What's the point of saying "ORM"?

[Emulteapj]

Honestly, I'm curious. Why not just outright say, "Asian." I don't think any other minority is considered overrepresented.

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[deleted962973]

It doesn’t stand for minority, it stands for over represented in medicine.

 

[Goro]

Cubans, Filipinos and Colombianos, among others, are not Asian

 

[EdgeTrimmer]

Cubans, Filipinos and Colombianos, among others, are not Asian

Are they over represented in Medicine? Also, do you count nurses separately from physicians?

 

[993444]

Cubans, Filipinos and Colombianos, among others, are not Asian

What about Caucasians?

 

[SchwiftyMD]

ORM = white and asian

 

[Goro]

Are they over represented in Medicine? Also, do you count nurses separately from physicians?

Yes, and no

 

[Goro]

What about Caucasians?

That goes without saying.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

ORM = white and asian

In about 5 months itll be "Feeling (O)ppressed and (R)eally (M)ad"

 

[907914]

ORM = white and asian

East Asian, European, North African, Middle Eastern, Central and Northern South American, African and Hispanic Caribbean = ORM

 

[CidHighwind]

It doesn’t even mean white, it’s just something that Asian and Indian applicants say to “victimize” themselves.

 

[leihoma97]

It doesn’t even mean white, it’s just something that Asian and Indian applicants say to “victimize” themselves.

???

 

[ciestar]

???

Discrimination in the admissions process

 

[CidHighwind]

???

ORMs, or just Asians and Indians (mostly East Asian) feel like they’re “discriminated” against for some reason. Nevermind the fact most live in the most competitive state to gain medical school admittance (Cali). I’m still waiting on all these URMs (black and Hispanic) that are supposedly “taking their spots. In our class of ~140 students, there’s 7 AA students and 4 Hispanic students, 5 of which are legacies.

 

[deleted962973]

ORMs, or just Asians and Indians (mostly East Asian) feel like they’re “discriminated” against for some reason. Nevermind the fact most live in the most competitive state to gain medical school admittance (Cali). I’m still waiting on all these URMs (black and Hispanic) that are supposedly “taking their spots. In our class of ~140 students, there’s 7 AA students and 4 Hispanic students, 5 of which are legacies.

I feel like you’re trying to start a fight no one asked for

 

[CidHighwind]

I feel like you’re trying to start a fight no one asked for

Not really, just answering OP’s question.

 

[beattheprocess]

It doesn’t even mean white, it’s just something that Asian and Indian applicants say to “victimize” themselves.

Love the projection

 

[CidHighwind]

Love the projection

I’ve just read enough URM threads on SDN to know how they typically go.

 

[beattheprocess]

I’ve just read enough URM threads on SDN to know how they typically go.

Not what I meant

 

[leihoma97]

Not what I meant

lmao i remember learning this for MCAT. One of the coping mechanisms

 

[907914]

Nevermind the fact most live in the most competitive state to gain medical school admittance (Cali).

What did one California ORM say to the other? See you next cycle!

No but seriously, URMs are not taking the seats of ORMs. There is no oppression. There is no discrimination. A true meritocracy would only work if there was equal footing from the get-go. And there is not, thus life circumstances need to be taken in to consideration in admissions.

 

[beattheprocess]

What did one California ORM say to the other? See you next cycle!

No but seriously, URMs are not taking the seats of ORMs. There is no oppression. There is no discrimination. A true meritocracy would only work if there was equal footing from the get-go. And there is not, thus life circumstances need to be taken in to consideration in admissions.

What’s the point of working hard if success gets counted against you?

 

[CidHighwind]

Not what I meant

Is it projection though? Go read through one of the many URM threads from years ago, in them, “ORMs” feel like it’s unfair the advantages that URMs get. Don’t know why you’re trying to say otherwise.

BTW, how am I projecting? Do you think I’m an ORM that feels like the world is against me, hence thinking others feel the same way?

 

[907914]

if success gets counted against you?

Success is absolutely NOT counted against you? I am pretty darn sure a 520 ORM has a higher chance of admission than a 515 ORM. Is that 'success being held against you'?

 

[Dr panda]

This whole thing about URM and ORM looks extremely weird for me. In my home country we have many underserved areas where no one wants to live (mostly rural, far north or far south) and all medical schools have special quota for this purposes but instead of asking for ethnicity, they make you sign a contract where you agree that you will work in those areas for at least n years after graduation (usually 10), they lower admission standard for those people. I wonder why not to do this here, why not to create special programs for people who are ready to work with underserved population/rural areas. It would be logical if someone is fluent in Spanish and is willing to work with hispanic population and has tons of service hours with them, then why not to give that person preference instead of simply asking for ethnicity? (just my couple cents)

 

[CidHighwind]

This whole thing about URM and ORM looks extremely weird for me. In my home country we have many underserved areas where no one wants to live (mostly rural, far north or far south) and all medical schools have special quota for this purposes but instead of asking ethnicity they make you sign a contract where you promise that you will work in those areas at least for n years after graduation (usually 10), they low admission standard for those people. I wonder why not to do this here, why not to create special programs for people who are ready to work with underserved population/rural areas. It would be logical if someone is fluent in Spanish and is willing to work with hispanic population and has tons of service hours with them they why not to give that person preference instead of simply asking for ethnicity? (just my couple cents)

They already do this. There’s primary care tracks that place people in these rural areas.

 

[907914]

This whole thing about URM and ORM looks extremely weird for me. In my home country we have many underserved areas where no one wants to live (mostly rural, far north or far south) and all medical schools have special quota for this purposes but instead of asking ethnicity they make you sign a contract where you agree that you will work in those areas for at least n years after graduation (usually 10), they low admission standard for those people. I wonder why not to do this here, why not to create special programs for people who are ready to work with underserved population/rural areas. It would be logical if someone is fluent in Spanish and is willing to work with hispanic population and has tons of service hours with them they why not to give that person preference instead of simply asking for ethnicity? (just my couple cents)

Because in the US those underserved things are typically correlated with race/ethnicity due to centuries of forced segregation. To tell a group "We will lower your admissions standards and make you work in those neighborhoods" is a no-go in the US because it plays negatively in to 2 things: 1) the forced segregation history that the US has and 2) this pervasive and uniquely American stupid idea that everyone can make it if they just try hard enough.

 

[beattheprocess]

Is it projection though? Go read through one of the many URM threads from years ago, in them, “ORMs” feel like it’s unfair the advantages that URMs get. Don’t know why you’re trying to say otherwise.

BTW, how am I projecting? Do you think I’m an ORM that feels like the world is against me, hence thinking others feel the same way?

No I assume you feel in some way disadvantaged and impose that feeling onto others, and the result is dismissing something as explicitly discriminatory as the “URM” boost.

Success is absolutely NOT counted against you? I am pretty darn sure a 520 ORM has a higher chance of admission than a 515 ORM. Is that 'success being held against you'?

Oh boy. I meant intergenerationally. Having successful parents should NOT be a relative disadvantage.

 

[907914]

Oh boy. I meant intergenerationally. Having successful parents should NOT be a relative disadvantage.

Lifting the bottom up =/= tearing the top down.

 

[beattheprocess]

Lifting the bottom up =/= tearing the top down.

Yes it is. There is limited wealth to go around. It’s why raising the minimum wage and/or printing more money doesn’t solve poverty.

 

[CidHighwind]

No I assume you feel in some way disadvantaged and impose that feeling onto others, and the result is dismissing something as explicitly discriminatory as the “URM” boost.



Oh boy. I meant intergenerationally. Having successful parents should NOT be a relative disadvantage.

That’s not what projection is though, but you’re trying, I’ll give you that. What I’m getting at is that whatever “boost” URMs get, isn’t really substantial enough to allow them to be in medicine in high numbers. You’re much more likely to not “get in” because a rich legacies kid applies the same year as you vs the handful of students that get in because of some “advantage”.

 

[Dr panda]

"We will lower your admissions standards and make you work in those neighborhoods" is a no-go in the US

I thought this is the main point of affirmative action in medicine, of course nobody makes people work anywhere but this is assumed, I am far from politics, so I might be wrong

 

[907914]

I thought this is the main point of affirmative action in medicine, of course nobody make people work anywhere but this is assumed, I am far from politics, so I might be wrong

It is more or less the intent, but there is no legislation or contractual obligation so there is no 'trickle down' benefit to the under served areas. No one wants to go back home to serve their neighborhood (Understandably)

 

[beattheprocess]

That’s not what projection is though, but you’re trying, I’ll give you that. What I’m getting at is that whatever “boost” URMs get, isn’t really substantial enough to allow them to be in medicine in high numbers. You’re much more likely to not “get in” because a rich legacies kid applies the same year as you vs the handful of students that get in because of some “advantage”.

Haha. It’s quite literally the definition of projection but ok. Both are wrong. Love the whataboutism as well.

 

[CidHighwind]

Haha. It’s quite literally the definition of projection but ok. Both are wrong. Love the whataboutism as well.

K

 

[710118]

Lifting the bottom up =/= tearing the top down.

Of course it does. I am a URM but I am the first to admit that by giving some applicants preference over others, you are in effect lowering the chances other applicants have. URMs can get into top med schools with a 513. Show me caucasians or Asians with a 513 at Stanford.

 

[993444]

Show me caucasians or Asians with a 513 at Stanford.

I'm sure there are some whose parents are either Stanford donors or Stanford faculty members.

 

[Dr panda]

this pervasive and uniquely American stupid idea that everyone can make it if they just try hard enough.

That's why immigrants outperform local-born Americans, because in fact we believe in this "stupid idea". When you were raised in some poor corrupted country, come here, and see what this country can offer you, you work 100x times harder than ever before. This is hard to explain, you have to feel it. Of course, there is some % of population who had brutal life experience but saying the idea is stupid and assuming everyone is tied to the SES they were born with is too harsh and inaccurate.
Again, I might be biased but given my life experience this sounds stupid: I was born when my home country (largest in the world) was ripped apart with wars for independence by many border regions, I remember starvation, being homeless, and that feeling when you get your "golden ticket" to the US. Now situation is a bit better but most people still live in extreme poverty and have no options because to get a good position (or to get into top school) you have to bribe authorities. I (and especially my dad) know what is ethnic discrimination (1/2 jew, you can read about jewish discrimination in USSR and todays Russia). These will be main points of my adversity/challenge essays when I will be applying. America is by any means the best country in the World for those who had nothing but a dream. I went through poverty here, I was homeless here, I visited food pantries, and I even didn't know English (at least not enough to work) but I still believe in this idea. If you ask smart gifted people in many other countries what is your dream, they will tell you "move to the US", I remember my high school class, people with best exam scores, awards, honors, 90% of them wanted just to get out of Russia and move to the US. 3 of them (including me) are already here, there is a reason for brain drain in poor countries, and why US is the most attractive place for them. We all came from the same low SES, none of our parents even had cars, we used only public transportation, but the most smart and talented people studied 24/7 in high school and in college because they really wanted to move here, 2 of my close friends already did it even without money and they are on the way to their American dream (current PhD students).
I told all of this not to brag about but to give an idea how immigrants see this country. Not that rich people with fluent parents from fancy London districts but people from really poor and impoverished backgrounds.

 

[907914]

That's why immigrants outperform local-born Americans, because in fact we believe in this "stupid idea". When you were raised in some poor corrupted country, come here, and see what this country can offer you, you work 100x times harder than ever before. This is hard to explain, you have to feel it. Of course, there is some % of population who had brutal life experience but saying the idea is stupid and assuming everyone is tied to the SES they were born with is too harsh and inaccurate.
Again, I might be biased but given my life experience that sounds stupid: I was born when my home country (largest in the world) was ripped apart with wars for independence by many border regions, I remember starvation, being homeless, and that feeling when you get your "golden ticket" to the US. Now situation is a bit better but most people live in extreme poverty and have no options because to get a good position (or to get into top school) you have to bribe authorities. I (and especially my dad) know what is ethnic discrimination (1/2 jew, you can read about jewish discrimination in USSR and todays Russia). These will be main points of my adversity/challenge essays when I will be applying. America is by any means the best country in the World for those who had nothing but a dream. I went through poverty here, I was homeless here, I visited food pantries, and I even didn't know English (at least not enough to work) but I still believe in this idea.

Main point: if an immigrant from the former USSR works hard, learns English, gets an education, and tries to start a business then the bank will give him a loan because he has proven his effort.

If a black man from East Cleveland works hard, gets an education, and goes to the bank to get a loan to start a business, he will be denied the loan despite good credit, despite proving they are worth the money, because the implicit bias ingrained in the culture of the US tells that loan manager that this guy means trouble.

That is the difference. No amount of hard work matters if the society you are raised in tells you that your effort doesn’t matter simply because of who you are.

 

[beattheprocess]

If a black man from East Cleveland works hard, gets an education, and goes to the bank to get a loan to start a business, he will be denied the loan despite good credit, despite proving they are worth the money, because the implicit bias ingrained in the culture of the US tells that loan manager that this guy means trouble.

And more black doctors fixes this how?

 

[Dr panda]

Main point: if an immigrant from the former USSR works hard, learns English, gets an education, and tries to start a business then the bank will give him a loan because he has proven his effort.

If a black man from East Cleveland works hard, gets an education, and goes to the bank to get a loan to start a business, he will be denied the loan despite good credit, despite proving they are worth the money, because the implicit bias ingrained in the culture of the US tells that loan manager that this guy means trouble.

That is the difference. No amount of hard work matters if the society you are raised in tells you that your effort doesn’t matter simply because of who you are.

As a finance major I can tell that if you need a loan to start a business then you are doing something wrong. I am not talking about business, I am talking about education, this is the best social elevator one can rely on. In fact, people who work in high paying jobs make more than most business owners.

 

[Dr panda]

And more black doctors fixes this how?

They fix the problem that AA community experiences shortage of healthcare providers (especially PCP).

 

[907914]

As a finance major I can tell that if you need a loan to start a business then you are doing something wrong. I am not talking about business, I am talking about education, this is the best social elevator one can rely on. In fact, people who work in high paying jobs make more than most business owners.

And more black doctors fixes this how?

I used this as an easy to understand analogy for how systemic racism is ingrained in to the entire system of US social structure. Y’all are missing the damn point.

 

[Dr panda]

Main point: if an immigrant from the former USSR works hard, learns English, gets an education, and tries to start a business then the bank will give him a loan because he has proven his effort.

If a black man from East Cleveland works hard, gets an education, and goes to the bank to get a loan to start a business, he will be denied the loan despite good credit, despite proving they are worth the money, because the implicit bias ingrained in the culture of the US tells that loan manager that this guy means trouble.

That is the difference. No amount of hard work matters if the society you are raised in tells you that your effort doesn’t matter simply because of who you are.

Just to add, Nigerian immigrants make more than whites even being black. It doesn't matter which country you came from, all that really matters is your attitude.

 

[907914]

Just to add, Nigerian immigrants make more than whites even being black. It doesn't matter which country you came from, all that really matters is your attitude.

Nigerian immigrants are not raised in the systemic racism ingrained in to the social culture of the US. Nigerian immigrants make more, their children make far less. You are missing the point.

 

[beattheprocess]

I used this as an easy to understand analogy for how systemic racism is ingrained in to the entire system of US social structure. Y’all are missing the damn point.

I’m really not. Your example is completely unrelated to med school admissions.

 

[Dr panda]

their children make far less.

Any evidence of that?

 

[907914]

I’m really not. Your example is completely unrelated to med school admissions.

It highlights the systemic racism imbedded in every facet of US culture that oppressed persons of color who are raised in it. They are at an inherent disadvantage, regardless of individual effort. This has everything to do with medical school admissions. There cannot be a meritocracy when URMs have a constant weight/burden.

 

[907914]

Any evidence of that?

Redirect Notice

 

[Dr panda]

Redirect Notice

right from your article