When Do You Start the Job Hunt?

[LaBelleVN]

When do most people start searching for a job? Some of my former co-residents were lucky enough to have had offers prior to graduation (via connections). I've got one fellowship down (surgical pathology). I delayed the second fellowship (dermpath) until next year so I won't be done training until summer 2013. Does it hurt to send a cover letter and CV out or will prospective hirers think I'm crazy?

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[mlw03]

fall of (final) fellowship year is what i've most commonly seen. earlier than that and potential employers just won't know enough from their end to know whom they'd want to recruit. that said, if you have a specific place you're interested in, as long as you're not too crazy about it, i wouldn't see the harm in an introductory letter with attached CV.

 

[2121115]

I don't think it is ever too early to let a group know that you are interested in them.

 

[twentyone]

Now. Start now. It's never too early to make connections, especially if you're going to be limited in your job search somehow (geographical, specialty, compensation, etc.)

 

[mlw03]

Now. Start now. It's never too early to make connections, especially if you're going to be limited in your job search somehow (geographical, specialty, compensation, etc.)

i'll agree with this too. i was told it numerous times, and it paid off for me at least. as long as you're not too aggressive, never too early to let someone know you're particularly interested in working with them.

 

[KCShaw]

Connections yes, "Can you give me a job in 3 years?" probably not. There's a line there somewhere between showing interest and getting/staying connected to a person or group and blindly flailing around for jobs when it's unlikely a group will "hold" or guarantee a position for you 2 or 3 years ahead of time that they really need to fill soon. So while I agree it's never too early to start the process in general, make connections, show interest, etc., don't get into it expecting a written offer 2 or 3 years out. For the most part that's not going to happen, but 8-10 months out or so...yeah, much more likely. For some states it takes almost that long to get your license sorted out, plus any contract negotiations, insurance, moving, etc., and that's where the general timeframe of "seriously" looking for a job starting around fall of your final fellowship year (within a few months of starting that final fellowship) I think comes in.

 

[LaBelleVN]

Thank you all for the advice. I'll see where my husband matches for his surgery fellowship & then we'll discuss geographic locale, etc. We don't want to end up in the boonies, but I keep hearing how terrible the job market is for pathologists (even dermpaths). I might end up being a stay at home mom, eating my bon bons, and contemplating why I went to school/training for 26 years.

 

[cjw0918]

LaBelle, if you are going to be geographically limited, I'm assuming you would be looking at both private and academic jobs. If this is the case, you might want to prepare two CVs, one for academics and one for private. Obviously academics will emphasize research, teaching, and other academic pursuits and private will have details on what sign-out skills you have (e.g. trained at bigtime women's health hospital with Dr____, renowned gyn expert.) This was suggested to me and I think it is a good idea. Good luck

 

[path24]

I applied for a job the other week. I ended up begging the hr person to take my cv. They already had a ton and weren't interested in anymore (she tells me this without knowing a thing about my qualifications). I talked her into it, but i know it just got "filed".

I am just a board certified pawn....ummm I mean pathologist.

Board certified physician begging HR to take your cv....that's the pathology job market for you. Stay away from this field. I don't know how it could improve anytime in the next decade.

I am considering sending her a powerpoint about the job market....that will prove to her that I really am needed, the market is fine, and we are in demand. Gotta try to laugh otherwise its just to depressing.

 

[LaBelleVN]

@ cjw0918: That's good advice. Yes, I'll be looking at both academic & private jobs. Right now, we're mostly interested in the Northeast, anywhere from Virginia up to Maine.

@ path24: That really blows! Are you totally set on this one job opening? It's disheartening to know that you have to kiss HR's butt for her to even take your application. All the money we're giving to the ABP...and it doesn't even matter.

 

[KCShaw]

Be wary of HR departments, if you aren't already. It has been known to happen that individuals were offered jobs by a department but had their application silently booted by HR for one reason or another (such as complete ignorance by HR that a given application -does- meet the stated requirements, but they don't understand the meaning of all the certifications, or the applicant didn't add that they were a high school graduate along with being an MD, etc.). I have fairly little faith in the average HR department to understand the nuances of relatively complex jobs, or to take the time to learn. I would highly recommend not limiting your contact with any given job solely to the black hole of HR; there are many times you won't be able to avoid dealing with them, but take the time to inquire with your actual potential employer/boss about any openings, not just HR.

 

[Sulfinator]

Be wary of HR department . . . I would highly recommend not limiting your contact with any given job solely to the black hole of HR; there are many times you won't be able to avoid dealing with them, but take the time to inquire with your actual potential employer/boss about any openings, not just HR.

Yeah, HR can be a terrible hurdle for anyone, not just pathologists. My wife is a nurse and she had a heck of a time landing a job in the geographic area she wanted because she had no choice but to pray that the HR department took her application seriously. It was pretty terrible. And the only reason she finally got one of the jobs was because she made several phone calls to the HR contact person, which unveiled the fact that the HR person 'managing' her case just forgot/neglected to review and forward some of the applications on her list (one of which was my wife's). And that's in nursing! From an applicant's point of view, HR departments can be hellish sand traps. Avoid them if at all possible!

 

[lipomas]

A lot of the good pathology groups don't have HR departments. Unless it's a big institution which employers their pathologists, you shouldn't even have contact with an HR department.

It is never too early to start looking and making contacts. Obviously if you are two years from finishing you are unlikely to start getting offers. But you never know. I know a resident who had a job essentially locked up two years in advance because the group knew someone would retire in two years. When I was in residency I was contacted by a private group (via an attending recommendation) about 15 months before I was due to finish training because they had someone due to retire in a year and a half.

The timeline can be hard, because not all groups are the same. Sometimes the group has an unexpected need and they have to fill it within 6 months. Sometimes it's more flexible. Our recent hires have been ~12 months, 9 months, and 4 months ahead of their start date.

The timeline can also suck because you can get competing offers with different timelines. Someone decides to interview after a date when someone else wants a decision.

 

[egroupie]

I applied for a job the other week. I ended up begging the hr person to take my cv. They already had a ton and weren't interested in anymore (she tells me this without knowing a thing about my qualifications). I talked her into it, but i know it just got "filed".

I am just a board certified pawn....ummm I mean pathologist.

Board certified physician begging HR to take your cv....that's the pathology job market for you. Stay away from this field. I don't know how it could improve anytime in the next decade.

I am considering sending her a powerpoint about the job market....that will prove to her that I really am needed, the market is fine, and we are in demand. Gotta try to laugh otherwise its just to depressing.

LOL! This was my experience as well.
To the people looking for jobs, I also suggest a third CV for the fast food industry. You can keep telling yourself that it's "just in case" LOL

 

[Sulfinator]

LOL! This was my experience as well.

Are you still jobless, egroupie? If so (or even if not), what is your situation? Are you in a fellowship right now? A second fellowship?

 

[mlw03]

Should we also be talking about what our respective areas are? Is there major variability in the job markets for cytopathologists vs blood bankers vs etc? Or are most folks here talking about general community based diagnostic path when commenting on the job market? I'm an fp, so really not familiar with other job markets within our field. Most fp fellows seem to get jobs lined up winter to spring of the fellowship year, although exceptions certainly exist, and some fp fellows pursue additional training because they don't plan to practice as full time forensic specialists.

 

[KCShaw]

Probably. There doesn't seem to be much data formally separating the job market among the subspecialties thus far, except some for FP, heme, and transfusion. But it appears at least that the forensic path job market is significantly different to general surg path or other path subspecialties, and certainly one would think the same could be said about several other subspecialties -- pediatric, neuro, derm...

 

[KluverB]

No matter what anyone says, HR simply exists to act as a buffer between a company and its workers. Also, they are there to make sure you get paid the minimum they can negotiate you down to. Negotiate and lock in your contract, bene's, and remuneration with the CSO, CMO, well, someone other than an HR person who has ultimate decision making ability. Then, when HR tells you they can't possibly make you such-and-such an offer, tell 'em to go to hell. Works like a charm.

 

[egroupie]

when HR tells you they can't possibly make you such-and-such an offer, tell 'em to go to hell. Works like a charm.

I'm not so sure about this advice.
Most places receive a ton of CVs for positions within days of them opening.
Really its this entire field that is going "to hell"
The only reason most places still try to hire is to prevent their existing pathologists from quitting from the increased workload when someone leaves.

We simply do not need as many pathologists as we have right now. Look at the number of pathologists in the US versus another developed country like Japan:

The ABP will eventually come through and save some of our jobs when our certificates come up for renewal and people can't pass both exams again.

Until then however, most smart chairmen now do not replace retirees (just pile on the work for the existing suckers) and if they hire someone new, they want these appointments to find their own salaries while milking them for free clinical service. In general you (and many of my colleagues) feel safe because we all have jobs, but there is no reason that the chairman can't come in the next day and pull a Donald Trump. The fact is that what we do is too undervalued...we sit in a room somewhere and work, but no ones sees the effort we put in and frankly no one cares. The CAP has tried to reposition the entire profession more as clinicians, but big moves like that do not happen overnight and smack of desperation.

Good luck to us all. I will get back to rearranging the deck chairs...

 

[DIce3]

I had not seen that graph before. I can tell you from what we see in private practice pathology, the market is beyond completely oversaturated nationwide. Fifty applicants per job type of oversaturated. Thanks for the great graph.

 

[GlassPusherJack]

just to play devil's advocate, doesn't 'pathology specialist' only include anatomic path since laboratory medicine is separate training in japan?

I'm not so sure about this advice.
Most places receive a ton of CVs for positions within days of them opening.
Really its this entire field that is going "to hell"
The only reason most places still try to hire is to prevent their existing pathologists from quitting from the increased workload when someone leaves.

We simply do not need as many pathologists as we have right now. Look at the number of pathologists in the US versus another developed country like Japan:

The ABP will eventually come through and save some of our jobs when our certificates come up for renewal and people can't pass both exams again.

Until then however, most smart chairmen now do not replace retirees (just pile on the work for the existing suckers) and if they hire someone new, they want these appointments to find their own salaries while milking them for free clinical service. In general you (and many of my colleagues) feel safe because we all have jobs, but there is no reason that the chairman can't come in the next day and pull a Donald Trump. The fact is that what we do is too undervalued...we sit in a room somewhere and work, but no ones sees the effort we put in and frankly no one cares. The CAP has tried to reposition the entire profession more as clinicians, but big moves like that do not happen overnight and smack of desperation.

Good luck to us all. I will get back to rearranging the deck chairs...

 

[yaah]

just to play devil's advocate, doesn't 'pathology specialist' only include anatomic path since laboratory medicine is separate training in japan?

Different countries do things differently, so you probably have a point. I don't know how things are done in Japan but I don't think everything an AP/CP pathologist does in the US is also done by a pathologist in Japan. In some countries, CP is totally separate and sometimes done by clinicians.

 

[lipomas]

The entire field is not "going to hell," ok? No one is really going to pay attention to anything serious you have to say if you make comments like that. You can say the job market sucks or is less than optimal or whatever, but the field is not going to hell. I know a great many pathologists who have great jobs and enjoy their work and get paid quite well. I would also bet that the unemployed pathologist % is far less than the unemployed lawyer %.