Where do you go to school?

[Suncrusher]

I think prestige also matters for med school admissions. The degree that it matters and whether it is worth the 40k+ extra tuition dollars you pay to attend a top 15 University is based on a case by case/individual decision. Med school admissions results at top 15 schools can boast admission rates in the 70-80%s whereas state schools can boast 50% at best. I know that WashU, JHU, Cornell, Duke, and Emory all posts these statistics online (too lazy to find them right now).

Please just be a little more careful with your thinking. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, because prestige probably does play some role in med school admissions that is probably smaller than most people think, but

1. some undergrad universities refuse to write committee letters for applicants they don't think will be successful; those applicants are left out of their admissions stats. So they self-select for a high success rate and it's a complete lie. Probably not the schools you listed, but many others

2. you have to be a top student in the first place to get into washU, JHU, Cornell, Duke, or Emory. Influence of prestige aside, obviously the students who've already gotten screened into those schools will be more likely to be successful in classes and get into med school than a student from a school that is much more lenient in regard to undergrad admissions

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[HH Holmes]

.

 

[Nguyen]

Combined BS/MD program?

Yes.

Agreed. Are you a part of the 6 year BA/MD? I applied late and they eventually invited me to interview in late March. I was like no.

Good choice. I regret doing the six-year BA/MD pathway. You get absolutely no breaks at all (not even summer breaks). I'm not sure if I'm going to retain any knowledge of my chemistry undergrad when they move us over to the medical building this upcoming semester by truman medical center. 4+undergrad/4+MD is the way to go.

 

[HH Holmes]

.

 

[Nguyen]

Lol, I didn't escape the route. I'm in a 7 year at another school. The lack of summers turned me off to it as did Kansas City in general. Good luck though, seems like a rigorous place. So you still take undergrad courses in M1?

lol yeah, Kansas City is boring...but I'm used to it I guess (been living here my entire life). I just got done with my second year (this summer included) and students in my group will move to the school of medicine building this fall.

So you still take undergrad courses in M1?

And no

 

[young2sj]

University of Cincinnati
#156 in the nation.
top 20 public research university

kinda cool..
"Faculty Scholarly Productivity Index by Academic Analytics
(2007, the most recent report available)
Biological sciences No. 2 -- Only Harvard ranked higher."

 

[percy]

Harfart Univer****ty

 

[osprey099]

Please just be a little more careful with your thinking. I'm not saying you're 100% wrong, because prestige probably does play some role in med school admissions that is probably smaller than most people think, but

1. some undergrad universities refuse to write committee letters for applicants they don't think will be successful; those applicants are left out of their admissions stats. So they self-select for a high success rate and it's a complete lie. Probably not the schools you listed, but many others

2. you have to be a top student in the first place to get into washU, JHU, Cornell, Duke, or Emory. Influence of prestige aside, obviously the students who've already gotten screened into those schools will be more likely to be successful in classes and get into med school than a student from a school that is much more lenient in regard to undergrad admissions

I understand what you are saying but I am talking about the "qualified" applicants who utilize the committee process. If you have < 3.2, you are pretty much screwed no matter where you go to undergrad. However, for those >= 3.3, you are not going to be "ushered away" from the committee at your school. In addition, for these applicants with >=3.3, prestige of undergrad probably matters a bit more than what most people give it. After all, you are paying 40-50k more tuition/year to attend these "prestigious" schools. If "prestige" doesn't pay off as well as parents/students would like it, then I would assume that a lot of people will be discouraged from applying to these prestigious UGs. In reality however, applications to these schools are always increasing so prestige has to play an important enough factor for parents to be willing to spend the extra 40-50k/year.

I cannot say for other "prestigious" schools but I go to JHU and the committee here posted aggregate data for med school admissions from 2003-2008 (a little outdated). 85% of applicants who used the committee process and had a >=3.3 cumulative gpa got into at least 1 US allopathic med school. In addition, 90% of applicants who used the committee process and had a >=3.5 cumulative gpa got into at least 1 US allopathic med school. Source is the JHU pre-professional website. Just type "JHU preprofessional advising" on google and search under the "facts&myths" tab for verification.

 

[Epen]

Wayne State :/ it's a school, although sometimes i'm not 100% sure. Anyways, I do not think the prestige of the school is a major factor in medical school admissions. GPA, MCAT score, and a genuine passion for medicine are what make a difference. Don't believe me? Ask your neighborhood physician, chances are he did not go to an ivy league institution for either undergrad or medical school.

Which Wayne State? (Kinda excited to consider there's more than one SDNer from Nebraska)

The Nebraska Wayne State was officially crossed off my list the day they sent a full ride scholarship certificate to me...in the mail...when I had never contacted this school before in my life. Seemed a little desperate to me...

Either way, if you like it, then go for it! I probably would've considered it if I didn't have the money for UNL...

 

[osprey099]

This type of argument could be used to show the wisdom of anything that people keep spending time and money on. Like mutual funds with high operating expenses, the medical effectiveness or prayer, medical effectiveness of homeopathy, medical effectiveness of alternative medicine, the usefulness of jewelry, cars with low gas mileage, bottled water, expensive foods believed to have dubious benefits, performance enhancing beverages that are just sugar and water, et cetera.

I have solid numbers backing up my argument. Although those numbers are only JHU's numbers, I'm sure other "prestigious" schools have similar data. Can an average state school boast the same percentages? I highly doubt it.

 

[ponyo]

2. you have to be a top student in the first place to get into washU, JHU, Cornell, Duke, or Emory. Influence of prestige aside, obviously the students who've already gotten screened into those schools will be more likely to be successful in classes and get into med school than a student from a school that is much more lenient in regard to undergrad admissions

I understand what you are saying but I am talking about the "qualified" applicants who utilize the committee process. If you have < 3.2, you are pretty much screwed no matter where you go to undergrad. However, for those >= 3.3, you are not going to be "ushered away" from the committee at your school. In addition, for these applicants with >=3.3, prestige of undergrad probably matters a bit more than what most people give it. After all, you are paying 40-50k more tuition/year to attend these "prestigious" schools. If "prestige" doesn't pay off as well as parents/students would like it, then I would assume that a lot of people will be discouraged from applying to these prestigious UGs. In reality however, applications to these schools are always increasing so prestige has to play an important enough factor for parents to be willing to spend the extra 40-50k/year.

I cannot say for other "prestigious" schools but I go to JHU and the committee here posted aggregate data for med school admissions from 2003-2008 (a little outdated). 85% of applicants who used the committee process and had a >=3.3 cumulative gpa got into at least 1 US allopathic med school. In addition, 90% of applicants who used the committee process and had a >=3.5 cumulative gpa got into at least 1 US allopathic med school. Source is the JHU pre-professional website. Just type "JHU preprofessional advising" on google and search under the "facts&myths" tab for verification.

My school's stat is that 95% are accepted into one of their top 6 choices, 99% upon reapplication (all candidates must use committee process). But I still believe that it is, for the most part, a question of correlation. First of all, Suncrusher is completely correct in saying that you have to be a top student to get into these schools. But also, in terms of the JHU stat that you cited, I highly doubt that the separation of candidates into those who used the committee process and those who did not was entirely random. This is not a negligible confound, as the choice could indicate differences in personality, conscientiousness, and most of all motivation to thoroughly play by the rules of the admissions process. Plus, in case you didn't do the mental math, 3.3/3.5=94.2 and 85/90=94.4, which actually suggests a linear relationship between GPA and acceptance rate rather than anything of significance with respect to the committee process.

 

[osprey099]

I haven't seen numbers about this for any college. It wouldn't change anything if I did, because I believe that variables other than the college cause the correlation. If the best of the students who currently attend MIT went to the average state school, then I would expect them to outperform the average students who normally go to that state school on med school admissions.

What about a student who goes to MIT vs. a student who got accepted to MIT but chose his state school instead? If their chances at med school are basically equal (both are obviously hard working since they both got into MIT), what motivated the one student to choose MIT over his state school? Certainly no one in their right mind would want to spend 40-50k/year if it doesn't produce a worthy advantage towards his med school endeavors.

My school's stat is that 95% are accepted into one of their top 6 choices, 99% upon reapplication (all candidates must use committee process). But I still believe that it is, for the most part, a question of correlation. First of all, Suncrusher is completely correct in saying that you have to be a top student to get into these schools. But also, in terms of the JHU stat that you cited, I highly doubt that the separation of candidates into those who used the committee process and those who did not was entirely random. This is not a negligible confound, as the choice could indicate differences in personality, conscientiousness, and most of all motivation to thoroughly play by the rules of the admissions process. Plus, in case you didn't do the mental math, 3.3/3.5=94.2 and 85/90=94.4, which actually suggests a linear relationship between GPA and acceptance rate rather than anything of significance with respect to the committee process.

Here are some facts. I am quoting from http://web.jhu.edu/prepro/health/admissions_stats.html

"From 2003-2008, first-time Hopkins applicants with a 3.3 cumulative GPA or greater had more than an 88% chance of being accepted to at least one U.S. allopathic (M.D.) medical school." -----> Basically what I said earlier

"The national percentage of applicants accepted to medical school in 2008 was 45.6%"

"As a whole, Johns Hopkins has one of top 10 largest pools of applicants to medical school nationally. A total of 352 applicants with bachelor’s degrees from Johns Hopkins applied to medical school for 2008. Of these 223 (63%) were accepted to at least one school." ------> Most other prestigious schools can probably boast similar numbers as well.

" Medical schools recognize the rigor of Johns Hopkins. In 2008, Hopkins applicants who were accepted to medical school had an average cumulative GPA of 3.55 and science GPA of 3.48 while the corresponding national figures were 3.66 and 3.60 respectively." -----> Med schools probably also recognize the rigor of other prestigious/top undergrad colleges

"From 2003-2008, the number of applicants to medical school from Hopkins who utilized the committee process has grown from 203 to 295 (45.3% increase). Note: Not all applicants use the Committee process (295 out of 352 for 2008)." -----> ~84% of Hopkins applicants use the committee process..... Maybe the 57 "other" students deserved to be weeded out.

"Even applicants with low GPA also experience considerable success. From 2003-2008, first-time Hopkins applicants with a cumulative GPA below a 3.3 had just under a 50% chance of being accepted to at least one U.S. allopathic medical school." ----> Interesting fact that I did not know & further proof that prestige does matter, to a worthy degree, in med school admissions.

 

[osprey099]

The same one that would show that homeopathy is effective.

While you are entitled to your personal opinion, I have laid down facts supporting that prestige does matter to a worthy extent. Although those quotes only apply to JHU, I'm sure other top schools can say the same for their applicants.

 

[ponyo]

"As a whole, Johns Hopkins has one of top 10 largest pools of applicants to medical school nationally. A total of 352 applicants with bachelor’s degrees from Johns Hopkins applied to medical school for 2008. Of these 223 (63%) were accepted to at least one school." ------> Most other prestigious schools can probably boast similar numbers as well.

Alt. explanation: exactly what we said before. Self-selection of good candidates into the sample.

" Medical schools recognize the rigor of Johns Hopkins. In 2008, Hopkins applicants who were accepted to medical school had an average cumulative GPA of 3.55 and science GPA of 3.48 while the corresponding national figures were 3.66 and 3.60 respectively." -----> Med schools probably also recognize the rigor of other prestigious/top undergrad colleges

Alt. explanation: Hopkins is, as you say, more rigorous than a state school. Therefore, an applicant who might have received a 3.66/3.60 at, say, UMD, receives a 3.55/3.48 at JHU. Med schools recognise this fact and adjust their expectations accordingly. There is no necessary role for JHU being actually better than anywhere else at preparing their candidates.


Honestly, the prestige factor is there, always, but none of this data supports it to any significant extent for medical school admissions.

 

[AestheticMed]

So prestige matters but not major choice? Very interesting/

 

[ponyo]

So prestige matters but not major choice? Very interesting/

I think that for real jobs, prestige is important because it'll get your foot in the door. People might actually read more than 1/2 of your cover letter/resume, which is why the "school name within the first 4 words" rule exists. So an applicant from a less famous university might have the same qualifications but they might never be read.

But for med school apps, that probably matters less because everybody's app gets read. It's not like they'll skip your entire primary just because you "only" went to a state school or a community college.

 

[Life Eternal]

Which Wayne State? (Kinda excited to consider there's more than one SDNer from Nebraska)

The Nebraska Wayne State was officially crossed off my list the day they sent a full ride scholarship certificate to me...in the mail...when I had never contacted this school before in my life. Seemed a little desperate to me...

Either way, if you like it, then go for it! I probably would've considered it if I didn't have the money for UNL...

Seeing that thehabz location is in Detroit, Its Wayne State University.

 

[osprey099]

Alt. explanation: Hopkins is, as you say, more rigorous than a state school. Therefore, an applicant who might have received a 3.66/3.60 at, say, UMD, receives a 3.55/3.48 at JHU. Med schools recognise this fact and adjust their expectations accordingly. There is no necessary role for JHU being actually better than anywhere else at preparing their candidates.


Honestly, the prestige factor is there, always, but none of this data supports it to any significant extent for medical school admissions.

This is exactly what I am trying to emphasize. Is this advantage worth the extra 40-50k/year? Well, that is on a case by case basis. I should have made myself clearer in the beginning. When I say you have an advantage going to a prestigious school vs. a state school, I am implying that a 3.7 at a prestigious school is better than a 3.7 at a state school in terms of med school admissions. Thus, the advantage..

 

[intricateliar]

This is exactly how I feel... I took ochem 2 at my state university and got 100s on exams where the mean was around 50. It was ridiculous b/c for ochem 1 at my own school, I was getting 40s and 50s while the mean was around 70-80.

Prestige is totally useless if you have a sh*tty GPA that's getting trampled by people who studied linear algebra for fun in 8th grade (real story).

I totally feel this way too. I go to the University of Minnesota Twin Cities, and it is a pretty large and competitive school. I did not think my gpa would sink as low as it has and I wish I wasn't so judgmental while choosing what college to go to. I feel like I might have been better off at Winona State or MSU Mankato to be honest (both in Minnesota).

 

[rockafella12]

CO State

 

[thehabz]

Sorry, I did not realize there was another Wayne State. To be more specific, I attend Wayne State University in Detroit, MI. I also received a scholarship to the school and decide to take it over attending another State school, which offered me no support financially.

 

[Morsetlis]

I go to school on an island.

Its prestige is commendable.

 

[Epen]

Seeing that thehabz location is in Detroit, Its Wayne State University.

Sorry, I did not realize there was another Wayne State. To be more specific, I attend Wayne State University in Detroit, MI. I also received a scholarship to the school and decide to take it over attending another State school, which offered me no support financially.

Actually after I read that I did a quick search for Wayne state...There's definitely more than two, that's for sure.

 

[deleted393595]

" Medical schools recognize the rigor of Johns Hopkins. In 2008, Hopkins applicants who were accepted to medical school had an average cumulative GPA of 3.55 and science GPA of 3.48 while the corresponding national figures were 3.66 and 3.60 respectively." -----> Med schools probably also recognize the rigor of other prestigious/top undergrad colleges

"From 2003-2008, the number of applicants to medical school from Hopkins who utilized the committee process has grown from 203 to 295 (45.3% increase). Note: Not all applicants use the Committee process (295 out of 352 for 2008)." -----> ~84% of Hopkins applicants use the committee process..... Maybe the 57 "other" students deserved to be weeded out.

"Even applicants with low GPA also experience considerable success. From 2003-2008, first-time Hopkins applicants with a cumulative GPA below a 3.3 had just under a 50% chance of being accepted to at least one U.S. allopathic medical school." ----> Interesting fact that I did not know & further proof that prestige does matter, to a worthy degree, in med school admissions.

Repeat after me: Correlation does not equal causation.

All those stats show is that Hopkins students with lower GPAs than the national average made it to med school. A possible explanation is that they compensated for their low GPAs by having higher MCAT scores than the national average since they presumably are good test takers, having gotten high enough SAT scores to get into Hopkins.

 

[Morsetlis]

Another possible explanation is that the adcoms gave them an extra 0.20 GPA due to the John Hopkins name.

WHO KNOWS?!

 

[jdok]

.

 

[Narmerguy]

I think we should probably acknowledge that none of us can really know the extent to which prestige matters. That means that we are just as unqualified in stating that it only matters a little as we are in claiming that it matters somewhat more. To be honest, it's probably school dependent so why bother trying to make sweeping statements about it? It's OK for there not to be a concrete answer to everything.

 

[ponyo]

I think we should probably acknowledge that none of us can really know the extent to which prestige matters. That means that we are just as unqualified in stating that it only matters a little as we are in claiming that it matters somewhat more. To be honest, it's probably school dependent so why bother trying to make sweeping statements about it? It's OK for there not to be a concrete answer to everything.

 

[ranson]

I'm pretty sure everyone agrees that where do your undergraduate studies does make a difference, but to what extent isn't very clear.

At several top schools that I know of over 80% of people who apply get accepted to medical school. Also, a student with a 3.3 GPA at a top 15 school wins over a student at a big state school with the same exact GPA, with all else being equal.

 

[fudGez14]

i do think undergrad prestige factors into med school admissions. for example, at princeton, all students who had at least a 3.3 or above got into at least one medical school, as opposed to the national average of 3.6 or so.

and princeton pre-meds have a more than 3x acceptance rate at top 10 med schools, and nearly 1/3 of princeton pre-meds end up at a top 10 medical school.

 

[sha15]

I go to a standard state school, and it will probably get me into med school - which med school? It really doesn't matter

 

[Dbate]

I understand what you are saying but I am talking about the "qualified" applicants who utilize the committee process. If you have < 3.2, you are pretty much screwed no matter where you go to undergrad. However, for those >= 3.3, you are not going to be "ushered away" from the committee at your school. In addition, for these applicants with >=3.3, prestige of undergrad probably matters a bit more than what most people give it. After all, you are paying 40-50k more tuition/year to attend these "prestigious" schools. If "prestige" doesn't pay off as well as parents/students would like it, then I would assume that a lot of people will be discouraged from applying to these prestigious UGs. In reality however, applications to these schools are always increasing so prestige has to play an important enough factor for parents to be willing to spend the extra 40-50k/year.

I cannot say for other "prestigious" schools but I go to JHU and the committee here posted aggregate data for med school admissions from 2003-2008 (a little outdated). 85% of applicants who used the committee process and had a >=3.3 cumulative gpa got into at least 1 US allopathic med school. In addition, 90% of applicants who used the committee process and had a >=3.5 cumulative gpa got into at least 1 US allopathic med school. Source is the JHU pre-professional website. Just type "JHU preprofessional advising" on google and search under the "facts&myths" tab for verification.

I go to Yale and our health careers office publishes stats of students accepted to medical schools across the country. According to their data, our students are accepted to medical schools with GPAs that are .1 lower than the average GPA of all students accepted to the schools. This boost is most noticeable at normal, state affiliated medical schools and decreases at the most prestigious medical schools.

For example, for one of our students to get into Stanford's Med School, he or she would have to have a 3.77 instead the average of 3.8. But at UMDNJ- Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, applicants from Yale with a 3.55 GPA on average are accepted. In contrast to the 3.67 average GPA of the overall student body.

It should be noted, however, that the students accepted with lower GPAs typically have 1 or 2 points higher on the MCAT, than the average MCAT of the medical schools, at which they are accepted. And that our office publishes the GPAs of students accepted aggregated together from 2000-2010, so I chose a school with a high number of applicants from Yale, to more accurately gauge the GPA effect.

Edit: Here is the link to the data, if anyone cared to look. If anything you get only a small boost to your GPA, which sucks balls because I bet I could have at least a 3.7 or higher at my state school than my current 3.56. Sigh . Also, if Yale only gives you a .1 boost in your GPA, I would imagine that lesser prestigious (but still prestigious schools) like JHU, Duke, Cornell, etc would garner an even smaller boost to one's GPA, when applying to medical school

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_stats.pdf

 

[Dbate]

i do think undergrad prestige factors into med school admissions. for example, at princeton, all students who had at least a 3.3 or above got into at least one medical school, as opposed to the national average of 3.6 or so.

and princeton pre-meds have a more than 3x acceptance rate at top 10 med schools, and nearly 1/3 of princeton pre-meds end up at a top 10 medical school.

I don't believe this at all. Unless Princeton kids are dominating the MCAT and other things in a way Yale students are not, it seems highly unlikely that 1/3 of premeds at Princeton eventually attend a top 10 medical school. Because here--from what I have heard and the people I know--that is most certainly not the case.

 

[fudGez14]

I don't believe this at all. Unless Princeton kids are dominating the MCAT and other things in a way Yale students are not, it seems highly unlikely that 1/3 of premeds at Princeton eventually attend a top 10 medical school. Because here--from what I have heard and the people I know--that is most certainly not the case.

http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/#comp00004c791b9f000001c886077c

scroll to "medical school admissions"

"In 2008 and 2009, Princeton students who applied to a Top 10 medical school were offered admission at a rate more than three times the overall admit rates at those schools. Moreover, both before and after the institution of the grading policy, between one-quarter and one-third of the Princetonians going to medical school in any given year have elected to enroll at one of the Top 10 schools."

and they said "elected to enroll", meaning that there are most likely some that got into top 10 but decided on other schools due to a variety of reasons. so its could be even more than 1/3 of students going to top10.

 

[TheMightySmiter]

CO State

So how's FoCo treating you? I can't wait for the Rams to eat it next month against CU. (Sorry, Buffs fan here!)

 

[Dbate]

http://www.princeton.edu/odoc/faculty/grading/faq/#comp00004c791b9f000001c886077c

scroll to "medical school admissions"

"In 2008 and 2009, Princeton students who applied to a Top 10 medical school were offered admission at a rate more than three times the overall admit rates at those schools. Moreover, both before and after the institution of the grading policy, between one-quarter and one-third of the Princetonians going to medical school in any given year have elected to enroll at one of the Top 10 schools."

and they said "elected to enroll", meaning that there are most likely some that got into top 10 but decided on other schools due to a variety of reasons. so its could be even more than 1/3 of students going to top10.

I still find this claim to be dubious, but I have no way of refuting it and thus I will concede the point.

 

[Barcu]

So how's FoCo treating you? I can't wait for the Rams to eat it next month against CU. (Sorry, Buffs fan here!)

 

[deleted393595]

Lol, I didn't escape the route. I'm in a 7 year at another school. The lack of summers turned me off to it as did Kansas City in general. Good luck though, seems like a rigorous place. So you still take undergrad courses in M1?

I'm jelly.

 

[Morsetlis]

Undergraduate was a vacation. What do you need summers for?

 

[FlowRate]

I don't remember where I got this info (it might have been freakonomics), but when controlling for everything but undergrad institution, people at state schools have just about the same (+- forgot how much) overall life success (monetary and otherwise).

 

[Narmerguy]

I don't remember where I got this info (it might have been freakonomics), but when controlling for everything but undergrad institution, people at state schools have just about the same (+- forgot how much) overall life success (monetary and otherwise).

I'm quite suspicious of anyone that claims to be able to do this. Those are quite possibly some of the most challenging things to control.

 

[osprey099]

I go to Yale and our health careers office publishes stats of students accepted to medical schools across the country. According to their data, our students are accepted to medical schools with GPAs that are .1 lower than the average GPA of all students accepted to the schools. This boost is most noticeable at normal, state affiliated medical schools and decreases at the most prestigious medical schools.

For example, for one of our students to get into Stanford's Med School, he or she would have to have a 3.77 instead the average of 3.8. But at UMDNJ- Robert Wood Johnson Medical School, applicants from Yale with a 3.55 GPA on average are accepted. In contrast to the 3.67 average GPA of the overall student body.

It should be noted, however, that the students accepted with lower GPAs typically have 1 or 2 points higher on the MCAT, than the average MCAT of the medical schools, at which they are accepted. And that our office publishes the GPAs of students accepted aggregated together from 2000-2010, so I chose a school with a high number of applicants from Yale, to more accurately gauge the GPA effect.

Edit: Here is the link to the data, if anyone cared to look. If anything you get only a small boost to your GPA, which sucks balls because I bet I could have at least a 3.7 or higher at my state school than my current 3.56. Sigh . Also, if Yale only gives you a .1 boost in your GPA, I would imagine that lesser prestigious (but still prestigious schools) like JHU, Duke, Cornell, etc would garner an even smaller boost to one's GPA, when applying to medical school

http://ucs.yalecollege.yale.edu/sites/default/files/med_school_stats.pdf

That's because Yale doesn't have grade deflation. Schools famously known for grade deflation are Cornell, JHU, WUSTL, and Duke. I would expect that these schools have a >0.1 gpa boost. Possibly even 0.2 boost

 

[MCATerminator]

Applying to medical school coming from Yale is different compared to someone applying from a less-tier university..

 

[Dbate]

0.1 grade points is a smaller boost than I would have expected for Yale.

You're not alone. I was hoping for at least a .15 to .2 boost. Oh well.

 

[Dbate]

I don't remember where I got this info (it might have been freakonomics), but when controlling for everything but undergrad institution, people at state schools have just about the same (+- forgot how much) overall life success (monetary and otherwise).

In actuality there are very few tangible benefits to going to an Ivy League caliber school. In all honest, I feel like people mostly go to Ivy League schools to feel special.

 

[Narmerguy]

In actuality there are very few tangible benefits to going to an Ivy League caliber school. In all honest, I feel like people mostly go to Ivy League schools to feel special.

It can be easy to feel that way as someone considering medical school. However, I assure you that there are very tangible benefits for people pursuing law and business schools...and jobs. The trouble is that people treat Ivy's like they're the best case scenario for everything when that isn't always the case. If you aspire to be an investment banker, then yeah, you should probably go to Harvard or Yale or Stanford. If you want to become a world-renowned musician, that's not going to be the path you should take. In fact, which school you go to could very much depend, in that situation, on which instrument you play.

So sure, if you just lump in the doctors, musicians, lawyers, and businessmen it may all cancel out and seem like going to an Ivy does nothing for you. But that's not really true because each career path has its own nuances and college should not be considered a one-size fits all...which is what it seems we are trying to do here.

 

[Dbate]

It can be easy to feel that way as someone considering medical school. However, I assure you that there are very tangible benefits for people pursuing law and business schools...and jobs. The trouble is that people treat Ivy's like they're the best case scenario for everything when that isn't always the case. If you aspire to be an investment banker, then yeah, you should probably go to Harvard or Yale or Stanford. If you want to become a world-renowned musician, that's not going to be the path you should take. In fact, which school you go to could very much depend, in that situation, on which instrument you play.

So sure, if you just lump in the doctors, musicians, lawyers, and businessmen it may all cancel out and seem like going to an Ivy does nothing for you. But that's not really true because each career path has its own nuances and college should not be considered a one-size fits all...which is what it seems we are trying to do here.

But as you said, since I am going to medical school, those benefits don't apply to me :/

The one (HUGE) benefit that does, though, is the amazing financial aid, which was the only reason I even applied

 

[Morsetlis]

The Ivy League name is icing on the cake that is your academic success. Everybody likes cakes with icing, right?

 

[FlowRate]

I'm quite suspicious of anyone that claims to be able to do this. Those are quite possibly some of the most challenging things to control.

You are of the opinion that it's hard to collect data from two populations where:

Student was accepted to Ivy. (Either attended or turned it down for State)
Students have the same HS GPA, SAT, etc.
Students come from same socioeconomic background.

?

These are things that are commonly controlled for in all sorts of education research.

 

[Narmerguy]

You are of the opinion that it's hard to collect data from two populations where:

Student was accepted to Ivy. (Either attended or turned it down for State)
Students have the same HS GPA, SAT, etc.
Students come from same socioeconomic background.

?

These are things that are commonly controlled for in all sorts of education research.

Intelligence is one of the most important factors that you would need to control for if that study is to mean anything. Intelligence is not measured by SAT, or GPA. But is IQ sufficient? Is anyone even measuring IQ's? We know all the trouble with trying to measure "intelligence." In almost any fashion.

Controlling for GPA cannot be done straight up because: Different schools have different levels of GPA inflation. How can you state that a 3.5 GPA at Princeton is the same as a 3.5 at UNR? They should not be grouped into the same bin. But how much should the difference be? How do you measure effort?

You'd also have to control for time. What about someone that spent 20 hours playing sports and has the same socioeconomic background, GPA, test scores, and goes to the same school as another student that did nothing but study and go to class? That's not at all the same. Now what about someone at Yale that does nothing but classwork, vs. someone at UNC that works 20 hours to pay for class, and spends another 10 hours tutoring but has a 0.1 GPA difference?

What about controlling for the quality of high school education? Perhaps what is making Ivy League schools look so great (or not as bad as they should) is that the students actually go to great high schools. But how do you measure/standardize high school quality? High school quality is not the same as teacher income, median property taxes, or some other proxy. How do we untangle the effects of going to a great school from the effects of going to a great ivy league university?

The worst part, how do you measure effort? How do you measure someone who got a crappy GPA, crappy SAT, gets to college, and decides that it's time to get serious and get a job so their GPA shoots up, their new test scores shoot up. If we had just used high school GPA and SAT scores to "measure" this student, he should not be doing that well, so any jump on his part must be because the college is inadequate or too easy, right? What about the opposite? The valedictorian that just stops giving a **** so though he had a 4.3 in high school, his grades tank to a 2.6. I guess his school must just be really really hard since it was so hard for him to struggle? Grade deflation perhaps? Who knows how to treat those kinds of cases from looking at the stats alone.

Trust me, it is extremely hard to control for the kinds of things that are relevant to that kind of analysis and I'd be suspicious of anyone that claims to have done so.

But as you said, since I am going to medical school, those benefits don't apply to me :/

The one (HUGE) benefit that does, though, is the amazing financial aid, which was the only reason I even applied

Well that's true, but you should be careful of not qualifying your statement to include that then because many posters are now discussing the benefit of an ivy league university at all.