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"The suit alleges that for many years these makers of generic drugs operated under an agreement not to compete with one another and to settle instead for what these companies referred to as a "fair share" of the market to avoid pushing prices down through competition.

But by 2012, the suit says, Teva and the other companies decided to "take this understanding to the next level." It alleges that "Teva and its co-conspirators embarked on one of the most egregious and damaging price-fixing conspiracies in the history of the United States."

The suit says that the companies sought not only to maintain their "fair share" of the generic drug market, but also to "significantly raise prices on as many drugs as possible."

Is this the free market fixing the healthcare system? Asking for a friend...

 

VA Hopeful Dr

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"The suit alleges that for many years these makers of generic drugs operated under an agreement not to compete with one another and to settle instead for what these companies referred to as a "fair share" of the market to avoid pushing prices down through competition.

But by 2012, the suit says, Teva and the other companies decided to "take this understanding to the next level." It alleges that "Teva and its co-conspirators embarked on one of the most egregious and damaging price-fixing conspiracies in the history of the United States."

The suit says that the companies sought not only to maintain their "fair share" of the generic drug market, but also to "significantly raise prices on as many drugs as possible."

Is this the free market fixing the healthcare system? Asking for a friend...

I'm aware of that lawsuit. The weird thing is, the wholesale prices for most generics are quite inexpensive.

7 months after crestor went generic, the price was down to $15 for a 90 day supply wholesale. If that's price-fixing, I'm not impressed.
 
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I'm aware of that lawsuit. The weird thing is, the wholesale prices for most generics are quite inexpensive.

7 months after crestor went generic, the price was down to $15 for a 90 day supply wholesale. If that's price-fixing, I'm not impressed.
They probably didn’t think they could get away with collusion on every drug, so they only picked some drugs. Either way, imagine a libertarian government where this wasn’t illegal. It’s not a strong case for unrestrained free market capitalism in healthcare sector.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr

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They probably didn’t think they could get away with collusion on every drug, so they only picked some drugs. Either way, imagine a libertarian government where this wasn’t illegal. It’s not a strong case for unrestrained free market capitalism in healthcare sector.
Fewer regulations would lead to more than just a handful of generic manufacturers, and its harder to get 50 people to collude than 5.

Ignoring that, most liberterians are against monopolies/oligopolies.
 
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It’s amazing to me how many people can’t see that govt caused that problem and will still call for more govt
Please explain how the government causes corporate entities to collude. If the answer is through FDA and other safety regulations, remember you are completely against mid level independence with your solution being government regulations mandating what you consider to be unsafe healthcare providers, and this is congruent in your mind with your libertarian philosophy.
 
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Fewer regulations would lead to more than just a handful of generic manufacturers, and its harder to get 50 people to collude than 5.

Ignoring that, most liberterians are against monopolies/oligopolies.
Less regulation wouldn’t necessarily lead to more drug companies; in fact, collusion to destroy any start up companies would be more likely to occur than collusion to price fix, as we’ve already seen happen in a system with checks in place for this.
 
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Sure we do. Get government and insurance out as much as possible. For 90% of medical issues they just make things more expensive.
See. Same old libertarian argument. Repeating the same words that Ron Paul said multiple times. Are you going to believe a former doctor who failed to recognize the political era of the 1950's and 1960's? When labor unions' influences were strong that helped a steady growth on the economy after World War 2.
 
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A lot of British dentists went to cash fee for service after universal dental care was introduced. If you go on their websites you will see cash prices and happy dentists that don’t deal with insurance.

Lots of dentists don’t take the universal gov coverage because it pays to little to cover the cost.

It has resulted in a huge disparity of dental care shortage ironically. So I guess if Medicare for all comes along it would introduce a cash free market and would actually do good for some professions.
Yet, the British people don't have much good-paying jobs to pay for those cost. Same with the U.S., they suffered 40 years of neoliberal policies(Thatcherism) from their two political parties and then EU which caused the Brexit fiasco.
 
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Less regulation wouldn’t necessarily lead to more drug companies; in fact, collusion to destroy any start up companies would be more likely to occur than collusion to price fix, as we’ve already seen happen in a system with checks in place for this.
He doesn't understand how corporate capitalism works and how libertarian economic policies leads to more problems, internally and externally.
 

Rainee

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Yet, the British people don't have much good-paying jobs to pay for those cost. Same with the U.S., they suffered 40 years of neoliberal policies(Thatcherism) from their two political parties and then EU which caused the Brexit fiasco.
Huh? What that does mean? When I went to some of the websites, the cash fees they charge is better then my insurance fees in the states. Basically it has opened a cash market for dentistry because dentists do not want to deal with Britains Medicare for All option.

My comment originally meant that while you think medicare for all solved the need for cheaper, universal coverage for the people- it actually created a shortage of dentists due to low reimbursements and poor working conditions, that it inevitably created a cash model market for dentists. Now they just advertise a cash/membership option that patients pay as you go for private dental care.

My comment was basically saying that it opened the doors for a cash based free market, and that some industries like dentistry would probably benefit from this. Not so much medicine though.
 
May 22, 2018
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It is pathetic that we glorify this system as the best in the world. Any mention of the government in our country, all the conservatives, libertarians shout about imaginary bureaucracies, what is their response to how the hospital and insurance company treat the innocent and vulnerable patient , in real? In most of the countries, the total cost of the hip replacement is from $5000 to $10000. But here the copay itself is over $7000, in addition to dishing out $25000 EVERY YEAR. But we should not complain because all other countries are socialist countries!!! If you question this, you become a troll.
Why Your Health Insurer Doesn't Care About Your Big Bills
 
Mar 19, 2019
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Have your own opinion and you are a troll...

How about don’t truly listen to our argument because YOU are a troll.

Libertarians believe in the power of financial Darwinism. If a company is expensive, unprofessional, or provides poor service, other companies will come up and fill that void.
 
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Have your own opinion and you are a troll...

How about don’t truly listen to our argument because YOU are a troll.

Libertarians believe in the power of financial Darwinism. If a company is expensive, unprofessional, or provides poor service, other companies will come up and fill that void.
No, they won’t, because that company will also destroy any competition. Look at De Beers diamond cartel if you want an example.
 
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Without government support how will companies have enough power to form monopolies? De Beers only became that powerful by buying off politicans, and forming alliances with other corporations which are heavily backed by the US government, ie General Electric.

In a completely free market, corporations would not exist. Companies gain this much power only by being able to bribe large government entities.

 
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Without government support how will companies have enough power to form monopolies? De Beers only became that powerful by buying off politicans, and forming alliances with other corporations which are heavily backed by the US government, ie General Electric.

In a completely free market, corporations would not exist. Companies gain this much power only by being able to bribe large government entities.

In a completely free market corporations would not exist? Wut?
 
May 22, 2018
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Have your own opinion and you are a troll...

How about don’t truly listen to our argument because YOU are a troll.

Libertarians believe in the power of financial Darwinism. If a company is expensive, unprofessional, or provides poor service, other companies will come up and fill that void.
I see a lot of insurance companies out there, but I don’t see anyone to come up and fill the void. On the other hand, every one is racing to beat the others in raping the innocent.

I am willing to listen if you come up with something that is based on reality and that is accepted all over the world. I am not a sheep and I will never accept the talking points of mouth pieces of the vultures to brainwash the gullible. I am independent, open thinker who don’t blindly follow an individual or a party.
 
May 22, 2018
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Govt. mandated healthcare isn't going to stop people from being poor, lol
True. But it will make their life considerably better. They wouldn’t have to worry about losing everything they worked for , in case they get a catastrophic illness which is not in their control.
 
May 22, 2018
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Without government support how will companies have enough power to form monopolies? De Beers only became that powerful by buying off politicans, and forming alliances with other corporations which are heavily backed by the US government, ie General Electric.

In a completely free market, corporations would not exist. Companies gain this much power only by being able to bribe large government entities.

You are accepting that the corporations buying off the politicians and forming alliances with other corporations to become powerful. Do you believe that they do this for their own good or to serve the people better? If it is the former, why are you on their side? Why do you think this is the best we can do?
 

AnatomyGrey12

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I see a lot of insurance companies out there, but I don’t see anyone to come up and fill the void. On the other hand, every one is racing to beat the others in raping the innocent.

I am willing to listen if you come up with something that is based on reality and that is accepted all over the world. I am not a sheep and I will never accept the talking points of mouth pieces of the vultures to brainwash the gullible. I am independent, open thinker who don’t blindly follow an individual or a party.
Lol you come in here and spout the same 5 lines every so often and completely ignore when anyone actually addresses anything you say. I'm kind of amazed you aren't banned yet for trolling.
 

Stagg737

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ut we have to understand that the government comprised of employees are different from the politicians and appointed officials with power. There is no corruption or inefficiency with the government employees, they are as powerless as we are.
HA. No corruption or inefficiency with gov employees? Spoken like someone who's never worked for the gov, the naivety is cringeworthy.

Please explain how the government causes corporate entities to collude. If the answer is through FDA and other safety regulations, remember you are completely against mid level independence with your solution being government regulations mandating what you consider to be unsafe healthcare providers, and this is congruent in your mind with your libertarian philosophy.
Gov doesn't cause corporate entities to collude, it simply protects the collusion once the politicians are paid off.

I see a lot of insurance companies out there, but I don’t see anyone to come up and fill the void.
Google "direct primary care".

I am not a sheep and I will never accept the talking points of mouth pieces of the vultures to brainwash the gullible. I am independent, open thinker who don’t blindly follow an individual or a party.
Says the person telling everyone to just trust Bernie and the dems, lol.
 
May 22, 2018
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Lol you come in here and spout the same 5 lines every so often and completely ignore when anyone actually addresses anything you say. I'm kind of amazed you aren't banned yet for trolling.
Banning? Wow !!! If someone doesn’t agree with me, ban him. Kind of convenient, right? So much for freedom of speech.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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So interestingly, I had to start a patient on one of the new sub-q cholesterol drugs last week. Patient is uninsured so I go looking at the drug company's patient assistance program.

You can get the drug for free if your income is less than 500% of the federal poverty level. This woman lived with her husband, so as long as they made less than 82.3k/year she got the drug for free.

This of course caught my interest. Novo Nordisk (makes lots of insulins) will do the same for 400% FPL. For a childless couple, this translates to 67.6k/year.

Not too shabby.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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So interestingly, I had to start a patient on one of the new sub-q cholesterol drugs last week. Patient is uninsured so I go looking at the drug company's patient assistance program.

You can get the drug for free if your income is less than 500% of the federal poverty level. This woman lived with her husband, so as long as they made less than 82.3k/year she got the drug for free.

This of course caught my interest. Novo Nordisk (makes lots of insulins) will do the same for 400% FPL. For a childless couple, this translates to 67.6k/year.

Not too shabby.
BUT PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET INSULIN :rage:
 
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VA Hopeful Dr

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BUT PEOPLE ARE DYING BECAUSE THEY CAN'T GET INSULIN :rage:
Admittedly people aren't used to having to actually think about cost. Its a fairly new problem and very few people (doctors or patients) are aware of the myriad of options out there.
 
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You summed up the entire problem. People are used to getting top medical care and not worrying about the cost. If people were forced to choose efficiently, medicine would be much cheaper.
 
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VA Hopeful Dr

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You summed up the entire problem. People are used to getting top medical care and not worrying about the cost. If people were forced to choose efficiently, medicine would be much cheaper.
Yep.

Now obviously you can't really shop around when you're having a stroke or need a heart transplant. But that elective knee replacement or PCP to manage your diabetes...
 

VincentAdultman

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Banning? Wow !!! If someone doesn’t agree with me, ban him. Kind of convenient, right? So much for freedom of speech.
First, you don’t know what freedom of speech is.

Second, you made the same shtty argument about insulin on page nine that was already addressed like five pages ago.

So it’s not that people disagree with you, it’s just that your takes are bad and you’re bad at arguing.
 
May 22, 2018
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First, you don’t know what freedom of speech is.

Second, you made the same shtty argument about insulin on page nine that was already addressed like five pages ago.

So it’s not that people disagree with you, it’s just that your takes are bad and you’re bad at arguing.
I believe I have said everything that I had to say. There is nothing I can add more. Probably this is my last post in this thread. I don’t want to get banned, it is not worth it.

I did not make any argument about insulin, I was only stating the fact. I said that if a drug company sells a certain insulin for $1000 in Canada but sells the same thing for $12000 in US, it is thievery. I stand by that. They do the same thing with every other drug, for example Epipen and truvada ? Now @VA Hopeful Dr blamed it on some patent issue. You guys might be ready to accept those excuses but I do not care. Everybody knows that these drug companies bribe the politicians, tinker with the patent laws, killing the generic version and all the non sense. But accepting these acts as normal and defending those people is not something I will ever do. This price gouging is immoral, extortion, thievery and it has to stop. We should not allow these drug companies to take even a cent more from our citizens than the other countries.

They are expecting the healthcare cost to exceed household income in 10 years. Is it sustainable? At least a dozen of you keep attacking me but no one is coming up with any alternate solution except @VA Hopeful Dr . He said that the private insurance has to go away which I agree with 100%. He said he is open to drug import and price control, which I agree with 100%. But he also said that the government should play no part in healthcare which I do not agree with. I believe in the opposite.

Anyway, it was nothing personal, I put forth only what I genuinely thought that would work for everyone. There is no hidden agenda and there is nothing for me to gain. I am not a freeloader, thankfully my household income is many hundreds of thousands. It is just my belief that the system should be designed to work for bottom 95%. If it does, the remaining 5% will have no problem thriving. But unfortunately it is the other way around in this country. The 95% is brainwashed into believe that if they defend and endure what is going on, somehow one day they will belong with the 5%. Ironically they bought that !!!

Peace. Have a nice time. Bye.
 

AnatomyGrey12

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I did not make any argument about insulin, I was only stating the fact. I said that if a drug company sells a certain insulin for $1000 in Canada but sells the same thing for $12000 in US, it is thievery. I stand by that.
Addressed multiple times.
hey do the same thing with every other drug, for example Epipen and truvada ?
Addressed multiple times.
blamed it on some patent issue.
It is a patent issue, that's just fact. Oh and addressed multiple times.
You guys might be ready to accept those excuses but I do not care.
Facts are not excuses. Addressed multiple times.
killing the generic version and all the non sense.
Government patent law kills generic versions. Addressed multiple times.
But accepting these acts as normal and defending those people is not something I will ever do.
The problem is you fail to see how big of a hand the government has in these acts. Addressed multiple times.
We should not allow these drug companies to take even a cent more from our citizens than the other countries.
Ok cool we'll just stop doing all the R&D we do for the rest of the world and see how that works out. Addressed multiple times.
I am not a freeloader, thankfully my household income is many hundreds of thousands.
Lol.

Tldr. You spout the same 6 talking points over and over which were addressed multiple times, by multiple people.
 
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sb247

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I believe I have said everything that I had to say. There is nothing I can add more. Probably this is my last post in this thread. I don’t want to get banned, it is not worth it.

I did not make any argument about insulin, I was only stating the fact. I said that if a drug company sells a certain insulin for $1000 in Canada but sells the same thing for $12000 in US, it is thievery. I stand by that. They do the same thing with every other drug, for example Epipen and truvada ? Now @VA Hopeful Dr blamed it on some patent issue. You guys might be ready to accept those excuses but I do not care. Everybody knows that these drug companies bribe the politicians, tinker with the patent laws, killing the generic version and all the non sense. But accepting these acts as normal and defending those people is not something I will ever do. This price gouging is immoral, extortion, thievery and it has to stop. We should not allow these drug companies to take even a cent more from our citizens than the other countries.

They are expecting the healthcare cost to exceed household income in 10 years. Is it sustainable? At least a dozen of you keep attacking me but no one is coming up with any alternate solution except @VA Hopeful Dr . He said that the private insurance has to go away which I agree with 100%. He said he is open to drug import and price control, which I agree with 100%. But he also said that the government should play no part in healthcare which I do not agree with. I believe in the opposite.

Anyway, it was nothing personal, I put forth only what I genuinely thought that would work for everyone. There is no hidden agenda and there is nothing for me to gain. I am not a freeloader, thankfully my household income is many hundreds of thousands. It is just my belief that the system should be designed to work for bottom 95%. If it does, the remaining 5% will have no problem thriving. But unfortunately it is the other way around in this country. The 95% is brainwashed into believe that if they defend and endure what is going on, somehow one day they will belong with the 5%. Ironically they bought that !!!

Peace. Have a nice time. Bye.
Again, you can walk into walmart with $50 and buy a month worth of insulin
 
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May 22, 2018
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The US government funds the research of a drug, a private company somehow gets the patent rights, sells one month supply for $2000 to US citizens which costs only $6 for manufacturing, makes many billions in profits, returns nothing to the tax payer, pays $0 in taxes. But no one abjects, because they are brainwashed to believe that this is what capitalism is and anyone who raises his voice is a socialist. This is very similar to oil companies ripping off the national resources.
 

sb247

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The US government funds the research of a drug, a private company somehow gets the patent rights, sells one month supply for $2000 to US citizens which costs only $6 for manufacturing, makes many billions in profits, returns nothing to the tax payer, pays $0 in taxes. But no one abjects, because they are brainwashed to believe that this is what capitalism is and anyone who raises his voice is a socialist. This is very similar to oil companies ripping off the national resources.
govt funded research isn't capitalism, let's just end it and avoid this type of situation altogether...deal?
 
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May 22, 2018
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The US government funds the research of a drug, a private company somehow gets the patent rights, sells one month supply for $2000 to US citizens which costs only $6 for manufacturing, makes many billions in profits, returns nothing to the tax payer, pays $0 in taxes. But no one abjects, because they are brainwashed to believe that this is what capitalism is and anyone who raises his voice is a socialist. This is very similar to oil companies ripping off the national resources.
Ironically, the same drug is getting sold for as low as $6 in other countries. But US citizens funded the research, they have to pay $2000. Funny, isn’t it? The drug company executive has the nerves to defend this atrocity in front of the congress saying that they are charging US citizens this high to fund research AND GET AWAY WITH IT. Now, who gave them the power to forcefully collect funds from common people to fund THEIR research? Did they ask the patient IF THEY ARE WILLING TO FUND THEIR RESEARCH? Are they going to share the profit from the research with the patients? Well, let me stop, otherwise people will me troll, socialist etc
 
May 22, 2018
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govt funded research isn't capitalism, let's just end it and avoid this type of situation altogether...deal?
I am glad you are saying this is not capitalism. Absolutely it has to stop . But if you take a poll and ask people if they are for the government to put a price cap, at least 60% will abject, shouting “it is socialism”, “govt should not control every aspect of my life”, “Government should stay out of the way of the business “, “government cannot do anything right”, etc. The brainwashing is that strong !!!
 

sb247

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I am glad you are saying this is not capitalism. Absolutely it has to stop . But if you take a poll and ask people if they are for the government to put a price cap, at least 60% will abject, shouting “it is socialism”, “govt should not control every aspect of my life”, “Government should stay out of the way of the business “, “government cannot do anything right”, etc. The brainwashing is that strong !!!
Govt should stay out of research and out of price control. Solved
 

VincentAdultman

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I am glad you are saying this is not capitalism. Absolutely it has to stop . But if you take a poll and ask people if they are for the government to put a price cap, at least 60% will abject, shouting “it is socialism”, “govt should not control every aspect of my life”, “Government should stay out of the way of the business “, “government cannot do anything right”, etc. The brainwashing is that strong !!!
I agree with @SB but also I just want to point out that the highest rated tv show for a long time was Big Bang Theory. Before that it was one of the 87578 CSI spinoffs.

What I’m trying to say is that people are dumb.
 

VA Hopeful Dr

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I agree with @SB but also I just want to point out that the highest rated tv show for a long time was Big Bang Theory. Before that it was one of the 87578 CSI spinoffs.

What I’m trying to say is that people are dumb.
:troll:
 
May 22, 2018
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Govt should stay out of research and out of price control. Solved
There is nothing wrong in government involving in the research, in fact they should do more , especially for diseases like diabetes, cancer etc. we can’t expect the private business to come up with cure for any disease which is not in their interest. What is wrong is that after finding the cure using the government money but gifting the patent away to private companies for some bribes. Instead, the government should keep the patent, give the “manufacturing only” right to the cheapest generic drug company, selected through proper bidding process. Then they can sell the drugs to the population with whatever the profit margin necessary to recover the original investment and fund future research projects. This way, the population need not pay $2000 for the drug which is worth only $6 that was invented using their money. The government can sell for $50 or even $100 and still it is a lot cheaper for the population. They can sell in other countries at even a higher price.
 

sb247

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There is nothing wrong in government involving in the research, in fact they should do more , especially for diseases like diabetes, cancer etc. we can’t expect the private business to come up with cure for any disease which is not in their interest. What is wrong is that after finding the cure using the government money but gifting the patent away to private companies for some bribes. Instead, the government should keep the patent, give the “manufacturing only” right to the cheapest generic drug company, selected through proper bidding process. Then they can sell the drugs to the population with whatever the profit margin necessary to recover the original investment and fund future research projects. This way, the population need not pay $2000 for the drug which is worth only $6 that was invented using their money. The government can sell for $50 or even $100 and still it is a lot cheaper for the population. They can sell in other countries at even a higher price.
Nope. Private investment money will pursue research if there is a profit potential and private donations for a charitable emotion.... no public research needed
 
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SurfingDoctor

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It would be interesting if the GOP offered something as far as healthcare reform to compare and see if the popularity of the single-payer system would be as popular (as I suspect some of its popularity is due to a absent of contrary policy from the GOP thus nothing to compare it to)... but well... here we are...