’re being dishonest

And even if it was 80%, and it’s not....it doesn’t matter if requires all that theft to make it happen
 
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It’s not even close to a majority when you actually mention what it would take to make it happen, you’re being dishonest

And even if it was 80%, and it’s not....it doesn’t matter if requires all that theft to make it happen
How much MORE THAN WHAT WE PAY NOW, will it take? Can you be specific? The gullible people are confused because people like you lie left and right as if only the Medicare-for-all will cost money and the private insurance is FREE. Look at this article, people are paying ten times for insulin here compared to Canada. I don’t know how anyone in the right frame of mind would defend this kind of stupidity. Are you totally blind?
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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How much MORE THAN WHAT WE PAY NOW, will it take? Can you be specific? The gullible people are confused because people like you lie left and right as if only the Medicare-for-all will cost money and the private insurance is FREE. Look at this article, people are paying ten times for insulin here compared to Canada. I don’t know how anyone in the right frame of mind would defend this kind of stupidity. Are you totally blind?
Nice try troll
 
May 22, 2018
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I see both sides of the story, but the fact is that owning the rights to someone's labor and schooling just doesn't make sense. Yes we are all taxpayers into the system and the system keeps society in tact. But having a right to someone's labor for your healthcare makes no sense.

If there is no doctors, then how can that right be fulfilled? You can still fulfill your right to pursuit of happiness, freedom of speech whatever...by being YOU, by being born into this world. But if there was no such thing as a doctor, then how would you have a right to healthcare? You would probably just be praying and chanting into the wilderness for things to heal- and it wouldn't- and you would probably die from Polio or something.

That's what I don't get. But alas, people think that free schooling, free healthcare should be a right because we are the richest country on the planet. I guess we own the rights to teachers labor to teach us for free. And guess what? Schooling also has a two payer system. Private and public schools. Should we just outlaw all private schools and make them public because it's not fair that the public system is failing? Should Stanford become free and accept everyone? So anyways, it's a convoluted topic and it is what it is.
We have gone through this. You keep ignoring what others have to say and keep on repeating same lies/republican talk points. Nothing is free and no one is asking for free healthcare . Just tax the people as much as other countries do and provide the similar care, do not let private vultures to rob the vulnerable innocents. One such theft you repeatedly defend is here.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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First answer the question then you can call me troll. Just because I don’t subscribe to your lies, I don’t become a troll. That way, you are a troll to me too.
No you're a troll because you refuse to listen and think. You come in here spouting your nonsense and when it's proven to be nonsense you ignore that then come back in a week or two and start the cycle all over again.

I've tried in good-faith to engage you for the past several months and have gotten absolutely nothing for it other than your continued nonsense with no evidence that you're even trying to understand the points that the rest of us are making. That is what makes you a troll.
 
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No you're a troll because you refuse to listen and think. You come in here spouting your nonsense and when it's proven to be nonsense you ignore that then come back in a week or two and start the cycle all over again.

I've tried in good-faith to engage you for the past several months and have gotten absolutely nothing for it other than your continued nonsense with no evidence that you're even trying to understand the points that the rest of us are making. That is what makes you a troll.
You never listen to anything I say even though the rest of the world agree with what I say. So by your definition, you are the troll. You continue to say paying three times premiums than other countries and paying ten times for the same drug than the neighboring country, is somehow superior. That is what you call non sense and stupid. I have given more proof than you but you continue to ignore them because you don’t have any answers.
 
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They don't have any answers. Just the same "let's go back to pre-ACA" argument.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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You never listen to anything I say even though the rest of the world agree with what I say. So by your definition, you are the troll. You continue to say paying three times premiums than other countries and paying ten times for the same drug than the neighboring country, is somehow superior. That is what you call non sense and stupid. I have given more proof than you but you continue to ignore them because you don’t have any answers.
I have said nothing of the sort. Prove otherwise since I haven't deleted any posts in this thread.

As to your most recent idiocy, I have several times explained how one can find cheap insulin. Not sure how it keeps escaping you.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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They don't have any answers. Just the same "let's go back to pre-ACA" argument.
Sure we do. Get government and insurance out as much as possible. For 90% of medical issues they just make things more expensive.
 
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Cheeni17

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You never listen to anything I say even though the rest of the world agree with what I say. So by your definition, you are the troll. You continue to say paying three times premiums than other countries and paying ten times for the same drug than the neighboring country, is somehow superior. That is what you call non sense and stupid. I have given more proof than you but you continue to ignore them because you don’t have any answers.
If all the world agrees it must be why you have so many likes on your posts. Go move to Europe if you want socialized healthcare. We won’t miss you
 
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Cheeni17

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Medical premiums is set to surpass the household income in 11 years. Probably only the top 1% and the kings would be able to afford the medical insurance. I hope I live that long to see how things pan out. Those who ridicule Bernie are going to regret it and pay dearly. Unfortunately we don’t think into future beyond one day.
Then we can finally go to cash like everything else and have a more free market than slobama forcing us to buy stupid expensive healthcare plans
 

Rainee

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A lot of British dentists went to cash fee for service after universal dental care was introduced. If you go on their websites you will see cash prices and happy dentists that don’t deal with insurance.

Lots of dentists don’t take the universal gov coverage because it pays to little to cover the cost.

It has resulted in a huge disparity of dental care shortage ironically. So I guess if Medicare for all comes along it would introduce a cash free market and would actually do good for some professions.
 
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