What's so bad about a DO?

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Doccubus

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I'm new to SDN and I want to ask this in the pre-MD forum. I just learned that MD schools take into account all grades even retakes but DO's do not, so I may be a DO candidate in the future. But I get the feeling that everyone wants to stay away from DO schools like it's the plague, why is this?
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Doccubus said:
I'm new to SDN and I want to ask this in the pre-MD forum. I just learned that MD schools take into account all grades even retakes but DO's do not, so I may be a DO candidate in the future. But I get the feeling that everyone wants to stay away from DO schools like it's the plague, why is this?
Click to expand...

If you do a search of the forum, you will see countless DO vs. MD threads.

But in sum, not EVERYONE wants to stay away from DO schools. There will always be those who look down upon the DO because to them, the MD is superior, blah blah. DO schools typically have lower matriculant stat averages and the schools are not as prestigious and well known as Harvard, Stanford, or UCSF. And there's the generalization that DOs typically have a harder time matching into competitive specialties and usually end up going into primary care. However, I've met great DO docs in all sorts of specialties who are happy as a clam doing what they do: PRACTICE MEDICINE, just like any MD. Perhaps there used to be a bigger gap between DOs and MDs, but not anymore.

Shadow a DO and see what you think.
 
huskydock said:
If you do a search of the forum, you will see countless DO vs. MD threads.

But in sum, not EVERYONE wants to stay away from DO schools. There will always be those who look down upon the DO because to them, the MD is superior, blah blah. DO schools typically have lower matriculant stat averages and the schools are not as prestigious and well known as Harvard, Stanford, or UCSF. And there's the generalization that DOs typically have a harder time matching into competitive specialties and usually end up going into primary care. However, I've met great DO docs in all sorts of specialties who are happy as a clam doing what they do: PRACTICE MEDICINE, just like any MD. Perhaps there used to be a bigger gap between DOs and MDs, but not anymore.

Shadow a DO and see what you think.
Click to expand...

This.

My reason personally why I want to stay away from DO is because a lot of people from the "older generation" and even from our generation don't recognize that DO is practically the same as MD and they look down upon it and often will change to an MD if they can. Like I know at the doctors office I go to, theres 4 doctors, 2 MD, 2 DO, and the DO doctors don't but "doctor XX, DO" like how the MD's but "doctor XX, MD" The DO's just leave the DO part out and put "doctor XX" and that is because less informed people will think they aren't real doctors.

So I know that they are receiving an outstanding education the same way I will if I go to an MD school, I just don't want to deal with the crap that they have to deal with, I just hear of so many ridiculous stories I can imagine how annoying it can be. So if I can avoid it, I will.
 
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DO makes it harder to match to something competitive. Otherwise though, you're a practicing doctor. I want to go into primary care so for me it's not too big a deal either way.

If DO is your only or best option, by all means apply for it. Being a PCP is way way better than not practicing at all if medicine is your dream.

Bottom line: DO is less than ideal but way way better than nothing.
 
DO is a back door to practicing medicine, much like offshore MDs for weak candidates.
 
The troll posts are taking longer than I thought.

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MedPR said:
The troll posts are taking longer than I thought.

Sent from my SGH-T999 using SDN Mobile
Click to expand...

Trolls must be asleep.

Sent from my ADR6425LVW using Tapatalk 2
 
Prestige, honey, it's all about prestige.
Higher entrance requirements = artificial sense of a superior education.
 
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Doccubus said:
I'm new to SDN and I want to ask this in the pre-MD forum. I just learned that MD schools take into account all grades even retakes but DO's do not, so I may be a DO candidate in the future. But I get the feeling that everyone wants to stay away from DO schools like it's the plague, why is this?
Click to expand...

Don't listen to any of these clowns who bash DO's. This isn't the 1950's, if you want to be a physician bad enough and are realistic with yourself that you do not a have the stats for an US allo school, i.e., 3.5 GPA with 25ish MCAT, then go DO.

Even though, I personally do not have any DO school's in my application for couple reasons (there are no DO schools in my state, DO schools tend to be quite more expensive than my state schools). However, I wouldn't hesitate to apply if I thought I had no chance of getting into an allo school. There is arrogance in all stages of medicine and is really immature, but it is how some people hide their insecurties. This marothon you are about to run from pre-med to med school to residency to being a practicing physician and is something you are just going to have to get use to. Even dentist are narcissitic now in days about their profession.

There is some truth behind what some people are saying about DO's:
1) school (stats in GPA and MCAT tend to be on the lower end of the spectrum)
2) matching into a competive residency is a bit more difficult,
Anyhow, most people are just worried about what is that little word, "prestige" that an MD>>>DO....If you are going into medicine for that, which a lot of people do go into the profession for, then maybe you would be down on the fact that your two letter's behind your name differ by one letter or vowel.
I know of girls and guys personally who have matched into competitive residencies, i.e., the girl into derm and the guy into opthalmology, so it is really up to you how hard you work and make of your medical education at the end.

In sum, a DO can write prescriptions, Dx and Tx patients in the same or similar manner as an MD. It isn't a back door to entering the field of medicine, but just a different route than maybe you thought you would take when you were a pre med student.

Good luck to you.
 
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If you're shooting for primary care, there's no difference between the two. If you want to be a neurodermasurgeon, you'll have a tougher time getting there.
 
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I'm sorry but I think the only people whose answer you should be taking seriously are residents or attendings. As pre-meds, whether you're anti- or pro-DO, your experience is so limited that it has minimal weight.

OP, I would recommend checking out at least the Allopathic and Osteopathic forums. The med students and, sometimes residents that post there, have greater insight into the osteopathic route.

Personally, I have no problems with the DOs and think they make competent doctors. Let's be honest though, the system works against them compared to MDs.
 
notbobtrustme said:
DO is a back door to practicing medicine, much like offshore MDs for weak candidates.
Click to expand...

there are actually some people who get into MD and DO and choose DO. It probably doesn't happen often but I have a family friend who did just that. she got into one MD program (a US school too) and NYCOM but she liked NYCOM better than the MD school she got into so ended up going there

Edit: I should also add that she had a good undergrad GPA (3.6) and not bad MCAT (29) and has told me that's about the average at NYCOM, so I really don't think it's fair to say that DO is for weak candidates
 
dashrx1019 said:
there are actually some people who get into MD and DO and choose DO. It probably doesn't happen often but I have a family friend who did just that. she got into one MD program (a US school too) and NYCOM but she liked NYCOM better than the MD school she got into so ended up going there

Edit: I should also add that she had a good undergrad GPA (3.6) and not bad MCAT (29) and has told me that's about the average at NYCOM, so I really don't think it's fair to say that DO is for weak candidates
Click to expand...

......it generally is.


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.
 
It is significantly easier to get into a DO school. That makes the DO degree less prestigious. One factor in prestige is how difficult it is for others to achieve what you have. Obviously that is not the only factor, so some non prestigious things(like eating a poop hot dog) are tough to achieve, but for things that have the potential to be called prestigious(like a medical degree), difficulty certainly matters.

Their average MCAT score for DO vs MD is significantly different. Average DO matriculants scored in the ~54th percentile while average MD matriculants scored in the~83rd percentile.

The grade forgiveness of DO schools makes the GPA's impossible to fairly compare. We have no idea if the matriculant pool at DO schools whose avearge DO GPA is ~3.5 is anywhere near that by MD standards. For all we know that number could really be 3.0 or less at MD schools.
 
La Presse said:
......it generally is.


Sent from my iPad using SDN Mobile app.
Click to expand...
Sorry what I meant is it's not fair to say that DO is for weak candidates much like offshore MDs. You are right, overall DO matriculants have lower GPA's and MCAT scores, but at school's like NYCOM where the average is 3.6/29, that seems much higher than what I've seen listed for the average GPA/MCAT at Caribbean schools
 
dashrx1019 said:
Sorry what I meant is it's not fair to say that DO is for weak candidates much like offshore MDs. You are right, overall DO matriculants have lower GPA's and MCAT scores. but at school's like NYCOM where the average is 3.6/29, that seems much higher than what I've seen listed for the average GPA/MCAT at Caribbean schools
Click to expand...

MD > Podiatrist > Carib MD > Nurse Practitioner > Dental Assistant > Disneyland Janitor = DO (not srs)
 
There is nothing wrong with DO. Do a search here to get a sense of the difference. In theory, DOs can specialize in anything they want. I think what matters is USMLE scores. Also look up Osteopathic medicine in Wikipedia; this will you a clue as to why some people see the degree as lesser than MD.
 
http://www.beverlyhillsplasticsurgeryinc.com/


The doctor who owns and runs this multi-millionaire dollar practice that takes up some massive real estate in the prime of Beverly Hills has a D.O. degree.

I think it's all about what you make out of it.

It also depends on the state. .. here in Cali, there is less of a separation between a D.O. and M.D. degree.
 
Fivo said:
MD > Podiatrist > Carib MD > Nurse Practitioner > Dental Assistant > Disneyland Janitor = DO (not srs)
Click to expand...

Duh, Disneyland Janitor > High School Janitor = DO.
 
DOs are fine. Like many in the thread have already said, there used to be a bigger gap between MDs and DOs, but not anymore.
 
chiddler said:
come on that is total nonsense

high school janitor ≥ DO

don't you read anything
Click to expand...

The fact that you put a >= (a real one) on SDN makes you pretty cool.
 
Doccubus said:
I'm new to SDN and I want to ask this in the pre-MD forum. I just learned that MD schools take into account all grades even retakes but DO's do not, so I may be a DO candidate in the future. But I get the feeling that everyone wants to stay away from DO schools like it's the plague, why is this?
Click to expand...

I'm pretty sure you could use the search function.

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=MD+vs+DO

Also, care to contribute to the discussion?
 
Outside of Sdn, there is no difference or drawbacks. People on here see the kids that get C's in organic and think "good luck in DO school lol". What matters the most is what kind of post graduate training you get, and here is where MD's statistically have an advantage. If you want to go into derm or rads, osteo schools will make that a bit tougher. Other than that people are too busy to care. The education is identical.
 
DocFelt said:
Outside of Sdn, there is no difference or drawbacks. People on here see the kids that get C's in organic and think "good luck in DO school lol". What matters the most is what kind of post graduate training you get, and here is where MD's statistically have an advantage. If you want to go into derm or rads, osteo schools will make that a bit tougher. Other than that people are too busy to care. The education is identical.
Click to expand...

Not true. In the real world there is a difference in competitiveness in matching.
 
Getting into DO school is easier and less prestigious. Not that anyone in the real world actually cares
 
DocFelt said:
Outside of Sdn, there is no difference or drawbacks. People on here see the kids that get C's in organic and think "good luck in DO school lol". What matters the most is what kind of post graduate training you get, and here is where MD's statistically have an advantage. If you want to go into derm or rads, osteo schools will make that a bit tougher. Other than that people are too busy to care. The education is identical.
Click to expand...

My thinking on this one has evolved somewhat. When I was teaching MCAT to undergrads, I always tried to convince borderline candidates to go to DO over Caribbean MD, and I stand by that even now (any US degree is going to be easier to land a residency than a foreign degree, period end of story). I also completely agree that the education is largely identical to the majority of US MD schools (Hopkins > DO, but Hopkins > most MD as well). However, now that I'm applying and interviewing in a competitive subspecialty, I think people need to take a long hard look at whether it's worth going DO and narrowing down your realistic residency choices vs trying again the next year for MD.

Basically, the really competitive specialties have a giant stigma against DO candidates. Right or wrong this is verifiably true. Yes there are DO orthopedists, DO dermatologists, and DO ______. But they are few and far between, and just as it's a somewhat unrealistic idea to go to the Caribbean planning on being number one in your class and matching neurosurg, so too it's somewhat unrealistic to go to a DO school with the same plan (hint, lots of people at your school will have the same plan). Competitive fields like ortho where you're looking at 4+ per resident class may be willing to "take a chance" (actual words of a program director) on a DO student, but smaller fields with 1-4 residents per class are harder pressed to (urology, derm, ENT, plastics, neurosurg, rad-onc, ophtho). Yes you may think that you're all in on primary care now, but people change their minds, especially after actually going and living medicine day-in day-out for 1-2 years in med school, which is something you cannot predict and cannot experience until you're actually in your clinical years of medical school. Either way, why the stigma exists is somewhat outdated, but the fact that it does is indisputable, and it would suck to get bitten in the ass by it.
 
aloepathic said:
My thinking on this one has evolved somewhat. When I was teaching MCAT to undergrads, I always tried to convince borderline candidates to go to DO over Caribbean MD, and I stand by that even now (any US degree is going to be easier to land a residency than a foreign degree, period end of story). I also completely agree that the education is largely identical to the majority of US MD schools (Hopkins > DO, but Hopkins > most MD as well). However, now that I'm applying and interviewing in a competitive subspecialty, I think people need to take a long hard look at whether it's worth going DO and narrowing down your realistic residency choices vs trying again the next year for MD.

Basically, the really competitive specialties have a giant stigma against DO candidates. Right or wrong this is verifiably true. Yes there are DO orthopedists, DO dermatologists, and DO ______. But they are few and far between, and just as it's a somewhat unrealistic idea to go to the Caribbean planning on being number one in your class and matching neurosurg, so too it's somewhat unrealistic to go to a DO school with the same plan (hint, lots of people at your school will have the same plan). Competitive fields like ortho where you're looking at 4+ per resident class may be willing to "take a chance" (actual words of a program director) on a DO student, but smaller fields with 1-4 residents per class are harder pressed to (urology, derm, ENT, plastics, neurosurg, rad-onc, ophtho). Yes you may think that you're all in on primary care now, but people change their minds, especially after actually going and living medicine day-in day-out for 1-2 years in med school, which is something you cannot predict and cannot experience until you're actually in your clinical years of medical school. Either way, why the stigma exists is somewhat outdated, but the fact that it does is indisputable, and it would suck to get bitten in the ass by it.
Click to expand...

I agree with this post. People can give anecdotal evidence that they have seen D.O. graduates in super-competitive fields. I'll give one. I work as a tech for a practice that has a fellowship program in a competitive sub-specialty field. How many D.O. fellows do you think the practice has had in the past 10 years, in a 2 year fellowship with 1 new fellow each year?

There's been exactly one.

You just have to realize that most people that are accepted into medical school are pretty bright, motivated, and generally have a good work ethic. (keyword: MOST).

Ultimately, it's possible to get into nearly any field that an M.D. graduate can get into as a D.O. graduate. However, if you look at residency match lists for D.O. schools (and take into consideration that frequently in the schools' mission statement is an item about producing graduates to serve the community in that geographic area, i.e. producing new primary care docs), it's not uncommon to see IM, FM, EM, Peds at M.D. residency programs. It IS more rare to see Orthopaedic, Neurosurgery, Ophthalmology, etc etc from D.O. graduates matching into M.D. programs.

Of course, it always helps if your dad/mom/uncle/aunt is well-known and respected in the field in which you're trying to match, whether you're a M.D. or D.O. graduate. :laugh:
 
cinamin said:
http://www.beverlyhillsplasticsurgeryinc.com/


The doctor who owns and runs this multi-millionaire dollar practice that takes up some massive real estate in the prime of Beverly Hills has a D.O. degree.

I think it's all about what you make out of it.

It also depends on the state. .. here in Cali, there is less of a separation between a D.O. and M.D. degree.
Click to expand...
damn thats inspirational
 
akinetopsia said:
Of course, it always helps if your dad/mom/uncle/aunt is well-known and respected in the field in which you're trying to match, whether you're a M.D. or D.O. graduate. :laugh:
Click to expand...

True, but if that's the situation and you match as a DO, you will *never* be able to shake the suspicion that you got your position through nepotism ("he's a DO, he only got in because his ___ is the department chair"). You could be the biggest badass around, but people would still assume.

#sadbuttrue
 
I have never seen data comparing DO students to MD students that has been adjusted for the board scores. I would guess that since it is more likely that MD students are, on average, better students than DO students, the MD students would also, on average, score higher on the boards.

I wonder how much of a disparity exists if you compare students with similar board scores rather than comparing the entire pool of DO students to the entire pool of MD students.
 
V5RED said:
I have never seen data comparing DO students to MD students that has been adjusted for the board scores. I would guess that since it is more likely that MD students are, on average, better students than DO students, the MD students would also, on average, score higher on the boards.

I wonder how much of a disparity exists if you compare students with similar board scores rather than comparing the entire pool of DO students to the entire pool of MD students.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily true. The only students at DO schools who take the USMLE are ones trying to match into MD fields (otherwise they just take the COMLEX). This is a self-selected group of DOs who it could be argued are more focused on doing well on Step 1.
 
V5RED said:
I have never seen data comparing DO students to MD students that has been adjusted for the board scores. I would guess that since it is more likely that MD students are, on average, better students than DO students, the MD students would also, on average, score higher on the boards.

I wonder how much of a disparity exists if you compare students with similar board scores rather than comparing the entire pool of DO students to the entire pool of MD students.
Click to expand...

This is a very good point. DO's take people who, on average, perform lower on the MCAT. It is been shown there is some (if meager) correlation between MCAT score and board scores. Thus it would be surprising if DO's weren't matching to less competitive specialties more often considering they are going to average lower scores. There does probably still remain a disparity even when board scores are accounted for but probably far less significant than the brute numbers might appear.

My mother has been a nurse for 30 years. She has no idea what the difference between a DO and an MD is. All of the nurses at the free clinic I volunteer at didn't even know that their was a thing called DO, despite having worked with and for many. Patients are usually even less informed. Sure, there might be some cases in which an older med vet or misinformed mother might discriminate against a DO, but it really is not that common. Being a DO affects your competitiveness in specialties, but past that you are a Doctor. I in nearly all case advocate going MD over DO if given the choice, but if not given the choice DO is totally fine.
 
aloepathic said:
My thinking on this one has evolved somewhat. When I was teaching MCAT to undergrads, I always tried to convince borderline candidates to go to DO over Caribbean MD, and I stand by that even now (any US degree is going to be easier to land a residency than a foreign degree, period end of story). I also completely agree that the education is largely identical to the majority of US MD schools (Hopkins > DO, but Hopkins > most MD as well). However, now that I'm applying and interviewing in a competitive subspecialty, I think people need to take a long hard look at whether it's worth going DO and narrowing down your realistic residency choices vs trying again the next year for MD.

Basically, the really competitive specialties have a giant stigma against DO candidates. Right or wrong this is verifiably true. Yes there are DO orthopedists, DO dermatologists, and DO ______. But they are few and far between, and just as it's a somewhat unrealistic idea to go to the Caribbean planning on being number one in your class and matching neurosurg, so too it's somewhat unrealistic to go to a DO school with the same plan (hint, lots of people at your school will have the same plan). Competitive fields like ortho where you're looking at 4+ per resident class may be willing to "take a chance" (actual words of a program director) on a DO student, but smaller fields with 1-4 residents per class are harder pressed to (urology, derm, ENT, plastics, neurosurg, rad-onc, ophtho). Yes you may think that you're all in on primary care now, but people change their minds, especially after actually going and living medicine day-in day-out for 1-2 years in med school, which is something you cannot predict and cannot experience until you're actually in your clinical years of medical school. Either way, why the stigma exists is somewhat outdated, but the fact that it does is indisputable, and it would suck to get bitten in the ass by it.
Click to expand...

:thumbup:
 
V5RED said:
I have never seen data comparing DO students to MD students that has been adjusted for the board scores. I would guess that since it is more likely that MD students are, on average, better students than DO students, the MD students would also, on average, score higher on the boards.

I wonder how much of a disparity exists if you compare students with similar board scores rather than comparing the entire pool of DO students to the entire pool of MD students.
Click to expand...

DO students who take the USMLE are self-selecting. Weaker students most likely won't waste the money and time preparing for a test they might not do well on.
 
aloepathic said:
Not necessarily true. The only students at DO schools who take the USMLE are ones trying to match into MD fields (otherwise they just take the COMLEX). This is a self-selected group of DOs who it could be argued are more focused on doing well on Step 1.
Click to expand...

notbobtrustme said:
DO students who take the USMLE are self-selecting. Weaker students most likely won't waste the money and time preparing for a test they might not do well on.
Click to expand...

In 2010 approximately 3000 osteopathic students applied to MD residencies.
In 2010 approximately 4100 osteopathic students graduated from DO schools.

Most students at DO schools try to land an MD residency. Simply saying that the group is self selecting doesn't really answer my question. The truth is that most DO students will apply to MD residencies, but most of them will not do as well as MD students.

The question of whether DO students who score nearly as well as their MD counterparts have similar chances of success would be highly relevant in finding out why this is. If it turns out that DO students with similar scores to MD students have similar chances of success, then it weakens the argument for a DO stigma and strengthens the argument that DO students are simply weaker students than MD students. If it turns out that DO students with similar scores to MD students still have significantly lower chances of success, then it strengthens the argument for a DO stigma.
 
V5RED said:
In 2010 approximately 3000 osteopathic students applied to MD residencies.
In 2010 approximately 4100 osteopathic students graduated from DO schools.

Most students at DO schools try to land an MD residency. Simply saying that the group is self selecting doesn't really answer my question. The truth is that most DO students will apply to MD residencies, but most of them will not do as well as MD students.

The question of whether DO students who score nearly as well as their MD counterparts have similar chances of success would be highly relevant in finding out why this is. If it turns out that DO students with similar scores to MD students have similar chances of success, then it weakens the argument for a DO stigma and strengthens the argument that DO students are simply weaker students than MD students. If it turns out that DO students with similar scores to MD students still have significantly lower chances of success, then it strengthens the argument for a DO stigma.
Click to expand...
Do you have any reliable statistics showing that the majority of Osteopathic students are applying to MD residencies? Outside of the SDN world, I've met a lot of people that prefer Osteopathic medicine and want to do Osteopathic residencies. SDN pushes the idea that every DO student is just a failed MD applicants and that they are desperate for MD residencies. Even of the "failed MD applicants," many end up preferring Osteopathic medicine and its residencies.

And in the interest of fairness, yes, many are "failed MD applicants" and many DO students entered with lower scores and are thus not as good, academically, to MD counterparts, although fairness will also say that you can't just assume based on a degree and that there are MDs not as good as DOs; albeit lesser than the other way around.
 
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