Where this whole mess started...

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coprolalia

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My bolding for emphasis...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print

September 30, 1999
Fannie Mae Eases Credit To Aid Mortgage Lending

By STEVEN A. HOLMES


In a move that could help increase home ownership rates among minorities and low-income consumers, the Fannie Mae Corporation is easing the credit requirements on loans that it will purchase from banks and other lenders.


The action, which will begin as a pilot program involving 24 banks in 15 markets -- including the New York metropolitan region -- will encourage those banks to extend home mortgages to individuals whose credit is generally not good enough to qualify for conventional loans. Fannie Mae officials say they hope to make it a nationwide program by next spring.


Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, has been under increasing pressure from the Clinton Administration to expand mortgage loans among low and moderate income people and felt pressure from stock holders to maintain its phenomenal growth in profits.


In addition, banks, thrift institutions and mortgage companies have been pressing Fannie Mae to help them make more loans to so-called subprime borrowers. These borrowers whose incomes, credit ratings and savings are not good enough to qualify for conventional loans, can only get loans from finance companies that charge much higher interest rates -- anywhere from three to four percentage points higher than conventional loans.


''Fannie Mae has expanded home ownership for millions of families in the 1990's by reducing down payment requirements,'' said Franklin D. Raines, Fannie Mae's chairman and chief executive officer. ''Yet there remain too many borrowers whose credit is just a notch below what our underwriting has required who have been relegated to paying significantly higher mortgage rates in the so-called subprime market.''


Demographic information on these borrowers is sketchy. But at least one study indicates that 18 percent of the loans in the subprime market went to black borrowers, compared to 5 per cent of loans in the conventional loan market.


In moving, even tentatively, into this new area of lending, Fannie Mae is taking on significantly more risk, which may not pose any difficulties during flush economic times. But the government-subsidized corporation may run into trouble in an economic downturn, prompting a government rescue similar to that of the savings and loan industry in the 1980's.


''From the perspective of many people, including me, this is another thrift industry growing up around us,'' said Peter Wallison a resident fellow at the American Enterprise Institute. ''If they fail, the government will have to step up and bail them out the way it stepped up and bailed out the thrift industry.''


Under Fannie Mae's pilot program, consumers who qualify can secure a mortgage with an interest rate one percentage point above that of a conventional, 30-year fixed rate mortgage of less than $240,000 -- a rate that currently averages about 7.76 per cent. If the borrower makes his or her monthly payments on time for two years, the one percentage point premium is dropped.


Fannie Mae, the nation's biggest underwriter of home mortgages, does not lend money directly to consumers. Instead, it purchases loans that banks make on what is called the secondary market. By expanding the type of loans that it will buy, Fannie Mae is hoping to spur banks to make more loans to people with less-than-stellar credit ratings.


Fannie Mae officials stress that the new mortgages will be extended to all potential borrowers who can qualify for a mortgage. But they add that the move is intended in part to increase the number of minority and low income home owners who tend to have worse credit ratings than non-Hispanic whites.


Home ownership has, in fact, exploded among minorities during the economic boom of the 1990's. The number of mortgages extended to Hispanic applicants jumped by 87.2 per cent from 1993 to 1998, according to Harvard University's Joint Center for Housing Studies. During that same period the number of African Americans who got mortgages to buy a home increased by 71.9 per cent and the number of Asian Americans by 46.3 per cent.


In contrast, the number of non-Hispanic whites who received loans for homes increased by 31.2 per cent.


Despite these gains, home ownership rates for minorities continue to lag behind non-Hispanic whites, in part because blacks and Hispanics in particular tend to have on average worse credit ratings.


In July, the Department of Housing and Urban Development proposed that by the year 2001, 50 percent of Fannie Mae's and Freddie Mac's portfolio be made up of loans to low and moderate-income borrowers. Last year, 44 percent of the loans Fannie Mae purchased were from these groups.


The change in policy also comes at the same time that HUD is investigating allegations of racial discrimination in the automated underwriting systems used by Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac to determine the credit-worthiness of credit applicants.


Why should I have to bail these people out?


We are inching closer and closer to a socialist state. Our forefathers are doing cartwheels in their graves.


-copro
 
My bolding for emphasis...

http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpa...0575AC0A96F958260&sec=&spon=&pagewanted=print




Why should I have to bail these people out?


We are inching closer and closer to a socialist state. Our forefathers are doing cartwheels in their graves.


-copro

Dude give me a freakin' break... YOU are not paying for ****... The government money, which wasn't being spent on anything useful ANYWAY, is going to bail out a bunch of greedy bastards who were going after the bottom line, who clearly tried to paint it as an attempt to give minorities a so-called opportunity at home ownership...

Don't pretend like these banks were innocent and weren't taking advantage of individuals who CLEARLY, by previous standards, were given loans that were not appropriate...

You can't blame people for wanting to own a home, but you can blame the worlds most powerful institutions for selling dirty loans...
 
Dude give me a freakin' break... YOU are not paying for ****... The government money, which wasn't being spent on anything useful ANYWAY, is going to bail out a bunch of greedy bastards who were going after the bottom line, who clearly tried to paint it as an attempt to give minorities a so-called opportunity at home ownership...

Don't pretend like these banks were innocent and weren't taking advantage of individuals who CLEARLY, by previous standards, were given loans that were not appropriate...

You can't blame people for wanting to own a home, but you can blame the worlds most powerful institutions for selling dirty loans...

Wrong

It's a two way street. Being fiscally irresponsible makes you just as guilty as the greedy CEO's in this crisis. Ignorance has never been an accetable method of circumventing culpability, and rightly so. Thinking you can afford a house that is clearly beyond your means, just because someone loans you the money is just wreckless.
The general populations lack of respect for money has finally brought the chickens home to roost.
 
Dude give me a freakin' break... YOU are not paying for ****... The government money, which wasn't being spent on anything useful ANYWAY, is going to bail out a bunch of greedy bastards who were going after the bottom line, who clearly tried to paint it as an attempt to give minorities a so-called opportunity at home ownership...

Don't pretend like these banks were innocent and weren't taking advantage of individuals who CLEARLY, by previous standards, were given loans that were not appropriate...

You can't blame people for wanting to own a home, but you can blame the worlds most powerful institutions for selling dirty loans...

Exactly. So, why should my taxes increase to bail them out?

And, when our government got in the insurance business back in the 1940's, we tread our first steps onto a slippery slope.

I blame greedy bankers for posting crappy loans to people who couldn't afford them. I blame the people who took those loans for not keeping up their end of the bargain (that is, they didn't show due diligence before agreeing to sign-up... reflective of their own greed). When are we going to stop rewarding people for being greedy?

I think this is a huge lesson that should be learned by everyone who put themselves in a position to try to scam the system, which happend on both the loaners and the loanees side.

Bring back debtor's prison.

-copro
 
A pertinent and interesting video showing efforts made by republicans to try to avert the problems we face today and as predicted in the article posted by the OP- this stuff comes from 2004. Too bad they didn't make more noise about it at the time. Nevermind the fact that if they had, the deniers in this video would have painted them as racists and trying to hold the poor down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_MGT_cSi7Rs
 
This article explains the crisis pretty well. Interesting mention of people voluntarily seeking to default on mortgages when home value falls below mortgage balances. It's bad enough if some idiot buys more house than he can afford, but seeking foreclosure to get out of your mortgage and passing the cost on to your neighbor is terrible.

http://www.cato.org/pub_display.php?pub_id=9668
 
Exactly. So, why should my taxes increase to bail them out?

And, when our government got in the insurance business back in the 1940's, we tread our first steps onto a slippery slope.

I blame greedy bankers for posting crappy loans to people who couldn't afford them. I blame the people who took those loans for not keeping up their end of the bargain (that is, they didn't show due diligence before agreeing to sign-up... reflective of their own greed). When are we going to stop rewarding people for being greedy?

I think this is a huge lesson that should be learned by everyone who put themselves in a position to try to scam the system, which happend on both the loaners and the loanees side.

Bring back debtor's prison.

-copro

I think your thinking is extremely narrow and extremely overly simplistic. You try to pain the interaction as a transaction between to equal individuals as if they are just two good ol' people making a deal...

Where in reality this is a virtually one-sided deal where the banks set the rules, the laws, and penalties, the interest rate and everything else, over, under and inbetween the lines...

This transactions are extremely complicated and it's understandable how banks and brokers have the upper hand....
 
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Where in reality this is a virtually one-sided deal where the banks set the rules, the laws, and penalties, the interest rate and everything else, over, under and inbetween the lines...

Hey, no one held a gun to their head and made them take the loan. Their own greed did.

I don't know about you, but my parents raised me to believe in the old adage: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

We used to live by the caveat emptor principle in this country. Now, we live essentially in a socialist state where the government is in the insurance business. We bail all kinds of people out of their own stupidity. This is just a colossal example of it.

Caveat emptor. Learn it. Live by it. I do. I don't expect any handouts. Never have, never will. But, it certainly pisses me off when other people reach into my pocket to pay for someone else's mistakes.

Debtor's prison. Dakota, I'd much rather have my tax dollars going towards that. And, I'm sure as hell we teach a lot of people a big lesson for far less than $1.2 trillion dollars (and, trust me, that's only the tip of the iceberg. This crap is far from over - even with the bailout - not by a long shot. If they take this, no reason to think they don't have the right to take more later.... let the chips fall where they may, I say. It'll be a really loud, cold wake-up call for a lot of people. Things will change drastically. And, that's not a bad thing. This country needs a huge enema right now.)

-copro
 
Hey, no one held a gun to their head and made them take the loan. Their own greed did.

I don't know about you, but my parents raised me to believe in the old adage: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

We used to live by the caveat emptor principle in this country. Now, we live essentially in a socialist state where the government is in the insurance business. We bail all kinds of people out of their own stupidity. This is just a colossal example of it.

Caveat emptor. Learn it. Live by it. I do. I don't expect any handouts. Never have, never will. But, it certainly pisses me off when other people reach into my pocket to pay for someone else's mistakes.

Debtor's prison. Dakota, I'd much rather have my tax dollars going towards that. And, I'm sure as hell we teach a lot of people a big lesson for far less than $1.2 trillion dollars (and, trust me, that's only the tip of the iceberg. This crap is far from over - even with the bailout - not by a long shot. If they take this, no reason to think they don't have the right to take more later.... let the chips fall where they may, I say. It'll be a really loud, cold wake-up call for a lot of people. Things will change drastically. And, that's not a bad thing. This country needs a huge enema right now.)

-copro


Greed??? You think the thousands of people who are in such troubled situations were being GREEDY when they bought homes????

That's a nice warm blanket statement.... I'm not sure how you came to that BROAD conclusion....
 
Hey, no one held a gun to their head and made them take the loan. Their own greed did.

I don't know about you, but my parents raised me to believe in the old adage: "If it sounds too good to be true, it probably is."

We used to live by the caveat emptor principle in this country. Now, we live essentially in a socialist state where the government is in the insurance business. We bail all kinds of people out of their own stupidity. This is just a colossal example of it.

Caveat emptor. Learn it. Live by it. I do. I don't expect any handouts. Never have, never will. But, it certainly pisses me off when other people reach into my pocket to pay for someone else's mistakes.

Debtor's prison. Dakota, I'd much rather have my tax dollars going towards that. And, I'm sure as hell we teach a lot of people a big lesson for far less than $1.2 trillion dollars (and, trust me, that's only the tip of the iceberg. This crap is far from over - even with the bailout - not by a long shot. If they take this, no reason to think they don't have the right to take more later.... let the chips fall where they may, I say. It'll be a really loud, cold wake-up call for a lot of people. Things will change drastically. And, that's not a bad thing. This country needs a huge enema right now.)

-copro


The following is part of a speech by president Bush in 2002, I suggest you read it a few times:


One of the things that we've got to do is to address problems straight on and deal with them in a way that helps us meet goals. And so I want to talk about a couple of goals and -- one goal and a problem.
The goal is, everybody who wants to own a home has got a shot at doing so. The problem is we have what we call a homeownership gap in America. Three-quarters of Anglos own their homes, and yet less than 50 percent of African Americans and Hispanics own homes. That ownership gap signals that something might be wrong in the land of plenty. And we need to do something about it.
We are here in Washington, D.C. to address problems. So I've set this goal for the country. We want 5.5 million more homeowners by 2010 -- million more minority homeowners by 2010. (Applause.) Five-and-a-half million families by 2010 will own a home. That is our goal. It is a realistic goal. But it's going to mean we're going to have to work hard to achieve the goal, all of us. And by all of us, I mean not only the federal government, but the private sector, as well.
And so I want to, one, encourage you to do everything you can to work in a realistic, smart way to get this done. I repeat, we're here for a reason. And part of the reason is to make this dream extend everywhere.
I'm going to do my part by setting the goal, by reminding people of the goal, by heralding the goal, and by calling people into action, both the federal level, state level, local level, and in the private sector. (Applause.) And so what are the barriers that we can deal with here in Washington? Well, probably the single barrier to first-time homeownership is high down payments. People take a look at the down payment, they say that's too high, I'm not buying. They may have the desire to buy, but they don't have the wherewithal to handle the down payment. We can deal with that. And so I've asked Congress to fully fund an American Dream down payment fund which will help a low-income family to qualify to buy, to buy. (Applause.)

Here is the link to the full speech:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2002/06/20020618-1.html

Many people just did what the president said, isn't that the patriotic thing to do??
 
I am glad this crisis happened.

Our country will learn not to lend homes to people who can't afford it.

This period will last for many years. And then, some idiot in the future will make the same mistake!!!!!

I DONOT TRUST WASHINGTON WITH MY MONEY!!!!!!!

I have lots of student loans. Maybe someone can bail me out!!!!
 
I think your thinking is extremely narrow and extremely overly simplistic. You try to pain the interaction as a transaction between to equal individuals as if they are just two good ol' people making a deal...

Where in reality this is a virtually one-sided deal where the banks set the rules, the laws, and penalties, the interest rate and everything else, over, under and inbetween the lines...

This transactions are extremely complicated and it's understandable how banks and brokers have the upper hand....

The transactions are not complicated unless you've got an extra chromosome. There really are only two (count 'em, two) things that someone needs to know to avoid foreclosure: the rate on the loan (ie, monthly payment), and whether or not the rate is adjustable (ie, if the monthly payment will change). If you're too stupid to understand these two most basic details of a loan, you shouldn't be allowed to handle scissors and paste much less buy a house.

People saw real estate prices skyrocketing, and they wanted in on a get rich quick scheme. They saw their idiot friends luck into $50K or $100K profits in a few short years, and they wanted BMWs and plasma TVs too.

They weren't buying places to live - they thought they were investing in a guaranteed winner. I have no sympathy for INVESTORS who made bold, risky INVESTMENTS with money they didn't have, and I'm disgusted that their bad judgment has led to this need for our government to step in to socialize their losses.

Greed??? You think the thousands of people who are in such troubled situations were being GREEDY when they bought homes????

They wanted something they couldn't afford so desperately that they "bought" it anyway. And by "bought" I mean signed contracts for adjustable rate mortgages, thinking that when the rates adjusted, they'd have the pleasant options of (a) sell at a HUGE profit 'cause real estate only goes up, (b) refinance into another ARM cashing out equity and living like kings (c) ok, be honest, they never got to option (c) because options (a) and (b) were all their greed let them see.

At best, they were talked into believing what they wanted to believe. They're still *****s, and those of us who chose to live within our means are paying for it.

About two years ago I briefly worked with someone who would not shut up about how great a deal his mortgage was. It was an interest-only negative-amortization loan on a large house near San Diego. It was his intent to flip the place in a couple years and he actually said "property values only go up around San Diego because everyone wants to live there." He's got to be at least $100K underwater by now, assuming he didn't just mail the keys to the bank.

Greed or stupidity. Take your pick. $700 billion is just the start. We'll pay for it in higher taxes, and we'll pay again through inflation. So-called predatory lenders aren't totally blameless. But I'm supposed to pity the clowns who gambled and lost?
 
Dude give me a freakin' break... YOU are not paying for ****... The government money, which wasn't being spent on anything useful ANYWAY,


If the 700 Billion bailout is approved, 2 or 3 yrs from now taxes will increase to pay for it. I'm currently only keeping 50% of my salary. If taxes keep going up I might get to keep 40%. All tax payers are paying for it. You obviously don't know much about economics.
 
Although people who bought houses they could not afford were not very smart, we should not forget that the current administration wanted them to do exactly that, they wanted people to buy houses regardless of their actual ability to own these houses.
Most people are driven by greed and that's human nature, the job of the government is to protect citizens from con artists who want to sell them dreams (in this case the American dream), in this particular case the government actually encouraged people to make these stupid investments and made them believe that there will be no consequences, the con artists worked hand in hand with the decision makers to get people to invest in over valued real estate and create the current crisis.
The funny thing is that the same people who created the problem are now claiming to have the solution.
 
People are stupid (who would have thought 🙄). The mofos on wall street have been making a killing the last decade buying repackaging and selling worthless loans and now we have to bail they're asses out of the mess they created? that's too rich 😡
 
"I want to get my hands around the throats Christopher Cox, head of the SEC (who turned a blind eye to everything, including rampant naked shorting), Barney Frank of the House and Christopher Dodd of the Senate who had the responsibility, opportunity and authority to keep this kind of leveraged crap from happening, and, of course, Alan Greenspan, the foul bastard who, in the final analysis, did this to us.

My teeth are clenching so hard that I cannot go on, so I will turn this rant about Alan Greenspan over to Bill Fleckenstein who, in his Daily Rap newsletter, writes, "After the dust settles and people want to learn how all this dislocation became possible, let's hope that blame is placed squarely on the shoulders of Alan Greenspan (and the Fed) - for his irresponsible monetary policies, his refusal to stop bubbles that were obvious to see (because he felt he could clean up the aftermath), and his unflinching support for financial deregulation and securitization."

But as it takes "two to tango", then it is appropriate that he also mention, "Of course, the greed, carelessness, and stupidity on Wall Street were also contributors to the mess, as were the homeowners who willingly suspended disbelief."

But the ultimate guilty party is, again, Greenspan himself, as, "without the financial nuclear weapons unleashed by Greenspan's policies, none of this tremendous turmoil would have been possible."

But then again, the tremendous gains in gold and silver that are coming would not be possible either! Making money from the stupidity of others! Whee! This investing stuff is easy!"

Richard Daughty
 
Many people just did what the president said, isn't that the patriotic thing to do??

Apples and oranges.

The downpayment fund was to go to affordable housing for underprivliged. What the Clinton plan proposed was relaxing credit requirements for otherwise out-of-reach loans for people.

What happened was a structure of no (or low) money down loans, resulting in "interest only" payments for the first arm (usually five years) of the loan. The result? You have a bunch of people who were over-extended and have not been able to keep up with the payment once the first five-year arm expired. Likewise, people had been paying only the interest, and this resulted in the accumulation of zero equity in the property they bought.

Don't mistake this. Many people were trying to ride the housing bubble. Their plan was to buy more house than they could afford, not simply get into a house, and sell on a market up turn (which did happen for a while) with a big cash out in profit.

This is okay provided the market doesn't dry up or stay falsely inflated like it has been. You had people buying a house, holding onto it for a couple of years, and then expecting to sell at at 20-30% profit.

I don't know about you, but I don't feel that this is a prudent investment strategy. Long-term equity is what builds wealth, not cheapskate loans with no investment into the principal and grandiose plans to make a quick buck and move into something bigger.

The only explanation for this is greed, both on the part of the people making these loans as well as those who agreed to the terms of them.

I ask you again: Why should I have to be resposible for someone else's failed "make a quick buck" strategy?

-copro
 
Apples and oranges.

The downpayment fund was to go to affordable housing for underprivliged. What the Clinton plan proposed was relaxing credit requirements for otherwise out-of-reach loans for people.

What happened was a structure of no (or low) money down loans, resulting in "interest only" payments for the first arm (usually five years) of the loan. The result? You have a bunch of people who were over-extended and have not been able to keep up with the payment once the first five-year arm expired. Likewise, people had been paying only the interest, and this resulted in the accumulation of zero equity in the property they bought.

Don't mistake this. Many people were trying to ride the housing bubble. Their plan was to buy more house than they could afford, not simply get into a house, and sell on a market up turn (which did happen for a while) with a big cash out in profit.

This is okay provided the market doesn't dry up or stay falsely inflated like it has been. You had people buying a house, holding onto it for a couple of years, and then expecting to sell at at 20-30% profit.

I don't know about you, but I don't feel that this is a prudent investment strategy. Long-term equity is what builds wealth, not cheapskate loans with no investment into the principal and grandiose plans to make a quick buck and move into something bigger.

The only explanation for this is greed, both on the part of the people making these loans as well as those who agreed to the terms of them.

I ask you again: Why should I have to be resposible for someone else's failed "make a quick buck" strategy?

-copro
Man, the president said in the speech I mentioned above that he wanted 5.5 Million new home owners by 2012 and he ended his speech by saying Buy, Buy!
All that these people did is respond to their president's call.
Can you blame them???
 
Man, the president said in the speech I mentioned above that he wanted 5.5 Million new home owners by 2012 and he ended his speech by saying Buy, Buy!
All that these people did is respond to their president's call.
Can you blame them???

I have to disagree with you here.

Odds are that well over half of the people who borrowed beyond their means belong to the ~50% of the population who voted against Bush in 2000 and 2004. They wouldn't brush their teeth if Bush told them to do it, much less buy a house.

If any one person is responsible for creating and sustaining the conditions that led to this fiasco, it's Greenspan. He spent 20 years as chair of the Federal Reserve. He was appointed by Reagan, reappointed by Bush the elder, reappointed by Clinton (twice), and reappointed by Bush the junior. During that time the majority in Congress changed a number of times. This is not one party's fault.

In early 2006 a guy I worked with had just bought a house near San Diego with a negative amortization ARM (ie, he was to pay less than interest for a few years). He was absolutely convinced this was a brilliant plan because - and this is as near a quote as I can remember - "everyone wants to live in California and especially San Diego so real estate never goes down." I told him about the two houses my parents bought in Arizona in 1986 and how they spent almost 10 years underwater. "That's different." He was a smart guy but he wanted to believe the fairy tale was true. He made a large bet on the market, he gambled, and he lost. For all I know he's still losing - that house he bought is probably down over $100K right now.

People who earn $40K/year don't buy $500K houses with stated-income I/O ARMs because the president says being a homeowner is neat. They do it because they think it will make them rich, soon, and they want that Mercedes.

Lots of things are Bush's fault, but not this.
 
Man, the president said in the speech I mentioned above that he wanted 5.5 Million new home owners by 2012 and he ended his speech by saying Buy, Buy!
All that these people did is respond to their president's call.
Can you blame them???

Plank,

That was a $200 million program. We are talking now about a $1.2 trillion problem.

$200 million = $200,000,000

$1.2 trillion = $1,200,000,000,000

Most people have to pay 1/10th of the cost of their home as a down payment, maybe 1/20th with huge down-payment incentives like the American Dream program. If you're going to blame that program, it requires a conversion factor of 6,000:1 in dollar-to-dollar comparison in order to get where we are now. In other words, for a $150,000 house, the person buying that house would only have had to make a $25 dollar down payment to get the keys.

Your counter-argument simply does not hold up to basic math as a way to explain this problem. What's worse is that we've only hit the tip of the iceberg on this.

-copro
 
I ask you again: Why should I have to be resposible for someone else's failed "make a quick buck" strategy?

You shouldn't, and neither should I or anyone else who lived within their means while others signed ARMs and cashed out bubble equity and spent it on $600 barbecues and boats and swimming pools (like the ******s whose house I bought and live in now).

The argument though - and you can certainly question the merit of this argument - is that the bailout isn't for them, or even the mortgage brokers and lenders who profited from hooking gullible borrowers on one side and gullible investors on the other. It's that all of these shortsighted greedy *****s have done so much damage that the economy as a whole is at risk.

Yes, those greedy *****s screwed you and me. The damage is done though, and will probably mount. I don't think we've seen the end of the ominous revelations. But the money is gone and it can't be recovered. The relevant question today is whether or not a government bailout can prevent the damage from spreading.

Even though it's nice to have the job security of a doctor, we're not immune to the overall economy's ills. You and I won't be doing much elective surgery on privately insured middle class people if 2015 America is a nation one-third ill-fed, ill-clothed, ill-housed. If we end up inflating the dollar because of the weight of all our debt, that inflation will hurt you and me.

What's happening to the United States now happened to Japan, and they floundered around in recession for a long time. I'm not an expert on the subject, but there are those who argue that if Japan's government had done what this bailout proposed to do, their economy would have recovered much more quickly.

I'm not defending the ass clowns who lent or borrowed the money, but this mess has gone beyond mortgages for poor people. The bailout may or may not be good for the United States in the long run, but it's a mistake to think it's about helping the people who sailed us over the waterfall.
 
I'm not defending the ass clowns who lent or borrowed the money, but this mess has gone beyond mortgages for poor people.

It was never about "mortgages for poor people." It was about people who took advantage of those incentives to create a "get rich quick" scheme.

And, I'm not disagreeing with your assessment. I'm saying, instead, let the chips fall where they may. It will be a huge, bitter pill for everyone to swallow. But, maybe people will learn a lesson. Everyone. Don't led greed supervene. Live well, within your means. Live well-within your means.

It's time we put an end to our debt-drunk, credit-surfeit culture. And, maybe some people need to spend a little time in the poor house (i.e., cramped apartment) on skid row to realize that. I assure you they'll learn quickly to be a lot more careful with their money. I promise you they won't learn to be more careful if they use mine.

It starts with cutting holes in the golden parachutes.

-copro
 
Man, the president said in the speech I mentioned above that he wanted 5.5 Million new home owners by 2012 and he ended his speech by saying Buy, Buy!
All that these people did is respond to their president's call.
Can you blame them???

From the article that you posted above you can find that this American Dream program was to help 40000 people per year with down payments. So, what, by 2010 that would have been about 1/4 million? Go back and start reading right after the part that you quoted in red- in fact, its the next paragraph. Searching the name of the program will provide you with HUD info that claims the same thing.

Now you tell me, since you are obviously an expert on the subject- how many people each year actually received the benefit from this American Dream program?? May not have even made its goal of 40k/yr.
 
I just don't see how a bail-out holds those individuals responsible for it personally accountable for this fiasco. Letting them default on their mortgages does. Going after those who made the bad loans does.

Otherwise, if someone can explain to me how a hastily drawn together bail-out accomplishes this, I'm happy to listen.

-copro
 
I don't really like the idea of bailing them out all that well myself, but I understand that if something isn't done, there will be a domino effect through the economy. I think that this bailout thing won't solve it, but rather dampen the effects, at best.

Here is some interesting reading that gives some history on how/why we are where we are today. It isn't Bush's fault. Hell, this all dates back to Carter and changes Clinton made. I realilze wikipedia isn't the best source, but other sources will have similar info. There are a lot of people guilty in this mess, but to try to pin it on Bush is laughable.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_Reinvestment_Act
 
Do you all realize what that $700 Billion blank check passed today amounts to?

I'll tell you.

That's a $32,000 bill handed to every American in the U.S.

Think about that for a moment.

-copro
 
Do you all realize what that $700 Billion blank check passed today amounts to?

I'll tell you.

That's a $32,000 bill handed to every American in the U.S.

Think about that for a moment.

-copro

Well, using my calculator and assuming 300 million people, I get $2333.
 
There are many people responsible. First the people who borrowed irresponsibly, frequently lying on their applications. Next the people who gave them the loans who knew or should have known that they couldn't pay them back, they gave them because they planned to sell them off right away. Next the people who packaged this trash as bonds knowing they were trash. Next the people who peddled this trash to investors. Next the people who rated these trashy bonds. Next the people who insured these trashy bonds who wrote more insurance than they could possibly cover. Congress who failed to adequately regulate the industry and the federal reserve who kept interest rates too low too long. Probably others too. There was dishonesty and/or incompetence at every level of this process. Frequently by the most educated and most well paid people in the country.

Really the idiots were the people who took out loans they couldn't afford without bothering to see if they could afford it.

People who took out interest only loans and the lenders offering all these loans weren't stupid or incompetent or anything, and the bundled mortgages weren't trash at all. They were really valuable investments that were almost certain to make money. Defaulting on mortgages isn't even really the problem, except in that they contribute to falling home prices if they occur in large numbers.

The lenders thought they could give out $1,000,000 loans on $1,000,000 houses to people whether they could afford them or not. They expected, reasonably really, that 1 of two things would happen, the idiots and gamblers taking out excessive loans would either sell at a profit after the interest only period ran out and pay off the loan (everybody wins) or they would default and the bank could sell the house for a profit (bank still wins).

They weren't stupid, and they had an almost guaranteed way of making big money. The only way they could lose is if home prices fell and they would be stuck taking a loss after foreclosing on a property. Luckily for the lenders home prices 'never' fall. Bundling mortgages from across the country made it even safer since home prices fall nationwide even less often than locally. Never happened though and an ingenious plan backfired.

Stabilize the economy-yes, free up money for future lending-sure, but I don't want to pay $200,000 to make someone happier with their $800,000 home that they bought for $1,000,000. Plans to have me pay to keep people in "their" homes that are really owned by the bank are f ed up. Rewarding failure is just the worst position a government can take. I know that's the democrats raison d'etre, but I'm surprised at the degree of bi-partisan support for this garbage.
 
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I will agree with a lot of posts that Fannie, Freddie and the other f#ckfaces gambled with money they never had. I guess these banking institutions thought they could make money out of thin air, which is interest, which never ever made sense to me when there is no value being added to our economy to make those interest dollars show up. What did everyone expect when somebody tries to make 500 dollars into 700 or whatever without doing anything except being a middleman?

THE SAME GOES FOR THE COMMON AMERICAN. He/she thought that he/she could live the mythical American dream. These people bought something they could not handle and thus joined in the clusterf#ck caused by banking institutions. Yes, it can be a CEOs fault, but don't ignore that the common man is also responsible just because it may sound "elitist."

The 90s and early 2000s saw a housing bubble. All of us were just gambling with credit. And now we suffer for it. All of us who were unresponsible. It's not Bush's fault, but since he is a ***** and linked to the war, it's just easier for the common failure in this country to shift blame. That's all it is. So when you see your Democrat friends who support poor folks getting more responsibilities and doing dumb stuff like trying to live a dream literally, point out who were the accomplices in this mess.

Ignorance doesn't mean you're not responsible regardless if you are Black, Hispanic, poor, rich, whatever. WE NEED to go back to a GOLD standard.
 
WE NEED to go back to a GOLD standard.

Yes, yes, yes!

And, we also need to rein in the amount of credit we extend to people via credit card companies, another huge problem that is soon going to cause its own separate meltdown. Mark my words.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/view/

(Although, the housing debt problem is much, much bigger by comparison. This will be just another problem that's going to take money out of your pocket. How do you think a lot of Americans are filling up those big gas tanks on those gas guzzling SUVs? This housing bail out has set the precedent. No one is going to individually feel responsible for their own stupid financial decisions anymore.)

-copro
 
Yes, yes, yes!

And, we also need to rein in the amount of credit we extend to people via credit card companies, another huge problem that is soon going to cause its own separate meltdown. Mark my words.

http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/shows/credit/view/

(Although, the housing debt problem is much, much bigger by comparison. This will be just another problem that's going to take money out of your pocket. How do you think a lot of Americans are filling up those big gas tanks on those gas guzzling SUVs? This housing bail out has set the precedent. No one is going to individually feel responsible for their own stupid financial decisions anymore.)

-copro

But I was under the impression that you love deregulated free markets. How are "we" supposed to reign in the actions of profit-centric credit-lending corporations, if the government is to keep its hands off markets?

There's no dispute that there are homeowners who should have put more planning into the situation before taking out a loan. But there are companies that, besides aggressively pushing these loans, committed outright fradulent practices (e.g. manipulating numbers to reduce down payments) in being able to provide them. It's not good when lesser-educated, low-income lendees meet aggressive, fraudulent lenders with a lot of credit to hand out. I put more blame on the lenders than the lendees, but the most blame on free markets with little oversight.
 
But I was under the impression that you love deregulated free markets. How are "we" supposed to reign in the actions of profit-centric credit-lending corporations, if the government is to keep its hands off markets?

There's no dispute that there are homeowners who should have put more planning into the situation before taking out a loan. But there are companies that, besides aggressively pushing these loans, committed outright fradulent practices (e.g. manipulating numbers to reduce down payments) in being able to provide them. It's not good when lesser-educated, low-income lendees meet aggressive, fraudulent lenders with a lot of credit to hand out. I put more blame on the lenders than the lendees, but the most blame on free markets with little oversight.

Those weren't free markets. They were pushed by the federal government so that a few democratic senators could buy votes with their interference in the free market on behalf of unqualified borrowers. It increased black home 'ownership' though, so it was tough to argue against without being demonized. What a government...
 
And now we get at the root of the problem.

People are borrowing way over their heads. Especially poor people who do not understand the meaning of the word "poor".

I am in a state where there are tons of poor people. But what do i see when i am driving around. TONS OF LUXURY CARS ON THE ROADS. My salary is in the top 2-3% and i am driving a 10 yr old car.

Now i am not a genius or anything. BUT WHERE ARE ALL THESE PEOPLE GETTING MONEY TO BUY THESE EXPENSIVE ITEMS.

I KNOW. THEY DON'T HAVE ANY MONEY.

I CAN'T WAIT TILL THE CREDIT CARD COMPAINES TANK.

THAT'S COMING NEXT. PEOPLE ALREADY DON'T HAVE MONEY IN THEIR HOUSES (THEY BORROWED AGAINST IT) AND NOW THEY WILL BE IN DEBT FOREVER.

BUT DON'T WORRY. The democrats are here for the rescue. They will ease bankruptcy and will let all of these weasels get off the hook on my hard earned tax dollars.
 
But I was under the impression that you love deregulated free markets. How are "we" supposed to reign in the actions of profit-centric credit-lending corporations, if the government is to keep its hands off markets?

Well, first, I never said that. I think deregulation has caused more problems than it's solved. Look at Enron as the prime example.

I'm all about carrot-and-stick. And, for that, I think you need government oversight.

I think structured bonuses are one of the many ways for employers to attempt to hide what they are really paying executives. All you have to do is look at a 10K (which most people don't) to see what principals are really getting.

I'm all for taxing bonuses at a separate, higher rate. I'm also for longterm contingencies on those bonuses (e.g., they have to give the money back if the company subsequently fails). Huge bonuses mean that companies are overcharging for whatever product they are offering, whether it's health insurance or groceries or widgets...

I actually like the "not-for-profit" model of business, not rampant free markets. We went through the laissez faire phase of this country in the early 20th century (something I've talked about before on this forum) and you ended-up with Rockefellers and Waltons and a bunch of other people who were rewarded well beyond their actual contribution to society invoking many cutthroat, predatory, deceptive business practices. Monopolies and oligopolies will drive up prices. There need to be rules and regulations mandating what are fair rules of engagement. Otherwise, even a cost-effective upstart will get squeezed out of the game.

Having said that, free market tends to make for more innovation and better products available at better prices. Government's role is to incentivize and protect small business from the behemoth predators. If that involves some sort of regulation to prevent the powerful few from dictating the market, then I'm all for it.

So, don't get my position wrong. I'm firmly against the "Wal-Mart-ing" of America.

There's no dispute that there are homeowners who should have put more planning into the situation before taking out a loan. But there are companies that, besides aggressively pushing these loans, committed outright fradulent practices (e.g. manipulating numbers to reduce down payments) in being able to provide them. It's not good when lesser-educated, low-income lendees meet aggressive, fraudulent lenders with a lot of credit to hand out. I put more blame on the lenders than the lendees, but the most blame on free markets with little oversight.

Agreed. But, I probably put a little more equal blame on the the lendees. They were greedy. And, when you overstep your own ability to safely manage anything, you're eventually going to get burned.

What I have a problem with is, essentially, absolving the players in the ordeal by bailing them out. More carrot, no stick. And, I have a huge problem with the government being what is tantamount to an insurance company. Sure, they're supposed to insure some things (that is, protecting the common good, providing safe borders, ensuring "fair play" in the open market, etc.), but they should not be there to continually bail out the mistakes of the free market.

Carrot and stick. You make it clear that, when something is not adding up financially or logically, you enact steps to make those people engaging in that behavior personally accountable if it fails. Not saying "don't" engage in the behavior, but definitely saying that you will be responsible for the outcome. We just don't have that now. We have all risk and no consequence. And, this housing bubble is something that people have been talking about for the past several years. Everyone knew it was going to burst eventually. Why no one did anything about it, starting with Clinton, is beyond me.

We'll survive this. But, it's going to be painful. We need more rules - not re-regulation necessarily - but a clear set of guidelines that says if you put your pen to paper and sign your name, it means something. And, if that's something like debtor's prison (a very big stick), then I'm all for it. I assure you that many people will think twice before they engage in such risky practices - especially those issuing the loans, which are usually otherwise intelligent and educated people who got blinded by their own greed... and no foresesable downside to acting on that greed.

-copro
 
It's funny to see people talking about free market and at the same time asking for more government regulations!
If everything is working then it is thanks to the free market and no government involvement, but when **** hits the fan it is the government's fault and they need to fix it!
I think a new breed is emerging, they should be called the socialist republicans or in layman terms: the confused.
 
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It's funny to see people talking about free market and at the same time asking for more government regulations!

No, it's about accountability. There is no such thing as a "free market". If you have a completely free market, you end-up with monopolies. I have never been or stood for monopolizing anything.

Look at Standard Oil as the prime example of a free market run amok.

-copro
 
Yes, yes, yes!

And, we also need to rein in the amount of credit we extend to people via credit card companies, another huge problem that is soon going to cause its own separate meltdown. Mark my words.

Mortgages and the securities derived from them over the last few years amount to a pyramid scheme, destined to collapse. I wonder if credit cards are different enough -
  • I don't think credit card debt is packaged and resold the way mortgages are/were (though I'm not sure about this).
  • Banks have always been willing to negotiate different payment plans with people who are struggling to pay their credit card debt.
  • The $ amounts are smaller - families with $300K mortgages are common; families with 1/10th that in credit card debt owe 4x the national average.
  • The minimum payment (usually not much more than interest) is usually manageable, even for relatively large debts, provided the borrower is employed. With mortgages, resetting ARMs and expiring I/O periods have driven the majority of foreclosures. Credit card lenders are delighted to accept interest-only payments in perpetuity ... it's their business model.
  • It's debt that's not tied to a volatile real asset, so there's no potential for a bubble to escalate the problem and drop it off a cliff. It's unsecured debt and this extra risk may be accounted for by the interest rates they charge (literally 4-6x higher than mortgages).
  • Credit card limits are at least set by the lender based on some kind of objective risk analysis (ie, not whatever the "market" and a crooked appraiser says a house is worth) ....
I'm not saying you're wrong, you're probably right. Our debt-driven economy can't possibly be sustainable the way it is. I just suspect that the credit card monster might be a different enough house of cards that it'll have to collapse in its own unique way - and perhaps it'll do so a lot less violently than what we're seeing now.
 
Sorry for mischaracterizing your position, copro. Although as someone on the left I'm sure I'd disagree with you on just how strong of a role government should have in economic matters, I agree with much in your last post.
 
Don't you guys realize, the bailout isn't about homeowners or mortage companies. Sure they caused this all but thats not what the bailout is intended for. The bailout is there for business both small and large that need money for various things like payroll and merchandise. A byproduct of the mortgage crisis is that the banks don't have enough money to loan out to meet the demands of various businesses. Thats why the bailout was necessary. By infusing this money into the market, they can free up some credit and get the system working again. W/out it there are massive layoffs and business bankrupcies which would further hurt our economy. As others have said, some amount of govn't manipulation of the market is needed but too mcuh is bad thing.
 
Though this thread seems to be dying out, I'd like to throw out there that the crisis we're in right now has very little to do with sub-prime mortgages, and even less to do with loaning money to lower income people. This mess really has to do with Credit Deferment Swaps, and the way in which these totally unregulated CDSs allowed companies to increase their debt-to-asset ratio to unheard of levels. The mortgage mess then started the instability, but the CDSs are what caused everyone to get in way over their heads.

Why are CDSs unregulated you ask? Because a law was passed as part of an appropriations bill in 1994. It was a 200 page document tacked on to an 11,000 page bill on the Friday evening before Congress's Christmas break. It passed the Senate on a 97-0 vote. So, go thank your senators for this mess. And if you're going to say, "Who signed it into law? Bill Clinton.", then you'd be interested to know a Republican got the bill tacked on to the appropriations bill. So, basically politicians of all stripes worked together to clusterf**k America.
 
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