When will AOA programs be available for MD/MBBS applicants to apply to ?

[koikisi]

I am guessing 2020? But that's if things go as scheduled. I have been seeing quite a few programs that are already AOA/ACGME accreddited just going through the MD match for most of the candidates. For instance, if they have 3 MD and 3 DO positions, they just put 1 in the DO match and 5 in the MD match, based on the amount of interest they get.

I'm just wondering how this will all play out.

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[BorntobeDO?]

I don't know this either. I was under the impression that the moment they get preliminary accreditation they become open to MD/MBBS. I have also heard 'rumors' about a combined match in 2018, so I think that could be a natural jumping off point as well. Just assume you will have to match against them and you won't be disappointed when/if it happens.

 

[NurWollen]

All we have now is hearsay and rumor. It would be nice of the AOA and ACGME would figure these things out so we can plan ahead.

 

[koikisi]

I don't know this either. I was under the impression that the moment they get preliminary accreditation they become open to MD/MBBS. I have also heard 'rumors' about a combined match in 2018, so I think that could be a natural jumping off point as well. Just assume you will have to match against them and you won't be disappointed when/if it happens.

I'd love to assume that, but the reality is, from my perspective, that the spots that went unfilled for DO's will now be lost to them and some DO's won't even be able to scramble into anything.

 

[Seth Joo]

I am guessing 2020? But that's if things go as scheduled. I have been seeing quite a few programs that are already AOA/ACGME accreddited just going through the MD match for most of the candidates. For instance, if they have 3 MD and 3 DO positions, they just put 1 in the DO match and 5 in the MD match, based on the amount of interest they get.

I'm just wondering how this will all play out.

I don't see any US MD applicant applying to AOA residency programs, the only MDs doing so will be the IMGs.

 

[deleted564680]

I don't see any US MD applicant applying to AOA residency programs, the only MDs doing so will be the IMGs.

I disagree. You don't think there are MDs out there that would gladly take a former AOA ortho, derm, ENT, neurosurg spot rather than no spot?

 

[Mad Jack]

I disagree. You don't think there are MDs out there that would gladly take a former AOA ortho, derm, ENT, neurosurg spot rather than no spot?

Those spots all fill in the AOA match. It's not like MDs will be scrambling into them

 

[Seth Joo]

I disagree. You don't think there are MDs out there that would gladly take a former AOA ortho, derm, ENT, neurosurg spot rather than no spot?

Even if they are not filled most PDs in AOA programs will not take MDs.

 

[GUH]

Those spots all fill in the AOA match. It's not like MDs will be scrambling into them

Right... The question is when those spots will not participate the AOA match.

 

[koikisi]

Yes, then when the matches become unified this way, I imagine it would be hard for PD's to look over FMG's with Top USMLE scores over DO grad's who just scraped by.

 

[Mjolner]

Yes, then when the matches become unified this way, I imagine it would be hard for PD's to look over FMG's with Top USMLE scores over DO grad's who just scraped by.

If you're saying the unified match will make IMGs more competitive, you're wrong. Everything I've seen or heard has been uniform in saying that this will squeeze out IMGs.

Whether it will be better for the DOs or USMDs has yet to be seen. But everyone seems to agree that the IMGs are left out in the cold on this one.

 

[hse]

people seem to have forgotten that one of the official reasons for the increase in u.s. med students is to reduce the dependence on foreign-trained doctors... it is a coordinated response to this important question: why can't i get an american doctor? why can't i get a doctor who speaks english? why are we importing foreigners? why can't we have more schools so my son/daughter can be a doctor? etc. etc.

 

[hse]

Yes, then when the matches become unified this way, I imagine it would be hard for PD's to look over FMG's with Top USMLE scores over DO grad's who just scraped by.

you're assuming pds in do programs will not prefer/protect their own and behave differently than pds in current md programs

 

[the argus]

If you're saying the unified match will make IMGs more competitive, you're wrong. Everything I've seen or heard has been uniform in saying that this will squeeze out IMGs.

Whether it will be better for the DOs or USMDs has yet to be seen. But everyone seems to agree that the IMGs are left out in the cold on this one.

Curious as to why you think this is the case.

As it is now, NRMP is open to USMDs/DOs/IMGs. The AOA match is only open to DOs. All this merger is effectively doing is making the AOA spots now open to USMDs/IMGs. Not sure how you get to the point of IMGs being left out in the cold.

Now it's another story if you are talking about the overall increase in US medical school positions, which will eventually squeeze out some IMGs. I just don't understand how opening up the AOA residency positions to USMDs/IMGs could be bad for IMGs.

 

[hallowmann]

I don't know this either. I was under the impression that the moment they get preliminary accreditation they become open to MD/MBBS. I have also heard 'rumors' about a combined match in 2018, so I think that could be a natural jumping off point as well. Just assume you will have to match against them and you won't be disappointed when/if it happens.

They can't participate in the NRMP match until they are ACGME accredited. Pre-accredited does not equal accredited. All it means is that they applied for accreditation. The programs won't be able to participate in the match until they attain Initial Accreditation. That will probably take 1 yr or more from the submission of their application.

I don't see any US MD applicant applying to AOA residency programs, the only MDs doing so will be the IMGs.

That's really inaccurate. Plenty of US MD applicants would be happy to apply to DO programs in places like CA or big cities like NYC, Chicago, etc. I've already heard from US MD friends asking me when x program will become open to them so they can apply.

 

[Seth Joo]

They can't participate in the NRMP match until they are ACGME accredited. Pre-accredited does not equal accredited. All it means is that they applied for accreditation. The programs won't be able to participate in the match until they attain Initial Accreditation. That will probably take 1 yr or more from the submission of their application.



That's really inaccurate. Plenty of US MD applicants would be happy to apply to DO programs in places like CA or big cities like NYC, Chicago, etc. I've already heard from US MD friends asking me when x program will become open to them so they can apply.

So they are picking a residency for location?? Not great a decision.

 

[hallowmann]

So they are picking a residency for location?? Not great a decision.

Its pretty much the #1 reason people pick a residency program (not a field mind you, but the program).

EDIT: For actual data: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Applicant-Survey-Report-2015.pdf
-The highest percentage of US Seniors cite location as a primary factor in selecting a program to apply to. The only thing that's rated as "more important" is "goodness of fit" and things equally as important are "house staff morale", "quality of residents" and quality of education/training.

 

[Seth Joo]

Its pretty much the #1 reason people pick a residency program (not a field mind you, but the program).

EDIT: For actual data: http://www.nrmp.org/wp-content/uploads/2015/09/Applicant-Survey-Report-2015.pdf
-The highest percentage of US Seniors cite location as a primary factor in selecting a program to apply to. The only thing that's rated as "more important" is "goodness of fit" and things equally as important are "house staff morale", "quality of residents" and quality of education/training.

So these students would pick some AOA program even if they matched at Mass General?

 

[22031 Alum]

So these students would pick some AOA program even if they matched at Mass General?

This question doesn't make sense, as you can only match to one program. But there are absolutely applicants who would blanket apply to every program in a certain place if they could, AOA or not. Either because of simple preference ("I'd rather match to the worst program in Boston than a top program in Alabama"), or because of personal/family reasons. Location can be a major, major factor in applications and ranking.

 

[Seth Joo]

This question doesn't make sense, as you can only match to one program. But there are absolutely applicants who would blanket apply to every program in a certain place if they could, AOA or not. Either because of simple preference ("I'd rather match to the worst program in Boston than a top program in Alabama"), or because of personal/family reasons. Location can be a major, major factor in applications and ranking.

Boston is a great city, and Mass General is probably has the best programs in the entire nation. For me its home.

 

[Mjolner]

So these students would pick some AOA program even if they matched at Mass General?

I feel like using "even if they matched at MGH" is like the SDN version godwins rule about nazis.

 

[22031 Alum]

Boston is a great city, and Mass General is probably has the best programs in the entire nation. For me its home.

Yes, I understand all that, but you asked if somebody would pick an AOA program "if they matched at MGH." That doesn't make sense. There's no picking after matching. Maybe you just phrased it weird, and meant to ask if somebody would pick an AOA program if they were capable of matching at MGH. In which case, the answer is "absolutely yes." Many people only consider the best programs they can without regard for geography, but many others most certainly place geography over "reputation."

 

[Seth Joo]

Yes, I understand all that, but you asked if somebody would pick an AOA program "if they matched at MGH." That doesn't make sense. There's no picking after matching. Maybe you just phrased it weird, and meant to ask if somebody would pick an AOA program if they were capable of matching at MGH. In which case, the answer is "absolutely yes." Many people only consider the best programs they can without regard for geography, but many others most certainly place geography over "reputation."

I already realize that, I was thinking of a "what if" scenario, what if a medical student had a chance going to a program at MGH versus some AOA program. Its well known among DO students that ACGME programs are more desirable.

 

[22031 Alum]

I already realize that, I was thinking of a "what if" scenario, what if a medical student had a chance going to a program at MGH versus some AOA program. Its well known among DO students that ACGME programs are more desirable.

I can guarantee that some nonzero number of applicants would rank a former-AOA program in a very desirable (to them) city higher than even an ACGME powerhouse program in an undesirable city.

 

[Seth Joo]

I can guarantee that some nonzero number of applicants would rank a former-AOA program in a very desirable (to them) city higher than even an ACGME powerhouse program in an undesirable city.

Well Boston is not undesirable, easily the best American city, one of a handful of US cities that ranks in global rankings in quality of life up there with cities in Western Europe, Canada, and Australia. If you are talking about Baltimore vs San Diego then you have a point.

 

[22031 Alum]

Well Boston is not undesirable, easily the best American city, one of a handful of US cities that ranks in global rankings in quality of life up there with cities in Western Europe, Canada, and Australia. If you are talking about Baltimore vs San Diego then you have a point.

I know I have a point, but you're talking past it by fixating on Boston. The fact of the matter is, each individual applicant weighs different factors differently, and location is one of those factors. There are applicants out there who would prefer a former-AOA program in City A over a Top 10 program in City B and rank them accordingly, just because they want to be in City A. Earlier, you expressed disbelief that this could happen: (Your quote: "So they are picking a residency for location??"). So I was explaining how it does in fact happen, more often than you think.

 

[Seth Joo]

I know I have a point, but you're talking past it by fixating on Boston. The fact of the matter is, each individual applicant weighs different factors differently, and location is one of those factors. There are applicants out there who would prefer a former-AOA program in City A over a Top 10 program in City B and rank them accordingly, just because they want to be in City A. Earlier, you expressed disbelief that this could happen: (Your quote: "So they are picking a residency for location??"). So I was explaining how it does in fact happen, more often than you think.

There is another issue with an AOA residency, once you complete one you have to pay membership dues annually to the AOA, somehow I do not think you need to do this when you complete an MD residency. I wonder if this will change with the merger.

 

[meliora27]

There is another issue with an AOA residency, once you complete one you have to pay membership dues annually to the AOA, somehow I do not think you need to do this when you complete an MD residency. I wonder if this will change with the merger.

My understanding of this is that once the 'merger' is complete, at the end of residency, physicians will have a choice of board certifying through the ABMS (MD) or through the AOA.

Somehow, the AOA believes that retaining osteopathic distinction is important, and their surveys show that new grads will still elect to certify through the AOA.

 

[hallowmann]

There is another issue with an AOA residency, once you complete one you have to pay membership dues annually to the AOA, somehow I do not think you need to do this when you complete an MD residency. I wonder if this will change with the merger.

You have to pay dues to maintain your AOA board certification. Graduates of ACGME programs have pay dues to their respective board certification organization to maintain their own respective board certification (this of course varies and in some cases is a non-issue).

But the thing is, you only need to pay your AOA dues if you are taking the AOA boards. If the programs are ACGME accredited you can just take the ABMS boards (and pay whatever dues are needed then).

In any case, no one is choosing between MGH and former AOA programs, that's not how it would work. They would rank MGH first, then the former AOA program 2nd, and then be happy if they matched to either because they'd be happy that they matched in the region they wanted to .

 

[Seth Joo]

You have to pay dues to maintain your AOA board certification. Graduates of ACGME programs have pay dues to their respective board certification organization to maintain their own respective board certification (this of course varies and in some cases is a non-issue).

But the thing is, you only need to pay your AOA dues if you are taking the AOA boards. If the programs are ACGME accredited you can just take the ABMS boards (and pay whatever dues are needed then).

In any case, no one is choosing between MGH and former AOA programs, that's not how it would work. They would rank MGH first, then the former AOA program 2nd, and then be happy if they matched to either because they'd be happy that they matched in the region they wanted to .

Going to MGH would kill two birds with one stone, you would be training at the best hospital in the United States, and you would also be living in the best city in America.

 

[QualityProcess]

its crazy to try and have a productive discussion with someone who exclusively communicates in non sequiturs

 

[AnatomyGrey12]

There are plenty of people who would choose to not live in Boston... Regardless of how competative they are...

 

[DrEnderW]

There are plenty of people who would choose to not live in Boston... Regardless of how competative they are...

Thank you.

Under no circumstances would I ever apply to a Boston program.

 

[costales]

Thank you.
Under no circumstances would I ever apply to a Boston program.

What, you don't wanna be the awesomest richest bestest doctor in the galaxy?

 

[FutureDO2016]

My guess is after 2018-2020, I would guess MD's will be allowed to apply for AOA positions which will be dual accredited by then accepting MD's and DO's.

However, I think foreign medical graduates including Caribbean students will see less being matched because many DO and MD schools have expanded their class sizes and there are new DO schools graduating hundreds of more students.

 

[GUH]

My guess is after 2018-2020, I would guess MD's will be allowed to apply for AOA positions which will be dual accredited by then accepting MD's and DO's.

However, I think foreign medical graduates including Caribbean students will see less being matched because many DO and MD schools have expanded their class sizes and there are new DO schools graduating hundreds of more students.

There will be no dual accreditation after 2020 because the AOA will cease to accredit programs. There will be an option for "osteopathic recognition" but given that only 16 programs in total had applied as of a week ago, it doesn't look like this will be very common.

 

[hallowmann]

There will be no dual accreditation after 2020 because the AOA will cease to accredit programs. There will be an option for "osteopathic recognition" but given that only 16 programs in total had applied as of a week ago, it doesn't look like this will be very common.

Its 18 now. 2 a week isn't bad if it continues there will be hundreds of programs with osteopathic focus by the end.

 

[NurWollen]

Its 18 now. 2 a week isn't bad if it continues there will be hundreds of programs with osteopathic focus by the end.

Where can we look up which programs have applied for osteopathic recognition? I just know where to look up which ones have pre-accreditation.

 

[hallowmann]

Where can we look up which programs have applied for osteopathic recognition? I just know where to look up which ones have pre-accreditation.

Same place. You can find all those links here:

https://apps.acgme.org/ads/public/

 

[ortnakas]

Same place. You can find all those links here:

https://apps.acgme.org/ads/public/

Thanks!

Only 4 IM programs so far is a bit disconcerting, but I'm sure you're right and it's just beginning.

 

[GUH]

Its 18 now. 2 a week isn't bad if it continues there will be hundreds of programs with osteopathic focus by the end.

Might've been 18 before tbh. I hope the number increases rapidly though.

 

[user3]

https://apps.acgme.org/ads/Public/Reports/ReportRun?ReportId=18&CurrentYear=2015&SpecialtyId=

I am curious how many of these ~40 programs with pre-accreditation will have full accreditation in time for the 2016-17 application cycle.

 

[hallowmann]

Might've been 18 before tbh. I hope the number increases rapidly though.

You were right, it was 16 before, I remember running the report then too.

 

[dozitgetchahi]

This question doesn't make sense, as you can only match to one program. But there are absolutely applicants who would blanket apply to every program in a certain place if they could, AOA or not. Either because of simple preference ("I'd rather match to the worst program in Boston than a top program in Alabama"), or because of personal/family reasons. Location can be a major, major factor in applications and ranking.

Exactly.

There are different cadres of residency applicants. There is a portion that want to simply go to the best program they can possibly match into - but these people don't represent the majority. In my experience with my graduating class, probably less than 10% of people fall into this category. The rest care about location to different degrees. At one extreme, there's the people that only want to be in xyz location (for family reasons, etc) and are determined to match there no matter how ****ty the programs are - this probably accounted for 25%+ of the people I knew. The rest were somewhat flexible about location but still often had heavy location preferences.

A lot of people grew up within 100 miles of my school and really, really didn't want to leave that immediate area.

 

[deleted564680]

If there's really only ~40 programs that have applied for pre-accreditation at this point then that's a bit upsetting. I wonder what percentage of AOA programs are going to end up shut down? 30% 50%. I would imagine for subspecialties like neurosurgery and ENT that it will be almost all of the programs. Not sure how this helps DOs other than shuffling them more toward primary care (the real goal of both AOA and ACGME).

 

[AlbinoHawk DO]

Even if they are not filled most PDs in AOA programs will not take MDs.

They won't take the majority but a chance is better than not trying at all.

So they are picking a residency for location?? Not great a decision.

A lot of people pick residency based on location, and it may be a great decision for them. Many students in this era have concerns about family and lifestyle.

 

[hallowmann]

If there's really only ~40 programs that have applied for pre-accreditation at this point then that's a bit upsetting. I wonder what percentage of AOA programs are going to end up shut down? 30% 50%. I would imagine for subspecialties like neurosurgery and ENT that it will be almost all of the programs. Not sure how this helps DOs other than shuffling them more toward primary care (the real goal of both AOA and ACGME).

You know it's been less than 3 months since they could apply, right? And classically most programs don't put on effort to change until they absolutely have to. In addition, many programs can't apply until their OPTI or sponsoring organization is accredited.

In any case, even if we were to use the 40 programs as a measure, there will be over 800 programs that apply, which is about 70% of all DO programs. So even using a poorly representative sample that likely undershoots the real number, at most 30% would not apply.

I'm not saying some programs aren't going to shut down, but your post is all doom and gloom without any real data.

 

[as90]

I don't think the PD's of these AOA programs are going to care much about DO's given that quite a few of them are not even DO's.

Believe me when I tell you that there are some sharp high scoring IMG's who would be vying for these spots. These residents are very sharp and would be more efficient, than someone who is just graduating medical school.

 

[costales]

Eh. High scores and rote knowledge don't always correlate to efficiency. Step 1 means squat when you're running a code or trying to stabilize a patient. Familiarity and common sense are far more important.

 

[RM38]

For those of you who think AOA programs won't look at MD's I would think you are being very foolish. Look at the Mercy Gen Surg program in Iowa. They were a one of the top AOA programs and it is now ACGME accredited. First year they had 3 DO's and 1 MD. Last year it was 4 MD's. Many of these places are going to interview the best candidates they think they can get and they will not decline to rank applicants and risk going unmatched just to stay loyal to the DO schools. Some programs probably will, but obviously some others won't.