Which is tougher to get into, Ivy League (or top 20) UG or med school?

[rowerlauren]

It would be more fair to compare the difficulty of getting into a top 20 UG vs. Med School... except for the fact that we all know that the Med School is way harder.

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[HanginInThere]

Comparing a few schools to an entire class of schools? That's not comparing apples to oranges. It's comparing apples to orange groves.

Yeah, or maybe not. Let's use round numbers, and make quick estimates. Say the top 20 undergrad schools accept an average of 1,000 students each, and say 150 med schools (MD+DO, rounded) accept 100 students each. That means there are somewhere on the order of 20,000 spots to get into a top 20 undergrad school each year, and on the order of 15,000 spots for med school.

Now obviously those numbers are very rough estimates and are probably way off. (I don't feel like hunting for real numbers now, but maybe someone else wants to.) But it looks to me like we're at least talking about the same order of magnitude. We're back to comparing orchards to groves.

How do you like them apples?

 

[Quix]

Apples and oranges. I do interviews for undergraduate admissions, and they are looking for different qualities.

 

[Green Apple]

OP here, I meant to compare Ivy League UG versus med schools in general, not ivy UG versus ivy med schools. Because we all know, being an ivy league means practically nothing when it comes to med schools.

 

[Law2Doc]

What do you think?

Med school. We all know folks form top 20/Ivy schools who don't make it as a premed. So if the same folks could get one, and not the other, it stands to reason that the latter is harder to crack.

 

[SirGecko]

Med school. We all know folks form top 20/Ivy schools who don't make it as a premed. So if the same folks could get one, and not the other, it stands to reason that the latter is harder to crack.

That happens the other way around as well though. (at least as often if not more) I'd say the real argument for med school being harder is the amount of stuff you have to do to get in.

 

[dienekes88]

Yeah, or maybe not. Let's use round numbers, and make quick estimates. Say the top 20 undergrad schools accept an average of 1,000 students each, and say 150 med schools (MD+DO, rounded) accept 100 students each. That means there are somewhere on the order of 20,000 spots to get into a top 20 undergrad school each year, and on the order of 15,000 spots for med school.

Now obviously those numbers are very rough estimates and are probably way off. (I don't feel like hunting for real numbers now, but maybe someone else wants to.) But it looks to me like we're at least talking about the same order of magnitude. We're back to comparing orchards to groves.

How do you like them apples?

Alright, but way more people apply to top-20 schools. So does that make it harder by virtue of the lower acceptance rates? No. It does not, because a lot of capable HYP students have no desire to attend medical school.

Check out these "apples":

42,315 applicants to medical school in 2007
17,759 matriculants in 2007

Harvard class of 2010: 22,754 applicants
Yale class of 2010: 21,099 applicants
43,853 applicants to Harvard and Yale
~3,000 matriculants

We're talking about the same sized applicant pool... Talking about similar levels of self-selection. Is that a fair comparison, though? Not at all.

No point in comparing.

 

[dienekes88]

Med school. We all know folks form top 20/Ivy schools who don't make it as a premed. So if the same folks could get one, and not the other, it stands to reason that the latter is harder to crack.

That's assuming that the person is as motivated for medical school and as knowledgeable of the application process as he/she was for college admissions.

Furthermore, a lot of top-20/Ivy candidates... overreach. I guess that's the nicest way to put it. If those people applied to every single medical school in the United States (because that's the comparison being made: all med schools vs. top-20 UG), and still didn't make it... I would buy your argument.

 

[Margaux1985]

That happens the other way around as well though. (at least as often if not more) I'd say the real argument for med school being harder is the amount of stuff you have to do to get in.

I agree. I didn't decide to apply to any Ivies until after I got my SAT scores back at the beginning of my senior year - six months later, I was in. Med school though, requires at least two years of hard science prep and with a good sprinkling of EC and clinical or research experience, plus the MCAT. All in all, it would take most people at least three years to get to the point of being a viable candidate for med school.

 

[Margaux1985]

Med school. We all know folks form top 20/Ivy schools who don't make it as a premed. So if the same folks could get one, and not the other, it stands to reason that the latter is harder to crack.

I agree that most medical schools are harder to crack than the top 10 or Ivy undergrads, however, this doesn't mean that the people who do go to Ivys are not viable candidates for any medical school. If every Ivy premed applied to every medical school in the country, 90%+ or more would probably get in somewhere. Fortunately, the admissions process take other things into account such as personality, EC, and passion and there are so many other random factors (such as how late one applies and the school's own diversity quotas) that can tip the balance in favor of someone who didn't graduate from an Ivy.

Also, as someone else said, it's not a fair comparison. If everyone who goes to an Ivy is forced to become a premed, the competetive pool would become so much more difficult because there are going to be so many high scoring applicants competing against everyone else. People go to college to get a liberal education and be creative. It's different from med school because med school is basically a specialized training to prepare for a vocation. We're all rather fortunate that a lot of people from the Ivies learn that early on that medicine isn't for them and decide to go into business, law, or academia instead since it leaves open more spots.

 

[flaahless]

I agree that most medical schools are harder to crack than the top 10 or Ivy undergrads, however, this doesn't mean that the people who do go to Ivys are not viable candidates for any medical school. If you were to base admissions to medical school on raw, objective numbers alone (IQ, MCAT), I bet 90+% Ivy premeds would probably get into a program somewhere. Fortunately, the admissions process take other things into account such as personality, EC, and passion and there are so many other random factors (such as how late one applies and the school's own quotas) that can tip the balance in favor of someone who didn't go to a brand name school.

I'll give you MCAT but not IQ. Keep in mind a lot of the students at the Ivies were "bred" for the Ivies and have received the best educations that America has to offer. This will definitely be reflected in the MCAT, but IQ, naah.

 

[MossPoh]

Ignoring the fact that it isn't a fair comparison at all. Medical school is "harder".

I had average grades at best in high school from a small midwest school. I was accepted to 2 top 20 schools and got into every school I applied to in the top 50.

My gpa was like a 3.7 or something. We didn't have weighted gpas, so my honors and extra science classes didn't really count for much. My SAT was mediocre. I just had tons of ECs and great recommendation letters. You tend to have to be the complete package for those top medical schools. You will rarely get in based on your ECs or scores alone. Its a combination. The medical schools just gravitate towards a more self-selective group of applicants. Most people aren't going to waste the money to apply to Wash U, Harvard, Johns Hopkins, etc. if they have a 3.3 and a 28 mcat. Undergrad has tons of people that do it just to apply. (Yes I know medical schools do too...but it never seems as extreme)

 

[dArroway]

I think it is harder to get reservations at Dorsia than either of those

 

[Margaux1985]

I'll give you MCAT but not IQ. Keep in mind a lot of the students at the Ivies were "bred" for the Ivies and have received the best educations that America has to offer. This will definitely be reflected in the MCAT, but IQ, naah.

OK OK, I concede, we get a lot of dumb*** who got in because they managed to do well on one single test (myself included ). Fortunately, if your IQ is low enough and you manage to graduate from an Ivy, you can always try running for president!

 

[seraph524]

Ivies mean nothing.

 

[parto123]

Med school. We all know folks form top 20/Ivy schools who don't make it as a premed. So if the same folks could get one, and not the other, it stands to reason that the latter is harder to crack.

If you use this argument then ivy ug is definitely tougher to get into. As I mentioned, about 85-90% of ivy applicants who apply get into med school. The other way around I doubt the number is even 50%. Most people in medical school simply did not have the SATs to get into ivy colleges. Also, fact that the ivy college med applicant pool has higher average MCATs than actual med students definitely says something.

 

[HanginInThere]

Harvard class of 2010: 22,754 applicants
Yale class of 2010: 21,099 applicants
43,853 applicants to Harvard and Yale
~3,000 matriculants

We're talking about the same sized applicant pool... Talking about similar levels of self-selection. Is that a fair comparison, though? Not at all.

But 22,754 Harvard applicants + 21,099 Yale applicants =/= 43,853 applicants to both.

I have no idea what the total number of students who applied to any Ivy/top 20 is. I also don't know the total number of matriculants. I'm assuming the acceptance rate when you figure it that way is closer to med school rates than your H+Y example. I accept your point that the acceptance rate is higher for med schools, but I'm still not convinced that the difference is as stark as you're presenting.

No point in comparing.

I definitely agree with this. We're throwing around numbers and making comparisons that are meaningless when you consider the differences in applicant pools, motivation, etc.

I'd say the real argument for med school being harder is the amount of stuff you have to do to get in.

Yep, I think this is the right argument. The effort in applying to med school is just so enormously much more than applying to undergrad...

 

[surfstarj]

I think medical school is a lot tougher because I got into med school and didn't even apply to an ivy UG. Therefore, since med school is harder I would've easily been accepted to Harvard. In light of that fact, I am placing Harvard graduate on all my resumes.

i really hope this doesn't go over everyone's head.

 

[seraph524]

ohhh nice one! i didnt even read that!

*goes to change harvard grad on resume*

 

[Ahmed786]

No question it is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to get into a top 20 university then it is to get into ANY med school. The average matriculation GPA for a Med school is ~ 3.6 and MCAT ~ 30. While I dont know the statistics to get into an IVY League (or a top 20 for that matter) I can put money on it that it is at least a 3.8 and a 32+ ACT usually higher which btw, is a 99 percentile equivalent to a 37 on the MCAT (I think?) If you are talking about a top 20 Medical school versus a top 20 undergrad institution then thats a different story...

 

[dienekes88]

But 22,754 Harvard applicants + 21,099 Yale applicants =/= 43,853 applicants to both.

I have no idea what the total number of students who applied to any Ivy/top 20 is. I also don't know the total number of matriculants. I'm assuming the acceptance rate when you figure it that way is closer to med school rates than your H+Y example. I accept your point that the acceptance rate is higher for med schools, but I'm still not convinced that the difference is as stark as you're presenting.

Alright. I was hoping you wouldn't notice, because the numbers don't produce quite as stark a contrast. Let's just say that both school receive all the same applicants (a ridiculous proposition). That makes 23,000 applicants total and 3,000 matriculants. It's equal to 46,000 applicants and 6,000 matriculants. Looks like it's 3x harder to get into Harvard or Yale than it is to get into medical school. WOWWW. What do we now? Give out medals? Who cares?

 

[dc5484]

i would think (harvard, princeton, yale,)>>med skool>>(brown, columbia, penn)>>stanford, mit, duke>>(darthmouth, cornell)>>evertthing else

are you for real? stanford and mit are no easier to get into than harvard princeton and yale.

 

[LadyWolverine]

My God, what is wrong with you people? Who cares?!? Are you seriously so nitpicky that you will debate endlessly over a topic on which you can only speculate? What does it matter, anyway? Go outside and play! Sheesh.

 

[Cegar]

I am going to engineer a new disease specifically to kill all of the posters in this thread who aren't me.

Seriously.

 

[dienekes88]

Most of you people are absolutely ****ing ******ed.

I agree.

Hahaha. Nice.

 

[dienekes88]

My God, what is wrong with you people? Who cares?!? Are you seriously so nitpicky that you will debate endlessly over a topic on which you can only speculate? What does it matter, anyway? Go outside and play! Sheesh.

I have no doubt that this is all to feed someone's... solo-fantasies...

 

[Chrissy]

Went to Penn....having trouble getting into med school. Going to an Ivy made getting into med school harder for me because I fell into that "smart" category but not "smart enough" in comparison to my peers.

I agree though, this question may be interesting, but there is really no comparison here IMO. (meaning neither is harder-both very different).

 

[seraph524]

Reading this thread makes my brain hurt.

 

[Paul3788]

No question it is MUCH MUCH MUCH harder to get into a top 20 university then it is to get into ANY med school. The average matriculation GPA for a Med school is ~ 3.6 and MCAT ~ 30. While I dont know the statistics to get into an IVY League (or a top 20 for that matter) I can put money on it that it is at least a 3.8 and a 32+ ACT usually higher which btw, is a 99 percentile equivalent to a 37 on the MCAT (I think?) If you are talking about a top 20 Medical school versus a top 20 undergrad institution then thats a different story...

Hmm, I have to disagree with you. I studied for my classes the night before, got extra credit, got extra chances, sucked up, and bsed my way into getting a 4.0+ at my high school. Plus you know half of the class getting A's is pretty insane (50%). (At my undergrad only 5% get solid A's) I also studied a few weeks for the SAT and did fine. It was simple.

High school grade inflation, and favoritism is unparralled to college level.

I know many many people that got into Duke, Yale or whatnot, and some of them are geniuses; however, for the most part, a lot of kids are ****ed if they don't adjust from their highschool ways. If I had a nickel for every time someone said "I was so smart in high school, I'm just not trying in college" I would be a millionaire.

Med school, you can't really bs your way into it. Sure some argue state schools have easier classes, but Med Schools know that. And for the most part, Universities don't give out extra credit, bull**** like that. You work for your grades. You don't study the night before and get an A, you fail.

That being said, I have to say that getting into an IVY league is a tossup. Everyone seems to have a 4.0+ and extracurriculars. It just might be luck to get in. However, you have to work hard. period. to get into med school, and most applicants you compete with know that, and do that. So its probably tougher to get into med school compared to bsing your way into a good institution.

 

[172858]

i would think (harvard, princeton, yale,)>>med skool>>(brown, columbia, penn)>>stanford, mit, duke>>(darthmouth, cornell)>>evertthing else

mit? ummm... you forgot cal tech!

 

[TheRealMD]

Med school. Most top 20 med school applicants with even a decent shot at getting in (i.e. not the 3.0/25 kid) can still get flat our rejected by these schools. At least Ivy undergrad applicants with decent scores have a good shot at it.

And then again, there's the true self-selection. A REALLY smart cost-conscious person would avoid Ivy-league schools like the plague if they want to get into med school because having your undergrad paid for by someone else is an even larger prize in the long run. It's the main reason I didn't even bother with them.

 

[What up doc]

are you for real? stanford and mit are no easier to get into than harvard princeton and yale.

i mean these were just my opinions...i got into stanford, princeton and yale (didnt apply to MIT), but got rejected at harvard...so in my opinion these are easier...also, the caliber of the students whom i have spoke to (numerically at least) at harvard on the average trump those at stanford and mit, i a few 3.7, ~1350'ers at stanford and mit (a 1220 2 be exact at MIT from my little known rural high school) and, though im sure they exist, i know none of these types at HYP...

i dunna...i never thot stanford was that hard 2 get into..i thot i was a shoe in the other ivies, however, were much more of a nail biter!

now, medskool? whole different animal..this process SUX! way more than undergrad admissions, way more! u actually have to have a personality....and you have to do BS EC's such as shadowing, which, in reality, show nothing or teach nothing about your desire for medicine, other than your willing to jump thru all the hoops neccesary to get in! at least in hs, u had the time to do sumthing u really and truly loved and could actually be "passionate" about it!

oh, and my SATs got me into all the schools, not even my grades haha...my MCAT will DEFINTELY NOT be doing the same!

 

[flaahless]

Med school. Most top 20 med school applicants with even a decent shot at getting in (i.e. not the 3.0/25 kid) can still get flat our rejected by these schools. At least Ivy undergrad applicants with decent scores have a good shot at it.

And then again, there's the true self-selection. A REALLY smart cost-conscious person would avoid Ivy-league schools like the plague if they want to get into med school because having your undergrad paid for by someone else is an even larger prize in the long run. It's the main reason I didn't even bother with them.

Word. Plus, people out here don't drool over the Ivies as much as the rest of the country.

 

[Lacheln]

i mean these were just my opinions...i got into stanford, princeton and yale (didnt apply to MIT), but got rejected at harvard...so in my opinion these are easier...also, the caliber of the students whom i have spoke to (numerically at least) at harvard on the average trump those at stanford and mit, i a few 3.7, ~1350'ers at stanford and mit (a 1220 2 be exact at MIT from my little known rural high school) and, though im sure they exist, i know none of these types at HYP...

i dunna...i never thot stanford was that hard 2 get into..i thot i was a shoe in the other ivies, however, were much more of a nail biter!

now, medskool? whole different animal..this process SUX! way more than undergrad admissions, way more! u actually have to have a personality....and you have to do BS EC's such as shadowing, which, in reality, show nothing or teach nothing about your desire for medicine, other than your willing to jump thru all the hoops neccesary to get in! at least in hs, u had the time to do sumthing u really and truly loved and could actually be "passionate" about it!

oh, and my SATs got me into all the schools, not even my grades haha...my MCAT will DEFINTELY NOT be doing the same!

I'm sorry, with your f'ed up spelling I can't take anything you say seriously. I know, that's snarky, but I can't help myself - it hurtz my eyeballz.

 

[surfstarj]

i mean these were just my opinions...i got into stanford, princeton and yale (didnt apply to MIT), but got rejected at harvard...so in my opinion these are easier...also, the caliber of the students whom i have spoke to (numerically at least) at harvard on the average trump those at stanford and mit, i a few 3.7, ~1350'ers at stanford and mit (a 1220 2 be exact at MIT from my little known rural high school) and, though im sure they exist, i know none of these types at HYP...

i dunna...i never thot stanford was that hard 2 get into..i thot i was a shoe in the other ivies, however, were much more of a nail biter!

now, medskool? whole different animal..this process SUX! way more than undergrad admissions, way more! u actually have to have a personality....and you have to do BS EC's such as shadowing, which, in reality, show nothing or teach nothing about your desire for medicine, other than your willing to jump thru all the hoops neccesary to get in! at least in hs, u had the time to do sumthing u really and truly loved and could actually be "passionate" about it!

oh, and my SATs got me into all the schools, not even my grades haha...my MCAT will DEFINTELY NOT be doing the same!

Numerical stats of HS kids isn't saying much. with enough $ from parents or scholarship to take a course, any monkey could be trained to score well on the SAT. And majority of high schools' difficulty? Doesn't exist.

 

[neuro1617]

i really hope this doesn't go over everyone's head.

lol.

 

[aaj117]

Haha, then you have the horror stories of 4.0, 40+, good extracurriculars getting into nowhere. Personality plays a big role in medical school admissions. You can be a jackass, look good on paper, and be accepted into a top undergrad.

Definitely disagree- most top undergrads interview too. I know i interview prospective Princeton students and it's been crazy competitive. Even great students with perfect numbers and extracurriculars and amazing interviews get rejected, so they certainly don't take people who come off as a jackass during the interview but look good on paper. Almost everyone who bothers applying looks good on paper.

 

[HoboCommander]

there is so much self-selection for med school applicants these days that it's pointless to compare percentage acceptance rates against the Ivy Leagues, where so many people who don't even have a chance apply to.

 

[aaj117]

My $.02-- i'd say it's about even. It's a lot more prep-work to apply to med school, but without alum in the family, it's equally different. I got into every UG i applied to-- Princeton, Harvard, Yale, MIT, Columbia, CalTech, and some non-top schools. I got into almost half of the medical schools i applied to, probably would have been slightly more than half if i didn't turn down interviews. However, my numbers were much better when i was applying to undergrad than they are for med school. Interviews for most of those undergrads were almost equally as strenuous for me as they were for med school, except back then i didn't feel like i had as much to "make up for". Honestly, i think it was easier to talk/write myself into med school with my deficiencies than it would have been to get into top undergrads if i had one thing missing, like a top GPA.

 

[Cegar]

All right! Finished.

Expect to start bleeding out of your eyes soon.


Except for seraph. Seraph is okay.

 

[VeilofMaya]

Ivy college. This isnt even close. The majority of medical students didn’t or couldn’t get accepted to any ivys for college. Remember, as difficult as med school admissions is, ultimately, around 50% of applicants are accepted.

Not necessarily. Brown's med school accepted only 2% of applicants last year, while they accepted 18% of undergraduate applicants last year. Mind, you the latter statistic is uncharacteristically high for Brown (in fact an all-time record).

 

[VeilofMaya]

Haha, then you have the horror stories of 4.0, 40+, good extracurriculars getting into nowhere. Personality plays a big role in medical school admissions. You can be a jackass, look good on paper, and be accepted into a top undergrad.

There's hope in the world.

 

[brooklynblunder]

here's an alley oop for someone-

you know whats not hard to get into?

(two words, 7 letters total)

 

[randombetch]

What do you think?

Difficulty breakdown:
Top 20 med school >>>>>>> HYP undergrad > any medical school

Getting into HYP was a breeze compared to what I'm doing to get into a good med school.

 

[randombetch]

here's an alley oop for someone-

you know whats not hard to get into?

(two words, 7 letters total)

a mother

 

[ReptarBar]

Difficulty breakdown:
Top 20 med school >>>>>>> HYP undergrad > any medical school

Getting into HYP was a breeze compared to what I'm doing to get into a good med school.

i only partially agree. if youre a naturally smart person (ie you do extremely well in both high school and college), then getting into a top 20 med is way easier than getting into HYP. this is because with med schools, you actually have a set guideline of activities to do (research, volunteer, etc) that will most likely net you an acceptance to a top 20 provided you have the stats to back em up. admissions to HYP ugrad are strange...you dont really know what you should do to get in.

 

[randombetch]

i only partially agree. if youre a naturally smart person (ie you do extremely well in both high school and college), then getting into a top 20 med is way easier than getting into HYP. this is because with med schools, you actually have a set guideline of activities to do (research, volunteer, etc) that will most likely net you an acceptance to a top 20 provided you have the stats to back em up. admissions to HYP ugrad are strange...you dont really know what you should do to get in.

Hmmm I guess you're right.

Revision:
Top 5 med school >>>>> HYP > Top 20 med school
in terms of difficulty getting into.

I feel like there are just so many top 20 schools that it's not nearly as random to get into one of those than to HYP.

 

[ElegantWeapon]

I think medical school is a lot tougher because I got into med school and didn't even apply to an ivy UG. Therefore, since med school is harder I would've easily been accepted to Harvard. In light of that fact, I am placing Harvard graduate on all my resumes.

+1 this made me crack up

 

[afugazzi]

Ivy college. This isnt even close. The majority of medical students didn’t or couldn’t get accepted to any ivys for college. Remember, as difficult as med school admissions is, ultimately, around 50% of applicants are accepted.

This is faulty logic. It is also true that the majority of Ivy league students didn't or couldn't get accepted to any med schools. Just as tons of Ivy league students chose not to apply to med school, so did tons of high schoolers choose not to apply to Ivy leagues... and many of them end up getting accepted to med school.

 

[skeptic29]

am i the only one who initially thought the OP meant ivy league undergrad or ivy league med school?? lol

at any rate, you really cant compare the two (ivy or top 20 UG to medical school in general). you are comparing two vastly different applicant pools.

This.