What's the difference?

[seanjohn]

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I'm very curious to know, what's the difference between osteopathic manipulation and chiropractic manipulation? Is there a difference, or is it the same? Do osteopaths also do cervical manipulations?

The reason I ask is because I'm completely unfamiliar with osteopaths as we don't have any in Canada. From reading various threads on this site I can see that DO's in the US are equivalent to MD's in training, and are physicians, but do you do the same adjustments as chiropractors?

Can someone highlight the differences for me?

 

[beastmaster]

Do osteopaths also do those dangerous neck manipulations that can rupture the vertebral artery causing a blood clot to form that moves cephalad towards the brain causing a stroke?

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

 

[fuegorama]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

I could not have said this better. Thank you.

 

[seanjohn]

http://www.fallacyfiles.org/loadques.html

so essentially you're saying there is no difference, right?

I'm not sure exactly why you think it's a loaded question. In Canada we don't have osteopaths, they're not legally recognized here. Therefore, I've never been to an osteopath, I don't really know much about the profession, and I've never really heard about osteopathy until I visited this site. I'm just curious to know the difference between osteopathic manipulation, and chiropractic manipulation. Judging by the first 2 responses I received, I guess I won't find my answer here.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

The difference is that OMT is done by a licensed physician whereas chiropractic manuevers are not.

 

[seanjohn]

The difference is that OMT is done by a licensed physician whereas chiropractic manuevers are not.

But are the manipulation techniques the same and are they performed in the same manner? Do osteopaths also do cervical adjustments?

 

[box29]

Do osteopaths also do cervical adjustments?

Yes, and according to my OMM prof, we, as future physicians, do not do adjustments, we perform treatments...

Additionally, the term osteopath is not really in use here in the USA, it has been replaced with osteopathic physician. Osteopath may be used to refer to a non-physician who receives a Diploma of Osteopathy and solely practices manipulation...for example in Great Britain, France, Germany, Australia, etc.

 

[OSUdoc08]

I'm very curious to know, what's the difference between osteopathic manipulation and chiropractic manipulation? Is there a difference, or is it the same? Do osteopaths also do cervical manipulations?

The reason I ask is because I'm completely unfamiliar with osteopaths as we don't have any in Canada. From reading various threads on this site I can see that DO's in the US are equivalent to MD's in training, and are physicians, but do you do the same adjustments as chiropractors?

Can someone highlight the differences for me?

They are very similar. However, osteopathic physicians have more medical training, and make actual medical diagnoses to treat specific conditions. Osteopathic physicians use these treatments in conjunction with traditional medicine such as pharmacotherapy and surgery.

 

[OSUdoc08]

so essentially you're saying there is no difference, right?

I'm not sure exactly why you think it's a loaded question. In Canada we don't have osteopaths, they're not legally recognized here. Therefore, I've never been to an osteopath, I don't really know much about the profession, and I've never really heard about osteopathy until I visited this site. I'm just curious to know the difference between osteopathic manipulation, and chiropractic manipulation. Judging by the first 2 responses I received, I guess I won't find my answer here.

The difference is that DO's are considered the equivalent as MD's. They simply have the additional training in manipulation which can resemble treatments that both chiropractors and physical therapists uses.

DC's are not recognized as physicians.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Do osteopaths also do those dangerous neck manipulations that can rupture the vertebral artery causing a blood clot to form that moves cephalad towards the brain causing a stroke?

No, osteopaths do not do dangerous neck manipulations that can rupture the vertebral artery.

Yes, osteopaths do neck manipulations.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

The risk of an HVLA technique causing this so called rupture of the VA is minimal.

In fact, according to a well known osteopath at my school, taking an aspirin is of greater risk then cervical manipulation.

 

[seanjohn]

alright, so to sum up the differences....

Osteopathic physicians have all the training that medical doctors have, but in addition, they also use manipulation that is similar to that of a chiropractor.

So the next logical question is... why do chiropractors (who are not physicians) exist in the US, if fully trained physicians such as ostepaths perform spinal manipulation? It would make sense in Canada for chiropractors to exist, because we don't have physicians who perform manipulation, but I cannot see why they would exist in the US.

 

[beastmaster]

Because in a market economy, many groups are allowed to provide the same service for the benefit of consumers' choice. Chiro popularity is the backbone of their existance.

 

[Buckeye(OH)]

Because in a market economy, many groups are allowed to provide the same service for the benefit of consumers' choice. Chiro popularity is the backbone of their existance.

Very nice answer.

 

[DeLaughterDO]

I'm very curious to know, what's the difference between osteopathic manipulation and chiropractic manipulation? Is there a difference, or is it the same? Do osteopaths also do cervical manipulations?

The reason I ask is because I'm completely unfamiliar with osteopaths as we don't have any in Canada. From reading various threads on this site I can see that DO's in the US are equivalent to MD's in training, and are physicians, but do you do the same adjustments as chiropractors?

Can someone highlight the differences for me?

Ummm depending on where you live in canada, you do have DOs...

 

[seanjohn]

Ummm depending on where you live in canada, you do have DOs...

Well we definately do not have DO's in Ontario, and if we do they're not legally recognized as doctors. I've never heard of a DO until I joined this site. The only doctors we have in Ontario, and I'm pretty sure all of Canada are MD's.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Well we definately do not have DO's in Ontario, and if we do they're not legally recognized as doctors. I've never heard of a DO until I joined this site. The only doctors we have in Ontario, and I'm pretty sure all of Canada are MD's.

Incorrect.

The following is a list of practice rights for DO's in Canada:

Canada

Listed below are the licensure requirements for US-trained D.O.s in the provinces and territories of Canada. All the provinces that have provisions for licensing D.O.s as physicians require that D.O.s be graduates of AOA-accredited osteopathic medical colleges and they be or intend to become Canadian citizens. For the provinces or territories that state, ?no provisions exist for licensing US-trained D.O.s,? it is suggested the individual contact that regulatory authority. While there may not be a provision, the regulatory agency may consider amending its current policy to include recognition of US-trained D.O.s.

Alberta

Scope of Practice: unlimited
Requirements: Must have completed at least 2 years of GME accredited by the ACGME or AOA and must have passed the Universities Coordinating Council Exam, a basic sciences exam, and have passed all three parts of the licensing examination of the Medical Council of Canada (LMCC).

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of Alberta
900 Manulife Place
10180-101 Street
Edmonton Alberta T5J 4P8
CANADA
(780) 423-4764
http://www.cpsa.ab.ca

British Columbia

Scope of Practice: one licensure pathway provides D.O.s with unlimited practice rights, and another pathway limits D.O.s to practice OMM
Requirements: To be eligible for unlimited licenses: must have completed at least one year of GME approved by the AOA or the ACGME, completed at least 1 year of GME in Canada, passed all three parts of the LMCC. For licenses limited to OMM: must have completed at least 2 years of AOA approved GME and passed all three parts of the NBOME or COMLEX.

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of British Columbia
1807 W. 10th Avenue
Vancouver British Columbia V6J 2A9
CANADA
(604) 733-7758
http://cpsbc.bc.ca

Manitoba

Scope of Practice: unlimited
Requirements: In 2002, the College voted to register U.S.-educated and trained DOs.

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of Manitoba
1000-1661 Portage Avenue
Winnipeg Manitoba R3J 3T7
CANADA
(204) 774-4344
http://www.cpsm.mb.ca

New Brunswick

Scope of Practice: unlimited
Requirements: Must have completed at least 2 years of GME approved by the AOA or the ACGME and have passed all three parts of the LMCC. There is also a reciprocity pathway for D.O.s holding a license to practice medicine in Maine.

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of New Brunswick
1 Hampton Road, Suite 200
Rothesay, New Brunswick E2E 5K8
CANADA
(506) 849-5050
http://cpsnb.org

Newfoundland

Scope of Practice to be determined
Requirements: in 2002, the College committed itself to seeing that the government establishes a registration pathway for U.S.-educated D.O.s. It is anticipated that establishing guidelines may take a couple of years.

Contact: Newfoundland Medical Board
139 Water Street, Suite 603
St. John?s Newfoundland A1C 1B2
CANADA
(709) 726-8546

Northwest Territories

Scope of Practice: unlimited
Requirements: While no specific provisions are in place, the AOA has been told the government will grant
registration to any physician that qualifies for licensure in any other province.

Contact: Government of the Northwest Territories
Centre Square Tower 8th Floor
Yellowknife NWT X1A 2L9
CANADA
(867) 920-8058

Nova Scotia

Scope of Practice: unlimited
A new regulation was put into effect in 2002 to recognize U.S.-educated osteopathic physicians.

Contact: Provincial Medical Board of Nova Scotia
Sentry Place
1559 Brunswick Street, Suite 200
Halifax Nova Scotia B3J 2G1
CANADA
(902) 422-5823
http://www.cpsns.ns.ca

Ontario

Scope of Practice: Unlimited
In 2002, the Premier of Ontario and the College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario (CPSO) announced that changes were being implemented to recognize international medical graduates, including D.O.s who are now recognizing by the CPSO. In addition, the CPSO has created a Fast Track Assessment Program for international medical graduates who wish to practice in Ontario. The Fast Track Assessment is an expedited process designed for doctors with experience. It focuses on an evaluation of practice skills and can be tailored to the individual applicant. By evaluating the practice skills of the individual doctor rather than looking at the grades and training programs, the College acquires a more realistic view of the abilities of the individual physicians. For more recent graduates, there is the Standard Assessment process. It concentrates on examination grades and completion of an approved course of education and residency. All candidates are assessed in the same way. For more information on Ontario?s registration, go to
http://www.cpso.on.ca/info_physicia...ants/regist.htm.

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of Ontario
80 College Street
Toronto Ontario M5G 2E2
CANADA
(416) 967-2600
http://www.cpso.on.ca

Prince Edward Island
Scope of Practice: no provisions exist for licensing US-trained D.O.s

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of Prince Edward Island
199 Grafton Street
Charlottetown, PEI C1A 1L2
CANADA
(902) 566-3861

Quebec

Scope of Practice: unlimited
Requirements: Must have completed at least 1 year of GME approved by the AOA or the ACGME, must have completed at least 1 year of GME in Quebec, passed the written, oral and clinical board examination of the College of Family Physicians of Canada and must speak French fluently.

Contact: College des Medecins du Quebec
2170 Rene-Levesque Blvd West
Montreal Quebec H3H 2T8
CANADA
(514) 933-4441
http://www.cmq.org

Saskatchewan

Scope of Practice: limited to OMM
Requirements: Must have completed at least 1 year of AOA-approved GME.

Contact: College of Physicians and Surgeons of Saskatchewan
211 Fourth Avenue South
Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7K 1N1
CANADA
(306) 244-7355
http://www.quadrant.net/cpss

Yukon Territory

Scope of Practice: unlimited
Requirements: While no specific provisions are in place, the AOA has been told the government will grant
registration to any physician that qualifies for licensure in any other province.

Contact: Government of the Yukon
PO Box 2703
Whitehorse, Yukon Y1A 2C
CANADA
(867) 667-5257

 

[OMMFellow06]

I can not believe that of all the comments made, people are saying that we do the same manipulation as Chiropractors. We DO NOT do the same manipulation. We have many MORE techniques that do not require "cracking" the spine. As chiropractors work mainly on the spine, Osteopathic PHYSICIANS work on the spine as well as all other parts of the body including, muscles, fascia, ligaments, etc. that are attached to the spine and to EXTREMITIES.

Our thought process as to why we work on the structures that we do is different. As Chiropractors think mostly about working on the MSK system, we as Physicians have a more medical thought process to the reason for our treatments.

 

[seanjohn]

I can not believe that of all the comments made, people are saying that we do the same manipulation as Chiropractors. We DO NOT do the same manipulation. We have many MORE techniques that do not require "cracking" the spine. As chiropractors work mainly on the spine, Osteopathic PHYSICIANS work on the spine as well as all other parts of the body including, muscles, fascia, ligaments, etc. that are attached to the spine and to EXTREMITIES.

Our thought process as to why we work on the structures that we do is different. As Chiropractors think mostly about working on the MSK system, we as Physicians have a more medical thought process to the reason for our treatments.

Thank you OMMFellow, that was the best response so far, and really the only one that answered my question. 👍

 

[Raven Feather]

alright, so to sum up the differences....

Osteopathic physicians have all the training that medical doctors have, but in addition, they also use manipulation that is similar to that of a chiropractor.

So the next logical question is... why do chiropractors (who are not physicians) exist in the US, if fully trained physicians such as ostepaths perform spinal manipulation? It would make sense in Canada for chiropractors to exist, because we don't have physicians who perform manipulation, but I cannot see why they would exist in the US.

osteopathic physicians are medical doctors just as allopathic physicians are in the US. Just thought I'd point that out but really can't help you out that much for your original question as I am unfamiliar with chiropracty and have not entered med school yet--looks like it was already answered anyway.

 

[mysophobe]

The difference is that I feel safe going to a DO.

 

[JohnnyOU]

The difference is that I feel safe going to a DO.

LOL

Weird but that is actually true much of the time.

I have an 8 yr old son and another that is almost 2.
The oldest was delivered with a DO doing all the prenatal care and the delivery. Went perfect.

My youngest was delivered with an MD doing everything and the idiot broke my sons clavicle bone...during an emergency c-section that was the result the MD inducing labor with drugs and not checking the babies orientation or anything else first (coming out backwards.etc..) Also ended up requiring 12 months physical therapy. I see why OBGYNs get sued so much. I HATE friv. lawsuits...but some of those idiots should be sued or lose their license if they're gonna do a half-*ss job handling people's lives.

My wife even commented that the DOs have always given her the top of the line care and attention. I'll never go to an MD if I can help it, unless I know him/her personally and know they're trustworthy.

 

[OMMFellow06]

Thank you OMMFellow, that was the best response so far, and really the only one that answered my question. 👍

You're Welcome!

 

[mysophobe]

LOL

Weird but that is actually true much of the time.

I have an 8 yr old son and another that is almost 2.
The oldest was delivered with a DO doing all the prenatal care and the delivery. Went perfect.

My youngest was delivered with an MD doing everything and the idiot broke my sons clavicle bone...during an emergency c-section that was the result the MD inducing labor with drugs and not checking the babies orientation or anything else first (coming out backwards.etc..) Also ended up requiring 12 months physical therapy. I see why OBGYNs get sued so much. I HATE friv. lawsuits...but some of those idiots should be sued or lose their license if they're gonna do a half-*ss job handling people's lives.

My wife even commented that the DOs have always given her the top of the line care and attention. I'll never go to an MD if I can help it, unless I know him/her personally and know they're trustworthy.

Not to start MD bashing, but I have found that true as well. I know a few MDs that I would trust with my life, but for the most part, they're very distant and seem to be very unconcerned with their patients' health. I always hear them at the front desk of the OR complaining about how long its taking everyone to get the room ready and get the patient back (in reality, it's like 6-8 minutes 🙄 ).

Oh well, what can you do?

 

[BMW19]

I am always astounded by how quickly a DO is to bash a Chiro, considering all of the bashing the DO's have had to go through. As a former chiro who is now in DO school I think I can give the best opinion yet.

As a chiro you have the tools to make somewhat of a diagnosis, possibly catch something on an x-ray or exam, and treat musculoskeletal complaints. In essence the only tool in your toolbox is manipulation. When a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Hence everything is treated with maniupulation. That is what I got tired of.

As a DO, the hammer is one tool of many in the toolbox and you act as a physician first, and use OMM to aid in your treatment. Don't try and act like OMM is COMPLETELY different than a chiro adjustment. I have been thru both curriculums now and the techniques are very similar. Isn't it funny how when a chiro does a neck adjsutment it can cause a VA dissection but an osteopathic manipulation could never do that!! LOL

Anyway, I don't want to go on ranting but I get tired of the chiro bashing especially on an OSTEOPATHIC forum who should know what it is to be constantly scrutinized. I know many chiros who have diagnosed serious problems on x-ray and during exam. They do have value!!

BMW-


QUOTE=mysophobe]The difference is that I feel safe going to a DO.[/QUOTE]

 

[Taus]

As a chiro you have the tools to make somewhat of a diagnosis, possibly catch something on an x-ray or exam, and treat musculoskeletal complaints. In essence the only tool in your toolbox is manipulation. When a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Hence everything is treated with maniupulation. That is what I got tired of.

As a DO, the hammer is one tool of many in the toolbox and you act as a physician first, and use OMM to aid in your treatment.

that is an excellent description

 

[Flobber]

I am always astounded by how quickly a DO is to bash a Chiro, considering all of the bashing the DO's have had to go through. As a former chiro who is now in DO school I think I can give the best opinion yet.

As a chiro you have the tools to make somewhat of a diagnosis, possibly catch something on an x-ray or exam, and treat musculoskeletal complaints. In essence the only tool in your toolbox is manipulation. When a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Hence everything is treated with maniupulation. That is what I got tired of.

As a DO, the hammer is one tool of many in the toolbox and you act as a physician first, and use OMM to aid in your treatment. Don't try and act like OMM is COMPLETELY different than a chiro adjustment. I have been thru both curriculums now and the techniques are very similar. Isn't it funny how when a chiro does a neck adjsutment it can cause a VA dissection but an osteopathic manipulation could never do that!! LOL

Anyway, I don't want to go on ranting but I get tired of the chiro bashing especially on an OSTEOPATHIC forum who should know what it is to be constantly scrutinized. I know many chiros who have diagnosed serious problems on x-ray and during exam. They do have value!!

BMW-


QUOTE=mysophobe]The difference is that I feel safe going to a DO.

[/QUOTE]

Agreed.. you guys should focus your efforts on snidely dismissing the care that MD's provide. That way you can all feel better about yourselves.

 

[beastmaster]

Agreed.. you guys should focus your efforts on snidely dismissing the care that MD's provide. That way you can all feel better about yourselves.

From what sewer did you crawl out of?

 

[group_theory]

Another difference is the reasoning behind doing manipulation (even if the techniques are similar/same)

The most similar techniques (HVLA) - for DOs, it is to fix a hypomobile joint (return the joint from a pathological barrier to a physiological barrier). For DCs, the reason (as taught in school at least) is to remove a chiropractic subluxation (take any arguments about subluxation over to the appropriate forums please, just not here)

But there are other techniques DO uses (that DCs may or may not use). Muscle energy, myofascial release, BLT, FPR, Counterstrain, Craniosacral (leave arguments about Craniosacral out of this thread please). OMT also focuses on lymphatics and sympathetic/parasympathetic responses.

In a hospital setting, rib raising is one of the most commonly used OMT with relatively few contraindications.

In an outpatient setting, you can use the galbreath technique on acute otitis media (as reported in NEJM) in addition to the standard amoxicillin (again, leave arguments about use of abx in tx of AOM to the appropriate forum). Someone with a viral URI may benefit from lymphantic techniques and trigeminal stimulation.

These are OMT that a chiro may not necessarily use (or at least get taught while in school)

 

[Raven Feather]

I am always astounded by how quickly a DO is to bash a Chiro, considering all of the bashing the DO's have had to go through. As a former chiro who is now in DO school I think I can give the best opinion yet.

As a chiro you have the tools to make somewhat of a diagnosis, possibly catch something on an x-ray or exam, and treat musculoskeletal complaints. In essence the only tool in your toolbox is manipulation. When a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Hence everything is treated with maniupulation. That is what I got tired of.

As a DO, the hammer is one tool of many in the toolbox and you act as a physician first, and use OMM to aid in your treatment. Don't try and act like OMM is COMPLETELY different than a chiro adjustment. I have been thru both curriculums now and the techniques are very similar. Isn't it funny how when a chiro does a neck adjsutment it can cause a VA dissection but an osteopathic manipulation could never do that!! LOL
Anyway, I don't want to go on ranting but I get tired of the chiro bashing especially on an OSTEOPATHIC forum who should know what it is to be constantly scrutinized. I know many chiros who have diagnosed serious problems on x-ray and during exam. They do have value!!

BMW-


QUOTE=mysophobe]The difference is that I feel safe going to a DO.

[/QUOTE]

Good point. And by the same logic, a possible risk of VA dissection is mentioned/questioned concerning a noninvasive treatment in this the original post while ALL physicians be it DO or MD perform invasive procedures with much higher incidence of complications especially concerning endoscopies, surgeries etc.---perforation, hemorrhage, atelectasis, fat emboli, other types of clots.....

 

[beastmaster]

These are OMT that a chiro may not necessarily use (or at least get taught while in school)

So DO students are taught more in several hours of weekly lab than chiros in full time study ??

 

[fever5]

Not to start MD bashing, but I have found that true as well. I know a few MDs that I would trust with my life, but for the most part, they're very distant and seem to be very unconcerned with their patients' health. I always hear them at the front desk of the OR complaining about how long its taking everyone to get the room ready and get the patient back (in reality, it's like 6-8 minutes 🙄 ).

Oh well, what can you do?

As an MD student, I am not going to start the old DO vs MD rant. It would be silly as both schools achieve the same common goal. But I take issue with MDs being maligned as ‘distant’ and incompetent doctors based on a few subjective experiences. So let’s be fair. Can I really say that since I’ve noticed a lot of DO students have lower MCAT scores than MD students that somehow the majority DO students have lower scores? No, absolutely not, as I have not seen at lot of DO scores to know. Are some MDs poorly trained? Absolutely. Are there situations in delivery that vary from one birth to the next? Of course!
Let’s be a little more cautious before we make broad based statements. After all, I doubt many of the DOs out there would appreciate someone questioning their clinical acumen and strength of character based simply on the degree they hold.

 

[mtDNA]

I am always astounded by how quickly a DO is to bash a Chiro, considering all of the bashing the DO's have had to go through. As a former chiro who is now in DO school I think I can give the best opinion yet.

As a chiro you have the tools to make somewhat of a diagnosis, possibly catch something on an x-ray or exam, and treat musculoskeletal complaints. In essence the only tool in your toolbox is manipulation. When a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Hence everything is treated with maniupulation. That is what I got tired of.

As a DO, the hammer is one tool of many in the toolbox and you act as a physician first, and use OMM to aid in your treatment. Don't try and act like OMM is COMPLETELY different than a chiro adjustment. I have been thru both curriculums now and the techniques are very similar. Isn't it funny how when a chiro does a neck adjsutment it can cause a VA dissection but an osteopathic manipulation could never do that!! LOL

Anyway, I don't want to go on ranting but I get tired of the chiro bashing especially on an OSTEOPATHIC forum who should know what it is to be constantly scrutinized. I know many chiros who have diagnosed serious problems on x-ray and during exam. They do have value!!

BMW-


QUOTE=mysophobe]The difference is that I feel safe going to a DO.

[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I agree with a lot of this. I am going to DO school in the fall, and my dad is a chiropractor. He has never had a VA dissection, nor has he heard of one happening to any of his colleagues. It is an extremely rare occurence that people who are against chiropractic enjoy pointing out. But there are all kinds of medical procedures that have a small chance of causing terrible side effects, so I don't understand why people make a huge deal about this. I definitely think there are plenty of quack DCs and DOs out there, but there are many more who are great physicians. My dad only uses chiropractic to treat back pain, which is what it is scientifically proven to help with. It is not fair to invalidate a chiropractor who practices like that. Also, my dad has caught aortic aneurysms on his Xrays (they had some calcification). He sent these patients to the ER, and they were brought in for emergency surgery immediately. Also, I know that chiropractors ARE considered physicians. They are just a different kind of physician, with a more limited scope of practice. I think it is important for us to be objective, and recognise these things for what they are. A DC who uses chiropractic to treat aids or something like that is definitely a quack, but we need to remember that there are many chiropractic physicians who are practicing in a scientifically valid manner and helping a lot of people.

 

[Krazykritter]

Don't mean to start a war here, but chiropracters are NOT physicians. How can someone who can't prescribe medication and has only one tool (manipulation) be a physician?

 

[fever5]

Actually chiropractors ARE physicians, defined legally. All physicians do not have the same scope of practice. Just like a GP (MD/DO) doesn't practice neurology, a chiropractor may not practice most fields of MD/DO medicine, but rather they focus on a more specialized area.

I don't know why this post has deteriorated into a hierarchical rant of what qualifies as a physician and what does not.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Actually chiropractors ARE physicians, defined legally. All physicians do not have the same scope of practice. Just like a GP (MD/DO) doesn't practice neurology, a chiropractor may not practice most fields of MD/DO medicine, but rather they focus on a more specialized area.

I don't know why this post has deteriorated into a hierarchical rant of what qualifies as a physician and what does not.

A "GP" may not practice neurology, but they can complete a residency and then practice neurology.

A GP can perform surgery, deliver babies, and do many other procedures. They have a full scope of practice.

Sorry to break it to you, but chiropractors can never deliver a baby or perform surgery.

Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

 

[OSUdoc08]

So DO students are taught more in several hours of weekly lab than chiros in full time study ??

Some DO schools spend more time than others, and many schools require months of OMM rotations during the clinical years. In addition, those that with to enter OMM practice will complete a residency in this area.

The short answer is yes, DO students are taught more than Chiros. Chiropractors don't use many of the physical therapy techniques that DOs use.

 

[Mempho1983]

Since we are all looking to be physicians, whether DO or MD, it might be good to know what a physician is.

According to Webster's, a physician is 1) a person licensed to practice medicine 2) any medical doctor other than one specializing in surgery 3) any person or thing (?) that heals, relieves, or comforts.

So, in light of this definition (at least #3), since a chiropractor can at a minimum provide relief or comfort to someone, he or she can be called a physician. However, I do not think most people consider DC's physicians since they are not licensed to practice medicine, deliver babies, etc.

 

[laboholic]

Not to start MD bashing, but I have found that true as well. I know a few MDs that I would trust with my life, but for the most part, they're very distant and seem to be very unconcerned with their patients' health. I always hear them at the front desk of the OR complaining about how long its taking everyone to get the room ready and get the patient back (in reality, it's like 6-8 minutes 🙄 ).

Oh well, what can you do?

I know this is just your opinion and you arent meaning to bash, but I cant believe that DO students or pre-DOs are still making this kind of generalization. I mean seriously, there are a TON of excellent physicians out there that really care about their patients and are MDs. They may not have the same hands-on training as the DOs - thus It is possible that (from the patients perspective) they may seem a bit more "distant". But to say that you wouldn’t trust your life to a majority of the MDs is going a little too far. After all, they are our colleagues (or future collegues) and I would hate to hear them saying these kinds of things about us. So be kind and try to think outside of your own isolated experience.

alright, so to sum up the differences....

Osteopathic physicians have all the training that medical doctors have, but in addition, they also use manipulation that is similar to that of a chiropractor.

So the next logical question is... why do chiropractors (who are not physicians) exist in the US, if fully trained physicians such as ostepaths perform spinal manipulation? It would make sense in Canada for chiropractors to exist, because we don't have physicians who perform manipulation, but I cannot see why they would exist in the US.

I think one of the reasons is that a vast majority of American DOs do not actually use OMM in their practices. Only about 5% do. Therefore, if you want to get an adjustment, its much more convenient to go to a D.C.

 

[BMW19]

{ + (4) 'Chiropractic proctology' means the diagnosis and
treatment of disease of the colon and ano-rectum using dietary,
nutritional, electrical, electro-surgical, minor surgical, physio
and manipulative therapies. 'Chiropractic proctology' includes
the diagnosis of malignancies of the colon, ano-rectum and
surrounding peri-anal tissues but does not include the treatment
of these malignancies.
(5) 'Chiropractic obstetrics' means the management of
pregnancy, labor, delivery and the puerperium. 'Chiropractic
obstetrics' is limited to the practice of natural childbirth and
those procedures that the board considers necessary to manage
unanticipated emergencies that threaten the welfare of the mother

OSUdoc,

Usually I agree with your posts, but sometimes you jump the gun without doing your research which is a "no no" in medicine (DO or MD). Chiropractors can do minor surgery and deliver babies in some states when it is necessary. Take a look at Oregon's state chiropractic law. I have pasted part of it here for your viewing pleasure. I guess that makes chiro's physicians in Oregon!! Not trying to start a war, as obviously I came to DO school being a chiropractor but you all need to stop making blanket statements without doing RESEARCH. That is what separates the chiropractic profession unfortunately they never have research to back up their claims.

BMW-

A "GP" may not practice neurology, but they can complete a residency and then practice neurology.

A GP can perform surgery, deliver babies, and do many other procedures. They have a full scope of practice.

Sorry to break it to you, but chiropractors can never deliver a baby or perform surgery.

Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

 

[fever5]

A "GP" may not practice neurology, but they can complete a residency and then practice neurology.

A GP can perform surgery, deliver babies, and do many other procedures. They have a full scope of practice.

Sorry to break it to you, but chiropractors can never deliver a baby or perform surgery.

Check it out: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Physician

Sorry to break it to me? Whoa look at you!!! Touchy touchy (is this anti-MD hostility I am feeling)?

As I said before, legally, a chiropractor is many areas of the US is defined as a doctor. Don't believe me check out this site that a quick search turned up: http://blackmanlegal.com/CM/CarAccidents/CarAccidents32.asp

"A "GP" may not practice neurology, but they can complete a residency and then practice neurology."
But then the GP would become a neurologist. I have yet to encounter a neurologist who primarily runs a family practice. A chiropractor could enter medical school and do everything a 'doctor' (as it were) could do!

Finally, the best part of your argument:
but chiropractors can never deliver a baby or perform surgery.

Anyone who can cut an umbilical cord and catch a baby can deliever (uncomplicated of course)! If it were a difficult delievery an OBS/GYN would be doing it. Besides many non-OBS/GYN docs aren't legally licensed to deliver anyway.

Surgery? Seriously what surgey does a non-surgeon really do? Stiches? Nevi removal? Hold retractors while a trained surgeon operates?

The point? Different professions are trained to do different things. Saying who is and who isn't a doctor is really arbitrary. A few decades ago many would say that DOs don't qualify as "doctors" either. So before you step on other professions think of the roots of your own profession, if nothing else.

 

[BMW19]

Exactly my point.....

Sorry to break it to me? Whoa look at you!!! Touchy touchy (is this anti-MD hostility I am feeling)?

As I said before, legally, a chiropractor is many areas of the US is defined as a doctor. Don't believe me check out this site that a quick search turned up: http://blackmanlegal.com/CM/CarAccidents/CarAccidents32.asp

"A "GP" may not practice neurology, but they can complete a residency and then practice neurology."
But then the GP would become a neurologist. I have yet to encounter a neurologist who primarily runs a family practice. A chiropractor could enter medical school and do everything a 'doctor' (as it were) could do!

Finally, the best part of your argument:
but chiropractors can never deliver a baby or perform surgery.

Anyone who can cut an umbilical cord and catch a baby can deliever (uncomplicated of course)! If it were a difficult delievery an OBS/GYN would be doing it. Besides many non-OBS/GYN docs aren't legally licensed to deliver anyway.

Surgery? Seriously what surgey does a non-surgeon really do? Stiches? Nevi removal? Hold retractors while a trained surgeon operates?

The point? Different professions are trained to do different things. Saying who is and who isn't a doctor is really arbitrary. A few decades ago many would say that DOs don't qualify as "doctors" either. So before you step on other professions think of the roots of your own profession, if nothing else.

 

[OSUdoc08]

{ + (4) 'Chiropractic proctology' means the diagnosis and
treatment of disease of the colon and ano-rectum using dietary,
nutritional, electrical, electro-surgical, minor surgical, physio
and manipulative therapies. 'Chiropractic proctology' includes
the diagnosis of malignancies of the colon, ano-rectum and
surrounding peri-anal tissues but does not include the treatment
of these malignancies.
(5) 'Chiropractic obstetrics' means the management of
pregnancy, labor, delivery and the puerperium. 'Chiropractic
obstetrics' is limited to the practice of natural childbirth and
those procedures that the board considers necessary to manage
unanticipated emergencies that threaten the welfare of the mother

OSUdoc,

Usually I agree with your posts, but sometimes you jump the gun without doing your research which is a "no no" in medicine (DO or MD). Chiropractors can do minor surgery and deliver babies in some states when it is necessary. Take a look at Oregon's state chiropractic law. I have pasted part of it here for your viewing pleasure. I guess that makes chiro's physicians in Oregon!! Not trying to start a war, as obviously I came to DO school being a chiropractor but you all need to stop making blanket statements without doing RESEARCH. That is what separates the chiropractic profession unfortunately they never have research to back up their claims.

BMW-

You're argument is essentially flawed. You state that chiropractors can do MINOR surgery and deliver babies WHEN NECESSARY.

A police officer can deliver a baby when necessary. A chiropractor can never go through a residency program and be trained to make complicated deliveries and/or deliver babies for a living. In addition, this is only minor surgery, and they will never be qualified to do major surgery.

The ability of an MD or DO to do additional training in any of the areas, and the lack of ability for DCs to do this is what differentiates the two.

MDs & DOs can perform major sugery & complicated deliveries with the proper training.

DCs can never be licensed to do this. Sorry.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Sorry to break it to me? Whoa look at you!!! Touchy touchy (is this anti-MD hostility I am feeling)?

As I said before, legally, a chiropractor is many areas of the US is defined as a doctor. Don't believe me check out this site that a quick search turned up: http://blackmanlegal.com/CM/CarAccidents/CarAccidents32.asp

"A "GP" may not practice neurology, but they can complete a residency and then practice neurology."
But then the GP would become a neurologist. I have yet to encounter a neurologist who primarily runs a family practice. A chiropractor could enter medical school and do everything a 'doctor' (as it were) could do!

Finally, the best part of your argument:
but chiropractors can never deliver a baby or perform surgery.

Anyone who can cut an umbilical cord and catch a baby can deliever (uncomplicated of course)! If it were a difficult delievery an OBS/GYN would be doing it. Besides many non-OBS/GYN docs aren't legally licensed to deliver anyway.

Surgery? Seriously what surgey does a non-surgeon really do? Stiches? Nevi removal? Hold retractors while a trained surgeon operates?

The point? Different professions are trained to do different things. Saying who is and who isn't a doctor is really arbitrary. A few decades ago many would say that DOs don't qualify as "doctors" either. So before you step on other professions think of the roots of your own profession, if nothing else.

You said right, exactly in support of my statements. In order for a DC to do these things, he first has to enter medical school (DO or MD) and become a PHYSICIAN.

A DO or MD only needs to train in a residency or a fellowship, since they are already a physician.

 

[BMW19]

You are missing the whole point as usual. The fact that they can do minor surgery and deliver babies makes them PHYSICIANS ACCORDING TO OREGEON LAW!!! I did not label them physicians, Oregon did. As well as several other states (Florida I believe as well). I never said that they were equal to MD/DO that was not my argument. Only that some states consider them physicians which you still will not conced to despite evidence. We call that ignorance/arrogance.

BMW-


QUOTE=OSUdoc08]You're argument is essentially flawed. You state that chiropractors can do MINOR surgery and deliver babies WHEN NECESSARY.

A police officer can deliver a baby when necessary. A chiropractor can never go through a residency program and be trained to make complicated deliveries and/or deliver babies for a living. In addition, this is only minor surgery, and they will never be qualified to do major surgery.

The ability of an MD or DO to do additional training in any of the areas, and the lack of ability for DCs to do this is what differentiates the two.

MDs & DOs can perform major sugery & complicated deliveries with the proper training.

DCs can never be licensed to do this. Sorry.[/QUOTE]

 

[macman]

I can not believe that of all the comments made, people are saying that we do the same manipulation as Chiropractors. We DO NOT do the same manipulation. We have many MORE techniques that do not require "cracking" the spine. As chiropractors work mainly on the spine, Osteopathic PHYSICIANS work on the spine as well as all other parts of the body including, muscles, fascia, ligaments, etc. that are attached to the spine and to EXTREMITIES.

Our thought process as to why we work on the structures that we do is different. As Chiropractors think mostly about working on the MSK system, we as Physicians have a more medical thought process to the reason for our treatments.

I agree. OMT and Chiro can be very different. The core philosophy is different and I think the OP asks a great question. I notice BMW19 asks chiros not be bashed and that is a request to be honored, although reading the above I do not see a 'bash'.

There is much diversity in both professions. The con's of each are that most DO's rarely use OMT and are average DO is probably worse with their hands than a chiro. That is probably b/c as a profession we fail to emphasize OMT and do a poor job integrating it into years 3/4 and GME (with some exceptions). Chiros' skeleton on their closet (pun intended ) is low admission standards and several diploma mill schools (we might be headed there ourselves soon?). That being said, I have met fantastic manual providers in each realm.

To descend from my soapbox 😱 and try to answer the OP: from my own observations if you were to go to a chiro you would probably get a mostly HVLA (thrust tech) adjustment/treatment. If you went to a OMT guru, you could get a very gentle treatment that would probably focus more on soft tissues. My best friend and most respected collegue is a chiro in CA. He is much better at thrust tech than I am. On the other hand, if someone presents with LBP he is more likely to after the L-spine, and has a inferior understanding of sacral/pelvis mechanics and the various dysfunctions of same. He does work on extremities, and do some non-thrust tech.

seanjohn-the tough thing about your question is that when spinal manip. is studied, the type of tech. or the provider is not always factored in. Dr. Greenman has a great article in the JAOA about this very problem. Please read it FYI

 

[OSUdoc08]

You are missing the whole point as usual. The fact that they can do minor surgery and deliver babies makes them PHYSICIANS ACCORDING TO OREGEON LAW!!! I did not label them physicians, Oregon did. As well as several other states (Florida I believe as well). I never said that they were equal to MD/DO that was not my argument. Only that some states consider them physicians which you still will not conced to despite evidence. We call that ignorance/arrogance.

BMW-


QUOTE=OSUdoc08]You're argument is essentially flawed. You state that chiropractors can do MINOR surgery and deliver babies WHEN NECESSARY.

A police officer can deliver a baby when necessary. A chiropractor can never go through a residency program and be trained to make complicated deliveries and/or deliver babies for a living. In addition, this is only minor surgery, and they will never be qualified to do major surgery.

The ability of an MD or DO to do additional training in any of the areas, and the lack of ability for DCs to do this is what differentiates the two.

MDs & DOs can perform major sugery & complicated deliveries with the proper training.

DCs can never be licensed to do this. Sorry.

Incorrect. I just referred to the law. In fact, here is the discussion of what these DC's are trained in:

http://www.wschiro.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=233&Itemid=71

The obstetrics that DC's are trained in is known as "Midwifery." DC's are trained to do what a nurse midwife is and nothing more.

This has nothing to do with being a physician. Call them a nurse if you would like.

 

[JamieMac]

I am always astounded by how quickly a DO is to bash a Chiro, considering all of the bashing the DO's have had to go through. As a former chiro who is now in DO school I think I can give the best opinion yet.

As a chiro you have the tools to make somewhat of a diagnosis, possibly catch something on an x-ray or exam, and treat musculoskeletal complaints. In essence the only tool in your toolbox is manipulation. When a hammer is the only tool in your toolbox, everything looks like a nail. Hence everything is treated with maniupulation. That is what I got tired of.

As a DO, the hammer is one tool of many in the toolbox and you act as a physician first, and use OMM to aid in your treatment. Don't try and act like OMM is COMPLETELY different than a chiro adjustment. I have been thru both curriculums now and the techniques are very similar. Isn't it funny how when a chiro does a neck adjsutment it can cause a VA dissection but an osteopathic manipulation could never do that!!

[/QUOTE]

Well said and good analogy.

 

[BMW19]

Minor surgical procedures (laceration repair, removal of lipoma, removal of sebaceous cysts

I suppose that midwives can do this as well. Again, your tactic of arguing is to always create a smokescreen to the actual issue. You stated that since chiropractors cannot deliver babies or do surgery. I corrected you by showing you that they can in some states (regardless of whether you want to call it midwivery or not). Therefore we can see that if ob+surgery= physician then in some states a chiropractor can be considered a physician ( a chiropractic physician). That DOES NOT make them an MD! It is simply semantics, but you are wrong in any case.

Chiropractors....."can never deliver a baby or perform surgery"- This was your statement

Macman- The bash was not the OP but another poster who said they would "feel safe going to a DO" implying that they do not feel safe going to a DC.

BMW-

Incorrect. I just referred to the law. In fact, here is the discussion of what these DC's are trained in:

http://www.wschiro.edu/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=233&Itemid=71

The obstetrics that DC's are trained in is known as "Midwifery." DC's are trained to do what a nurse midwife is and nothing more.

This has nothing to do with being a physician. Call them a nurse if you would like.

 

[mysophobe]

As an MD student, I am not going to start the old DO vs MD rant. It would be silly as both schools achieve the same common goal. But I take issue with MDs being maligned as ‘distant’ and incompetent doctors based on a few subjective experiences. So let’s be fair. Can I really say that since I’ve noticed a lot of DO students have lower MCAT scores than MD students that somehow the majority DO students have lower scores? No, absolutely not, as I have not seen at lot of DO scores to know. Are some MDs poorly trained? Absolutely. Are there situations in delivery that vary from one birth to the next? Of course!
Let’s be a little more cautious before we make broad based statements. After all, I doubt many of the DOs out there would appreciate someone questioning their clinical acumen and strength of character based simply on the degree they hold.

I agree with you. I meant only to speak for my own personal experiences, not the majority. I apologize if it came across incorrectly. I realize I didn't word it properly, but what I meant to say was there are a few surgeons that I would entrust my life to, and they are all MDs. There are poor DOs and poor MDs, and the other way around.