Where are all the unhappy docs?

[surftheiop]

So your always seeing articles in the news about docs being unhappy/dissatisfied, then I found SDN and read all the opinions that medicine is going down the drain and docs don't love their job.

But this is completly contrary to what I have seen over the past couple years of shadowing, volunteering and doing research.

Well over half of the MD's I talk to say they "have the greatest job in the world". For those who are slightly less enthuisastic they say that the job can be tough, but that they never have to wonder if what they do for their career is important and say they couldn't really see themself doing anything else. All of them agree that their is something special about medicine and feel like its an honor to get to be a physician.

Is this just a matter of a few loud angry people casting a cloud over the media? Just a result of living in the South where people are happier? I'm sort of confused because the contrast between what I read and what I see is huge.

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[armybound]

Which speciaties have you been shadowing, volunteering and doing research with?

 

[surftheiop]

Which speciaties have you been shadowing, volunteering and doing research with?

peds and psych mostly, some rads.

then just random conversations with few FP, plastics, allergy

 

[apumic]

So your always seeing articles in the news about docs being unhappy/dissatisfied, then I found SDN and read all the opinions that medicine is going down the drain and docs don't love their job.

But this is completly contrary to what I have seen over the past couple years of shadowing, volunteering and doing research.

Well over half of the MD's I talk to say they "have the greatest job in the world". For those who are slightly less enthuisastic they say that the job can be tough, but that they never have to wonder if what they do for their career is important and say they couldn't really see themself doing anything else. All of them agree that their is something special about medicine and feel like its an honor to get to be a physician.

Is this just a matter of a few loud angry people casting a cloud over the media? Just a result of living in the South where people are happier? I'm sort of confused because the contrast between what I read and what I see is huge.

Like armybound, my first question would be who you're shadowing.

My second would be just how candid these docs are really being. Realize that what a doc says to his colleagues may be very different from what he says to you. He has an interest in you entering the profession (i.e., to provide healthcare for him when he needs it), not in scaring you away (he's not afraid of losing business). Additionally, complaining is generally something you don't do in front of shadows unless the relationship goes quite a bit beyond just shadowing (i.e., you're more of a family friend or straight-up friend with this doc you're shadowing). In all honesty, I still don't hear the medical director on my unit complain even though I know she has expressed her concerns and complaints to some of our most senior nurses. Likewise, I don't complain in front of my Pts nor in front of people I'm precepting (training). It's a matter of boundaries. There are some great things about medicine but there are a lot of downsides as well. It's also likely that when you're shadowing, other staff try and be as enthusiastic as possible. They probably avoid upsetting the doc when you're around if at all possible.

 

[deleted202457]

Drs are just like normal ppl. Normal unhappy ppl don't usually tell strangers they are unhappy. So why would a dr be any different? He has no reason to tell you that kind of personal info unless you and him were really close or he is just an extremely open guy.

 

[Cleavername]

So your always seeing articles in the news about docs being unhappy/dissatisfied, then I found SDN and read all the opinions that medicine is going down the drain and docs don't love their job.

But this is completly contrary to what I have seen over the past couple years of shadowing, volunteering and doing research.

Well over half of the MD's I talk to say they "have the greatest job in the world". For those who are slightly less enthuisastic they say that the job can be tough, but that they never have to wonder if what they do for their career is important and say they couldn't really see themself doing anything else. All of them agree that their is something special about medicine and feel like its an honor to get to be a physician.

Is this just a matter of a few loud angry people casting a cloud over the media? Just a result of living in the South where people are happier? I'm sort of confused because the contrast between what I read and what I see is huge.

If they would have said the opposite of that sentence, it would have admit 4 years of schooling + 4 years of residency or so + 200k would have been a waste. not many people have the balls to do that. just something to keep in mind.

 

[armybound]

I'm not sure, but I'd think those who work in academia would also be shielded a bit from the drop in Medicare compensation lately. If you really want to see someone who's upset, find a doctor who has a private practice and accepts Medicare.

 

[surftheiop]

Drs are just like normal ppl. Normal unhappy ppl don't usually tell strangers they are unhappy. So why would a dr be any different? He has no reason to tell you that kind of personal info unless you and him were really close or he is just an extremely open guy.

I find it hard to believe that these people are willing to talk to me about their careers, challenges they face, things they enjoy, thing they don't enjoy and then look me in the eyes and make up some lie about how much they love their job.

Many of these people have known me for much longer than I have been considering medicine and I can trust they would not intentionally mis-lead me. Others I have only know for a short time and I see no reason for them to intentionally go out of their way to fabricate job satisfaction when it would have been easier for them just to say they were too busy to have someone shadow them in the first place.

 

[surftheiop]

I'm not sure, but I'd think those who work in academia would also be shielded a bit from the drop in Medicare compensation lately. If you really want to see someone who's upset, find a doctor who has a private practice and accepts Medicare.

This may be true, but I do know for a fact that most of the academic peds I've worked with make less than 120K.

 

[morning]

This may be true, but I do know for a fact that most of the academic peds I've worked with make less than 120K.

Peds = Medicaid, not Medicare

Medicaid has always paid even worse than Medicare.

Pediatricians are still pretty happy on the whole, disproving the pre-allo mantra that no one actually willingly makes 100k as a doctor once they've "been in medical school for awhile and seen how medicine really is" or would be satisfied doing so (see also: any thread about physician salaries.)

 

[apumic]

I'm not sure, but I'd think those who work in academia would also be shielded a bit from the drop in Medicare compensation lately. If you really want to see someone who's upset, find a doctor who has a private practice and accepts Medicare.

...or someone who works in a hospital -- CMS and JCAHO have been b*tches lately. Honestly, to hear what they really think, you need to get behind that outer shield (i.e., build a relationship w them over time). Your best bet for doing that is to work alongside them (i.e., as a tech, scribe, etc.) for awhile (like 6-12 mos minimum). You'll start to see what they really think when things don't go according to plan. You'll find out how fun his job is when you're the one fielding the call back from the doc whom the nurse just called at 12am on a Sunday night for some pointless order she only needed due to some stupid hospital policy resulting from the most recent CMS/JCAHO/etc. review or when you're the one delegated to make a call to the doc informing him he is needed at once (on-site) to sign the orders for a restraint in progress in the middle of the night that hospital policy requires written (i.e., not faxed) within the next 60 minutes by the on-call attending for that unit (which is him on this lucky night).

Point being, it's really easy to be positive, upbeat, and enthusiastic when things are going well. Catch them on a hard day when it's more difficult to hide the crap that's going on and you'll see more.

 

[ohgodidonteven]

Simple. You can bitch on the Internet as much as you want and no one knows who you are (most of the time).

 

[apumic]

I find it hard to believe that these people are willing to talk to me about their careers, challenges they face, things they enjoy, thing they don't enjoy and then look me in the eyes and make up some lie about how much they love their job.

Many of these people have known me for much longer than I have been considering medicine and I can trust they would not intentionally mis-lead me. Others I have only know for a short time and I see no reason for them to intentionally go out of their way to fabricate job satisfaction when it would have been easier for them just to say they were too busy to have someone shadow them in the first place.

It's not that they don't love their jobs; it's that you're only getting half the story. Think about it. Would you go telling people all the bad points of your career when they are first considering it? When someone you hardly know (even if they were your doc for the last 10 yrs) asks you "how are ya doing?" do you respond with "good" or with "well... yesterday my girlfriend broke up with me...and the last week I failed my bio test. I'm really p*ssed about that. Man, this week is just the worst ever. My life just really s*cks right now...."? Most people respond w/ a simple "good" or "I'm doing well, thanks." It's the same deal when you ask a doc about his career. Go ask a hundred other professionals if they enjoy what they do. Feign interest in their career and ask how they enjoy being a mechanic, being a schoolteacher, being a professor, being an used car salesman, being part of the clergy, being a bartender, being a firefighter, being a psychologist, being an office supervisor, being a roofer, being a waiter/waitress, etc. See what they tell you. Some of those jobs are ranked as among the most or least satisfying professions but I bet most wouldn't tell you their complaints even though they might be somewhat dissatisfied (now, if they're totally disgruntled and ticked off, maybe...). Go try it.

 

[surftheiop]

It's not that they don't love their jobs; it's that you're only getting half the story. Think about it. Would you go telling people all the bad points of your career when they are first considering it? .

I have asked them and they have told me about their challenges. In one case even had an MD have their spouse talk to me so I could hear what its like "from the other side".

Another one started out grilling me about why I wanted to be an MD, telling me the negatives, etc. Then he just sort of started laughing and said "I always try to be the tough guy and make people prove their interest to me, but who am I kidding, I love my job and have a tough time hiding it"


Anyhow, you all have raised some good points about the fact people probably won't wear their discontent on their sleeve. But I hope maybe this post can be a reminder to some folks that we only hear a small fraction of the MD voices here on SDN.

 

[ent ent]

many of the residents i was shadowing (otolaryngology) were obviously unhappy, but i attribute that to residency itself. the attendings were better but two of them really stood out. one was pediatric and he was a great doctor, it wasn't about the money to him, and i think he loved his job. and the other was more oncology type cases and he had a true passion for it, so it was obvious he loved it too.

being a doctor is still a JOB, so of course there's politics and other crap that makes it just like any other job. it's gonna suck sometimes. but i always think that i would rather spend the rest of my life doing that than some random business desk job somewhere.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

I have asked them and they have told me about their challenges. In one case even had an MD have their spouse talk to me so I could hear what its like "from the other side".

Another one started out grilling me about why I wanted to be an MD, telling me the negatives, etc. Then he just sort of started laughing and said "I always try to be the tough guy and make people prove their interest to me, but who am I kidding, I love my job and have a tough time hiding it"

Anyhow, you all have raised some good points about the fact people probably won't wear their discontent on their sleeve. But I hope maybe this post can be a reminder to some folks that we only hear a small fraction of the MD voices here on SDN.

I would definitely trust the people you shadowed and spoke with. I just can't agree with apumic that they're trying to hide something from you. I see no rational reason why some doctor would want to trick you into entering med school.

As to your original question, the unhappy ones are sitting alone on the Internet tapping away their anger and frustration. Certainly, happy doctors post on these forums too, but I think SDN (and the Internet in general) really gives an outlet to some of the vocal minority who don't like medicine and that's what causes you to see some of the skewed perspective on this site. And newspaper articles are a bit tricky. Certainly a journalist with an agenda can find a couple unhappy doctors to fill in quotes as necessary.

 

[Charles_Carmichael]

I would definitely trust the people you shadowed and spoke with. I just can't agree with apumic that they're trying to hide something from you. I see no rational reason why some doctor would want to trick you into entering med school.

As to your original question, the unhappy ones are sitting alone on the Internet tapping away their anger and frustration. Certainly, happy doctors post on these forums too, but I think SDN (and the Internet in general) really gives an outlet to some of the vocal minority who don't like medicine and that's what causes you to see some of the skewed perspective on this site. And newspaper articles are a bit tricky. Certainly a journalist with an agenda can find a couple unhappy doctors to fill in quotes as necessary.

Eh, I would say that the majority of the physicians I shadowed/talked with during volunteering were pretty unhappy with their jobs. And I would bet my left hand that the last thing most of them do is post on anonymous internet forums. SDN represents only a minute population of physicians out there. The thing to realize, though, is that anecdotes are pretty useless. The plural of anecdote =/= data, so you can't really make an inference out of these experiences to the general physician population.

 

[WNT Signaling]

Mini-hijack/unsolicited advice: take time off before med school. I took two years off, and it was the best thing I ever did: not only did I have time to mature in the real world, I also got to travel a lot, I enjoyed spending two years of my early twenties in a fun city, I published a few papers, and most importantly, it allowed me to evaluate whether I really wanted to go into medicine. When you're in school, the most german thing to do is to just keep going, but taking a break and actually working in the real world full-time gives you perspective on what sort of lifstyle and career you want and how much you are willing to sacrifice to achieve it. This is anecdotal, but I've never met an attending who came to medicine from another career who didn't love their job

 

[WNT Signaling]

As to your original question, the unhappy ones are sitting alone on the Internet tapping away their anger and frustration.

You're talking about everyone in the anesthesiology forum

 

[McBatCommander]

I think those mass ideas of doctors being miserable is just an illusion by the media.

What's that one job where everyone that does is always happy?

 

[surftheiop]

Mini-hijack/unsolicited advice: take time off before med school. I took two years off, and it was the best thing I ever did: not only did I have time to mature in the real world, I also got to travel a lot, I enjoyed spending two years of my early twenties in a fun city, I published a few papers, and most importantly, it allowed me to evaluate whether I really wanted to go into medicine. When you're in school, the most german thing to do is to just keep going, but taking a break and actually working in the real world full-time gives you perspective on what sort of lifstyle and career you want and how much you are willing to sacrifice to achieve it. This is anecdotal, but I've never met an attending who came to medicine from another career who didn't love their job

One summer in the chemical industry was more than enough for me

 

[GoodmanBrown]

Mini-hijack/unsolicited advice: take time off before med school. I took two years off, and it was the best thing I ever did: not only did I have time to mature in the real world, I also got to travel a lot, I enjoyed spending two years of my early twenties in a fun city, I published a few papers, and most importantly, it allowed me to evaluate whether I really wanted to go into medicine. When you're in school, the most german thing to do is to just keep going, but taking a break and actually working in the real world full-time gives you perspective on what sort of lifstyle and career you want and how much you are willing to sacrifice to achieve it. This is anecdotal, but I've never met an attending who came to medicine from another career who didn't love their job

+1

Incidentally, I took 6 years off, but I think it still helped me see that all jobs have pluses and minuses and that doctors overall have a pretty sweet gig going.

 

[GoodmanBrown]

You're talking about everyone in the anesthesiology forum.

I think they're just sidetracked by their future gun purchases.

 

[Onres]

So your always seeing articles in the news about docs being unhappy/dissatisfied, then I found SDN and read all the opinions that medicine is going down the drain and docs don't love their job.

But this is completly contrary to what I have seen over the past couple years of shadowing, volunteering and doing research.

Well over half of the MD's I talk to say they "have the greatest job in the world". For those who are slightly less enthuisastic they say that the job can be tough, but that they never have to wonder if what they do for their career is important and say they couldn't really see themself doing anything else. All of them agree that their is something special about medicine and feel like its an honor to get to be a physician.

Is this just a matter of a few loud angry people casting a cloud over the media? Just a result of living in the South where people are happier? I'm sort of confused because the contrast between what I read and what I see is huge.

I've shadowed doctors, and been to doctors who seem unhappy or at least not fully satisfied with how things may or may not turn out (read: health care reform). Then again, I live in the south, and many around here are conservatives, so that's not surprising, considering that people that have no idea what health care reforms might do complain anyway because they hate Obama, either because he's black or a "dictator" and "socialist" ( I hear this all the time), or both.

But anyway. One doctor told me w/o knowing I'm premed, that he wouldn't recommend med school for anyone because of how uncertain things seem. Another doctor told me that I'm crazy for wanting to go into medicine.

Some are happy, some probably aren't. Isn't that with any career?

People still go through most of the same situations trying to become vets, and the pay off is not even close to that of a doctor.

 

[McBatCommander]

People go through harder trials just for the Olympics. And in that area, chances are way way against you.

 

[morning]

+1

Incidentally, I took 6 years off, but I think it still helped me see that all jobs have pluses and minuses and that doctors overall have a pretty sweet gig going.

Agreed. I worked for 5 years before starting college, worked full-time last year after starting college, and am doing work study this year. It lends a lot of perspective. There are a couple things doctors have against them that other professions tend not to - LONG 24+ hour days and the malpractice climate. I've never had to deal with those and I can't compare anything to them. But besides that, almost everything that is present in medicine is present in other jobs. Abusive coworkers and bosses. Abusive CUSTOMERS. Endless minutiae. Busywork. Deadlines. Byzantine rules. Lack of respect. But doctors at least get job security and health and dental insurance, which is more than a lot of people can say.