When you don't know where else to turn...PLEASE HELP!!

[psych for path]

.

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Therapist4Chnge]

To everyone reading this, I am in urgent need of guidance! I was just accepted into an incredibly prestigious social work program, and I am completely torn as to whether or not I should accept this offer. I have always wanted to do work with severe and persistent mental illness, do psychotherapy with personality disorder patients, and perhaps get involved in mental health policy and social justice aspects as they relate to chronic mental illness and homelessness. I want to be a great, well trained clinician; I also know that I dont like standard psych research and would much prefer policy to academia if I veer from my clinical focus. The problem is that I have always wanted a doctorate in clinical psych, but have realized that I would really only be fully happy in a psyd program. When I look at the Rutgers curriculum, I am excited. When I look at social work curricula, I feel I could e engaged enough to use it as a means to an end. I have been reading this board for quite awhile and would be lying if I said that it hasn't staved me off of clinical psychology almost entirely. I am very young, have no exterior financial support for grad school, and come from a very intense academic undergraduate background. I have lined up all the credentials for a doctoral program, and planned my life around getting in. However, the financial obligations, hoop jumping for low pay off, and many many years of training without a guaranteed comfortable lifestyle after led me to apply to this one MSW program with the hopes that by the time I got in I would have figured it all out. Since I haven't, I am turning to the same community that made me doubt my decision to begin with. Can anyone give me some real reasons why a doctorate makes sense for me, when clinical and policy are my main goals? The thing that scares me most about SW is that I'll have inadequate training to actually create change in the field and/or as a psychotherapist.

If you do not want to participate in research and utilize research in your training, you are not a good fit for doctoral training. A Psy.D. is not Doctoral Training - Research. As for additional training...I would encourage you to pursue additional training outside of your SW program if you want to focus on psychotherapy, particularly if you want to work in a niche area/population.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

If you like policy, you might try exploring research in mental health policy. I don't see why a SW degree would deter you. In fact, it might be the exact thing that is right for you.

 

[psychology24]

To everyone reading this, I am in urgent need of guidance! I was just accepted into an incredibly prestigious social work program, and I am completely torn as to whether or not I should accept this offer. I have always wanted to do work with severe and persistent mental illness, do psychotherapy with personality disorder patients, and perhaps get involved in mental health policy and social justice aspects as they relate to chronic mental illness and homelessness. I want to be a great, well trained clinician; I also know that I dont like standard psych research and would much prefer policy to academia if I veer from my clinical focus. The problem is that I have always wanted a doctorate in clinical psych, but have realized that I would really only be fully happy in a psyd program. When I look at the Rutgers curriculum, I am excited. When I look at social work curricula, I feel I could e engaged enough to use it as a means to an end. I have been reading this board for quite awhile and would be lying if I said that it hasn't staved me off of clinical psychology almost entirely. I am very young, have no exterior financial support for grad school, and come from a very intense academic undergraduate background. I have lined up all the credentials for a doctoral program, and planned my life around getting in. However, the financial obligations, hoop jumping for low pay off, and many many years of training without a guaranteed comfortable lifestyle after led me to apply to this one MSW program with the hopes that by the time I got in I would have figured it all out. Since I haven't, I am turning to the same community that made me doubt my decision to begin with. Can anyone give me some real reasons why a doctorate makes sense for me, when clinical and policy are my main goals? The thing that scares me most about SW is that I'll have inadequate training to actually create change in the field and/or as a psychotherapist.

There have been a few other threads about this topic with SW vs. Psychology-related training. I personally left my SW program after a year because I thought it was awful and I completely am against telling people to do the "LCSW" route if all they want to do is psychotherapy. Social work does not= psychotherapy. However, if you do pursue this route because you want a "back door" to psychotherapy, then there are plenty of opportunities to pursue while in school and post-MSW that can provide you the essential training, which is usually not found in social work programs. I know that there are some MSW programs very therapy oriented (I think Smith's is one), but I think you should take a hard look and reflect on WHY you are going into it and WHAT you want to get out of it (both future-oriented- i.e.. career as well as present oriented- i.e. coursework in social welfare, social justice, mico-counseling skills, and maybe 1 course in research that is glossed over). Feel free to PM me if you want to talk about it in further detail. Good luck!

 

[psychology24]

Also, in terms of policy and making a change in that area, psychology is definitely in need of folks like you. I think a doctoral program would be rise so you can get involved with APA. If you go the SW route, you'll get involved in NASW's organization

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

I think that you may really like a Psy.D. I'm in a Psy.D. program because I wanted to work with comorbid disorders and felt that my Masters and licensure on the Masters level wasn't adequate for me to do the competent level of work that I wanted to do. I have been pleased with it every step of the way thus far, also. I know the money is an issue, as I have a stipend for the research I do but it is nowhere near close to tuition remission... but that doesn't bother me, partly because I live in a very affordable area and am in a dual income home where we can afford my student loan payments and our other expenses. I plan on doing some therapy, some research, some teaching and some advocacy/public policy work in the future and have spoken with some of the psychologists whom I aspire to be like who have affirmed this route as viable options for those career goals.

Its not an easy choice, but good luck to you in weighing each option and deciding which bets fits your goals!

 

[wigflip]

I personally left my SW program after a year because I thought it was awful and I completely am against telling people to do the "LCSW" route if all they want to do is psychotherapy. Social work does not= psychotherapy.

+1

But it's all you hear (at least in my geographic region)--anyone not aspiring to the doctorate in clin psych (and even some of those who are) is steered away from other licensable masters degree options and towards the MSW. Social workers (alongside non-social workers) exhibited a lot of derision towards MFT programs/curriculum, even though many of those programs appeared to provide much more thorough clinical training.

 

[Psychadelic2012]

I have always wanted to do work with severe and persistent mental illness, do psychotherapy with personality disorder patients, and perhaps get involved in mental health policy and social justice aspects as they relate to chronic mental illness and homelessness...I also know that I dont like standard psych research and would much prefer policy to academia if I veer from my clinical focus.

If you like policy, you might try exploring research in mental health policy. I don't see why a SW degree would deter you. In fact, it might be the exact thing that is right for you.

Also, in terms of policy and making a change in that area, psychology is definitely in need of folks like you. I think a doctoral program would be rise so you can get involved with APA. If you go the SW route, you'll get involved in NASW's organization

I'm going to clarify my original response, because I am not sure if what I was hinting at could be fully understood. When a social work researcher pursues policy work and/or research in the field (geared towards social justice), there are some very specific opportunities to work at the governmental level--such as with lobbyists, members of congress, etc. It's not just about working for the trade organizations. I know of a PhD in social work, for example, who studies a topic related to social justice (trying to stay anonymous here) and actively collects data from congressional hearings--that is what this person studies and publishes! It's fascinating and rewarding work for her, with a great deal of time spent networking with politicians and lobbyists in DC.

When I was in an MSW program, briefly (before I dropped out, for reasons similar to others here), the policy courses highlighted literature on mental health parity and access to services, for example. This is something that seems to have been taken up by social work research largely (but not totally) and something that can be pursued in the field. A PhD in social work is solely a research degree, though, unlike a clinical psychology doctorate. However, I think they all require an MSW/LCSW for entry, so direct practice is emphasized as part of the program--although that work does not have to be psychotherapy (but it certainly could).

Not saying this is the path you should take, but it's an option that psychology students don't necessarily know about. Plus, your stated interest in policy (and lack of interest in 'standard psych research') made me think to describe this aspect of SW.

 

[wigflip]

but have realized that I would really only be fully happy in a psyd program. When I look at the Rutgers curriculum, I am excited. When I look at social work curricula, I feel I could e engaged enough to use it as a means to an end.

Wow--that really popped out at me. Grad school is a grind, and without some degree of passion, you're signing up for a grueling time. But psychadelic's point about your interest in policy work is well taken. Is there an option to defer your MSW acceptance until you figure this out?

 

[psych for path]

Wow, thanks everyone- I really appreciate all of the response. Unfortunately I cannot defer my acceptance, making it all the more difficult to turn it down.

I wanted to make one thing clear, however: I fully intend to work clinically as the main focus of my career for the majority and, from this vantage point, entirety of my time. However, I recognize that this may not be sustainable/varied enough, and see myself doing something that affects policy, not necessarily direct lobbying types of policy...ie be part of an interdisciplinary mental health stigma and/or mentally ill homeless prevention research group (does that exist?). This is something I've only recently realized- is this an aspect of my interests that I will be most likely forgoing if I pursue clin psych?

Right now, I very much worry that a SW program will leave me intellectually dissatisfied and undertrained in psychotherapy and theory. However, the doctorate route (when not entirely research geared) seems to be an unjustifiably costly venture, regardless of how professionally and intellectually enticing it is.

Again, I can't tell you all how much I appreciate it!

 

[psych for path]

Again, I should mention- I see SW as my "other" option not ONLY because it feels like a shortcut to practicing therapy (which I fully realize is inherently ridiculous since I know I would have little to no formal psychotherapy training upon graduating without attending further institute trainings), but also because I am very committed to my career involving all of the things SW programs love to throw around- discussions of oppression and discrimination, stigma, unequal access to mental health care, etc...

 

[ClinPsychEnthus]

Wow, thanks everyone- I really appreciate all of the response. Unfortunately I cannot defer my acceptance, making it all the more difficult to turn it down.

I wanted to make one thing clear, however: I fully intend to work clinically as the main focus of my career for the majority and, from this vantage point, entirety of my time. However, I recognize that this may not be sustainable/varied enough, and see myself doing something that affects policy, not necessarily direct lobbying types of policy...ie be part of an interdisciplinary mental health stigma and/or mentally ill homeless prevention research group (does that exist?). This is something I've only recently realized- is this an aspect of my interests that I will be most likely forgoing if I pursue clin psych?

Right now, I very much worry that a SW program will leave me intellectually dissatisfied and undertrained in psychotherapy and theory. However, the doctorate route (when not entirely research geared) seems to be an unjustifiably costly venture, regardless of how professionally and intellectually enticing it is.

Again, I can't tell you all how much I appreciate it!

A lot of the recovery-oriented services research in clinical psych focuses on these very things. Check out the work of Larry Davidson, Mary O'Connell, Janice Tondora, and their team of researchers at Yale.

 

[psychology24]

Right now, I very much worry that a SW program will leave me intellectually dissatisfied and undertrained in psychotherapy and theory. However, the doctorate route (when not entirely research geared) seems to be an unjustifiably costly venture, regardless of how professionally and intellectually enticing it is.

Absolutely- at least that was the case for me during the time I was in my program. So it may be necessary to keep in mind some SW programs will be much more concentrated (almost seem like you are in a MA Clinical Psych program) than others.

My suggestion is to talk with some psychologists and others in the field. These forums, at times, convey a negative outlook on the field particularly for practice-oriented professional psychologists. It might be helpful to contact practicing psychologists for their opinions, contacting the the Division for Psychologists in Independent Practice, browsing around APA's "practice central" website (http://www.apapracticecentral.org/index.aspx), or check out the "Professional Psychology: Research and Practice" journal.

And as for policy, there are plenty of opportunities for psychologists (doctoral-level education). Here is one avenue that I believe is fairly new: http://www.apa.org/pi/mfp/psychology/postdoc/index.aspx

Also, keep in mind if you do the MSW route, there are PLENTY of opportunities afterwards for you to get a good dosage of psychotherapy training. I remember looking into several "Post-MSW Fellowships" such as: Simmons College, Emory, Michigan, UC Berkeley San Fran. And there are 1-2 year psychodynamic psychotherapy trainings offered by most (if not all) Psychoanalytic Institutes, if that is something you want to further pursue in regards to psychotherapy training. All in all, it really depends on YOU making the most of the degree and defining the degree, rather than having the degree define it for you. My only reservation is when I hear people say the time commitment is far less, because when you take into consideration the necessary (in myopinion) additional psychotherapy trainings, you are not saving that much time than a Psy.D or practice-oriented Ph.D.

 

[wigflip]

I am very committed to my career involving all of the things SW programs love to throw around- discussions of oppression and discrimination, stigma, unequal access to mental health care, etc...

This was part of my reasoning in selecting the MSW as well. The discrepancy between my expectation (based on the reputation of the field of social work as concerned with social justice, as well as things I'd heard about my particular program) and my perception of the program (especially with regards to attitudes of the profs and students, curriculum) is part of why I left.

At the risk of sounding immensely cynical, I get the impression that you think that you are going to learn something crucial in an MSW program that you couldn't otherwise get if you took another path (some special class on policy work?). If you're as smart as I think you are, I'd rethink that. I don't think there's any reason you can't pick up the policy piece alongside psych training. Unless of course your MSW program has been thoroughly vetted (you know for a fact that it will meet your expectations with regards to the political/policy piece). And you can discuss discrimination and stigma in a social psych class, or with politically progressive friends.

 

[Qwerk]

Social work does not= psychotherapy.

I disagree that an M.S.W. isn't a degree with which one can exclusively practice therapy. Many do. However, I agree that many (most?) programs aren't as clinically-focused as a psychotherapist might require, and that even in clinical-track programs, students do need to be proactive to get the right amount of therapeutic experience. Might be a good idea to contact graduates of potential programs on LinkedIn to see what their impressions are. However, if P4P is interested in policy and practice, an M.S.W. might very well be appropriate. There are clinical programs with a strong social justice focus out there -- mine is one. It might be a more versatile degree if s/he decides that s/he no longer wants to be a clinician, or wants to branch out a little.

Psych_for_path, where in the country are you? Have you looked at counseling, MFT, and M.A. psych programs?